Feedback: Largest NA Vintage event?

[Shock Wave]

Hi all,

I am considering hosting what I would like to be the best Vintage and Legacy tournaments ever. By "best", I mean that I would like to provide the best prize structures possible. As a starting point, here are the prizes structures comparable to what I would like to provide:

For the Legacy Event:

1   1 PlaySet of dualands wb (40) + 1 Playset de fetch (20)
2   1 PlaySet of dualands wb (40)
3   1 Black lotus
4   1 Ancestral Recall
5   4 Underground sea fbb
6   4 Tundra fbb
7   4 Tropical island fbb
8   4 Volcanic island fbb
9   1 underground sea fbb
10   1 tropical island fbb
11   1 Tundra fbb
12   1 Volcanic island fbb
13   1 underground sea wb
14   1 tropical island wb
15   1 Tundra wb
16   1 volcanic island wb
17   1 FOW
18   1 FOW
19   1 FOW
20   1 FOW
21   10 boosters
22   10 boosters
23   10 boosters
24   10 boosters
25   5 boosters
26   5 boosters
27   5 boosters
28   5 boosters
29   5 boosters
30   5 boosters
31   5 boosters
32   5 boosters

For the Vintage Event:

1   1 mox saphirre + 1 mox jet + 1 mox ruby + 1 mox emerald + 1 mox pearl
2   1 ancestral recall + 1 timewalk + 1 Time twister
3   Black lotus
4   Black lotus
5   1 Ancestral recall
6   1 Timewalk
7   1 Mox
8   1 Mox
9   1 Mana drain
10   1 Mana drain
11   1 Mana Drain
12   1 Mana Drain
13   1 underground sea fbb
14   1 Tropical island fbb
15   1 Tundra fbb
16   1 Volcanic island fbb
17   1 underground sea wb
18   1 Tropical island wb
19   1 Tundra wb
20   1 volcanic island wb

UNPOWERED :
A Deck is considered Unpowered if it doesn't contain a single card from the Power 9, i.e. Mox Emerald, Ruby, Sapphire, Pearl, Jet, Time Walk, Ancestral Recall, Timetwister and Black Lotus.

1 unpow   1 Black lotus
2 unpow   1 Mana drain
3 unpow   15 boosters
4 unpow   15 boostes
5 unpow   10 boosters
6 unpow   10 boosters
7 unpow   10 boosters
8 unpow   10 boosters

BUDGET :
A Deck is considered Budget if it doesn't contain a single card among the following : P9 (see description above), Mana Drain, Mishra's Workshop, Bazaar of Bagdhad, Imperial Seal, Illusionary Mask, Grim Tutor, Library of Alexandria)
1st: bazaar of baghdad
2nd: 15 boosters

For those of you who are familiar with the much touted "Bazaar of Moxen" events in France, you'll recognize this prize structure from their latest event. I have been to several of these events and they are incredible, so I am looking to use their prize structure as a baseline for what I would like to provide.

Some other ideas that crossed my mind to try to increase the attendance and competition:

- discounted entry fees to budget and unpowered players as well
- a significant prize for the best performing 3-man team. For example, registering a 3-man team would cost 60-$100, with the prize being 3 Mox Sapphires to the best team

My concerns:

If I decide to run this event, I would be putting up my entire collection as part of the prizes, and I would be fully anticipating to lose quite a bit of money. That being said, I do want to get an idea of who would support this event from south of the border, so I can at least get a forecast of how much "cash" I can expect to lose. Getting support from US players is going to be the catalyst here, so my question is:

If this event were scheduled for August of this coming summer, and you live in the US or in remote areas of Canada (ie.6+hours drive from Toronto), would you attend? If not, what would be a persuading factor for you to attend?

If anyone has any suggestions or input, I would like to hear back from you.

Thanks,

Rich

[Demonic Attorney]

As a U.S. player who lives relatively close to the Canadian border, I'd be very inclined to attend.  The factors that ultimately determine whether or not I actually do are largely outside your control, such as my workload and personal obligations at the time of the event, how much disposable income I have to spend on Magic, my overall financial situation, etc.  But I would make every effort to try to go.

Out of curiosity though, I have to ask-- are you putting up your collection as a way to drop the format, even with the knowledge that you'll lose money?  And, more topically, have you considered pooling prize resources with other players/organizers?  This might help reduce the losses to each of the individual sponsors.

[Shock Wave]

As a U.S. player who lives relatively close to the Canadian border, I'd be very inclined to attend.  The factors that ultimately determine whether or not I actually do are largely outside your control, such as my workload and personal obligations at the time of the event, how much disposable income I have to spend on Magic, my overall financial situation, etc.  But I would make every effort to try to go.

Out of curiosity though, I have to ask-- are you putting up your collection as a way to drop the format, even with the knowledge that you'll lose money?  And, more topically, have you considered pooling prize resources with other players/organizers?  This might help reduce the losses to each of the individual sponsors.

To be honest, I have never been much of a collector and I would be ok with starting over my collection from nothing. I enjoy large, competitive events and I would like to provide an event of BoM proportions for NA players to have the opportunity to play in.

I have asked a few players about pooling prize resources together, but most players with large card pools are not willing to "donate" their cards. I have stated that I would like to organize this in such a way that the best turnout possible is achieved, but I would want everyone involved in providing the prizes to expect the worst and hope for the best. That is, I would want the people involved to be expecting a loss from this, not a profit. This project would be entirely for Vintage, and breaking even would be an afterthought.

[Tha Gunslinga]

I'd be there.

[Godder]

Now that it's posted here, maybe you'll get a few PMs from some better-off players who are keen to sponsor the event, even if anonymously. Also, sell dealer space - an event this size should carry a decent premium for dealer booths.

[God_Campbell]

I would be willing to Donate to the prize pool Rich, and I love this idea, and I think perhaps August would be a poor choice, what with Gencon the same month, perhaps in September, or June/July.

[Nefarias]

What DA said, but I'm pretty sure with vacation time and whatnot I'd have a pretty easy time controlling the factors he mentioned, though you never know.

A couple of things:

I've never really understood the unpowered and budget prizes when proxies are involved. I've always felt like it's just taking away from the main prize pool while encouraging people to play bad decks just to try to get those aforementioned prizes. I can't really recall the last time I've seen someone play a deck that fits either or those requirements at a Vintage event that allowed proxies. Even if someone casually wants to play their Type 2 deck, it would be made better with a Lotus and some Moxen, so making them play a inferior version of their deck has always struck me as odd. Anyone in the running for that subset of prize is probably competing only for those and not for the main structure, which seems like a poor experience.

Also, this is spoken like a true greedy American, but do you think having it in Canada could affect attendance based solely on the fact that many attendees would need a passport? I know that there's plenty of time to obtain one, but people generally procrastinate and are lazy.

[Shock Wave]

Thanks for the replies. A few things:

- August does seem like a poor month, given Gencon. I would probably lean to having this before Gencon then, in either June or July.
- Would this get more or less support as a result of being sanctioned? The prizes for budget/unpowered decks would only be provided if the tournament were sanctioned. Otherwise, I agree that it would not make sense.

I guess one of the important questions to ask is: How do American players feel about playing in a sanctioned Vintage event? If the event were sanctioned, would that dissuade players from attending?

Regarding the issue of having the event in Canada, I do not think there is a way to work around this, outside of having somebody else organize and run this event in the US.

[Demonic Attorney]

I guess one of the important questions to ask is: How do American players feel about playing in a sanctioned Vintage event? If the event were sanctioned, would that dissuade players from attending?

Certainly yes.  You have to remember that Vintage has declined in popularity over the last 2 years or so in many parts of the U.S.  A number of Vintage players have sold off most/all of their cards, and would need proxies in order to play any deck at all, much less a remotely competitive one.  More significantly, I'd estimate that half the players who regularly participate in New England Vintage tournaments (one of the closest regions to Canada geographically, so one that you would be in a position to draw heavily upon) don't own full power.  Sanctioning would be a huge barrier to their participation.  Lastly, proxies allow Vintage events to pull in Legacy players who are curious about the format or excited about big payouts.  Without proxies, they'd need to invest $2,000+ to try out Vintage; that's obviously not going to happen.

[Marske]

@Shockwave,
Man, if you pull of a huge event like this I might even consider flying out to Canada for it... Great initiative either way !!

[God_Campbell]

I definatley think proxies are a must for this proposed event, it just would not work with out them.

[Killane]

I'll be there. 100% if it's somewhere within NA and I have time to get a passport. Maybe I'm being complete newb, but what is the location?

[yangtime]

I think that the biggest hurdle for those of us in the States is knowing about the tournament well enough in advance to get passports.  I know that there are very few of us gamers in Cleveland, OH with valid passports.  In any case, I'd be down for a large tournament.

July 31 - August 1 is Grand Prix Columbus and August 5 - 8 is GenCon Indy so perhaps late June or early July is better?

How likely is this tournament going to happen?  I'll start spreading the hype around here and pushing for valid passports.  Also, will there be any feeder tournaments for this thing?

[God_Campbell]

I'll be there. 100% if it's somewhere within NA and I have time to get a passport. Maybe I'm being complete newb, but what is the location

It would most likley be in the Greater Toronto area more then likley, as this is where Rich lives, it would be able to draw from Montreal, and surrounding areas.

[ReAnimator]

I think having it in Canada as opposed to somewhere just on the other side of the border is a mistake. I think there are a lot more magic playing Canadians with passports than Americans. Being close to NE and Montreal seems less important now a days compared to 3 or more years ago, their scenes are a shadow of their former selves from what i understand.

All that being said, i'll dust off my vintage and play in this for sure, and if for whatever reason i can't play, i will donate to the prize pool, maybe even both.

[JACO]

I think for most people with the financial means to get there it will come down to whether or not the weekend is available to them. I have a passport and would certainly attend provided it's on a weekend that works with my schedule at the time (whatever that may be).

Also, you've got mail. Holla at me.

[T00L]

I'd be interested in something like this if it wasn't for the fact I do not possess a passport

[MirariKnight]

Depending when it is I would try my hardest to get there. The only reason I couldn't would be if it interferes with school.

[LordHomerCat]

I don't have a passport, but I would definitely try to get one and find a way to attend.

[Yare]

Just so you guys know, first time passports cost $100 and require 4-6 weeks to be processed. More details (including required documentation) below:

US Department of State - Passports

Edit: Oh, apparently they have "passport cards" now where you can pay $45 instead. It's only usable at land crossings and nearby seaports though, not for international flights.

[MirariKnight]

If it helps anyone I got an "enhanced driver's license" by paying $30, which lets me go to Mexico, Canada and some Caribbean countries without a passport. I'm not sure if it's a New York thing, but that's definitely the cheapest way to do it.

[Prospero]

If it helps anyone I got an "enhanced driver's license" by paying $30, which lets me go to Mexico, Canada and some Caribbean countries without a passport. I'm not sure if it's a New York thing, but that's definitely the cheapest way to do it.

I would definitely do something like that too, especially because I have to change the address on my license anyways.

@Shockwave - this sounds like an incredible event and I would certainly go and work to bring at least one full car load of New Yorkers.  Work out what you have to on your end and let us all know.  If it happens, I'll start planning now.

[honestabe]

Shockwave, I'm not trying to discourage you, but if this event were in America, I feel like you could get a lot more people to go.  Granted, I'm sure the older, more financialy sound Vintage community would go regardless, but the poor highschool/college players like myself can't justify going to another country to play Magic, when books alone cost me $600 this semester.  If this was anywhere in New England (with the exception of very northern Maine) I'd make every effort to go, but Canada just seems too far...

Anyways, Good Luck

[The M.E.T.H.O.D]

Shockwave the most concentrated groups of vintage players are NE, NY/Philly Area, Northern Midwest (columbus to michigan), and California...so you should plan your location accordingly. Being Canadian it would probably feel wierd holding your blowout tourney in the States but it probably is a good idea. More canadian magic players have passports and you can convince your local community to support/come along wherever you host the event.

Ray might be the best source for advice on this type of thing.

Another way to defer costs is letting multiple dealers set up at your event. I'd contact Pete or one of the tmd user/vendors that exist on our boards like Nick Coss, ELD, Jeff Anand..etc. Or maybe getting sponsorship from somewhere. You just have to try your hardest to reduce your costs so the prizes are more feasable and reduce your risks.

The payout for the tournies are insane and if you extend the payout a couple places lower (even with 5-20) dollar cards I think you can skimp on side events and other random prizes (if you were planning any) and reduce more of your costs. Honestly with your theoretical payout for the main event there really shouldn't be any need to add other stuff to make your event looking appealing.

I don't see any problem for myself spending money getting to a tourney like this no matter where it is located because its would obviously be sooo worth it...but it might not be the case for other people.

EDiT: you said the cards were from your personal collection...you own all that stuff? (including 3 loti) 

[Juggernaut GO]

Rochester was a pretty decent location, like 6 hrs from Connecticut but sort of in the middle of everything.  That might be a consideration.

[Shock Wave]

Rochester was a pretty decent location, like 6 hrs from Connecticut but sort of in the middle of everything.  That might be a consideration.

I was thinking the same. I am not sure what the best location would be to host such an event, but I would like to get everyone's ideas about what the most ideal locations would be.

One problem with hosting the event in the US, from a personal standpoint, is how legal issues become a factor (or if they even do at all). Would I need a special permit to host this event in the US? Would I need to pay tax on it? Would I need to make any declarations at the border? These are all issues I don't need to worry about if I host the event in my home country.

I am open to the possibility of hosting this in the US, but I am concerned about the potential legal ramifications and complications that it may cause. It seems to make more sense that if this event were to be run in the US, that somebody else take the reigns, unless we can get all the legal angles clarified.

[Smmenen]

Rich:

A couple of thoughts on the prize pool.

First, people like to have Black Lotus at first place.  It's symbolic.  You win a big vintage tournament, you win black lotus.

Second, I think you could maximize attendance by distributing more of that prize pool downward.   It looks way too topheavy.  Look at my blog where I talk about alternative large scale Vintage prize pools.

On the Canada/ US thing, might it be difficult for US players to get into Canada?  Will they need a passport?   I doubt most Magic players have passports.   

[Almighty]

What's the possibility of luring europeans to the event?

[Bera]

Rich:

A couple of thoughts on the prize pool.

First, people like to have Black Lotus at first place.  It's symbolic.  You win a big vintage tournament, you win black lotus.

Second, I think you could maximize attendance by distributing more of that prize pool downward.   It looks way too topheavy.  Look at my blog where I talk about alternative large scale Vintage prize pools.

On the Canada/ US thing, might it be difficult for US players to get into Canada?  Will they need a passport?   I doubt most Magic players have passports.   

As of '08 I believe you need a passport to cross any US border, I know it's like that when crossing US->Mexico border at least.

[Smmenen]

Rich:

A couple of thoughts on the prize pool.

First, people like to have Black Lotus at first place.  It's symbolic.  You win a big vintage tournament, you win black lotus.

Second, I think you could maximize attendance by distributing more of that prize pool downward.   It looks way too topheavy.  Look at my blog where I talk about alternative large scale Vintage prize pools.

On the Canada/ US thing, might it be difficult for US players to get into Canada?  Will they need a passport?   I doubt most Magic players have passports.   

As of '08 I believe you need a passport to cross any US border, I know it's like that when crossing US->Mexico border at least.

Yeah, if you need a passport, then you can kiss away any large US contingent.   US Passports are expensive and time consuming to acquire.   I have one, but my is probably nearly expired.