[Card discussion] Kor Skyfisher

[Guli]

Here is the image:



First time i saw the card I didn't think much of it. However when I made a casual Kor theme deck with some equipments I was very satisfied with this 2/3 flying utility creature.

With a mox, it is a 2/3 flyer for and it enables you to play another spell or leave mana open for things like stifle, spell pierce,.... The 'drawback' is not negative with artifact acceleration. It actually provides acceleration. Also in a deck with a low land count you can get away with 2/3 lands and this Kor soldier let's you replay a land you bounced to get 2 mana out of it. Also you can respond to wasteland or spot removal if you are a vial player.

Cards like Jotun grunt, Icatian Javelineers,Chalice, Pithing Needle, Tin Street Hooligan and Meddling Mage are examples of synergy.

Exalted is becoming more popular and we all know how important the flying+exalted can be in the mirror especially with a 2/3 body.

I am curious of anybody else tried out this card. Maybe I didn't play enough games to really feel the drawback, but until now the bounce effect was only GREAT.

[Blue Lotus]

It would be nice to drop chalice at 0, return it play your mox, and replay the chalice. 

These ideas are problematic though because you are talking about mox synergy in a deck that most certainly will want null rod.  Plus there are only 5 mox (if you run all of them) so this is really a two card combo that generates 1 mana.

[Nefarias]

It would be nice to drop chalice at 0, return it play your mox, and replay the chalice. 

These ideas are problematic though because you are talking about mox synergy in a deck that most certainly will want null rod.  Plus there are only 5 mox (if you run all of them) so this is really a two card combo that generates 1 mana.

It doesn't actually gnerate mana, or "actually provide acceleration" as the original poster claimed. You can't actually net mana from this, even if you return a Mana Crypt. You just alleviate the drawback some. There are theoretical situations where a Mox is your only source of a certain color, and you need two of that color, so it works to provide mana in that respect, but it doesn't generate mana like say GushBond would.

I'm really not familiar enough with the deck to really weigh in on whether or not this is good, but if you have to add cards to your deck that you normally wouldn't play (Javilineers, etc.) just to make it good then it's usually not worth it. There's a balancing act between power and synergy, but here I don't think that the loss in power in having to dull down the deck is worth the increase in synergy. I don't think resetting "Name a card" things is usually very good, unless like they already pitched Tinker to Force or something because it was named.

As far as air battles go, I think I'd rather pay one (or even a virtual two) more and just have Mindcensor. If the argument is that they can't block Flyers, 'Censor beats for just as much and has some relevance on the game. I don't play the deck, but from what I understand creatures that "just attack" are the least valuable, and that's basically all this guy does, even if it does so efficiently. Current Vintage creature decks have to constantly disrupt; efficient attackers aren't really the game plan like they may have been a few years ago.

And let's not forget the times where you don't have a Mox, and playing this guy on turn two actually costs you a mana next turn.Obviously in that situation you just don't play him if you need the mana, but that's just another reason why he's underwhelming: in oreder for a "situational" card to be playable, the situations in which it is played have to be pretty phenomenal, and even under ideal conditions this guy is just good, not great.

[Guli]

It would be nice to drop chalice at 0, return it play your mox, and replay the chalice. 

These ideas are problematic though because you are talking about mox synergy in a deck that most certainly will want null rod.  Plus there are only 5 mox (if you run all of them) so this is really a two card combo that generates 1 mana.

It doesn't actually gnerate mana, or "actually provide acceleration" as the original poster claimed. You can't actually net mana from this, even if you return a Mana Crypt. You just alleviate the drawback some. There are theoretical situations where a Mox is your only source of a certain color, and you need two of that color, so it works to provide mana in that respect, but it doesn't generate mana like say GushBond would.

I'm really not familiar enough with the deck to really weigh in on whether or not this is good, but if you have to add cards to your deck that you normally wouldn't play (Javilineers, etc.) just to make it good then it's usually not worth it. There's a balancing act between power and synergy, but here I don't think that the loss in power in having to dull down the deck is worth the increase in synergy. I don't think resetting "Name a card" things is usually very good, unless like they already pitched Tinker to Force or something because it was named.

As far as air battles go, I think I'd rather pay one (or even a virtual two) more and just have Mindcensor. If the argument is that they can't block Flyers, 'Censor beats for just as much and has some relevance on the game. I don't play the deck, but from what I understand creatures that "just attack" are the least valuable, and that's basically all this guy does, even if it does so efficiently. Current Vintage creature decks have to constantly disrupt; efficient attackers aren't really the game plan like they may have been a few years ago.

And let's not forget the times where you don't have a Mox, and playing this guy on turn two actually costs you a mana next turn.Obviously in that situation you just don't play him if you need the mana, but that's just another reason why he's underwhelming: in oreder for a "situational" card to be playable, the situations in which it is played have to be pretty phenomenal, and even under ideal conditions this guy is just good, not great.

What a bunch of irrelevant information.

Acceleration?
Land/Sapphire -> Skyfisher gives you a solid start. You have a 2/3 flyer on turn 1 and 1 mana for stifle or spell pierce
Land/Emerald -> Skyfisher gives you the ability to play something like Wild Nacatl or Root Maze.
Land/Jet -> Skyfisher opens up possibilities with duress.

It is pretty solid to get a 2/3 body with evasion early on AND still have mana to disrupt.

Those are early game finesses of the card.

deck?
What deck? There is no deck. I didn't speak of any deck. I also didn't post a deck. The title clearly shows that this thread is opened to discuss a single card.

No mox?
There is absolutely no point in playing this guy on turn 2. You are most likely going to play something like Jotun Grunt and use the ability of Skyfisher to reset grunt a couple turns later.

I find every 2 drop with an ability and a 2/x body interesting to look at. In this case it has 2/3 which will be relevant against aggro, pyroclasm/massacre, darkblast... The drawback is very easy to play around, and on top of that pretty easy to convert into an advantage. Why is this bad? Or better, why is it not good enough?

In all honesty the arguments Nefarias presented are weak. No personal offense intended.

[Blue Lotus]

deck?
What deck? There is no deck. I didn't speak of any deck. I also didn't post a deck. The title clearly shows that this thread is opened to discuss a single card.

So you're suggesting storm combo play this card?  All the situations you listed are linchpins of a null rod deck.

No mox?
There is absolutely no point in playing this guy on turn 2. You are most likely going to play something like Jotun Grunt and use the ability of Skyfisher to reset grunt a couple turns later.

So without an ON COLOR mox to a THIRD SPELL in your opening hand, this is dead until at least turn three.  Which is when mindcensor should come down.  This card is garbage.

[Guli]

It could be garbage. But I am not convinced yet.

[CorwinB]

KSF certainly isn't garbage in Standard, where it as multiple applications such as in the recent Boros landfall deck, but I don't think it's up to Vintage level. While its P/T ratio is pretty good, it lacks the uber-fast clock of Goyf, the card advantage of Selkie or the disruption provided by Pridemage or Mindcensor. That's a bit like Kird Ape.

[islanderboi10]

KSF + Trinket Mage is pretty nutty.  I can see this in a U/W Fish or Bomberman deck of sorts.  It's also pretty cool to attack in, then play KSF to replay a blocker. Though combat Damage isn't really used in vintage.  I can see this card being really explored.

[RecklessEmbermage]

Fun with ether vial, atleast in aggro vs aggro, when saving creatures and other permanents becomes relevant.

Particularly fun with tidehollow sculler (stack card-stealing effect -> bounce).

I have problems seeing how this can be truly good (it looks good in a low-powered meta, where null-rod in the main isn't compulsory and interactive decks are abundant), but I'm certainly going to try it out.

[Blue Lotus]

Particularly fun with tidehollow sculler (stack card-stealing effect -> bounce).

Just to note this doesn't work, skyfisher is sorcery speed.

[median]

you could always use it to bounce your own rod, maybe in a new Bomberman creation. mist bind clique coupled with it might be good, I'm not sure about in vintage but it might be fun.
i wish this guy had flash, then i could use him with SDT.

[Joblin Velder]

Particularly fun with tidehollow sculler (stack card-stealing effect -> bounce).

Just to note this doesn't work, skyfisher is sorcery speed.

He was talking about using it with Aether Vial.

[Guli]

He is indeed a kird ape with wings at the least. He isn't very abusable yet though. With vial he becomes strong but it is hard to compete with vial lists these days.

Trinket mage is a very interesting line of thinking.

I was trying sculler/skyfisher the other day. Using the trick is hard to pull of. Most of the time you want to cast sculler asap. But it DID happen occasionally and then it was strong.

For now i think full acceleration should be run alongside this guy to get him down turn 1 and then play another spell. Also when you topdeck him you can safely play him with all the moxes. I believe he should be used as a flying kird ape to start pounding away life early on. Maybe the evasion could be abused as well with equipments and aura's.

Tarm isn't always big. Learned this the hard way, a lot of people can verify this. But Tarmogoyf will have a stronger body overall that is not being questioned.

How about Flying Fish and Moat? Clique works well with this guy, maybe spellstutter can be used too. Bitterblossom also sounds nice, can be bounced when life becomes crampy.

[Blue Lotus]

He was talking about using it with Aether Vial.

Oh I didn't realize we were in the world of three card discard combos

[Bone]

Garbage

I see this as a not-optimal creature in UW/UWB/UWG/GW fish. There are too many better cards (Meddling Mage, Jotun Grunt, Cursecatcher, Goyf, Mindsencor, Pridemage etc) so I don't think this card will see any play at all in this format. In standard and maybe extended it is competive but not in vintage with all  those better options.

[Guli]

Garbage in the context of 'there is something better'.

One could conclude that cards like Savannah lion and Kird ape are no longer playable in vintage. I know that there is a difference between  
2/1 and 2/3 flying that could potentially cost  . However, even then there is no room.

Running full acceleration is contradictory to any mana denial strategy because null rod is your strongest card in those archetypes. Since the effect isn't powerful enough, hence you have to see this card as a flying kird ape, going for heavy mana denial while you sneak this guy in seems the only viable way to make the card 'playable'.

I do have one more idea though. Run full acceleration alongside null rod/wasteland/strip. You can bounce any artifact mana when you play Skyfisher after turn 1 and use those 'dead' cards (thanks to null rod) to fuel things like bazaar. Add in Loam's for additional fuel for bazaar and strip lock. I agree that it is hard to fit Kor Skyfisher in our modern fish builds. If cat's and apes were viable we would play them no? Or does nobody try it anymore? I definitely don't, not even in my test games.

Thing is Skyfisher seems like an improved ape/lion/puppy to me especially if you run full set of mox. So if you can sneak the card in, and play a heavy disruption game he might go all the way. Tarmogoyf could be used as well to deliver a couple of big blows but I am sure the Skyfisher will make Tarmogoyf even more powerful because of the damage already done BEFORE tarm is really huge. That being said I find it extremely challenging to design a concrete deck around these themes.