ritual based wgd

[shroomy2dope]

okay, once before i attempted to discuss the merits of ritual based wgd combo as opposed  to traditional, heavy blue,  bazaar based builds.
However,  I apparently  not present my build with enough evidence, or tact, because the only responses i received were, play bazaar!

So i will now present a revised list, some random goldfish examples, and ideas i would like to discuss with some one who would goldfish the build.


statement:   people try to relate the unfamiliar to what they know.  players assume this about funky builds post board. people relate wgd to dredge, in terms of hate, but the combo is more akin to TPS.

NOTE: this list has been changed several times. this is the revised edition, for convenience sake.
List:

Creatures(5)
4 worldgorger dragon
1 caller of the claw
artifacts(5)
1 black lotus
1 lotus petal
1 mox saphire
1 mox jet
1 mana crypt
enchantments(7)
4 animate dead
2 dance of the dead
1 necromancy
instants(19)
4 dark ritual
4 entomb
3 read the runes
2 whispers of the muse
2 cunning wish
1 demonic consultation
1 vampiric tutor
1 ancestral recall
1 brainstorm
sorcery(7)
4 duress
1 demonic tutor
1 imperial seal
1 windfall
land(17)
4 bazaar of baghdad
4 forbidden orchard
1 polluted delta
4 underground sea
4 misty rainforest
 

sideboard(may drop the transformational plan)
3 sapprazaan legate
1 echoing truth
2 chain of vapor
1 stroke of genius
1 darkblast
1 pact of negation
4 leyline of the void
2 diabolic intent

example:
here are 3 random gold fishes i just drew:
game 1.
play; draw7 orchard, duress, petal, DemoC, saphire, brainstorm, cunning wish
play orchard, tap orchard, play duress, play petal, sac petal, play DemoC for for entomb, play saphire,  tap saphire, play brainstorm, draw; orchard animate, dead, black lotus, topdeck orchard then animate,pass.

draw animate, untap, play lotus, tap orchard, play entomb, sac lotus, play wish for whispers, play whispers, draw library -3 (ancestral proof) ,play second wish for stroke of genius, stroke to win.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
draw; draw8 read the runes, entomb, saphire, tropical island, gemstone mine, careful study, animate dead, wgd
play mine, play saphire, play study, draw entomb, draw dance of the dead, pitch wgd, pitch entomb,pass

draw duress, untap, play trop, tap trop, tap saphire, play animate, win via runes/wish/stroke.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
play; draw7 entomb, careful study, demonic study, underground sea, underground sea, dance of the dead, dark ritual,
play sea, tap sea, play ritual, play DemoT for whispers, play entomb for wgd, pass.

draw entomb, untap, play sea, tap sea, tap sea, play dance, win via whispers/wish/stroke.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

i usually follow this layout :
take a win situation with no duress on turn 1.
if they have UU wait for duress via fetch/draw, or 2 animate spells and 4 available mana.

careful study aggressively even if you don't hit wgd it's not a bad cantrip and no one counters it.
play an accelerated runes if the opportunity presents itself . sacrificing moxen/lands is ok if you have a ritual. you have a good chance of hitting a combo piece with 7 reanimaters and 8 win cons.


notes:
brainstorm used to be 1 bazaar. it was a tutor target for control heavy matches.i found it lacking. maybe it could go back in with one Oona without Oona its a card disadvantage to tutor for it.

i almost want 1 thoughtseize with duress. problem creatures; aven mindscencor, ethersworn cannonist, welder(preboard),  pridemage(in a long game).

i tried only one wish but i found the inclusion of DemoC required a second one.

i've had success with 2 basics, pact of negation, merchant scroll, thoughtseize, mana crypt, over the transformational side board
i switched from dragon to iona/inkwell because my meta boards in cov against wgd.

darkblast was lastly krosan reclamation, but turn 1 welder/crypt became to much of an issue.

mystic tutor and merchant scroll are good cards but the ones i play are better, 8 is the best number of win options, and there's nothing else to cut

chalice of the void and sphere effects make me want to put mogg salvage in the board and maindeck a volcanic island over tropic. a main deck crypt would be good there too.

runes/whispers/study is an impressive draw engine on top of brainstorm, recall, 2 wishes and 4 tutors.

1pact of negation in the side is the answer for misdirection and drains that wait for your stroke. you will have your second wish when you win.


I have a lot more to say about this deck and all of it is good if any one is interested
 

[senpai]

why the whispers of the muse? is there a function that they serve that im missing...

[Shean]

why the whispers of the muse? is there a function that they serve that im missing...

It lets you draw your whole deck when you have infinite mana.

[Scyther]

soooo - this is better than a build with bazaar why?

u need entomb/gorger in hand+discard, a reanimate spell AND something that lets you draw your deck. to an opposing bazaar + reanimate spell ind hand..

or am i  mistaken?

[swawagon]

from your list:
-4 Careful Study
-1 P. Delta

+4 Bazaar
+1 Oona

With this change you now have a much more flexible win. You can more easily get a Dragon in the graveyard for either version of your kill. And if in the yard you can just Animate Dragon, and mill yourself until you yard Oona, gain infinite mana, animate Oona, exile their library, and win. With this configuration you rely far less on Entomb. Careful Study is much like Bazaar except if Careful Study didn't bury a Dragon it was near useless. Bazaar can try again next turn, for no mana, and uncounterably.

And you still have all the same pieces in place for your fast Dark Ritual, Entomb, read the runes / whispers of the muse / cunning wish win.

[shroomy2dope]

this is the problem with bazaar. it's a land. this deck requires black mana to win and a blue mana source once you go infinate and with so many 1 casted spells it really does not like off colored moxen or colorless exceleration.  when i played 4 bazaar i never won on first turn and once in a blue moon won on second turn. it was usually 3-5 turns. this deck wins a typic second with a highly possible first. trust me land, ritual, entomb, animate on first turn is better than bazaar on first turn.

yes this means wgd(4) has to either be entombed(4) or in your hand with a careful study(4) or read the runes(4) or a tutor(4)or you have to have one of those cards(12) and a tutor for the dragon, or just an entomb. really the odds are amazing for pitching dragon turn 1-2.

and yes you have to be holding a reanimate spell(7) or a tutor
and yes you have to be holding a win(8) or a tutor
there are 29 cards that are not numbered above 4 duress, recall, brainstorm and 23 mana sources
a first turn recall puts wgd in the grave too
the odds of drawing/building a winning hand are great
extra combo pieces get treated like this; animates, held for counters, win cards, played for draw, entombs, pitched to study  it's all pretty synergystic

would you like me to fish this and post results to example the dramatic shift in tempo?
-4 Careful Study
-1 P. Delta

+4 Bazaar
+1 Oona
if anything i would just want one of each and don't know what 2 cards to cut or even if i would. i think it's a good altenative victory, if i havn't drawn Oona or consulted it out of my deck.

[Gandalf_The_White_1]

I think you are getting caught up with goldfishing and trying to find the fastest kill, which does not necessarily result in the best direction to take the deck.  

The problem is, Dragon has a fundamental limit on how fast it can consistently go off, because you are essentially looking at a 3 card combo of Dragon+Animate+Combo outlet, and your Dragon has to be in the yard (making it a 4-card como, excluding Bazzar which functions both as discard and outlet, or Entomb which functions both as Dragon and discard).  In any case, you won't be able to consistently assemble a 3-card combo on turns 1/2 against an actual opponent who is disrupting you.  And since your deck has no draw engine, if the game goes on any longer than that, you are in bad shape.

As such, you will never be able to make it as fast as Flash was, for example, which is a 2 card combo.  If you want to win on turn 1/2 with protection, the best thing to do is play Ad Nauseam, since it is more disruptive and less vulnerable to hate, and given the mana to play Ad Naus, it is a 1-card combo. (Dragon is vulnerable to graveyard hate and Pridemage/Seal, Chain, etc.  Note that Enchantment hate affects your transformational board as well as your main game plan.  All Ad Nauseam has to worry is counters and problem permanents, both of which also affect you)

The only type of Dragon build that seems viable to me right now is Minus-6, which plays a more controlling/set up game, using Dark Confidant as a draw engine, and then has a transformational board to turn into Tezz that dodges all of the Dragon hate for games 2/3 (see the following thread: http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=38969.0).

[shroomy2dope]

your right i am trying to win quickly i'm playing combo. i want game 1

my draw engine; careful study(4), read the runes(4), whispers(2), brainstorm, ancestral, backed by 4 tutors and 2 wishes

disruption is a maindeck for my opponent so multiple copies of key components is a maindeck stategy for me.

i don't always transform. sometimes i chain, necro, darkblast for the long game.

by turn 3 i can usually have a duress/second animate for the get countered/then win strategy.

i don't just fish i play test too but this is a clearer example. give me a list i'll play the 2 decks write out each play then post it if that would be beneficial. or i could just pm it to you because it would be long and boaring and this thread would die.

the deck is fast, not like adnaseum or flash, but more consistant.
it has a high level of bombs. you have to counter every reanimate spell i play
players who arn't familiar with this build board out counters for graveyard hate because thats how they combat dredge. that's a mistake when cov comes in.
[quoteThe only type of Dragon build that seems viable to me right now is Minus-6,][/quote] please dont do this unless you have results

[Gandalf_The_White_1]

I don't consider Careful Study and Read the Runes a draw engine, since both are card disadvantage.  They do help you filter cards, but they actually decrease, rather than increase, your overall resources, which does not help you overwhelm the counter wall of a control deck drawing off Dark Confidant.  With only 4 Duress, your list is also rather light on disruption.

Sorry, I simply do not believe that this deck is more consistent than Flash was, which only needed to assemble a 2-card combo in hand, assisted by 4x Merchant Scroll, 4x Brainstorm/Ponder, and 4x Summoner's Pact.  It also had more protection, packing both Fow and Pact of Negation.  There is a reason why Flash and most of those cards were restricted.

please dont do this unless you have results

I linked you a thread about the deck that had a report in one of the posts and a link to another report in the first post.  For other recent t8s with this deck see the following threads:
http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=38883.0
http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=39027.0

Ad Nauseam has also been putting up a lot of results recently:
http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=39237.0
http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=39283.0

Where are your results?

[swawagon]

this is the problem with bazaar. it's a land. this deck requires black mana to win and a blue mana source once you go infinate and with so many 1 casted spells it really does not like off colored moxen or colorless exceleration.  when i played 4 bazaar i never won on first turn and once in a blue moon won on second turn. it was usually 3-5 turns. this deck wins a typic second with a highly possible first. trust me land, ritual, entomb, animate on first turn is better than bazaar on first turn.

would you like me to fish this and post results to example the dramatic shift in tempo?
-4 Careful Study
-1 P. Delta

+4 Bazaar
+1 Oona

Comparatively if Careful Study does not get a Dragon in the yard, undeniably - given your list, it far worse than playing and activating a Bazaar.

Comparing Careful Study with Bazaar of Baghdad one on one from your list, is fair. Careful Study needs one mana, and a blue mana producing land drop to work also. But the key is if it whiffs on getting a Dragon into the graveyard, it did nothing but cost you one mana and a card. Bazaar is a land drop, and lets you see 2 cards and a chance to yard Worldgorger Dragon. So the cards are basically equal at this point:
Bazaar: one land drop, plus 2 cards, minus 3 cards
Underground Sea / Careful Study: one land drop, plus 2 cards, minus 3 cards (Careful Study goes to the graveyard.)

The benefit of Bazaar is the next turn Bazaar sees 2 more cards for no mana, and again Bazaar cannot be countered (shy of Stifle), and provides another opportunity to get a Dragon in the yard.

By running 4 Bazaar and Bazaaring each turn, if necessary, you have an opportunity to see many more cards than 4 Careful Study and can run slightly less mana because of all the cards you draw and discard. You cull down your hand to what you really need, and again have more free opportunities to yard Dragons.

AND with one Oona in the deck, you don't need Read the Runes or Whispers or Cunning Wish in hand, and an Animate spell to win. You just need an animate spell.

Running more moxen will help you get around 'missing' a land drop when playing Bazaar if that really is that significant of an issue.

If Oona is in hand when going off per Bazaar milling yourself method, playing a Mulldrifter offers an opportunity to stop the Dragon loop by animating it instead of the Dragon, with tons of mana in pool, to then hardcast Oona from your hand and winning. Mulldrifter is one blue card that provides card advantage in the set-up phase of the game, and can give you something to animate if there is no Dragon and lots of animate spells in hand - to draw a few cards off.

Shroomy if you don't want to play Bazaars, don't. I like your list and see some advantages (do you mulligan often with it?) but I prefer more disruption, or more draw, or more flexibility, or all of those things; over pure speed in a Dragon list.

[shroomy2dope]

@swawagaon yes i mulligan aggresively. down to five pre-board. 4 or less is to dangerous unless it's post board i didn't transform and i think they have a lelline. them i mulligan til i hit a chain

@gandalf i meant results in my list as opposed to the list you suggest. my list has no results yet because it's still in development. that's why it's posted on the vintage development forum

i out race the counter wall game 1, nuetralize confidant with blast game 2, and build a hand off 2-3 animate spells to win past the counters.

you're right my deck does not compare to flash it is not as consistant as a two card combo. however none of my pieces are restricted in fact most come in variations, so the lack of having to cast scroll/various cantrips helps. i never played flash i was away when people discovered it, but i can tell i would have loved it's pure combo spirit. i think it mirrors my deck in a lot of ways but i should not compare two things that are not the same
you are right about me being light on disruption. i want to make room for thoughtseize
i used to run pact but removed it as a meta based choice

sorry you do not see my draw engine. you're right on study. no card advantage there but more of an advantage than bazaar and people consider bazaar an engine. is that because it's reusable? because i usually cast a blue draw every turn. as for runes well your kind of right. it's not card advantage but if i hit a ritual/lotus i can usually safely sack lands/moxen and keep some cards.

plus consider theese two things. i don't need card advantage as much if i'm about to win. i just need my combo peices.
runes/whispers/study is a poor draw engine, however when they double as relevant spells for your combo the difference is made up for in deck space. it provides me with room to play must counter spells.
  
  anyways, thank you all for your aknowledgment. I do not mean to be difficult
It's just slightly aggravating when you propose a list and at the begining of the thread explain how you have tried this before and only recieved bazaar related comments. so you ask to steer clear of that. then, after all of the time and effort to type this, you only recieve bazaar related comments. so lets do this:

my proposal
i would like to advance this ritual based wgd combo to it's fullest potential following this criteria; remaining 3 or less colors, and not adding more than 1 copy of bazaar/Oona
THEN, i would like to compare it to modern wgd builds, and see which one is more efficient.
so, if any one has criteria based suggestions for improving/moddifying the build please feel free to keep posting.

i would like to thank gandalfthewhite1 and swawagon for their suggestions and patience. and i hope this CHALLENGE of research and development provokes their continued posting. thanks for your time and input guys.

@scyther, senpai, fizix, thankyou for your comments, questions, and responses. i hope you follow the thread.



if any player wants to continue a bazaar vs. study debate i am willing, but use pm as i don't want this thread to die to boredom
 

[swawagon]

no disrespect Scroomy, but if we do not agree on this point...

Comparatively if Careful Study does not get a Dragon in the yard, undeniably - given your list, it far worse than playing and activating a Bazaar.

...we don't have a lot to talk about. My argument is, in many cases, Bazaars more than Careful Study DO improve your decks fast Ritual kill — as well as provide another path to victory, that is less dependent on your 8 blue instants.


However we can discuss the SB.

Oath probably a great option, but the creature I was leaning toward Tinkering and Oathing up is Sphinx of the Steel Wind. Short of Swords to Plowshares and bounce it is probably the best answer to Fish and aggro lists. Sometimes beaters like Tarmogoys (especially in multiples) can get such a jump on you you need the life to survive a suicidal swing from opponents. Sphinx can be Oathed, Tinkered, or Animated. I'd almost consider 2 of them if it were not for Extirpate or Echoing Truth.

Tombstalker is a non Oath beater option I've had some success with in Dragon SBs as well.

[Gandalf_The_White_1]

i out race the counter wall game 1, nuetralize confidant with blast game 2, and build a hand off 2-3 animate spells to win past the counters.

The issue I see with this strategy is that, while it may be effective against counterspells, which are the most common form of disruption you have to worry about, it does not protect you against other forms of disruption against the combo, like Chain of Vapor &c, where they allow your animate to resolve and then you end up losing all your permanents.

Running a lot of animates helps fight through counters, but they can also clutter up your hand, since they are useless unless you have a Dragon in the yard and a combo outlet.  And against decks like Stax, for example, any extra animates are dead weight.  Not running Bazzar is certainly advantageous against Stax, though, because you don't have to worry about Waste Land stopping your combo.

Even if you don't want to play Minus-6, I would suggest trying out Dark Confidant as a draw engine in the deck.  It's true that he is slow, but the card draw he provides gives your deck inevitability, allowing you to build up resources to put together a protected win.  He also provides something to fall back on in case the fast plan doesn't work--you end up drawing 2 cards a turn instead of being in normal topdeck mode.  Basically I am thinking of a Bob-Tendrils kind of approach except with Dragon combo instead of Tendrils.  You can still be fast and explosive, but you also have more consistency and the ability to play the long game, so the deck becomes more flexible and resilient as a result.

Another possible option to consider is running FOW.  Your list already runs 14 Blue cards, so adding 4 Fow and a Ponder (which I think is a good card in the deck anyway) would put you at 19, which is fairly acceptable number (comparable to TPS).  Personally, I think that FOW>Duress, because it is much more useful while on the draw and against Stax and Fish, for example.

I also think that you need at least 1 maindeck answer to problem permanents like those run in Stax or Fish stuff like Pridemage or True Believer.  So I would run either at the least a Chain of Vapor maindeck or something like that you can wish for from the sideboard, because otherwise you are going to find yourselves in situations where you simply can't win because you have no way of getting rid of stuff on the board.

[shroomy2dope]

@gandalf thank you this is what i want

dark confidant. i think i want to try this card post board i want to eliminate oath and set myself up for a long game. i will figure my decks average mana cost
i think that makes this a relevant issue, would you expect wgd to transform if you were on the other side of the table.
confidant may provide some tricks with darkblast too.

chain of vapor. i used to maindeck one chain and one pact then i put in imperial seal over the chain. i realized no one ever maindecks leyline, my meta doesn't play planar void either. however i wished for it once to bounce a chalice for 2.

excess animate spells may seem clunky but i treat them thus, against drain control, keep them in my hand, against all else pitch to study, runes, or topdeck with brainstorm and shufflle. holding an extra animate spell is like a mana drain for 1U. not litteraly but you get my drift. also tricky with ritual people arn't conservative when you only have B open

the reason i switched from force to pact to duress; i like playing my blue spells i feel bad every time i pitch one. it makes me forfeit what little edge i have. then i realized that pact was a lot better sounding than playing. then i realized just 1 was good because i draw my library when i win. that way i catch unsuspecting drain players who counter my win condition. then my meta quit doing that and started countering the animate spell. so i said screw the counters we'll just play duress and call it a day. however i considered 4 FOW and 4PON together, maybe a scroll/mystic/ponder. at one point i even tested post board REB. this deck doesn't like saving it's mana that way. it usually has a relevant sorcery.

i've also considered windfall lately for a draw boost.

and yeah true believer would suck. glad it hasn't hit my meta. i'll beware.

i think i'll try confidant as is before i sample the 8 card pact/FOW. design. i would hate to befuddle the research process with too much new data 

[shroomy2dope]

@ swawagon of course no disrespect none taken and none intended i want floods of feed back. i appreciate all you'll give.

sideboard: are you under the impression that people expect a transformational sideboard from wgd?
if you were to go non-transformational what kind of board would you suggest?
if you went oath would you run krosan rec?
what do you think about gandalf's dark confidant suggestion?

i appreciate your willingness to help even though we don't see eye to eye in some regards.

[Beralt]

While I don't necessarily agree with your choice of no Bazaar's I am going to chime in on your draw engine - Whispers of the Muse - have you considered an Eternal Witness in place of one of these? It makes your extra animates useful and allows you full access to any card in the graveyard.

Your comment to swawagon on transformational sideboards in oath: currently I think the best and most pubilicized build of WGD is something called Minus-6 (mentioned by Gandalf_The_White_1) that features a transformational sideboard that evades the GY hate that most decks pack and gives you a totally different angle of attack.  Since this is becoming more popular, people are expecting more transformational sideboards.  Heck one of the more intriguing speculations (at least for me) is Ad Nauseum, Ichorid, etc decks playing around with sideboarding into HexMage/Dark Depths decks to avoid 2nd game hate.

[Shean]

Firstly, I think that WGD must transform into something, due to the 4-8 GY hate cards that everyone must SB due to Ichorid.  However, with your MD cards, I don't think Oathing up an Iona is enough to seal the deal, but I haven't tested it.

I almost think that with all of your rituals and card drawing, transforming into leyline/helm might be a better idea.  Just a thought.

[Gandalf_The_White_1]

I think that since you are running Forbidden Orchard maindeck people will likely expect the Oath Sb.

Another possible transformation could be into ANT.  You could use the following sideboard:
4 Ad Nauseam
3 Tendrils of Agony
2 Chrome Mox
1 Yawgmoth’s Will
1 Timetwister
1 Memory Jar
1 Tinker
1 Chain of Vapor
1 Stroke of Genius

You take out 4x Dragon, 4x Animate, 4x Dance, 3x Entomb.  Some of the other stuff left in your deck isn't the greatest, but isn't entirely dead, either, except for the 2 Cunning Wish [might want to try modifying the maindeck a bit to accommodate this if you try it out--I think adding confidants would help, for example].  I do not know how well this would work--it requires testing.  I just thought I'd mention it since it seems to be a possibility that could take people by surprise.

[shroomy2dope]

@beralt
thanks for te commets. i used to play wittness in a 2.5 build. it was a good card but with whispers of the muse i have more options. all my blue spells are very versitile. whisper can win if im infinate, draw a topdeck tutor target, or simply draw that last card i need on there eot.  i like witness i just don't see what would go for it. i'm still trying to work in a thoughtsieze and can't find room.

so are you saying if you were playing dragon you would expect a tezz board? or were you just commenting on minus 6 in general. that statement interested me. please post further thoughts.

[shroomy2dope]

@fizix
helm/leyline is a good one that i didn't consider. it doesn't force me to board out the whole combo either. i'll practice this.
but getting to the meat of the subject.
the thing about the transform is i beleive people expect it from wgd. however i don't really play abroad so here is what i'm getting at. if every one expects you to transform to oath because they see your orchard, does it benefeit you to not transform so they overboard against a build you are not playing.
most people don't board in much grave hate around here if they think i'm gonna oath game 2.
is this the picture everywhere?
as a player what would you board in against me after round 1?

[shroomy2dope]

@gandalf
ANT sideboard? i'll try it for a couple of days and see what comes of it. i would probably have to adjust the build to include crypt and off colored moxes. right now i,m trying the leyline idea. then i'm going to test a non- trasformational

4 dark cofidant
1 darkblast
1 pact of negation
3 necromancy
3 chain of vapor
1 stroke
1 whispers
1 mana crypt
1 sol ring
1 wind fall

I know that's 17 cards but some combination of this is what i'm going to try next.   the idea is if they see tells, like forbidden orchard, they'll board against oath. while i really don't transform i just prepare for the long game.

i'm going to test all the possible side board routes suggested here and i'm still open for suggestions

[Shean]

Since you run a lot of 5c lands, Wispmare may be a consideration for an answer to Leyline/Planar Void.

As for the Helm transformation, you really aren't losing anything as far as utility in the SB goes.  You run all the black tutors, so only 1-2 Helm in the SB are necessary.  And Leyline is a good SB card to run anyway.

[shroomy2dope]

@fizix
so far the helm/leyline seems to be on the same page with to oath if not worse. it fails to enchantment hate and bounce with the addition of artifact hate now. it improved my post board against dredge, which is one of my harder matches, but didn't net more games. the only plus was i could still keep dragon cards in. actually i won through the hate with dragon and cov more than with leyline postboard. good suggestion, but it doesn't fit.

whispmare is cool but not for this build. with explosive ritual mana winning the turn i bounce isn't too hard, and bounce covers more options.

next i'm going to try the ANT idea and see what comes of it.

I should really brush up on the combo first. can anyone direct me to a thread?

[Gandalf_The_White_1]

There is a thread here but it's mostly discussing different builds: http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=37945.0

As for a quick run-down:

It's easy to go off with ANT.  You play fast mana, cast it, draw a bunch of cards (usually you stop once you hit 5 or less life so you don't die to flipping another Ad Naus, but if you are desperate and need to win that turn you can keep going), play more fast mana and other stuff up to 9+ Storm, and cast Tendrils ftw.  

Basically off an Ad Naus you need mana, and either Tendrils or a way to find it.  There are some times when you may get unlucky and not draw what you need, and have to pass the turn, but these are generally few.  And even if you have to pass the turn, you can usually use the cards you drew to set up the win next turn.  In testing, I win on the same turn 90-95% of the games I resolve Ad Naus at 15+ life.  I have never lost after resolving Ad Naus in a tournament.

I would suggest you try goldfishing a bunch of games with the Ad Naus plan first to get the feel of it, and I think you will quickly learn what to do.

[swawagon]

For a maindeck answer to odd stuff like True Believer, I strongly recommend some number of Repeal. They can also bounce opposing Dark Confidants or Tarmogoyfs (or anything) to buy time. And they can get Pithing Needles in games 2-3. Plus when you run full moxen they are never dead and you can just basically 'cycle' them. And they can bounce your own dangerous Mana Crypt or a Mox - draw - and offer the opportunity to Bazaar them away, and allowing you to keep other cards. I've also Repealed opposing Tormod's Crypts, they activate it, and then I Necromancy in response to the Crypt activation - and win.

As far as SBs go. I'm intrigued by Ad Nauseum.

Previously I've also used:
1 Tinker
1 Transmute Artifact
1 Sphinx of the Steel Wind
1 Time Vault
2 Voltaic Key
1 Tezzeret
1 Sensei's Diving Top
2 Tormod's Crypt
1 Extirpate
2 Chain of Vapor
1 Thoughtseize
1 Engineered Explosives

[shroomy2dope]

@swawagon
right now chain of vapor is satisfying all my bouncable needs, but i beleive you are right about repeal. if i determine it neccessary to up my bounce count from 3-4, then repeal will beat out echoing truth. (which has it's merits when you play orchard.)
but considering i don't play bazaar needle isn't so much of an issue. but those random G/W decks do throw out a lot of crazy stuff. they're actually starting to infest my meta, because they're cheap and my friends are poor. it's like the bastard child of stax and white weenie.
i have to contend with the following threats:
quasli pridmage
ethersworn cannonist
aven mindscencor
true beliver
swords to plowshares
gaddok teeg
samuri of the pale curtain

thats alot of hate from one deck. but surprisingly i usually still win those matches through speed, darkbast, and c.o.v. however it makes me want a nice shiny foil  pyroclasym every now and then.
 

[shroomy2dope]

@gandalf
thanks for the run down and the link i'll start testing immediately. this seems like a possible for me.

[shroomy2dope]

the deck list has been edited
-1 runes
-1 scalding tarn
-1 flood plain
+2 misty rainforest
+1 wind fall

[shroomy2dope]

Well i've taken some time to test possible sideboards and this is what i've come up with.
the ANT plan is a bust. it just doesn't work for numerous reasons. two functional options appear to be, vault/tinker and a non-transformational build, which i favor. here's the results.

This is the non-transformational list. i like to be unpredictable and change my board from time to time. WGD is what players refer to as a glass cannon and therefore needs to remain unpredictable to retain it's edge.
3 necromancy
2 diabolic intent
2 chain of vapor
1 echoing truth
1 darkblast
1 pernicious deed
1 bazaar
1 caller of the claw
1 whispers of the muse
1 stroke of genius
1 pact of negation

fish plan
+1bazaar                -1 entomb
+1caller                  -1carefull study
+1deed                  -1 windfall
+1darkblast             -4 duress
+1echoing truth
+2chain of vapor

caller of the claw works over Oona here for multiple reasons.
it can be reanimated or hardcast to produce the desired effect.
the creture/bazaar plan undrmines ethersworn cannonist
2/2 bearsbeats true beleiver
caller costs 3 to cast which is teeg proof
all of this means i can save my bounce for samuri of the pale curtain or pridemage.


oath plan
+2 diabolic intent                -2 dance of the dead
+2 chain of vapor                -2 carefull study
+1 necromancy                  -1 entomb
+1 darkblast                         -1 windfall
+1 echoing truth               -1 mana crypt
+1 pernicious deed             -1 whispers


this match is awsome for me post board. diabolic intent is an extra DT that helps regulate the token count.
darkblast has great synergy with WGD
the others are obvious
also consider i play orchard too. the original token equalizer



stax plan
by far my hardest match
+1darkblast                               -1entomb
+1pernicious deed                      -1dance of the dead
+1echoing truth                         -1 windfall
+1necromancy                          -1demonic consultation
+1bazaar                                   -1 read the runes
+1caller of the claw                    -1 manacrypt
+2chain of vapor                         -2carefull study


darkblast stops welder/crypt lock
deed knocks out chalice, welder, moxen, and maybe just maybe, a sphere or two.
truth definately for chalice and sphere
chain of vapor is to screw what ever is screwing me the most
necromancy is chalice resilliancy
bazaar/caller is chalice resilliancy


anyone know of a reanimatable creature that wipes artifacts off the board? i would greatly appreciate it

drain plan

                                    -1 entomb
+3necromancy                -3 dance of the dead
+2chain of vapor              -1 crypt



this match up is fair.
pact of negation is the mvp. greedy drain playerslove to let me go infinate with an orchard in ply. my wish/pact plan catches 'em like flies and honey

tps and dredge are still on the drawing board.


summary:
i wish i had more space to devote to stax. like recalls and basics. beyond that wheel of fortune, necropotence, and thoughtseize for counter/trap removal would all be great


please give suggestions and commentary.   thanks!

[swawagon]

Versus Oath
With you having access to Red in your manabase, you may want to consider 2-3 Greater Gargadon as a better uncounterable way to fight their Tokens, plus it isn't a too bad of an animation target.

Versus Stax
Basic lands and Chain of Vapor should often be enough to beat Stax. It's usually not much a problem.
Pithing Needle naming Wasteland, Stripmine, or Welder could shore this up cheaply too. With a drawn out game locked out of much of your mana, Greater Gargadon might not be soo bad here either.
Again Stax is another matchup where Bazaar is better than the often sideboarded out Careful Study, because it digs for free, repeatedly.

3 Necromancy in the board eats up a lot of valuable slots. I'd like to see some number in the main, and perhaps all animation affects removed from the board for other material.