2010 Worldgorger Dragon

[lettable]

since recent unrestrictions of such cards as entomb, chrome mox, and cunning wish, worldgorger dragon decks have thrived but still is faced with the label calling it a broken card and mass hate among players . but lets face it. its super easy to disrupt a worldgorger deck I.E.: naturalize, disenchant, swords to plowshares, FoW, misdirection, duress, counterspell, boomerang, snap etc... but this still isnt going to stop people from making a badass fast paced combo deck. i have played worldgorger deck in blue red and black but that was stolen from me years back. since then i have just started playing again and have realized how powerful gorgers potential has become. this is a list of my worldgorger deck that has been cut down to just blue and black.


Note: this is a deck which contains no power 9. dual lands should be added, but this is for the players who are not lucky enough to have those sweet expensive 5 star lands :-p

Main deck:
Worldgorger Dragon x 4
Animate Dead          x 4
Dance of the Dead   x 4
Careful Study           x 4
Dark Ritual               x 4
Entomb                  x 4
Duress                    x 3
Pact of Negation      x 3
Cunning Wish          x 3
Merchant Scroll        x 1
Mystical Tutor          x 1
Demonic Tutor         x 1
Vampiric Tutor         x 1
Brainstorm               x 1
Ponder                   x 1
Chrome Mox            x1
Sol Ring                  x 1
Mana Crypt              x 1
Lotus Petal               x1
Mox Diamond            x1
Read the Runes        x 1

Lands:
Underground River x 4
Watery Grave        x 2
Piranha Marsh        x 4
Swamp                 x 2
Island                   x 3

Side Board:
Necromancy             x 2
Buried Alive              x 2
Duress                     x 1
Pact of Negation       x 1
Stroke of Genius       x 1
Whisper of the muse x 1
Null Rod                   x 2 

( if you want to add Underground Seas i would just take out some basic lands , also Polluted Delta is quite good)

so your main kill in this deck is Cunning Wish. Just pull a Stroke of Genius and deck the person out, but also piranha marsh is a finisher because its a land and it cant be countered and you dont have to build up mana for it. it just bounces and kills . i have been thinking of sideboarding an entomb and adding a fourth cunning wish so i could wish an entomb into play. you should notice the very small amount of land in this deck. it can survive pretty much off 2 lands. its a solid third turn win with a counter. its easy to acquire because it can be used without power nine and dual lands.

this isnt a final deck but it puts up a worthy battle i would appreciate suggestions for this . open for any suggestions!

[uroman]

I've been piecing together a WGD deck and like the way this list is going. I really like the idea of using Piranha Marsh. Splash in a few crop rotations and this could be a viable kill condition. I could see this in Emperor and Chaos style tournaments too.  I've also found Misdirection to be a better counter card than Pact of Negation. It is a bit more affordable (money wise) than FoW and can do things like target an opponents creature or graveyard by redirecting a Swords to Plowshares or Ebony Charm.

[Worldslayer]

Even in a budgeted build, Force of Will should be included over Pact. At last check, Forces were ~25-30, meaning even a "budget" player can feasibly nab a playset. The fact that they're general purpose staples as opposed to the much less used Pact should pretty much be the nail in the coffin.

Necromancy was one of the best spells in the deck, allowing you to go off at instant speed in response to them doing something bad, like popping Tormod's Crypt or Relic of Progenitus.

I get that Entomb is fast and low cmc, but it also leads you to bad decisions like running Pirahna Marsh x 4. Why not run Intuition instead, as it's not too far away in price from Entomb these days (thanks to Legacy) and finds your entire win rather than just a dragon. This let's you find dragon x 3, or dragon dragon pirahna marsh for untap -> win, three animate effects in case you can't find one, etc... It's infinitely more versatile, and coupled with another win or two (Oona, Caller of the Claw, Iona, etc...) and Necromancy can allow you to win EOT/at instant speed if necessary. That seems pretty good. This would also let you scale/cut the Cunning Wish plan, which is only good when you're already comboing, while Intuition is good pre- and post- combo.

Compulsion isn't bad for more drawn out games, but that's really up to you.


Overall I do think Dragon is strong, even budgeted (in the right meta, of course), and a decent choice for low level starter metagames (better than goblin chariot.dec, at any rate). However, the only real reason to play it over, say, Oath (equally budgetable, trash thrasing, and susceptible to roughly the same if not less hate) is the fact that it CAN win instant speed, meaning any small opening can be turned into a W. Making the whole thing sorcery speed means there's no reason to play Worldgorger Dragon over, say, Hellkite and Iona.

[lettable]

personally i realy like the idea of pirhana marsh too i mean you cant counter a land and its the finisher. i almost forgot that theres going to be a lot more disruption than i thought, but pact of negation its a good counter pretty much ONLY for the game winning spell(in this case cunning wish or wisper of the muse). but i would assume if they see gorger in the graveyard or if it even gets there they would go for the animate spell. so i really like the idea of misdirections. using crop rotation would be awesome but i think if your going green you would just use xantid swarms. and make it green black. but i dont know if that can hold up to the vicious counters and removal.


i was wondering why people loved necromancy in this deck so much and thanks for clearing that up for me haha. so i think just take out some animate deads and throw in 3 necromancys. right now i am only running 2 entombs, and yes the prices on them have skyrocketed. i also really like the idea of intuitions. but again they are pricey, but necessary. but i cant remember if they are restricted.
Making the whole thing sorcery speed means there's no reason to play Worldgorger Dragon over, say, Hellkite and Iona.
i'm not quite sure what you meant by sorcery speed. i thought you had to play an instant while gorger was bouncing. i also dont get how iona helps this situation . or how you can play creatures for the win. dont they have to be in play already while the combo is going off ?

also ravenous trap sucks too.

[zeus-online]

This deck would get crushed....Also there's alot of curios cards in it...
3 duress? Definetly four. Merchant scroll without force or ancestral is a no-go.
Why 1 chrome mox and 1 mox diamond? Pick the best one for the deck and play four, it's legal. I understand that piranha marsh is a win condition...but honestly CIPT lands sucks in T1 and this one is no exception. I'd also cram 4 rituals into it if i where to play it. Intuition or buried alive would also be good...And if it's buried alive, add oona or something to actually kill the opponent, it's cleaner then cunning wish and faster. You should definetly add some bounce spells, chain of vapour or echoing truth to deal with graveyard hate.

Other then that you could try sadistic sacrament as an alternative win-condition.

[lettable]

Zues-online: i am working this deck and as i stated it wasnt complete, but i'm working with what i got!, so yes i'm running 2 entombs 2 buried alive 1 intuition because i think its restricted. also thought-seize has been catching my eye recently. i dont think i'm actually understanding gorger as much as i thought so can you clear this up for me. to use the creature kill, do you just get to attach the enchantment to the other creature whenever you want or do you need to animate spells. also can gorger be used in any other format ? i like the bounce spells idea as back up. but i dont get the sadistic sacrament win ?

[zeus-online]

The vintage restrict list:

http://www.wizards.com/Magic/TCG/Resources.aspx?x=judge/resources/sfrvintage

Run 4 buried alive or intuition. Thoughtseize is really good if you can afford it...I would run 4 of those in addition to duress. Pact of negation is fine in many ways, but it can't stop that tormod's crypt that's about to stop you....Thus force of will is much better, but due to the requirement of having lots of blue cards to support i'd probably go with 4 duress, 4 thoughtseize, 2-3 bounce spells (Chain of vapour/echoing truth)

worldgorger dragon is only legal in vintage. Also you get to run the loop as many times as you desire (Simply choose a number) and then when you're done you get to attach your animate spell to the other creature. The combo makes every permanent "jump" in and our of play:

Dragon in the yard, animate on the stack:

You attach the animate spell to the dragon and thus the dragon comes into play triggering it's first ability "When Worldgorger Dragon enters the battlefield, exile all other permanents you control." the as a result of this the animate is removed and thus the dragon get's put into the graveyard triggering it's 2nd ability "When Worldgorger Dragon leaves the battlefield, return the exiled cards to the battlefield under their owners' control." and this returns the animate spell and allows you to choose the dragon or some other creature...Usually the dragon. Everytime lands enter you can tap them for mana again and thus you have infinite mana. At the end of all these loops the kill is usually attaching it to some creature with a mana ability that can win the game (Oona being the best currently) This is also why bazaar dragon is one of the best builds since bazaar lets you cycle through your entire deck to find oona and then win.

Sadistic sacrament is very good against a number of decks in vintage, since they don't run more then 3 cards that can actually kill you!

Tezzeret has: Time vault/Key (Remove the vault) Tezzeret himself, some tinker-target (Sphinx or inkwell leviathan seems to be the most popular) and often some number of dark confidants.
Storm decks usually have 1-2 tendrils (Ad nauseam usually has 3 though) some of them feature the tinker-robot aswell.
Oath usually has between 1 and 2 creatures (Hellite, akroma or iona seems to be the most popular)

[lettable]

oh wow so intuition isn't even restricted, that is so good. thoughtseize is not as expensive as force but i guess it would be worth throwing in regardless. i am gonna have to play around with some cards now. so i like the idea of chain of vapor better than echoing truth but i could always sideboard it. the oona kill is so clean i am going to have to take out like merchant scroll and cunning wishes. the creature kill used with buried alive and intuition makes entomb basdically useless. (which irritates me).  but this is a lot of help and i'll be sure to post a new decklist in the near future !

We're always pleased to see new members contribute and get useful ideas out of TMD, but we also ask that all members take a little time to use capitals.
-Godder

[TheShop]

Maybe someone has already voiced this idea-

Is the unrestriction of crop rotation relavent to this deck?  It acts as Bazaar 4-8, can be played with entomb, and allows you to win when in hand and the combo has been activated by getting bazaar(deck to yard after accumulating infinite mana).   8 spells that put dragon in thd yard and also cause a win when he has already been animated seems like a high #. 

[shroomy2dope]

i've wanted to play crop rotate in dragon for a long time especially with orchard for the oath transformation. however it's never managed to yeild positive results for me. the extra tutor slots seem to slow the clock about a turn. i've usually opted for finding cards that win in multiple scenarios, instead of playing cards that consume mana and fetch cards that win in a set scenario. dragon is aiming to win in the first 3 turns.
crop roation does hit bazzar which is free to play for the win and the pitch, however rotate costs 1, and animate costs 2 ,which means you have to produce 3 mana and you only get 2 land drops before bazaar and one of those mana has to be green. this is all turn 3.
if you want to win on turn 2 with rotate you have to find 3 mana with only 1 land drop before bazaar and you have to produce a green.
this also limits your abbility to cast disruption before you combo. i currently run 4 black tutors in my build that hit any card, but only because they're black, meaning i can cast them off ritual. if the same cards were blue i would probably not play them in dragon.
crop rotation is tempting but it just doesn't fit.

[TheShop]

What the deck needs to win in 3 turns is: 1) a reliable way to get dragon in yard,  2) animate dead/dance of the dead, 3) a way to win.

So if you were to run:
4 entomb
4 crop rotation
4 dragon
imperial seal
vamp
demo

4 animate dead
4 dance of the dead
3-4 dark ritual

2x win condition

8 mox/lotus/petal/crypt
4 Bazaar
4 gemstone mine
4 orchard


I have not finished the list, but I wonder why you would run Intuition or Read the Runes (mana intensive before Dragon is in play), instead of running lots of copies of the cheaper tutors + Bazaar.  So far, my list gives you 11 ways to have animate and 11 ways to dragon.  To put this in perspective, Flash ran 12 (4 flash, 4 scroll, demo, vamp, imp seal, mystical) ways to get flash and 11 ways to get protean hulk.

You only need 1 land drop other than Bazaar to win the game (if you need Bazaar at all) because you can ritual into your 3 mana, then use dragon to go infinite off a land that taps for 5 colors and do whatever you want.

This is kind of a fringe idea, but what about running a single Riftstone Portal because it allows you to win with no lands other than bazaar if you go off with just lotus or lotus petal.  Also, this would allow you to tap the bazaar for green and rotate it into a useful land if necessary.

EDIT-  I threw this together on Lackey and it has been goldfishing turn 1-2 average.  However, this is just in-your-face combo...not a single card to protect the combo.  But about 40% of goldfishing has been turn 1.  Maybe there is something to drop to run Pact.  Another problem is that Riftstone Portal only allows you to win with conditions requiring colorless mana...meaning Ambassador Laquatus (which is a little weak considering Oona exists).  I know that in real life you want to protect the combo, but this is nearly as quick as flash, which makes me happy.

[shroomy2dope]

this is my list.

4 worldgorger dragon
1 caller of the claw
artifacts(5)
1 black lotus
1 lotus petal
1 mox saphire
1 mox jet
1 mana crypt
enchantments(7)
4 animate dead
3 dance of the dead
1 necromancy
instants(19)
4 dark ritual
4 entomb
4 read the runes
2 cunning wish
1 demonic consultation
1 vampiric tutor
1 ancestral recall
1 brainstorm
sorcery(7)
4 thoughtseize
1 demonic tutor
1 imperial seal
land(17)
4 bazaar of baghdad
4 forbidden orchard
1 polluted delta
4 underground sea
4 misty rainforest
1 gemstone mine

my fish yields run like yours.
i assume were you insert rotate i insert thoughtseize, which isn't only utilized for disruption. turn 1 ritual,seize,animate is a strong tempo boost.
it adds for another reliable option over entomb animate and takes dependance off bazaar.

rotate is good but in the face of so many card options it isn't optimal. you have to have some protection or you just won't win. redundancy and necromancy help, but some times you need a counter or duress effect to go anywhere game1.

what are the additional 11 cards you fish with off your partial list?  recall is an auto include. it can open a turn one discard step to pitch WGD.

riftstone portal is an option but i wouldnt yard it unless bazaar was already in play. then i wouldn't need green or white. only black and blue. unless you mean to rotate off my bazaar for a mana producing land, but bazaar would already be tapped and could not produce the green that R.P. allows. so i guess i'm not really following that.

I'm starting to think you play rotate like i play runes. to find the win once infinant.
both of these cards do something else when compared. rotae finds a bazaarpre-combo and runes pitches gorge/draws for mana pre-combo. i guess it's a judgement call from ther more than likely based upon the rest of the repsective build more than the cards themselves.

[fury]

Hi all,

Since 3 years I play Dragon, I don't think a full speed combo version of the WGD combo is efficient. The field is so diversified that Dragon needs actually flexibility against any archetype. So I wonder how a Dark Ritual, Entomb, Buried Alive version could resist most of the archetypes of the metagame. I think the best approach is a WGDX version, with a proper splash to handle the main threats.

Today what are the main issues ? Gravehate is still present because of the resistance of Ichorid as a potential top8 deck. The controlling stuff is also very used in a lot of builds. And the metagame has slowed down, with a more aggro/aggro hate dimension.

So the issues of any WGD build should be, according to me, the following : handle instant spells and effects, and static permanents effects

Some solutions :

 

• Disrupting the opponent is not enough, as a single permanent can stop the combo (Leyline, Qasali, Tormod's Crypt, and so on)
• Only countering stuff cannot handle the hate which is already present on the board. Moreover, controlling stuff takes slots in the build at the expense of combo pieces
• Former versions of Dragon used both of the protection, disruption and countering spells to pass the combo. This was useful to stop instant spells or annoying permanents, but more rarely hate effects (like Qasali, once it is on the table). But I wonder if we couldn't add another way to handle this by incluing a card which has been not often used in WGD build : Abeyance. I have tested it, and it seems to safe the combo, at the expense of more mana and tempo.

So the list could be something like this :

1  Flooded Strand
        1  Swamp
        1  Tundra
        2  Island
        3  Polluted Delta
        4  Bazaar of Baghdad
        4  Underground Sea
        1  Oona, Queen of the Fae
        1  Eternal Witness
        4  Worldgorger Dragon
        1  Black Lotus
        1  Mana Crypt
        1  Mana Vault
        1  Mox Emerald
        1  Mox Jet
        1  Mox Pearl
        1  Mox Ruby
        1  Mox Sapphire
        1  Sol Ring
        1  Dance of the Dead
        3  Animate Dead
        3  Necromancy
        1  Ancestral Recall
        1  Vampiric Tutor
        3  Read the Runes
        4  Force of Will
        4  Intuition
        1  Demonic Tutor
        3  Deep Analysis
        1  Time Walk
        4  Duress

SB:  1  Tropical Island
SB:  3 Engineer's Explosives
SB:  4  Chain of Vapor
SB:  1 Tinker
SB:  1 Triplet Sen
SB:  4  Abeyance
SB : free slot

[zeus-online]

Your list is pretty close to what i would run...I don't see the point in eternal witness when you've got oona though...I'd much rather have a bounce spell or a cunning wish in that spot...Also i really like 4 DA's in bazaar dragon.

I just don't think dragon can really compete aslong as everyone's SB is stacked with anti-dredge cards.

[shroomy2dope]

it's nice to hear from a player that has been playing WGD as lond as i have. i've seen you post on other deagon threads i was wondering if you were going to pick up these newer ones.
abeyance sounds like a good call to me. there has been times when i wanted an orims chant but i never quite thought about abeyance.
i was more curious about the sen triplets in the board. what matches does this see play in?

you stated you did not beleive the speed versions of WGD could yield results. This is a fair statement. have you ever ran an ANT build?  the ritual dragon lists play something like this game 1. your trying to increase your odds of drawing into a turn 1 kill. this requires minimizing mana consuming draw spells, spells with only one function, and protection that is usually needed beyound turn2.
however, this is were the beauty lies, post board the deck gains strength. i play 3 pithing needle, 2 chain of vapor, and 1 echoing truth that come in mandatory evey match. on top of 4 maindeck thoghtseize and 4 tutors, the deck stands a legitimate chance at controling all neccessary threats. not to mention the 4 leyline, hurkylls recall ,and tormods crypt i run for hate. i also have the option of wishing for a counter mid combo. that's a fair amount of control for a deck that has the ability to get a turn 1-2 win even post board on a lucky draw.
post board rituals near always come out. speed is not the goal in those games ritual dragon is only built for speed in game 1.

i beleive the most underestimated factor is the decks tendancy to win off a lone land.

anyways, i like your list, do you ever find yourself wishing that one of those chain of vapors was an echoing truth?
i was also wodering about mystical tutor not making the cut? i know you draw a lot of cards, but post board i figured you would need to see some tutor power with the grave hate knocking out the better part of intuition/DA's draw ability.
has this not been a problem?

[merfolkOTPT]

I am thinking that the early dismissal of pact is a mistake in the current talk in this thread. 

My main concern with Pact in the past was is if there were a way to win with a pact trigger on the stack (without needing to play 5 color lands) and having no bazaar in play.  Piranha marsh gives us a way to do this in any color combination, we only need a way to get it in to play, enter Crop Rotation, which has obviously been discussed a bit already.  It still is not ideal, in the best case we would have a win condition that wins right now, i.e. at instant speed, and only has to be in UB(g) that is reanimated, which to my knowledge we still do not have, but a way to win at instant speed is exciting, and means that Pact can be used not just as a protection spell but as a counter for first turn plays of the opponent given the right hand.

[fury]

Hi,

abeyance sounds like a good call to me. there has been times when i wanted an orims chant but i never quite thought about abeyance.

I have heavily tested both Orim's chant and Abeyance, and I now consider that Abeyance is superior, because it stops activated abilities (which are a large part of the hate effects against Dragon) and the draw (self-replacement). Even if its more mana expensive ...

i was more curious about the sen triplets in the board. what matches does this see play in?

Actually, I don't think it's a definitive choice, and I still don't know if I would include it in a tournament. But I have noticed that against random control archetype, this creature fears the opponent. Indeed, once it is Tinkered or reanimated, its effect is viewed as very dangerous for the opponent's hand. So they often try to spend resources to destroy Sen, leaving a way for the WGD combo. If Sen stays on the table, it is generally speaking the end of the game.

The drawback is that it is difficult to cast it alone, without a reanimation spell or a tinker. So it could be a little overkill, and we should consider more classic strategies, like Inkwell Leviathan, Darksteel Colossus and so on.

Did anyone has tested Sen in WGD builds ?

you stated you did not beleive the speed versions of WGD could yield results. This is a fair statement. have you ever ran an ANT build?  the ritual dragon lists play something like this game 1. your trying to increase your odds of drawing into a turn 1 kill. this requires minimizing mana consuming draw spells, spells with only one function, and protection that is usually needed beyound turn2.
however, this is were the beauty lies, post board the deck gains strength. i play 3 pithing needle, 2 chain of vapor, and 1 echoing truth that come in mandatory evey match. on top of 4 maindeck thoghtseize and 4 tutors, the deck stands a legitimate chance at controling all neccessary threats. not to mention the 4 leyline, hurkylls recall ,and tormods crypt i run for hate. i also have the option of wishing for a counter mid combo. that's a fair amount of control for a deck that has the ability to get a turn 1-2 win even post board on a lucky draw.
post board rituals near always come out. speed is not the goal in those games ritual dragon is only built for speed in game 1.

I agree that the first game should be good for full speed versions of Dragon. It can be a real surprise for the opponent, and few players packs a lot of hate in their main deck. The problem is to resist against the hate and the very high possibilities of opponents' sideboard. I understand that you made the effort to counter the hate after the first game, but you did it at a high speed price. And sideboarding with a speed version is a poorer strategy than keeping a strong drawing version of Dragon, like WGDX, which makes less one turn kills, but assure the turn 3-4 with backup throughout the hate.

i beleive the most underestimated factor is the decks tendancy to win off a lone land.

I totally agree, that's why dicemanx and his friends designed WGDX, replacing cards that are dependent to bazaar by more drawing/digging/discarding stuff. The core of the deck is 4 Intuition, 3 Read The Runes, and 3-4 Deep Analysis.It can run without bazaar, and is more powerful with it.

anyways, i like your list, do you ever find yourself wishing that one of those chain of vapors was an echoing truth?

It was in a metagame where Empty the Warrens was heavily played. But we can replace Echoing truth by Chain of Vapor or Repeal without problems.

i was also wodering about mystical tutor not making the cut? i know you draw a lot of cards, but post board i figured you would need to see some tutor power with the grave hate knocking out the better part of intuition/DA's draw ability.
has this not been a problem?

if the opponent uses its graveyard hate to stop Deep analysis, he opens a way for the combo. So generally speaking, the opponent will wait until a Dragon is in the graveyard to remove the grave as soon as a reanimation spell is played.

We could consider, indeed, more tutor cards. But I would consider Imperial Seal before mystical tutor. A tutor is useful to find a combo card, not a drawing card.

[shroomy2dope]

good post fury. let me add on a few points.

yard hate
i was not only speaking of activated abilities and instant speed effects here. you must also consider the replacement effect from leyline or the triggered abillity from planar void. these both shut down our combo and our ability to use DA to draw into a solution.

speed
it is a tempo sacrifice to cut 9 mana accelerants post board, but there are still a couple of available second turn wins beyond that point, and frequent 3-4 turn wins with a duress back up or a double animate.
 is that really subpar to a teir 1 deck post board? what does tps or ant do there? hold a force instead of animate #2?

control measures
 has anyone actually tested the control options that entomb presents? with 4 entomb and 4 tutors the power of a single ancient grudge or ray of revelation is quite accessable.
this is pretty, leyline/crypt/relic, proof.
in addition to disruption and post board bounce you gain a nice protection wall.
also consider this. a player will duress your force or chain. who calls entomb?

sen triplets
sen is a fun card. i used to play it in edh. i've usually went without second reanimation targets because if i get the animate off i usually just want the draw. but if i was to put the extra creature in i would call platinum angel. i added one to my SCV and it raised the dredge wins, fish wins, and combo wins.

it seems the point of differance revolves around
4 force             4 thought seize
4 intuition    vs. 4 entomb
ring/moxen       4 ritual
3 DA                tutors

i would like to devise a gauntlet of decks and run both of these builds through it and note the differences. determine which cards or the lack there of, caused the wins or the losses.
it would make for an interesting study.
 

[fury]

Hi,

good post fury. let me add on a few points.

yard hate
i was not only speaking of activated abilities and instant speed effects here. you must also consider the replacement effect from leyline or the triggered abillity from planar void. these both shut down our combo and our ability to use DA to draw into a solution.

Of course. That's why any Dragon build packs some bounces (at least 4 Chain of Vapor) to manage triggers and static abilities. Planar Void is not really played, and even with it on the table, we can win. Leyline is a real problem, and we have to find a way to bounce it, destroy it or find an alternate strategy (Tinker-Robot, some aggro strategy like Tombstalker, for instance)

speed
it is a tempo sacrifice to cut 9 mana accelerants post board, but there are still a couple of available second turn wins beyond that point, and frequent 3-4 turn wins with a duress back up or a double animate.
 is that really subpar to a teir 1 deck post board? what does tps or ant do there? hold a force instead of animate #2?

Duress+2 animate spells are often enouhg against a classic control opponent. But against Fish archetypes, we have to take other threats into considerations : Stifle, Qasali, Meddling, and so on. That's why keeping only disruption and forcing the combo is not the right way against very-hateful builds.

control measures
 has anyone actually tested the control options that entomb presents? with 4 entomb and 4 tutors the power of a single ancient grudge or ray of revelation is quite accessable.
this is pretty, leyline/crypt/relic, proof.
in addition to disruption and post board bounce you gain a nice protection wall.
also consider this. a player will duress your force or chain. who calls entomb?

This strategy according to me, is costly in terms of cards. Destroying one opponent's permanent costs 2 cards and 2 manas (BG, entomb+AG or RofR). A bounce would be better here. And of Leyline is not played, I would rather use Abeyance, which prevents from any instant card or Tormod's/Relic's ability.

i would like to devise a gauntlet of decks and run both of these builds through it and note the differences. determine which cards or the lack there of, caused the wins or the losses.
it would make for an interesting study.

It's a good idea. Don't fear to post yours results here !

[Darth_Mox]

I too am a WGD player. Ever since I first got my butt kicked by it on Magic Workstation, I immediately thought "Wow, I gotta make this deck!". 5 years later, it is -still- my most hatred deck, because of how quick it can work, and how effective it can protect itself.

Personally, I use Blue and Black WGD. Now, I have not been able to get any other power cards besides the Lotus, so this is by no means a "completed" deck. I have other things in life I must pay for, and now that I am married it is becoming even more difficult to buy power.

Anyway, here it is:

Creatures: 6

4x Worldgorger Dragon
1x Oona, Queen of the Fae
1x Ambassador Laquatus

Lands/Accel: 22

4x Underground Sea
4x Watery Grave
4x Verdant Catacomb
4x Forbidden Orchard
1x Black Lotus
1x Lotus Petal
4x Dark Ritual

Spells:

Black Spells: 14
1x Entomb
3x Buried Alive
1x Demonic Tutor
1x Vampiric Tutor
3x Dance of the Dead
3x Animate Dead
1x Necromancy
1x Demonic Consultation

Blue Spells: 18
x1 Ponder
x3 Standstill
x1 Brainstorm
x3 Daze
x4 Force of Will
x3 Careful Study
x3 Read the Runes

Sideboard: 15
x4 Deathmark
x4 Stifle
x1 Echoing Truth
x3 Thoughtsieze
x3 Cabal Therapy

This deck worked great in the meta I played in for years. I like the control aspect more. And when I say that, I mean the ability to control whether or not my opponent can disrupt my combo. FoW and Daze are amazing for this because they are free. The card advantage in this deck is astronomical. I know a lot of people have been ditching standstill, but I feel it is a very viable card in this version of the WGD. Since the object of the counters and disruption in this deck is to keep -your- stuff from being countered, it works very nicely. This deck is capable of turn 1, but you will more likely see wins on your turns 2-4, all depending.

There you have it. Some cards, like Entomb, I run 1 of becuase when i made the deck, they were restricted. Now, they are no longer, but as of right now I do not have the funding to drop $40-$50 on 2-3 more. But, if you are able to spend the dollars, I would recommend replacing the Careful Studies with Bazaar of Baghdad, and the Buried Alives with Entomb. Just a few suggestions.

[Delha]

Nearly 20 replies, and no mention of Unmask? I played Dragon only in the tiny window where it was Extended legal, and remember that the nut draw was Unmask, Rit, Entomb, Animate. Even with Vintage upgrades, a free Thoughtseize still strikes me as worthwhile, especially when it doubles as a dragon outlet. Since everyone appears to be pushing fast builds (as opposed to Squee oriented CA builds), Unmask feels even more relevant.

[Darth_Mox]

Nearly 20 replies, and no mention of Unmask?

Where as Unmask is a nice card, I prefer the 1 cost Thoughtsieze. Why? The exiling of the black card. Unless your starting hand has either 2 Animate Dead/Dance of the Dead/Necromancy (or a combination of the 3) there really is no room to be ditching the black cards of my build. Your black cards comprise: Your win-con, your mana accel (I use dark rits since I do not own any moxen) and an aide to your win-con (Buried alive, Entomb).

Sure, Thoughtsieze has a cost of 1 opposed to Unmask only costing the removal of a card. But, you can also make someone ditch a land, which can be crucial, especially against a control deck. Making someone toss a dual land can sometimes seriously throw off their mojo (Of course, this is all depending upon if your enemy has a hand of no moxen/lotus. But still, I think you can catch my drift.)

Another thing to keep in mind is card advantage. Tossing two cards to make someone toss one can be effective, if say you make them toss a win-con or a much needed accel card. However, with that, you are also bringing your total hand-size to 4-5, assuming you play it from your opening hand.

I'm by no means saying Unmask is a bad card. In fact, quite the opposite, especially in a control deck. As for Unmask in WGD (primarily the one that I run) I would caution against it, and keep the Thoughtseize in the SB.

Edit:
You said that Unmask is an outlet for the dragon. Did you mean, you can use the WGD to pay for the cost of Unmask? If so, you are wrong on two accounts.

1: Unmask reads (oracle):
You may exile a black card from your hand rather than pay Unmask's mana cost.
Target player reveals his or her hand. You choose a nonland card from it. That player discards that card.

WGD is a red card, meaning you cannot use it to pay for Unmask's cost.

2.: Even if you could pay for Unmask's cost with WGD, it would be exiled, not put in a graveyard. As Dance of the Dead, Animate Dead, and Necromancy can only target a creature in a graveyard, you cannot use the exiled WGD for the win.

If you meant something else entirely, then I apologize for misinterpreting your words.

[jester3397]

I think he meant using Unmask to target yourself and then discard WGD.

[nineisnoone]

I wonder with the printing of Nature's Claim if WGD is in a good position for a comeback.  While there is tons of graveyard hate for Dredge, it does not hurt WGD nearly as much as Dredge does.  Not only would Nature's Claim protect you against a wide variety of graveyard hate, it also gives you out to Oath, Time Vault, and Shop decks.

If you maindeck 4 Claims as out to graveyard hate and keep Tinker and Time Valt as non-Graveyard win conditions, I think the deck is pretty well poised.  It's fast enough to keep up with a Tendrils deck, but as the longevity of a control deck.

Nearly 20 replies, and no mention of Unmask? I played Dragon only in the tiny window where it was Extended legal, and remember that the nut draw was Unmask, Rit, Entomb, Animate. Even with Vintage upgrades, a free Thoughtseize still strikes me as worthwhile, especially when it doubles as a dragon outlet. Since everyone appears to be pushing fast builds (as opposed to Squee oriented CA builds), Unmask feels even more relevant.

In general, I think Unmask is just a sub-optimal card.  It only works with Dredge because it's dredge.  I don't think combo-dragon would be fast enough as even ANT doesn't run it (I believe).

[nineisnoone]

So the list could be something like this :

1  Flooded Strand
        1  Swamp
        1  Tundra
        2  Island
        3  Polluted Delta
        4  Bazaar of Baghdad
        4  Underground Sea
        1  Oona, Queen of the Fae
        1  Eternal Witness
        4  Worldgorger Dragon
        1  Black Lotus
        1  Mana Crypt
        1  Mana Vault
        1  Mox Emerald
        1  Mox Jet
        1  Mox Pearl
        1  Mox Ruby
        1  Mox Sapphire
        1  Sol Ring
        1  Dance of the Dead
        3  Animate Dead
        3  Necromancy
        1  Ancestral Recall
        1  Vampiric Tutor
        3  Read the Runes
        4  Force of Will
        4  Intuition
        1  Demonic Tutor
        3  Deep Analysis
        1  Time Walk
        4  Duress

SB:  1  Tropical Island
SB:  3 Engineer's Explosives
SB:  4  Chain of Vapor
SB:  1 Tinker
SB:  1 Triplet Sen
SB:  4  Abeyance
SB : free slot

Is Deep Analysis really better than Life from the Loam + Bazaar?  You typically don't want to hardcast Deep Analysis anyways (guessing that's why Fury only runs 3).  Plus, Loam is a good counter for Wasteland, which hopefully would balance out the draw back against Wastelands by being 3 color.

More importantly it means you can run Tinker+Sphinx or Vault/Key in those spots. 

I think someone mentioned it, but I'm not sure why you are running 2 reanimate targets.  Just in case you FoW your Oona?

Also, I think Time Walk isn't that great here.  At least, it's not better than running an alternate win main deck.

[swawagon]

However with many Nature's Claim in the meta and the fact that it is excellent against Animate Dead, Dance of the Dead, and Necromancy — I think that with the printing of Nature's Claim it has actually made Dragon even worse to play at present. Because now Nature's Claim and graveyard hate can be brought in against Dragon. Nature's Claim also attacks many of the transformational Dragon sideboards, including Oath and TimeVault combo.

If you are playing Dragon and are running some number of Nature's Claim, however yes, I do agree they can hit some of the problem graveyard hate cards people play such as Leyline of the Void, Tormods' Crypt and Relic of Progenitus (but they can still activate them). And yes Nature's Claim can indeed kill opponents Oaths and Time Vaults, making it a great card.

But that fact that many Nature's Claims are in maindecks and sideboards everywhere (even taking into account they could be in your Dragon build's board), I don't think that makes Worldgorger Dragon as a deck any better to play right now.

Below is my most current list.

DRAGON

4 Worldgorger Dragon
1 Oona, Queen of the Fae
1 Mulldrifter
1 Squee

4 Force of Will
4 Intuition
4 Deep Analysis
3 Read the Runes
1 Repeal
1 Ancestral Recall

3 Animate Dead
1 Dance of the Dead
3 Necromancy

4 Duress
1 Entomb
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor

1 Black Lotus
5 Moxen
1 Mana Crypt

3 Underground Sea
1 Bayou
4 Polluted Delta
1 Bloodstained Mire
1 Swamp
1 Island
4 Bazaar of Baghdad

SB
3 Tormod's Crypt
1 Tropical Island
1 Timewalk
2 Chain of Vapor
2 Nature's Claim
4 Tarmogoyf
1 Tinker
1 Sphinx of the Steel Wind

[Delha]

Where as Unmask is a nice card, I prefer the 1 cost Thoughtsieze. Why? The exiling of the black card. Unless your starting hand has either 2 Animate Dead/Dance of the Dead/Necromancy (or a combination of the 3) there really is no room to be ditching the black cards of my build...

Your Dragon build (like most) is highly redundant, so having a duplicate animate or grave tutor is very likely.

Another thing to keep in mind is card advantage...

The point of Unmask is a speed build is to serve as FoW 5-8, which has exactly the same CA problem, but was included in your list anyway. Yes, Unmask has to be proactive rather than reactive, but in return it lets you know for certain that the path is clear before committing. Thoughtseize does the same thing, but often at the cost of a turn. Giving them extra time to topdeck/Scroll/Brainstorm/etc for an answer runs counter to primary function of the card.

Edit:You said that Unmask is an outlet for the dragon. Did you mean, you can use the WGD to pay for the cost of Unmask? If so, you are wrong on two accounts.

Jester3397 beat me to it.

If you maindeck 4 Claims as out to graveyard hate and keep Tinker and Time Valt as non-Graveyard win conditions, I think the deck is pretty well poised.  It's fast enough to keep up with a Tendrils deck, but as the longevity of a control deck.

What is it that makes you say it has longevity? Not being facetious here, I'm honestly not seeing it. Did you mean that the changes you suggest grant the deck a lot more resiliency? That I can certainly agree with.

In general, I think Unmask is just a sub-optimal card.  It only works with Dredge because it's dredge.  I don't think combo-dragon would be fast enough as even ANT doesn't run it (I believe).

Agreed that Unmask is generally suboptimal, and that combo dragon is probably slower than ANT. If one is dead set on running combo-Dragon though (which his build strikes me as), I would think that speed is key, in hopes of going off before they are capable of resolving hate. With Dredge making the presence of that hate all but assured, I'd very much want the extra protection.

[nineisnoone]

However with many Nature's Claim in the meta and the fact that it is excellent against Animate Dead, Dance of the Dead, and Necromancy — I think that with the printing of Nature's Claim it has actually made Dragon even worse to play at present. Because now Nature's Claim and graveyard hate can be brought in against Dragon. Nature's Claim also attacks many of the transformational Dragon sideboards, including Oath and TimeVault combo.

Nature's Claim doesn't cause Dragon to lose (all it's permanents) though.  So I don't particularly mind if they nuke a re-animate enchantment.  There are usually like 7 in the deck.  Going one-for-one is an uphill battle for the opponent, and not really all that different then if they ran X many more counters.  I don't really see a huge benefit to running Nature's Claim against Dragon than Spell Pierce for instance and it's worse than Chain of Vapor which has been in decks since it was printed.

Also although Nature's Claim hits dragon it's MUCH weaker against it than Vault/Oath.  Neither can win at instant speed.  Oath gives you a number of turns to deal with it and there are only 4.  Dragon is instant win, and there are 7.  Vault/Key there is only one pair and Yawgmoth's Will if they are countered.  You can simply go one-for-one, out draw then with a draw engine, and not to mention that you can win at instant speed meaning a Dragon in the yard with 3 mana means they have to keep mana open at all times.

The argument that Nature's Claim makes Dragon worse to me is more theoretical than actual.  It's sort of like there being a more dredge hate.  It seems like it'd make it worse, but it's never really made that big of a difference because it doesn't really offer anything new in terms of hating out Dragon, but it offers Dragon something new in protecting itself and fighting opponents.

If you maindeck 4 Claims as out to graveyard hate and keep Tinker and Time Valt as non-Graveyard win conditions, I think the deck is pretty well poised.  It's fast enough to keep up with a Tendrils deck, but as the longevity of a control deck.

What is it that makes you say it has longevity? Not being facetious here, I'm honestly not seeing it. Did you mean that the changes you suggest grant the deck a lot more resiliency? That I can certainly agree with.

Yeah, I mean to say Dragon has a draw engine and a resilient win condition so it can win an attrition battle and not simply flop to being countered.  

As I am imagining it, I'd like to add the Tinker and Time Vault win conditions.  On top of that, Loam and Academy Ruins.  

What can a control deck do against a resolved Intuition for Loam, Bazaar, Academy Ruins?  You can just keep dredging Loam back to your hand, so it's pointless to counter it.  The others are lands.  Loam + Bazaar means that you are drawing 2 extra cards a turn (provided you have the lands) and Loam + Ruins with Vault/Key means on top of dredging into your Dragon or just a reanimate target in general, you can also dredge into Vault/Key which are playable via Ruins.  

With as many (if not more) win conditions that Oath and a draw engine that is potentially better than Tezz, it's only weakness is graveyard hate which adding alternate wins works around.

In general, I think Unmask is just a sub-optimal card.  It only works with Dredge because it's dredge.  I don't think combo-dragon would be fast enough as even ANT doesn't run it (I believe).

Agreed that Unmask is generally suboptimal, and that combo dragon is probably slower than ANT. If one is dead set on running combo-Dragon though (which his build strikes me as), I would think that speed is key, in hopes of going off before they are capable of resolving hate. With Dredge making the presence of that hate all but assured, I'd very much want the extra protection.

I don't necessarily see the advantage of pushing it with Unmasked though.  Dragon isn't as bad as Dredge where it's hate=you lose, barring the stuff that makes you lose all your permanents.  And in that case, I think the advantage is fairly minimal.  

[Delha]

Nature's Claim doesn't cause Dragon to lose (all it's permanents) though.

Actually, it does exactly that. Dragon enters play, ETB trigger on stack. When you nuke the animate, Dragon's LTB trigger resolves, then the ETB resolves (taking all your permanents forever). If you're fighting through hate at all, you want it to be Grave hate, because disenchant/bounce/swords are all a complete blowout.

What can a control deck do against a resolved Intuition for Loam, Bazaar, Academy Ruins?  You can just keep dredging Loam back to your hand, so it's pointless to counter it.  The others are lands.  Loam + Bazaar means that you are drawing 2 extra cards a turn (provided you have the lands) and Loam + Ruins with Vault/Key means on top of dredging into your Dragon or just a reanimate target in general, you can also dredge into Vault/Key which are playable via Ruins.  

I don't think I like the logic behind this. Control decks have fits with a resolved Choke/City of Solitude too, but I certainly don't advocate running either of those. It kind of reminds me of the old sayings... EOTGIFTSGGYOULOSE. If you resolve Intuition against a control deck, things are probably going badly for them, no matter what deck you are running. It's also arguable that you should be going for Dragon/Animate, whichever it is you need more at the time.

Loam + Bazaar is really powerful, but I suspect that it's simply too slow and expensive. I think the resiliency is balanced out by the mana investment you are forced to make every turn, unlike say Jace + fetches, which has additional utility besides, and takes up only 1 slot (since the fetches are obv already in your manabase).

I don't necessarily see the advantage of pushing it with Unmasked though.  Dragon isn't as bad as Dredge where it's hate=you lose, barring the stuff that makes you lose all your permanents.  And in that case, I think the advantage is fairly minimal.

The answers which exile your board (as detailed above) are unfortunately quite broad categories though, and common to boot. Practically anything blue runs mainboard bounce. Everyone and their momma now runs Claim on the side. To top it off, everyone has a deep Dredge package to bring in, which likely slows you enough to dig up the irrecoverable answers.

[FlyFlySideOfFry]

Nature's Claim doesn't cause Dragon to lose (all it's permanents) though.  So I don't particularly mind if they nuke a re-animate enchantment.  There are usually like 7 in the deck.  Going one-for-one is an uphill battle for the opponent, and not really all that different then if they ran X many more counters.  I don't really see a huge benefit to running Nature's Claim against Dragon than Spell Pierce for instance and it's worse than Chain of Vapor which has been in decks since it was printed.

Also although Nature's Claim hits dragon it's MUCH weaker against it than Vault/Oath.  Neither can win at instant speed.  Oath gives you a number of turns to deal with it and there are only 4.  Dragon is instant win, and there are 7.  Vault/Key there is only one pair and Yawgmoth's Will if they are countered.  You can simply go one-for-one, out draw then with a draw engine, and not to mention that you can win at instant speed meaning a Dragon in the yard with 3 mana means they have to keep mana open at all times.

OK I'm sorry but I think you're grossly understating how good Nature's Claim is against WGD. How is removing all your permanents from the game+countering your win condition a one-for-one trade? I'm pretty sure counterspell+a one-sided apocalypse for one mana beats just countering an animate spell by miles. Comparing Dragon to Oath is laughable. Dragon hasn't been doing good since before Dredge, let alone now that it has to deal with Dredge hate+Oath hate.

What are your good matchups? Tendrils is faster and runs the same if not more protection, Dredge is faster game 1 and brings in 15 cards that bounce/naturalize/graveyard hate to deal with hate cards and the mirror so gl post-board, Oath is better in every possible way (doesn't cost cards to set up your win con, has flexible routes to victory, doesn't lose all its permanents if its win condition is countered, etc.), MUD eats you alive with your low permanent count and flimsy mana base, and Fish should be built to take down Oath and MUD and most cards that hit those 2 decktypes hit WGD as well.

What can a control deck do against a resolved Intuition for Loam, Bazaar, Academy Ruins?

Win the game? Counter Intuition? Give you Academy Ruins and out-draw you with Jace for like 4 turns while you spend all your mana casting LftL?

Dragon isn't as bad as Dredge where it's hate=you lose, barring the stuff that makes you lose all your permanents.  And in that case, I think the advantage is fairly minimal.

What? You clearly don't have a solid understanding of modern Dredge which can fight through like 5-6 hate pieces. Also how is casting like 5 Time Walks by RFGing your board while you blew your hand to set up the win a "minimal advantage"?

Seriously why are you acting as if WGD is some sort of unstoppable monster that has been overlooked by everyone? This deck hasn't been good in years and everyone else is running more inadvertent hate for it while Dragon is getting no new cards whatsoever. How does this translate into Dragon getting better?