TheManaDrain.com
September 09, 2025, 09:32:27 am *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News:
 
   Home   Help Search Calendar Login Register  
Pages: [1] 2
  Print  
Author Topic: [REPORT] Almost making top 8 with TPS in Hengelo 12-13-2009  (Read 7033 times)
Marske
Mindsculptor
Full Members
Basic User
***
Posts: 1209

Go beyond Synergy and enter Poetry

marius.vanzundert@live.nl marske1984
View Profile WWW
« on: December 13, 2009, 06:26:07 pm »

The Event
Results and breakdown

I get up really friggin early around 7 o'clock so I can make it to Breda in time as I'm meeting the rest of the crew. After first meeting up with Dennis (Waikiki) and introducing myself as it's his first time traveling with our little band of misfits. I see Martin (Art Ov War) walking towards us. After a few minutes I see Arjan (Zieby) driving up in a different car then he usually drives. I ask him what's up with it and he says he's borrowed his wife's car, which is ultimately cool because now we have some tunes (his car doesn't have a radio) during the 2 hour trip. We stand around talking a bit until Bart (Ancestral_Recall) finally arrives and we set off for our drive.

About half way through the drive we notice the GPS isn't charging and it dies because it really needed some power, we shrug and say we'll manage. Minutes pass while we share our views on women, religion, magic and roadtrips when we notice the signs on the side of the road are indicating we're reaching Germany. We all suffer a small bit of shock (Hengelo is on the boarder with Germany so we're not that far off) we manage to get one of our Iphones to fill in for the GPS. After getting out of Germany we head in the right direction again with an extra half hour added to the already long trip. We still arrive 20 min before registration ends so we sign up and get ready. I think there where about 40+ players which means we're going for 6 rounds which is fine with me. I didn't note my starting hands as they are generally not so interesting I'll try to walk you guys through the entire event and give an impression about the atmosphere.

Here's the list I ended up turning in:

The Perfect Storm
As suggested by: Marius van Zundert

Creatures         
1   #   Darksteel Colossus           

Spells     
1   #   Ancestral Recall     
1   #   Brainstorm     
2   #   Cabal Ritual     
1   #   Chain Of Vapor     
4   #   Dark Ritual     
4   #   Force Of Will     
1   #   Gifts Ungiven     
1   #   Fact or Fiction     
1   #   Misdirection     
1   #   Mystical Tutor     
1   #   Rebuild     
1   #   Vampiric Tutor     
1   #   Necropotence     
1   #   Yawgmoth's Bargain     
1   #   Demonic Tutor     
4   #   Duress     
1   #   Grim Tutor     
1   #   Imperial Seal     
1   #   Mind's Desire     
1   #   Ponder     
1   #   Tendrils Of Agony     
1   #   Time Walk     
1   #   Timetwister     
1   #   Tinker     
1   #   Yawgmoth's Will     
1   #   Merchant Scroll     
1   #   Memory Jar           
           
Manasources           
1   #   Black Lotus     
1   #   Lotus Petal     
1   #   Mana Crypt     
1   #   Mana Vault     
1   #   Mox Emerald     
1   #   Mox Jet     
1   #   Mox Pearl     
1   #   Mox Ruby     
1   #   Mox Sapphire     
1   #   Sol Ring     
2   #   Island     
2   #   Swamp     
4   #   Polluted Delta     
1   #   Bloodstained Mire     
2   #   Underground Sea     
1   #   Tolarian Academy

Sideboard           
1   #   Massacre     
1   #   Sadistic Sacrament     
1   #   Tormod's Crypt     
1   #   Extirpate     
1   #   Ravenous Trap     
1   #   Slaughter pact     
1   #   Yixlid Jailer     
2   #   Hurkyl's Recall     
3   #   Dark Confidant     
1   #   Pithing Needle     
1   #   Island     
1   #   Swamp

I share a table with Arjan, Dennis (XdeckX) and Benjamin (BBG), so after we joke around and share some harsh trashtalking during the seatings we get ready for round one.

Round 1 Barry Saitink - ANT
I know Barry from previous events in Hengelo and Breda but I haven't seen him in a while, he says this is his first event in a while and I'm rather excited to start the event off. I have no clue what Barry will be playing so this will be exciting.

Game 1
I lose the die roll but I remember I fanned open a hand with a Force, Blue card and some other goodies among then a Tinker so my plan seems set. I'll be trying to tinker which means I can go for DSC if he's playing some aggro deck or Jar if I draw something nutty. My nerves begin to tingle when he opens with a Badlands and my first thought was he was running B/R Stax, his next play puts him solidly on ANT as he plays a Chrome mox pitching a blue card and I get nervous because I really hate beginning events with a loss and ANT is not a really great matchup.

He goes all in on a turn 1 AN which I force, he pacts so it resolves, he starts flipping and hits 2 AN's, Hurkyl's, Duress a Ritual and some land + Chrome mox. He can't combo this turn so he ends up playing duress (Grabbing my Tinker) and passes. I draw a blank card and pass the turn. During his upkeep I remind him of the pact trigger which he can't pay and we start game 2.

Game 2
He needs to mull to 4 and I keep a 5 hander which contains a ritual, a mystical, duress, Force, Delta. Imagine my surprise when he starts and passes without doing anything. I draw a card (swamp I think) then on his end step I mystical for Ancestral resolve it during my turn (it gave me DT, Duress, Ritual) and that's all she wrote as I tutor for Sadistic Sacrament and he scoops because I remove all his tendrils.

Phew, I beat my first bad matchup nice.

Games 2-0 Matches 1-0-0

I start scouting the area and see Arjan and Martin get paired together, sucks to drive so many miles to get paired with a friend but it happens. Arjan is playing European Storm and Martin is playing Sadistic Suicide. Arjan manages to steal the win. When talking with Guus and Duncan we realize the entire RND team has won. I do my pre-game ritual (Drink a bottle of water, refill it, take a bathroom break, check sideboard) and notice the pairings for round 2 are up. Feeling confident I look at the pairings and see Tristan Krap, who's just started getting back into Vintage. I know from his talks on the Dutch boards he's intrested in playing Shops so I put him on that.

Round 2 Tristan Krap - WS Aggro
We introduce ourselves and he noticed who I am, he's not phased by it (luckily) and I notice Arjan is sitting next to me together with BBG, which means almost the entire Mod staff of the dutch boards is sitting at the table a funny coincidence.

Game 1
I win the die roll and keep a hand with a tinker, force, Rebuild, some other stuff. I get a turn 2 tinker to resolve to oppose his turn 1 Shop, mana vault, sol ring, Karn. I beat he chumps with Karn (and takes 3) I pass he plays a Masticore (Old-School tech) I untap and swing again he chumps, I take an even larger chunk of his life, He untaps, cast triskelion, I swing, take a chunk and pass. He draws blank and scoops it up. Nice, lets test if my boarding plan works.

Game 2
He opens with Welder and a lot of artifacts, I keep a rock steady hand with 2 basics a fetch 2 confidant, tinker, Mana Vault.
I open with Basic, Mana vault he returns with a Karn, I rip a DT from the top and cast it to find Pithing Neelde (put it on Welder) with the mana left I tinker for the big dude. Next turn I drop a confidant and ride both hom to victory. Who said DSC didn't work Wink

Games 4-0 Matches 2-0-0

So I've beaten 2 of my worst matchups in the first 2 rounds, this is turning out to be a good start to the event. I haven't lost a single game

I get paired with Duncan's brother and I know he's playing MUD as he's borrowed about half of the important cards from me. I feel confident in my ability to beat this matchup once more together with my boarding plan I'm fairly sure I can do it.

Round 3 Kevin Keijzer - 9 Sphere MUD

Game 1
I lose the die roll and he opens rather aggresive using Tangle wire to keep my mana tied down. As game one is a fight for mana and game 2 is an all out war I'm prepared to fight on my terms. He does a great job in keeping me down and gets a Karn on the table which he uses to beat me down. Damn my first game loss. Ah well, I don't expect to be winning a lot of pre board matches against this deck anyway. He jokes he just beat me down with my own Karn and I declare I want it back to give him an illegal deck. We both laugh at that idea and continue boarding.

Game 2
He gets turn 3 Jesters Cap + Activation. (Removing Tendrils, Will, DSC) I can still win as Confidant and bounce give me a shot. After he resolves a Metalworker and Trisk I scoop it up.

Games 4-2 Matches 2-0-1

Dammit, unfortunately it didn't go down the way I hoped, ah well nothing is lost as I'm still in contention for a top 8 spot.

Round 4 - Martin Nuijten Sadistic Suicide
Oh man now I get paired with Martin who's at the same standing as I am. Martin is a former team member and he's coming of a high roll top 4 finish with TPS during the Dutch Vintage Championship. He's playing Sadistic Suicide today so no TPS mirror. But this is even worse, not only does he play the full 4 Sacrament he has also added Duress, Hymn, Null Rod, Dark Depth's + Hexmages meaning he has enough disruption and a very fast clock. This is going to be a real test.

Game 1
He gets enough gas to over run me with confidant beats, I'm kept busy with trying to stop sacrament from resolving.

Game 2
I get a turn 1 tinker into DSC but he gets to Edict it on his turn. We fight back and forth for control and I eventually end up with a huge Yawg. Will fueled Tendrils of Agony to the dome.

Because there are only a few minutes left in this round we decided not to start game 3 so this ends in a draw. To be honest I'm just glad I survived, because his deck is a nightmare to face. Getting away with just a single point is good enough for me as we're still both in contention for the top 8.

Games: 5-3 Matches 2-1-1

I feel a little lightheaded at the huge amount of rough matches I've faced today as I've not had a real easy match. All games have been played on a knifes edge, which is why I love Vintage and TPS so much, you're on high alert the entire time as even the smallest mistake will costs you the game.

Round 5 - Nick Venderbosch 4c Keeper
Nick says he's not played a Vintage match in over 5 years. He's standing at the same spot as me. I notice Onno (LennoxLewis86) sitting near me and I ask him about his results and he says he's in the same spot as me. Onno is playing a similar TPS list and has been hounding me for explanations and lessons regarding the deck. It's great to see him doing so well with the deck.

Game 1
I lose the die roll and get the surprise of my life when my opponent opens: Tundra, Mox Diamond (Pitching Wasteland), pass... I cannot think of a deck that plays this combination of cards so I put him on a homebrew list. Interesting, he's sitting at a solid result so the deck must be pretty decent. My hand has enough gas to push through a win, I duress him seeing a Force, Ponder, Merchant Scroll, some lands, I take the force. I use a ritual to cast my Mana vault, Use the mana vault and island I dropped to play tinker, Nick Comments he's got 2 turns and sighs about how big Colossus is. I tell him no such luck as I plan on killing him this turn. I drop Lotus on the board and he looks confused, I use my remaining Vault mana and a second Ritual to cast Grim tutor (B floating) for Yawg. Win and that's all she wrote.

Game 2
I remember this game took some setup with both of use exchanging Duress and Drains and me bouncing his turn 0 Leyline. He ends up Draining my Mystical tutor, he then tries to resolve a mind twist (WTF old-school !!  Very Happy) and I imagine the evil grin on my face revealed my play to him as he looked on in utter disgust ...... I Misdirect (pitching Scroll) and tell him to wreck his own hand instead, leaving him with no cards in hand. I have an untapped Mox Sapphire and decide this is a good time to resolve my Ancestral targetting me... I untap and go nuts taking the game with a lethal Tendrils to the dome.

I ask if I can see his deck as it had some intersting stuff going on and I notice he's playing old school 4c Keeper with some updates. How awesome, I compliment him on his brave deck choice and he says he hates facing storm.

Games 7-3 Matches 3-1-1

So I'm not in yet as I still got to play the last game, I'm at 10 points now but if I win the final match I'm easily in the top 8 with 13 points. I walk around the room and notice Arjan is going undefeated. Duncan is going strong into the top 8 and both are already set. How awesome the entire European part of team RND can make top 8. The pairings go up and It's Arjan vs Guus, they decide to ID. So it's done, 3 members of RND are already set to play in the top 8 and I'm eager to join them. I look at the pairings and it's a dream match.... Onno Versluijs has the exact same amount of points, we're going to duke it out for top 8. My teammates tell me I got this as I helped Onno with TPS a lot and I've got more practice in playing the mirror. Looks like I'll get my revenge for the asskicking he gave me a while back with Grim Long.

He's excited to be facing me as well as he's eager to test his skills. I tell him it's really a die roll.

Round 6 Onno Versluijs The Perfect Storm
I feel fairly lightheaded, missing my normal ritual (no bath room break, fresh water etc) and since it's well past dinner time my stomach begins to growl. I grab a piece of fruit (never leave home without it) to get rid of the hunger. I curse myself for chatting with some people and not keeping my routine in check as I'll most likely pay for it now. Duncan, Guus and Arjan gather around along with some others to watch this battle of the storm decks as we're starting to draw a crowd filled with people that dropped but stayed to watch.

Game 1
I end up botching this, I *blink* to soon, we're both very cautious as the TPS mirror comes down to who blinks first and who gets to resolve a bomb. This is especially true for the mirror match pre-board as it's a real struggle. I duress his will, get his twister in the yard, then I Tinker for Memory Jar. I knew his Jar hand had only Tinker for gas and he'll feel most tempted to tinker DSC against my 2 card Jar hand. Which luckily for me already contained a chain of Vapor. I decided to go for glory and Onno comments, No Guts no Glory, I resolve my own twister and end up with a shitter of a hand giving me 2 Force, Cabal and lands. I need to pass and he ends up winning very cleanly with his next few draws. The sad part is, I knew his jar hand had a Chain of vapor and a tinker, what I didn't know is he drew the colossus as well. My Jar put his Tendrils in hand..... if I just passed without playing Twister he would have been left up to dry with no real shot to win this as I can easily out topdeck him in that case.

Not keeping to my routine did break me up as I missed the fact his Will and Twister were already in the yard. I board and start game 2.

Game 2
I resolve a turn 1 Necropotence... surprised by the lack of a counter I draw around 9 cards going down to 11. During his turn he also tries to play Necro. I entertain the idea of Forcing it as I have double force. But looking at the rest of my hand I'm betting he'll most likely also necro agressively to keep up with me. I drew 2 dark rituals, Ancestral, Force, Force, Ponder. Tendrils off necro so if I let necro resolve I can probably win with a small tendrils. Onno draws 7 cards (going down to 12 as he fetched) and I untap and mini tendrils him to death. Exciting, I feel I'm back into this game after the horrible punt the first one.

Game 3
I have to mulligan to 5, Keeping a hand with force, Mystical, Ancestral, some mana and a swamp. No blue mana though but I don't want to mulligan going down to 4 cards as that most likely will be my end. I'll just have to draw into a blue source in the next few turns. We setup a few turns, Onno resolves a FoF getting 2 Rituals, Sol Ring, Time Walk, Merchant Scroll. I split the mana and spells apart and he takes Time Walk and Scroll. I have Force and a blue card so I'm not to worried. Onno untaps and draws a card, puts DT on the stack it resolves, he merchant scrolls for Force of Will, Dark Ritual..... puts Sadistic Sacrament on the stack.... OMG this is not happening I think to myself.... I force he forces back and I extend my hand as Onno procedes to go into top 8.

The last 3 games played out as an epic struggle with both parties playing some very awesome games. I tell Onno that if somebody were to keep me out of top 8 today I couldn't think of anybody better them him as he plays my list and I helped him out a lot in getting to know the deck. He says he's gratefull and will take home the shop.


Games 8-5 Matches 3-1-2

Conclusion
So I miss top 8 because I lost an epic struggle, which could have gone eitherway. If I hadn't punted game 1 against Onno I might of even won the entire thing. I curse myself inside for not keeping to my routing before the final important round as it clearly played a part in me being sharp enough to pull off a win. I liked the overall performance of my deck and sideboard and I'm still rather glad with my finish, performance and play as I didn't really make a lot of mistakes during the event. The fact that the rest of my team made top 8 is a sweet deal and I finally grab something solid to eat as I settle down for the top 8. I won't give you guys the details as the rest of my Team will most likely be sharing them in their own reports. However, I do want to say this.

WE TOOK THAT SHIT DOWN!!

It ended with Arjan (Zieby) vs Duncan (Duncan obv;) and Guus (Mantis) vs Onno (LennoxLewis86) After Duncan beat Arjan in an epic battle in which GWSx proved a bit stronger then European Storm and Guus made Onno's life a living hell by having turn 1 Trinisphere BOTH games. Duncan and Guus end up splitting the finals. So Team RND had 3 people in top 8 and 2 in the finals. Which makes me very happy with our teams overall performance. I'll keep working on TPS as it's proven to be a very solid contender today, it's a shame I didn't make it but I'll say this, I'm sure I'll get there next time !!

Props and Slops!

Props
- Duncan and Guus for being such Juggernauts
- Arjan for playing European storm or Drain Tendrils without Drains OR Tendrils Wink
- Onno for being a badass pimp and overall nice guy
- The orginisation for being awesome and putting such prizes on the line.
- Rudy for finding some of the stuff I was missing.

Slops
- Me for not keeping to my routine and punting
- The GPS for running out of Battery
- Germany for having stupid freeway exits

The Breakdown
Here's the event breakdown, interesting to see both TPS decks making / close to top 8 and the lack of Time Vault / Key in the top 8. The top 8 was dominated by Tendrils decks as we had a TPS, GWSx, Drain tendrils list representing.

Combo (2)   
Belcher   (2)

Tendrills   (9)
TPS *   (2)
ANT   (3)
Grim Long   
Freezing Bob *   
GWSx *   
DrainTendrills *

Oath (2)   
Iona Oath   
Dragon Oath   

Control (5)
UB Control   
4C Control   
UR Landstill   
Vault key   (2)

Dreadnaught (2)
DeezNaught   
Tezz Naught   

Dredge (3)   
Mana'd Dredge   
Manaless Ichorid   
Bloodghast Dredge *   

Stax (5)
4c Stax   (2)
BR Stax   
Hasselt Stax   
9 Sphere MUD *   

Aggro (9)
Workshop Aggro   (2)
RB Goblins   
Black Sui
Sadistic Suicide /w Dark Depths   
Noble Fish   (2)
Elves   
MonoR Workshop Aggro *   

Random (6)   
Reanimator   (2)
Replenish   
AggroPainter   
5c Zoo
« Last Edit: December 15, 2009, 05:20:19 am by Marske » Logged

Riding a polka-powered zombie T-Rex into a necromancer family reunion in the middle of an evil ghost hurricane.

"Meandeckers act like they forgot about Dredge." - Matt Elias

Quote
The Atog Lord: I'm not an Atog because I'm GOOD with machines Wink
LennoxLewis86
Full Members
Basic User
***
Posts: 133



View Profile
« Reply #1 on: December 13, 2009, 07:06:47 pm »

Awesome report man! Thanks for the props, it truly was an epic match. The TPS mirror was awesome to play, especially since you taught me how to slow down (after being a Grim Long player for a couple of months) and showed me why some mainboard inclusions (FoF for example) were really needed. It could've gone either way. Although you took the risk of going for Jar and cracking it, and Twistering in your Jar hand, it was a fine play as you had Tolarian out and could easily get enough artifacts out on board (pretty decent when you only have Academy and Swamp left after Tinkering your Sapphire away).

I'm sorry TPS couldn't win today as Guus was my nemesis today. He beat me twice! In the swiss and in the semis, damn workshop aggro. AND he knows how to pilot it perfectly, can't beat the odds then... And indeed, early Trinisphere both games killed me =( Oh well.. I'll get him next time.

And yeah, next time it's you in the top 8 I'm sure. You barely missed it for the second (or third?) time. Who knows? Maybe you can have your revenge against me there.. I'm ahead in head to head matches now, but top 8 wins count double right?

TPS is viable, and as long as people won't recognise it.. it's up to us to keep making top 8 appearances!

I'll be posting my report tomorrow!
« Last Edit: December 13, 2009, 07:22:18 pm by LennoxLewis86 » Logged
Mantis
Full Members
Basic User
***
Posts: 564


Guus de Waard - Team R&D

guus_waard@hotmail.com
View Profile Email
« Reply #2 on: December 13, 2009, 07:14:05 pm »

Marius, great report and the event was awesome. Despite the long ride, I had a great time and hanging out with you, Arjan, Onno, Duncan, Kevin, Bart, Martin, Dennis, the twins: Frank and Twan and everyone else I am forgetting here was definately good times. The event obviously turned out great for R&D and your TPS padawan: Onno and to see your enthousiasm about this really shows me what a great guy you are.

Unfortunately, I didn't have Trinisphere turn 1 against Onno in our second game but on either turn 2 or 3 (can't remember), it's also worth noting that Onno started out both games so Trinisphere definately made less impact. It's true however, that I totally made Onno's life a living hell game 1, where I had 3 Thorns, Chalice at 2, Chalice at 3, Tangle Wire, double Welder and Gorilla Shaman while Onno had 3 lands in play in the end.

- Guus.
Logged
Marske
Mindsculptor
Full Members
Basic User
***
Posts: 1209

Go beyond Synergy and enter Poetry

marius.vanzundert@live.nl marske1984
View Profile WWW
« Reply #3 on: December 13, 2009, 07:21:20 pm »

@Onno,
Quote
Awesome report man! Thanks for the props, it truly was an epic match. The TPS mirror was awesome to play, especially since you taught me how to slow down(after being a Grim Long player for a couple of months) and showed me why some mainboard inclusions (FoF for example) were really needed. It could've gone either way.
Thanks for the props Smile The decklist is really really solid as is the sideboard.

Quote
I'm sorry TPS couldn't win today as Guus was my nemesis today. He beat me twice! In the swiss and in the semis, damn workshop aggro. AND he knows how to pilot it perfectly, can't beat the odds then... And indeed, early Trinisphere both games killed me =( Oh well.. I'll get him next time.
Guus was a real Juggernaut, but seeing you play in the top 8 I think you could have beaten him because you didn't notice some stuff going on. That being said I'm glad Guus won as it put Team RND onto the map and let us dominate the entire event.

Quote
And yeah, next time it's you in the top 8 I'm sure. You barely missed it for the second (or third?) time. Who knows? Maybe you can have your revenge against me there.. I'm ahead in head to head matches now, but top 8 wins count double right?
It was my third time in missing out on the top 8 in a row with me ending up somewhere between 9 and 14, I'm sure I'll get there next time ! It was a truly epic match, however I think if I paid a bit more attention I wouldn't have twistered seeing your Will and Twister in the Yard.

Quote
TPS is viable, and as long as people won't recognise it.. it's up to us to keep making top 8 appearances!
Ssshhh don't tell the rest Wink TPS is a real contender, but with all those stupid WS Aggro players running around we may need to find a way to make their lives a living hell.

Quote
I'll be posting my report tomorrow!
Looking forward to it my friend Smile

@Guus,

Quote
Marius, great report and the event was awesome. Despite the long ride, I had a great time and hanging out with you, Arjan, Onno, Duncan, Kevin, Bart, Martin, Dennis, the twins: Frank and Twan and everyone else I am forgetting here was definately good times. The event obviously turned out great for R&D and your TPS padawan: Onno and to see your enthousiasm about this really shows me what a great guy you are.
Thanks, Team RND truly dominated this event. Hanging out with everybody was awesome I don't name them all because I'd most likely forget a few. The Vintage Community in Holland is truly amazing with so many good players and very nice people. It's always a joy hanging out with you my friend and watching you play Smile

Quote
Unfortunately, I didn't have Trinisphere turn 1 against Onno in our second game but on either turn 2 or 3 (can't remember), it's also worth noting that Onno started out both games so Trinisphere definately made less impact. It's true however, that I totally made Onno's life a living hell game 1, where I had 3 Thorns, Chalice at 2, Chalice at 3, Tangle Wire, double Welder and Gorilla Shaman while Onno had 3 lands in play in the end.
Whatever Wink You dominated the poor fellow !!  Very Happy Very Happy

« Last Edit: December 13, 2009, 07:24:47 pm by Marske » Logged

Riding a polka-powered zombie T-Rex into a necromancer family reunion in the middle of an evil ghost hurricane.

"Meandeckers act like they forgot about Dredge." - Matt Elias

Quote
The Atog Lord: I'm not an Atog because I'm GOOD with machines Wink
sean1i0
Full Members
Basic User
***
Posts: 211


sean13185@hotmail.com Taylor13185
View Profile Email
« Reply #4 on: December 13, 2009, 09:55:17 pm »

Wow!  What an awesome report!  Marius, thanks so much for putting so much work and insight into it.  It is always nice to be able to read what someone with your abilities is thinking through a tournament.  Especially with a deck as complex and powerful as TPS.  Very interesting board tech, too.  Can you give anymore insight into what your various board strategies are against particular matchups?  Especially versus GW Beats, Meandeck Beats, and the WS Aggro decks if you wouldn't mind.  (Since this tech might be secretive, I completely understand if you decide to withhold for now! Wink )
Logged
The Atog Lord
Administrator
Basic User
*****
Posts: 3451


The+Atog+Lord
View Profile
« Reply #5 on: December 13, 2009, 10:36:55 pm »

Marius, thanks for the report. Very well written.
And congrats to the team for doing well.
Logged

The Academy: If I'm not dead, I have a Dragonlord Dromoka coming in 4 turns
Marske
Mindsculptor
Full Members
Basic User
***
Posts: 1209

Go beyond Synergy and enter Poetry

marius.vanzundert@live.nl marske1984
View Profile WWW
« Reply #6 on: December 14, 2009, 03:46:17 am »

Quote
Wow!  What an awesome report!  Marius, thanks so much for putting so much work and insight into it.  It is always nice to be able to read what someone with your abilities is thinking through a tournament.  Especially with a deck as complex and powerful as TPS.  Very interesting board tech, too.  Can you give anymore insight into what your various board strategies are against particular matchups?  Especially versus GW Beats, Meandeck Beats, and the WS Aggro decks if you wouldn't mind.  (Since this tech might be secretive, I completely understand if you decide to withhold for now! Wink )
Thank you, good to see you guys enjoyed my report although I didn't make top 8. Basically I didn't face any Beats deck (or Selkie) but my boarding plan would've been bring in Massacre and Pact and probably try to tinker the big dork ASAP. I don't believe there is a lot you should board in these matchups as your deck already has strategic superiority. I board the same vs WS aggro as I do vs Stax, since I've shown my entire sideboard and described what happened during round 2,  you should be able to figure it out Wink I'll gladly answer questions regarding anything though Smile
« Last Edit: December 14, 2009, 03:49:08 am by Marske » Logged

Riding a polka-powered zombie T-Rex into a necromancer family reunion in the middle of an evil ghost hurricane.

"Meandeckers act like they forgot about Dredge." - Matt Elias

Quote
The Atog Lord: I'm not an Atog because I'm GOOD with machines Wink
sean1i0
Full Members
Basic User
***
Posts: 211


sean13185@hotmail.com Taylor13185
View Profile Email
« Reply #7 on: December 14, 2009, 04:49:37 am »

Hehe well good point about the Stax/MW Aggro boarding! Lol!  As far as the Beats matchup, that's good to  hear that you're finding just sideboarding those 2 cards to be enough against those decks.  So, are the only "bad matchups" you experience the faster combo decks and the workshop matchup?  (Well, except decks, like Sadistic Suicide, that seem just geared to beat this deck, that is.)  I would think that with the amazing manabase of this deck though that you would have an awesome edge against Stax at least.  Can I assume correctly that if you expected a ton of MW decks, then you would switch to/board in Sphinx or Leviathan over DSC?  That plan in this deck (along with the ability to EOT cast mass bounce and combo) seems like it would just wreck them.
Logged
Mantis
Full Members
Basic User
***
Posts: 564


Guus de Waard - Team R&D

guus_waard@hotmail.com
View Profile Email
« Reply #8 on: December 14, 2009, 05:04:38 am »

Sphinx is by far and far the best robot against Workshop decks, it is impossible to race unlike Inkwell and impossible to Weld unlike DSC. Karn also blocks Inkwell. That said the other robots definately have their merits in other matchup, my opinion gravitates towards Sphinx for basically every deck although I can see good points for all of the robots.

On a different note, its time to start contemplating about ways to deal with SadSac as its seeing increasingly more play.
Logged
Marske
Mindsculptor
Full Members
Basic User
***
Posts: 1209

Go beyond Synergy and enter Poetry

marius.vanzundert@live.nl marske1984
View Profile WWW
« Reply #9 on: December 14, 2009, 05:18:27 am »

Quote
Hehe well good point about the Stax/MW Aggro boarding! Lol!  As far as the Beats matchup, that's good to  hear that you're finding just sideboarding those 2 cards to be enough against those decks.  So, are the only "bad matchups" you experience the faster combo decks and the workshop matchup?  (Well, except decks, like Sadistic Suicide, that seem just geared to beat this deck, that is.)
The real bad matchups for TPS are Stax (even with all the basics as their strategy naturally trumps the one TPS has), Ichorid. Faster combo isn't really a "bad" matchup as I guess it's around even depending on pilot and build. It's however an very exciting and knife edge matchup in which there is basically no room for errors. The matches against ANT and Grim Long (along with the TPS mirror) are very very skill intensive, although most people think it's just "who goes nutz first" this is hardly true as you're fighting over resources, disruption, bombs the entire time.

Regarding Sadistic Suicide,
This was a homebrew build by Martin, as he's a very competent storm player (coming fresh of a top 4 finish with TPS as I said in the report). He knows very well how to take Storm apart piece by piece. Since we expected the meta game to have a lot of storm combo decks we tailored his build to do just that. Sadly this meant giving up on some other matchups which ended up costing him the event. There will always be such predators or people building a deck specifically designed to beat yours. I was very happy to "steal" a point during that match.

Quote
I would think that with the amazing manabase of this deck though that you would have an awesome edge against Stax at least.  Can I assume correctly that if you expected a ton of MW decks, then you would switch to/board in Sphinx or Leviathan over DSC?  That plan in this deck (along with the ability to EOT cast mass bounce and combo) seems like it would just wreck them.
The manabase helps a lot, bounce helps a lot and it's definitely an edge against Shop pilots that haven't played the combo match games 2-3 that much. Going EOT bounce, untap win is something that they cannot stop, however it's pretty hard to reach a point to do this against a competent shop player.

Regarding Sphinx/ Leviathan
Quote
Can I assume correctly that if you expected a ton of MW decks, then you would switch to/board in Sphinx or Leviathan over DSC?  That plan in this deck (along with the ability to EOT cast mass bounce and combo) seems like it would just wreck them.

Quote
Sphinx is by far and far the best robot against Workshop decks, it is impossible to race unlike Inkwell and impossible to Weld unlike DSC. Karn also blocks Inkwell. That said the other robots definately have their merits in other matchup, my opinion gravitates towards Sphinx for basically every deck although I can see good points for all of the robots.
I don't think so, as you can see in round 2 my current plan trumps them a bit more as putting them on a 2 turn clock without being able to Weld (needle) gives them hardly any outs. I don't want to give them an extra "time walk" and chance to topdeck a  Tangle, Ramp a Smokestack or Topdeck a Duplicant (relevant with Sphinx). It's a huge amount of pressure combined with Dark Confidant and it becomes very difficult for them to win staring down a 2 turn clock. If I were to play any other deck however, I'd definitely go for Sphinx as he's just too good in those matches.
Logged

Riding a polka-powered zombie T-Rex into a necromancer family reunion in the middle of an evil ghost hurricane.

"Meandeckers act like they forgot about Dredge." - Matt Elias

Quote
The Atog Lord: I'm not an Atog because I'm GOOD with machines Wink
sean1i0
Full Members
Basic User
***
Posts: 211


sean13185@hotmail.com Taylor13185
View Profile Email
« Reply #10 on: December 14, 2009, 05:31:48 am »

Marius, that's really interesting (and cool!) that you've been finding DSC superior to Sphinx even against decks with Welders.  I also find it interesting that in spite of all the basics, Stax still represents one of this decks few truly bad matchups.  Ichorid makes sense, I just completely blanked on it when I typed my first post.  Thanks very much for the insights.

As far as Sadistic Sacrament goes, if it ever became a real problem in the metagame, the first (decent) thing that comes to my mind to deal with it is the idea of boarding into 3x Dark Confidant + VaultKey.  Or, TPS could just board into more Tendrils.  Having multiple Tendrils isn't fundamentally a bad thing anyway.  Either way it would give you more win cons than Sacrament can remove.  Another option is running Misdirections in higher numbers, since the Sacrament targets a player.  That would slow down the TPS player, but maybe it could be set up to only be postboard if that were a problem.  Misdirections are good in general, too.  There is also that card from Ravnica (I think) that prevents players from searching their libraries for a turn, but that seems *way* to situational.  It also costs 2 mana (neither of them colorless), so Sadistic Sacrament could get through that particular shield.  Finally, there is the Sacrament of our own to play first (in theory).

Ultimately though, I think that reactive answers to Sacrament will have a way of slowing the deck down too much and just not being drawn when they matter.  I feel like that is the wrong way to take the deck.  I think adding in more win cons is the ideal way to play it.
Logged
Marske
Mindsculptor
Full Members
Basic User
***
Posts: 1209

Go beyond Synergy and enter Poetry

marius.vanzundert@live.nl marske1984
View Profile WWW
« Reply #11 on: December 14, 2009, 05:46:38 am »

Quote
Marius, that's really interesting (and cool!) that you've been finding DSC superior to Sphinx even against decks with Welders.  I also find it interesting that in spite of all the basics, Stax still represents one of this decks few truly bad matchups.  Ichorid makes sense, I just completely blanked on it when I typed my first post.  Thanks very much for the insights.
This could be personal preference, but ever since I switched back to running DSC (I ran Inkwell for 3 events) I've been stealing more and more games. Tinkering Inkwell vs Tezz is hardly relevant as they can easily win within the 4 turns you've given them. (1 turn you've just tinkered it,  turn 2 you attack once, turn 3 you attack twice, turn 4 you attack for the 3rd time) that's hoping they didn't grab a Karn to chump Inkwell or a Duplicant / Tangle to slow you down even more.

Compare that to this: turn 1 you've tinkered, turn 2 you attack, turn 3 you attack and win) as became clear during my round 2 match, the WS aggro player had no choice but to laydown his on fatties to block, laying spheres isn't winning it anymore. even with chumping I take a huge chunk of life (compared to Inkwell DSC ALWAYS hits for 3+ damage against most bots) he can do 3 things: Find Welder and hope it becomes active fast enough (and I don't have a way to deal with it), chump it or find Tangle / Smokestack and hope I don't have enough permanents and he can ramp it before dying. 

Neither of those things is something non-5c lists are capable of doing as they don't have a way to tutor and only have Bazaar to draw stuff. It takes some planning and you can't tinker into an active welder (who does that anyway even with sphinx ?!  Bazaar + active Welder means they can probably dig into Tangle / Dupe fast enough to still be a problem) Against Tezzeret players running Confidant it means the one extra turn they aren't getting is lethal most of the time. Confidant sucks if you REALLY need to draw an answer to a 2 turn clock making it a very dangerous tinker plan vs them as well as opposed to inkwell which they can basically laugh at.

Regarding Sadistic sacrament in general,
I see this card moving out of the maindeck as it's a cute trick if you're in a Storm / Oath heavy meta but It's practically a dead draw against any other deck. I don't see non-ritual decks abusing this card to it's real potential so mostly only dark ritual fueled decks would have it in the board. This isn't a problem as it's now the default boarding plan that has replaced boarding in Tormod's Crypt.
« Last Edit: December 14, 2009, 05:49:32 am by Marske » Logged

Riding a polka-powered zombie T-Rex into a necromancer family reunion in the middle of an evil ghost hurricane.

"Meandeckers act like they forgot about Dredge." - Matt Elias

Quote
The Atog Lord: I'm not an Atog because I'm GOOD with machines Wink
LennoxLewis86
Full Members
Basic User
***
Posts: 133



View Profile
« Reply #12 on: December 14, 2009, 07:18:06 am »

Guus was a real Juggernaut, but seeing you play in the top 8 I think you could have beaten him because you didn't notice some stuff going on. That being said I'm glad Guus won as it put Team RND onto the map and let us dominate the entire event.

Yeah, I think you're referring to the moment where I could've cast Gifts right? Never knew that Spheres worked that way. I assumed that regardless of Trinisphere, a Thorn would still make Gifts {1} more to cast. Trial and error, as I will remember this the next time.
I also made a mistake the second game where I could've bounced his board when he attacked with Juggernaut, he wouldn't have enough mana to recast all the spheres and the Juggernaut. I had the second Hurkyl's Recall in hand but waited for the classic EOT bounce. I just totally forgot about the possibility of Trisk, I kind of deserved that he topdecked the 2nd Shop and being able to shoot my last two lifepoints away by casting Trisk in his second mainphase.

And yeah, I'll be looking forward to discussing strategies that could trump the WS aggro deck, the combination of pressure and lockpieces is hard to deal with. Guus managed to kill me in two games where I was set to bounce, but he used some tempo lockpiece/strip to ''timewalk'' and seal the games.
Logged
Marske
Mindsculptor
Full Members
Basic User
***
Posts: 1209

Go beyond Synergy and enter Poetry

marius.vanzundert@live.nl marske1984
View Profile WWW
« Reply #13 on: December 14, 2009, 07:25:46 am »

@Onno,
Yes, I think you could have won the match vs Guus as Bart and myself were looking on and noticed several of these small mistakes. Don't take it to badly as playing TPS for 6 rounds straight into top 8 is no small feat, everybody would be exhausted after doing so.

Quote
And yeah, I'll be looking forward to discussing strategies that could trump the WS aggro deck, the combination of pressure and lockpieces is hard to deal with. Guus managed to kill me in two games where I was set to bounce, but he used some tempo lockpiece/strip to ''timewalk'' and seal the games.
I think those games were certainly winnable, as I beat WS aggro during the event myself. Guus however is a very good pilot. I don't think a lot can be done besides the obvious boarding plan.
Logged

Riding a polka-powered zombie T-Rex into a necromancer family reunion in the middle of an evil ghost hurricane.

"Meandeckers act like they forgot about Dredge." - Matt Elias

Quote
The Atog Lord: I'm not an Atog because I'm GOOD with machines Wink
Daedalus
Basic User
**
Posts: 8



View Profile
« Reply #14 on: December 14, 2009, 07:46:45 am »

@LennoxLewis,
Just to clarify your problem with the Spheres: You were right. I followed the discussion from a distance, but didn't hear exactly how this went. The thing is that you first add all additional costs (Sphere / Thorn of Amethyst), then apply cost reductions. If, at this moment, the total cost in mana is less then three, Trinisphere will make it 3. The Gifts Ungiven in this scenario would still be 5 mana to cast.
If there are 2 spheres and a Trinisphere, a hurkyls recall will cost 4 mana.

On another note, again a really nice tournament report Marske. Although you didn't make T8, I'm sure you will get there eventually. Perhaps in january in Breda again.

I just received the scanned versions of the T8 decklists, I will process them this evening and put them online as well. Thanks for the props for the organisation, I had a great time during the tournament and I'm really happy with how the entire day played out.

Gerwin
Logged
Marske
Mindsculptor
Full Members
Basic User
***
Posts: 1209

Go beyond Synergy and enter Poetry

marius.vanzundert@live.nl marske1984
View Profile WWW
« Reply #15 on: December 14, 2009, 08:03:47 am »

@Daedalus.
Thanks for organizing this wonderful event, I truly had a blast. The prize support was off the chart !!

Quote
On another note, again a really nice tournament report Marske. Although you didn't make T8, I'm sure you will get there eventually. Perhaps in january in Breda again.
Thank you, I'll make it eventually as this was my third time in a row just missing out on the top 8,  I've been a solid top 16 performer with TPS all year though, which says something imo.

Quote
I just received the scanned versions of the T8 decklists, I will process them this evening and put them online as well. Thanks for the props for the organisation, I had a great time during the tournament and I'm really happy with how the entire day played out.
AWESOME !! Any chance you could post the scans ? (Contact me on TMD or TMC if you want me to host them)
« Last Edit: December 14, 2009, 08:09:03 am by Marske » Logged

Riding a polka-powered zombie T-Rex into a necromancer family reunion in the middle of an evil ghost hurricane.

"Meandeckers act like they forgot about Dredge." - Matt Elias

Quote
The Atog Lord: I'm not an Atog because I'm GOOD with machines Wink
Mantis
Full Members
Basic User
***
Posts: 564


Guus de Waard - Team R&D

guus_waard@hotmail.com
View Profile Email
« Reply #16 on: December 14, 2009, 08:09:47 am »

Onno, you played it right as the risk of getting blown out by Tangle Wire was bigger than getting blown out by Triskelion. Or could you have beat me while being outtapped?
Logged
MaxxMatt
Full Members
Basic User
***
Posts: 482


King Of Metaphors


View Profile WWW Email
« Reply #17 on: December 14, 2009, 09:18:40 am »

Hi Marske,

thanks for the nice report and overall good results.

Looking at your sideboard directions, have you tried Plague Spitter to get rid of weenies and intelligent creatures with */1 body? You are going to control the board against DConfidants, Welders and weenies in general. Killing the Spitter, will enable you to completely reset Fish/Bant board, with the exclusion of Tarmogoyff, against which can deal with bouncers.

I proudly peeked at these DConfidants in sideboard while you flood the maindeck with a pletora of solid and broken 1of. Is this choice a metagame one or not? Will you play maindeck confidants in other different and specific metagames?

If ghastdredge will be more prominent, how do you feel against them?

Thanks in advance for the report Marius!
See you next time!

Maxx
Logged

Team Unglued - Crazy Cows of Magic since '97
--------------------
Se io do una moneta a te e tu una a me, ciascuno di noi ha una moneta
Se io do un'idea a te e tu una a me, ciascuno di noi ha due idee
Marske
Mindsculptor
Full Members
Basic User
***
Posts: 1209

Go beyond Synergy and enter Poetry

marius.vanzundert@live.nl marske1984
View Profile WWW
« Reply #18 on: December 14, 2009, 09:29:12 am »

Quote
thanks for the nice report and overall good results.
Thank you Wink

Quote
Looking at your sideboard directions, have you tried Plague Spitter to get rid of weenies and intelligent creatures with */1 body? You are going to control the board against DConfidants, Welders and weenies in general. Killing the Spitter, will enable you to completely reset Fish/Bant board, with the exclusion of Tarmogoyff, against which can deal with bouncers.
I tried Plague spitter after you mentioned it a while back, I found it a bit to slow as I generally want to sweep the board EOT (before the turn I combo with bounce) or sweep it for free the turn I want to go (massacre) or get rid of one pesky little critter (Pact) during going combo. That being said, I can easily see Spitter being good enough if you face a lot of Fish / Bant decks as you guys do in Italy.

Quote
I proudly peeked at these DConfidants in sideboard while you flood the maindeck with a pletora of solid and broken 1of. Is this choice a metagame one or not? Will you play maindeck confidants in other different and specific metagames?
I'd definitely play Confidants maindeck if the meta had a lot more 9sphere decks. Against straight up WS aggro and 5c Stax I found this maindeck and boarding plan to be sufficient enough. Also the way it's currently setup makes it easy to win just about any other match, the board handles the really hard ones (9sphere.dec, Dredge.dec, possibly fish.dec) while Confidant vs Tezz ( even now that they also run confidants and don't have TFK) is just way to slow. The maindeck lets you beat "random Jank.dec" with consistency which is also pretty awesome.

Quote
If ghastdredge will be more prominent, how do you feel against them?
I've had some pretty solid results vs Dredge (Ghast, Hypnotist, etc) during testing. I feel comfortable enough with the cards I'm bringing in now. I do however believe people don't know how to handle dredge and thusly overboard. The matchup is around even and tilts in TPS's favor after boarding with my current maindeck + board.
« Last Edit: December 14, 2009, 09:32:54 am by Marske » Logged

Riding a polka-powered zombie T-Rex into a necromancer family reunion in the middle of an evil ghost hurricane.

"Meandeckers act like they forgot about Dredge." - Matt Elias

Quote
The Atog Lord: I'm not an Atog because I'm GOOD with machines Wink
LennoxLewis86
Full Members
Basic User
***
Posts: 133



View Profile
« Reply #19 on: December 14, 2009, 09:31:16 am »

@Guus,

I have to think of the precise gamestate. I remember having the Petal game 2 so in that case I could've won through Tangle Wire. But it could easily have happened I fed my Petal to the Necro because my options were really limited having to keep making landdrops, having to keep bounce in hand but also Tendrils next to Ritual, Ritual, Demonic Tutor. I have not written down enough to make out what happened during the games but you are right in that Tangles are a bigger Risk than being blown out by Triskelion. But I think you are right, I had to wait until end of turn...

@Daedalus,

Thanks for clearing that up! It really sounded strange to me that Trinisphere would even out a Thorn if the spell's casting cost is 4 mana.

Then I think I played the match (almost) as best as I could. I'm not a worldbeater but I have a good grasp on how TPS works. Thanks guys, for clearing up the doubts because I almost started to feel as if I could've won, which I'm pretty sure was VERY hard to pull off.
Logged
Marske
Mindsculptor
Full Members
Basic User
***
Posts: 1209

Go beyond Synergy and enter Poetry

marius.vanzundert@live.nl marske1984
View Profile WWW
« Reply #20 on: December 14, 2009, 09:38:11 am »

@Onno, Guus,
Can you guys argue about who could have won / what should have been done in Onno's report Wink (when is  that gonna be up ? btw  Wink Very Happy) It was amazing seeing the extreme high level of play going on in the top 8. From TPS vs WS aggro struggles to ANT facing down AlmostBlue. Those were some worldclass matches and I think everybody that played in the top 8 deserves credit for it. Although I would have loved to have been playing along side you guys (Damn you Onno !!) as a spectator I had huge amounts of fun watching you guys play at such a level.
Logged

Riding a polka-powered zombie T-Rex into a necromancer family reunion in the middle of an evil ghost hurricane.

"Meandeckers act like they forgot about Dredge." - Matt Elias

Quote
The Atog Lord: I'm not an Atog because I'm GOOD with machines Wink
Gekoratel
Full Members
Basic User
***
Posts: 286


AnotherAimAddict
View Profile
« Reply #21 on: December 14, 2009, 11:06:13 am »

Thanks for the report Marske, for your ANT opponent game 1 did he stop to early because he forgot about the Pact that he cast?  From the cards you listed he should still have had 6 life points to work with he could hope to either hits the nuts 0-1cc spells + Tendrils or draw Lotus/Moxen and be able to pay for the Pact on his next upkeep.

@Bad matchups - For the Workshop Aggro matchup I actually think this is a favorable matchup for TPS especially post-board you often don't care about cards like Juggarnaut or Magus of the Moon if you were able to get a couple basics in play and they don't run nearly as much disruption as Stax so often one Chain of Vapor later and you can win.  This matchup I have played against and is one I'm happy to play.  WS Aggro is also soft against an early Tinker more so than Stax.  I also don't think Stax is an unfavorable matchup for TPS, you have on of the most solid manabases in Vintage, can win out of nowhere and post-board combat there mana disruption with more Basics and bounce spells.

If you think that Stax, WS Aggro, Combo are all bad matchups and Tezz is about even why play TPS?  My opinions for good/bad matchups

Favorable
WS Aggro

Slightly Favorable
Tezz (pre-board) - post-board Slightly unfavorable based on Tezz board
Stax
B/X Fish

Even
U/X Fish
Oath
Combo
Ichorid(depending on number or SB slots)

Poor
Anything Remora or Counterbalance


Steve Nowakowski(PersonalBackfire) has been consistently Top 8ing with TPS and demolishing Workshop players on his way to Top 8, I know he's always comfortable when sitting across from Shops which is saying something because most of the Shop players in our meta are solid.  But he also runs 13 lands which does help that matchup a bit.
« Last Edit: December 14, 2009, 11:16:02 am by Gekoratel » Logged
Marske
Mindsculptor
Full Members
Basic User
***
Posts: 1209

Go beyond Synergy and enter Poetry

marius.vanzundert@live.nl marske1984
View Profile WWW
« Reply #22 on: December 14, 2009, 01:06:02 pm »

Quote
Thanks for the report Marske, for your ANT opponent game 1 did he stop to early because he forgot about the Pact that he cast?  From the cards you listed he should still have had 6 life points to work with he could hope to either hits the nuts 0-1cc spells + Tendrils or draw Lotus/Moxen and be able to pay for the Pact on his next upkeep.
He went down to 4 life actually flipping no gas or tutor just rituals, Hurkyl's (no chrome moxen) I think he passed the turn without realizing he had to pay for the pact the next turn.

Quote
For the Workshop Aggro matchup I actually think this is a favorable matchup for TPS especially post-board you often don't care about cards like Juggarnaut or Magus of the Moon if you were able to get a couple basics in play and they don't run nearly as much disruption as Stax so often one Chain of Vapor later and you can win.
I have to agree with you on this one, having faced them now multiple times, it's still a truth that Shop strategies will naturally trump ritual based strategies though.

Quote
This matchup I have played against and is one I'm happy to play.  WS Aggro is also soft against an early Tinker more so than Stax.  I also don't think Stax is an unfavorable matchup for TPS, you have on of the most solid manabases in Vintage, can win out of nowhere and post-board combat there mana disruption with more Basics and bounce spells.
Stax is around even during my testing and tournament play and not at all unfavorable, it's still a very rough matchups for beginning Ritual pilots as they can often become entangled in fighting the wrong fight. That's the main reason why I listed them as being "bad", any starting TPS pilot will most likely get their asses handed to them by any halfway decent shop player. It's a matchup you need to practice Ad infinitum as there is a lot more to it then just waiting to EOT bounce the board and go nuts.

Quote
If you think that Stax, WS Aggro, Combo are all bad matchups and Tezz is about even why play TPS?  My opinions for good/bad matchups
I just don't like facing ANT as it can so easily beat you when it wins the die roll, This matchup is again, not really that bad if you manage to get a turn you're most likely going to win. Shop decks are always a technical battle and in no way a walk in the park for any storm player I don't care who you are or how good you are.

Maybe I should've nuanced my report a bit more in the fact that I was bummed to be having such rough matches instead of "bad" matches. (I'm not a native English speaker so I'm sure I post some stuff that comes across different then what I'm actually trying to say) I don't really look forward to starting a event facing ANT, Shop, Shop when playing TPS. In my best case scenario a event would start with Beats, Drain Drain as I know I'll have 3 byes in that case Wink I don't think I've ever posted anything regarding the Tezz matchup being even. If you read back through my post you'll even notice me claiming TPS had an edge when Tezz had 4 TFK, now that they run a sub-par draw engine compared to what they used to the matchup becomes an even bigger walk in the park.

Quote
Favorable
WS Aggro

Slightly Favorable
Tezz (pre-board) - post-board Slightly unfavorable based on Tezz board
Stax
B/X Fish

Even
U/X Fish
Oath
Combo
Ichorid(depending on number or SB slots)

Poor
Anything Remora or Counterbalance

I agree, this is basically why I choose to play TPS as it's really pretty good in today's meta. With a decent enough pilot and tight technical play you can truly dominate events.

Quote
Steve Nowakowski(PersonalBackfire) has been consistently Top 8ing with TPS and demolishing Workshop players on his way to Top 8, I know he's always comfortable when sitting across from Shops which is saying something because most of the Shop players in our meta are solid.  But he also runs 13 lands which does help that matchup a bit.
I'm not at all uncomfortable with facing Shop decks in whatever shape or form. I don't know if the 1 land he runs more makes that big of a difference though. I've lost to shop decks because of their "nut draws" (turn 1 Strip lock + Trini) or a very early cap activation (like vs 9sphere MUD this event) when he could activate cap on turn 3 without me being able to tutor for a tendrils. These matches aren't unwinnable by a long shot. It is however a highly technical battle against such decks. Seeing most US lists are basically 5c Stax (which I have no problem beating whatsoever) I'm still kinda skeptical to see anybody being comfortable facing 9sphere MUD with Caps.

« Last Edit: December 14, 2009, 01:18:15 pm by Marske » Logged

Riding a polka-powered zombie T-Rex into a necromancer family reunion in the middle of an evil ghost hurricane.

"Meandeckers act like they forgot about Dredge." - Matt Elias

Quote
The Atog Lord: I'm not an Atog because I'm GOOD with machines Wink
Gekoratel
Full Members
Basic User
***
Posts: 286


AnotherAimAddict
View Profile
« Reply #23 on: December 14, 2009, 01:54:06 pm »

Agree with you about Stax being a hard matchup for players that haven't tested TPS that much.  Most of my matchup evaluations assume strong technical play on both sides.  I understand your point of view a bit better now that you've clarified rough vs. bad in your report.  Against Shops as a whole the more lock pieces but namely Resistors they run the harder the matchup is.  Decks like MUD and 9Ball Stax are going to be a lot harder than 5c Stax, BR Stax, and WS Aggro.  In our meta there is no MUD and only one person who plays a 9Ball Stax variant so the harder versions of Workshops aren't represented.

I do think that TPS is well positioned against the current metagame and am surprised that more people haven't picked up the deck.  It also destroys opponents that stumble for a turn and weak decks as a whole.
Logged
Marske
Mindsculptor
Full Members
Basic User
***
Posts: 1209

Go beyond Synergy and enter Poetry

marius.vanzundert@live.nl marske1984
View Profile WWW
« Reply #24 on: December 14, 2009, 02:02:53 pm »

@Gekoratal,
I agree, we've been seeing a lot more 5c Stax lately while in the past players played a lot more 9sphere Stax lists. I guess they'll rise again now combo in general has been so well represented in Holland in the past 3-4 events (it won 3 and all 3 top 8's were literally filled with combo pilots)

Quote
I do think that TPS is well positioned against the current metagame and am surprised that more people haven't picked up the deck.  It also destroys opponents that stumble for a turn and weak decks as a whole.
It's surprising to me as well, I guess the high level of concentration, tight technical play just scares players off I guess. It's a real razors edge deck with even the slightest hiccup on your part and you could just lose the game. However, I like TPS and have been an avid supporter of the deck for well over a year and a half now. I've killed many a foe that stumbled for just the slightest of turns and weak decks basically become byes which is also very nice Wink
Logged

Riding a polka-powered zombie T-Rex into a necromancer family reunion in the middle of an evil ghost hurricane.

"Meandeckers act like they forgot about Dredge." - Matt Elias

Quote
The Atog Lord: I'm not an Atog because I'm GOOD with machines Wink
personalbackfire
Full Members
Basic User
***
Posts: 359


personalbackfire
View Profile Email
« Reply #25 on: December 14, 2009, 03:34:12 pm »

In my best case scenario a event would start with Beats, Drain Drain as I know I'll have 3 byes in that case Wink I don't think I've ever posted anything regarding the Tezz matchup being even. If you read back through my post you'll even notice me claiming TPS had an edge when Tezz had 4 TFK, now that they run a sub-par draw engine compared to what they used to the matchup becomes an even bigger walk in the park.

With the assumption of Drain = Tezzeret, I would have to disagree with you. The Tezzeret matchup, in my experience and testing, has been slightly favorable Pre - Board and Even or slightly disadvantaged post board, depending on their sideboard. I wouldn't consider this matchup a "bye" or a "walk in the park" by any means.

This is the reason why:

In my metagame, Tezz decks run 3-4 Duress's main. Although the sub par draw engine, Bob, is not as fast as TFK in finding answers, I believe the fact that turn one they can interact with you by Duressing you, then have Drain mana up by turn 2 makes the fight pretty even. The difference with Tezz, as opposed to other types of big mana drain decks, like Slaver, is that they have one of the best cards to fight you, which is duress. Pair that with the fact that they can win out of nowhere, and also have broken hands that can randomly win on turn 1, I am never 100% on this match.

Post board, Tezz has some great answers, where I find TPS has less. Tezz can up the Duress count if they like, play Remora, which is terrible for you, play Arcane Lab, or play Glen Elendra. That isn't even including the ever possible Trinisphere that could come out of the sideboard as a tinker target, and the few REBS that you will also have to face. If Tezzeret can slow the game down enough, their superior disruption will win them the games.

In my testing, which hasn't included bringing in Bob against them, I find the best answer to all of this is Thoughtseize. Extra Duress's let you see their hands early on and play appropriately for the rest of the game, but even that can't compare to all that Tezz can bring in.

Just my thoughts.
Logged
Marske
Mindsculptor
Full Members
Basic User
***
Posts: 1209

Go beyond Synergy and enter Poetry

marius.vanzundert@live.nl marske1984
View Profile WWW
« Reply #26 on: December 14, 2009, 06:30:38 pm »

@PersonalBackFire,
I guess our meta's are really to different as I've not had any problem with Tezzeret which has been on an all out decline ever since TFK got the axe. While it's true that they have Duress and it's not as easy as facing previous drain decks (Slaver) I'd still prefer facing Drains over Workshops any day of the week. I think I'm not making my points clear enough today Wink which is probably my fault, let me rephrase the sentence into: compared to playing vs Shop, playing vs Drains basically equals a Bye as you're slightly favorable and you have strategic superiority over them instead of them having it over you which is the case when you play against Shops.

Quote
Post board, Tezz has some great answers, where I find TPS has less. Tezz can up the Duress count if they like, play Remora, which is terrible for you, play Arcane Lab, or play Glen Elendra. That isn't even including the ever possible Trinisphere that could come out of the sideboard as a tinker target, and the few REBS that you will also have to face. If Tezzeret can slow the game down enough, their superior disruption will win them the games.
Upping the Duress count is indeed something that can help deal with TPS, Adding Remora isn't really something I'm that afraid off, honestly, without UU open it's 4x Force vs 4x Duress + 4x Force when you go Combo, Let them draw a shitton of cards, who cares if they never get to untap? Now with previous Remora builds (running Commandeer) you'd have to worry about playing nasty stuff like Necro. With them just drawing into blanks and possibly a Force or 2 It's by no means a problem. I've tested the Remora Matchup (with Commandeer) extensively (as Rich Shay is my teammate after all).
 
I've not lost to a Tezz player boarding in Remora too date. Having Trinisphere from the board is nice and all but it slows them down as well. Maybe it's the difference in Drain pilots or maybe it's the sideboard cards they don't play over here but I'm totally not afraid of Tezz and would probably call the matchup slightly favorable and I'd definitely prefer facing it compared to facing Shop decks.

Quote
In my testing, which hasn't included bringing in Bob against them, I find the best answer to all of this is Thoughtseize. Extra Duress's let you see their hands early on and play appropriately for the rest of the game, but even that can't compare to all that Tezz can bring in.
I bring Bob in if I've seen something indicating Arcane Lab or 3Sphere. It's not an automatic "include" after boarding, I think both strategies are very valid, the fact that Thoughtseize isn't really that great in other matches imho is mostly the reason I don't play it in the board.
« Last Edit: December 14, 2009, 06:38:04 pm by Marske » Logged

Riding a polka-powered zombie T-Rex into a necromancer family reunion in the middle of an evil ghost hurricane.

"Meandeckers act like they forgot about Dredge." - Matt Elias

Quote
The Atog Lord: I'm not an Atog because I'm GOOD with machines Wink
sean1i0
Full Members
Basic User
***
Posts: 211


sean13185@hotmail.com Taylor13185
View Profile Email
« Reply #27 on: December 14, 2009, 09:08:13 pm »

With no disrespect to the power of the Tezzeret decks (which, quite obviously, should be given *a lot* of respect), I have also found that matchup to be quite good.  That is even with playing against Tezz players sporting Thoughtseizes/Duresses.  Now, against the ones without those cards, the matchup goes even more in TPS's favor, but that much should be clear already.  I really agree with what is being said here about TPS (and storm decks historically in Vintage at least since the time of GrimLong if not before that):  Coupled with tight technical play, it is most certainly one of the best Tier 1 decks in Vintage.  The power of the cards, speed of the deck, and strategic superiority of the deck (along with an ability to disrupt and interact when needed) make it a force with which to be reckoned.

I really think that the element that's kept so many players away from Tendrils decks is the high level of technical play required and the toll that playing a deck as complex as TPS takes on a player throughout a tournament.  The thing is, I believe, that this can be overcome with practice.  Which is why I have played Storm for so many years in testing/local events.  These decks have a way of controlling the game's speed and, therefore, a lot of times, it feels like playing a football game at home rather than away.  The psychological advantage should not be underestimated.  Opponents make lots of mistakes, throw away lots of games, and mentally give up lots of matches, because of their fear of good Storm combo decks and good Storm pilots.  And you know what?  I think they have a right to be afraid! Very Happy
Logged
Gekoratel
Full Members
Basic User
***
Posts: 286


AnotherAimAddict
View Profile
« Reply #28 on: December 14, 2009, 10:08:25 pm »

I want to start by saying MU analysis is very subjective and heavily influenced by the quality of players of a given metagame.  I've heard from solid Tezz players that they thought TPS was a fine matchup and clearly the other side of the coin as well.  This is likely from the better players of a given metagame specializing in either Tezz or TPS.  I'm going to go into a bit of detail about the main cards that you can expect from Tezz and how they impact the matchup.

REB - One of the most popular card Tezz boards for the mirror gets some value in this matchup.  While it may seem innocuous the Tezzeret player should use it in any way they can to get tempo see countering cards like Brainstorm, Ponder, Time Walk.  It also makes the big blue spells of TPS worse (FoF, Tinker, Twister,Gifts).  And the final and most important use of REB is that when they have a Red Source and you have the option of playing a threat with FoW backup you open yourself to get blown out by Fow + REB from the Tezzeret opponent.  All Tezz wants is the game to go an extra turn or 2 and REB helps in this regard.

Remora - I'd say this would be the 2nd most popular board card and has been gaining more ground lately especially after GI's nice thread.  While not game ending by itself it puts TPS in awkward gamestates where they need to decide if they have the resources to commit into winning through the card.  For example sometimes with TPS you can play some Rituals, Lead with Duress to clear the way and then play a threat negating most of the cards drawn but if they hit double FoW or you don't have the option of Duress you'll need to make a hard judgment call.  Also in your explanation of the card you seem to automatically have it tying up their blue mana.  It's not unreasonable to assume that they might have a Mox and therefore have access to Drain mana turn 2.  And if they have a couple more lands in hand can keep it going w/ Drain open.  If you try and just wait out the Remora then it’s doing exactly what Tezzeret wants to in this MU.

Direct combo hate (Trini, Arcane Lab, Glen Elendra) - First off not many people in the states are running these cards and rightfully so since combo is so underrepresented in our metagame.  The first two are most counter/answer threats that give Tezz another way to attack the matchup.  Glen seems slow on paper in a matchup where the first few turns are critical but due to Tezz having more disruption post-board the games tend to last longer and a resolved Glen can be the nail in the coffin.
« Last Edit: December 14, 2009, 10:16:15 pm by Gekoratel » Logged
sean1i0
Full Members
Basic User
***
Posts: 211


sean13185@hotmail.com Taylor13185
View Profile Email
« Reply #29 on: December 15, 2009, 02:15:55 am »

Well, I think the point that you make in the opening of your post is definitely the most important.  I have no doubt that the Tezz players who have told you that TPS is a fine matchup for them are telling the truth.  I also know that the opposite is true.  What you said about specialization and skill level is, I think, the key to understanding what is happening. 

Robert Vroman (among others) has been known to say that skill level is such a great determining factor in Vintage, that he is not even certain if there are such things are good or bad matchups.  Now, I am not saying that I'm quite convinced of something quite that profound yet, but I definitely think that Vintage is format in which the skill of the player *and* the amount to which that player has successfully prepared his deck for the metagame (both in its maindeck and in its sideboard plans) determine how a deck does against any other deck much more so than the "matchup" ever does. 

One of the reasons for this is all of the tutors the format has access to use.  Tutors are incredibly skill intensive and and also allow you to control what cards you're playing with thousands of times more than playing in a format where you have to just draw spells or where you are just relying on your draw every turn.  There are many other reasons why I think this is (for example, just the vast cardpool alone means that you *can* actually put together a deck that answers needs to be answered, gets its mana smoothly and consistently, or any other number of other things), but the important message is that I believe this is a fundamental truth about modern Vintage.  (It's also one of the reasons why I love the format so much.)

I think that MUs really become important when you have 2 players who are equally skilled and who have equal amounts of time spent specializing in their weapons of choice.  Because these situations are so rare is why I think it's so difficult to actually determine MUs.  Anyway, I think this is a really important point (and big selling point for potential new players...besides the idea of playing with really cool cards like the P9 of course!) for players to understand about the format, so I figured now would be an ideal time to extrapolate on it.
Logged
Pages: [1] 2
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.21 | SMF © 2015, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.08 seconds with 20 queries.