The MUD Thread

[Mith]

I've cut Karn. Between the four Hellkites I run, munching Moxen isn't a problem. Also, I'm prefer Metalworker, so pumping out 6cc beaters isn't a problem. I've substituted the Karn slots with Sculpting Steel, which has been a nice all-purpose filler. I could easily see running Ratchet Bombs in that spot depending on the metagame.

For now, it's 4 Golem, 4 Hellkite, 4 Metalworker for my creature package. Wurmcoil is cute...but not needed maindeck. It's nice vs. Dredge, but I don't have room for it game 1.

[Bosaapje]

Yeah, that's what I propably gonna do. I don't really like Metalworker, I've got the Masticore in that spot with the 4 Sculpting Steel. I don't need the mana from Metalworker. I tested him in the very beginning, but it didn't work out. Then I got the Null Rod's mainboard and yeah, Worker becomes useless then.

Maybe I'm gonna try Ratchet Bomb mainboard, just 2 times for Engine. Because, the last few times I drawed him, I wasn't that happy with him. Or I couldn't play it, or I was already winning. Ofcourse, if you're winning, it's useless to draw a Bomb, but it's good to remove all the little crap on the field so you can go for gold and pulverise my opponent like I've always wanted to.

I've got only 1 spot left, maybe just a single Engine, or an extra Hellkite. We'll see,

Cheers,

Maarten

[madmanmike25]

I'm curious why you dont run Chalice of the Void.  Turn 1 Chalice at zero and Lodestone is such a strong play.  Chalice at 1 and 2 is also strong vs. so many decks out there.  I'm not saying you have to have them, but I can't see why you wouldn't want them.

[Bosaapje]

Oops, I forgot to put the CotV in my list. Well, here's the good list:


Mana:

1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mana Vault
1 Mana Crypt
1 Sol Ring
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Workshop
2 City of Traitors
4 Mishra's Factory
1 Strip Mine
4 Wasteland
1 Tolarian Academy

Creature:

4 Lodestone Golem
2 Razormane Masticore
3 Steel Hellkite
1 Wurmcoil Engine

Spheres and shizzle:

4 Sphere of Resistance
4 Tangle Wire
4 Chalice of the Void
2 Thorn of Amethyst
1 Trinisphere
4 Sculpting Steel
2 Ratchet Bomb

Sideboard:

4 Null Rod
3 Pithing Needle
3 Powder Keg
2 Tormod's Crypt
1 Relic of Progenitus
2 Crucible of Worlds

Yeah, I changed it a bit. I got rid of Karn (now finally), because, Hellkite is beter in my opinion. It flies, is also eats moxes, it's a better blocker. Ofcourse, if you block another Golem, you're both dead, but if Karn blocks a creature, it turns into a wall. Even if it's an 1/1, so that why I changed it. I've also removed 2 Engines and included 1 extra Hellkite. Why? Well, I don't actually know. My feeling about the deck wasn't that good, I didn't enjoy playing it anymore with 3 Hellkites and 3 Engines. I don't know why, even tho this build may be a bit worse, I'm not changing it because you've got to like your deck. And I don't enjoy playing with my deck with 3 Hellkites and 3 Engines. Again, why? I don't know.

I've also removed 1 Tormod's Crypt and 1 Duplicant and I've added 2 Crucible of Worlds. That because I'm more afraid now for another MUD/Staxx decks here in Europa then of Dredge/GY based decks. So I thought that the Crucible would increase my chances of winning against the mirror match then a Duplicant would do.

What do you think of this list? Better now with 4 Chalices. What do you think of the Sideboard.

Cheers,

Maarten van Tol

[madmanmike25]

you've got to like your deck

Very important indeed.

Your list looks fine, personally I find non-restricted 1-of's (Wurmcoil) to be inconsistent for me but play with what you like.  Any thoughts on just playing with 4 Hellkites?

I'm pretty sure Ratchet Bomb > Powder Keg.  Since you have 2 maindeck Bombs, maybe you could alter the sb to 2 Bombs, 1 Keg.

Crucibles are awesome in the mirror.  Game changing imo, and your 2 maindeck Razormanes destroy opposing Lodestones rather easily.  Scultping Steels even the odds for 3 mana.  I don't see the mirror being too big of a problem.

[voltron00x]

I'm somewhat curious why we still have a "MUD Thread" and not multiple threads, considering the major differences in MUD deck design throughout 2010.  Is there anyone that'd like to break out a new control or prison MUD thread and/or an Aggro MUD thread? 

I know what list I would strongly suggest for the prison or control strategy (hint: It rhymes with Espresso Stax) but I'm much less definitive on the aggro version (although I suspect it should be one that includes Metalworker and Steel Hellkite).

[Will]

I'm with you Matt, I was going to suggest something like that and then realized that all the players who play Espresso Stax don't post frequently in the Workshop threads anyways.  However, it is definitely a worthwhile change since the decks are so different and creates a demand for a primer for both decks which may prove to be somewhat difficult. 

[Bosaapje]

Yeah, I'm sure it will be clearer if we make multiple threads for the different MUD designs. The difference between Espresso Stax and Aggro MUD is pretty big. Big enough for another thread in my opinion.

@Madmanmike: Yeah, was thinking the same about the Ratchet Bomb/Powder Keg. Now I just have to find another card in SB. Perhaps Duplicant? I don't know why I just play 1 Engine. It looked to me that if I would draw it, I would be happy and if I wouldn't draw it, it isn't a game loss. It's not a creature that ruins a whole archetype, so it's not that important if I draw a Hellkite or an Engine (maybe in some games it is, but in the end it isn't).

EDIT: Maybe it isn't so stupid to just add an extra Crucible of Worlds and a Razormane Masticore to the Sideboard for the mirrormatch. I've got no cards that could tutor, so with one extra CoW I would increase my changes. And with the Masticore I can shoot the opponent's Golems.

[madmanmike25]

I'm somewhat curious why we still have a "MUD Thread" and not multiple threads, considering the major differences in MUD deck design throughout 2010.  Is there anyone that'd like to break out a new control or prison MUD thread and/or an Aggro MUD thread? 

Yeah I started this MUD thread with the emergence of Lodestone Golem.  Some thought it was 'crazy' to put Lodestone in a Stax deck lol.  Now other cards have come out and MUD is very viable in a variety of flavors.

Some help as to what threads might be of assistance here:

1.)  Smokestack based MUD (even lists with Juggernauts similar to the ones I have posted or Espresso Stax)
1.)  Aggro MUD (Creatures that get it done, sans Smokestack)
3.)  Combo MUD (Metalworker builds that try to win in under 3 turns perhaps?)

Forgemaster builds:  Something I am still tinkering with.  Very exciting possibilities for both Stax, Combo, and Aggro builds.  Im honestly surprised more decks haven't been discussed with this fellow.

Hellkite builds:  Again can go in either Aggro or Stax as Smokestack isn't needed but Hellkite can easily complement it.

Hybrid decks will naturally evolve.  Cards like Metalworker and Serum Powder can fit in all 3 categories, and Null Rod fits in 2.

Did I miss any main category?  Any other thoughts on the best way to categorize MUD?  I can still remember when only a handfull of us discussed MUD even though it was still viable before Lodestone

[Will]

1.)  Smokestack based MUD (even lists with Juggernauts similar to the ones I have posted or Espresso Stax)
1.)  Aggro MUD (Creatures that get it done, sans Smokestack)
3.)  Combo MUD (Metalworker builds that try to win in under 3 turns perhaps?)

Forgemaster builds:  Something I am still tinkering with.  Very exciting possibilities for both Stax, Combo, and Aggro builds.  Im honestly surprised more decks haven't been discussed with this fellow.

Hellkite builds:  Again can go in either Aggro or Stax as Smokestack isn't needed but Hellkite can easily complement it.

Hybrid decks will naturally evolve.  Cards like Metalworker and Serum Powder can fit in all 3 categories, and Null Rod fits in 2.

Did I miss any main category?  Any other thoughts on the best way to categorize MUD?  I can still remember when only a handfull of us discussed MUD even though it was still viable before Lodestone

Probably just one opinion rather than the voice of the people here but I think it could be broken into:
-Espresso Stax
-Metalworker Aggro
-Other MUD builds (If enough interest shows for individual threads regarding Combo and Stax then make it a thread).

While this change is pretty minimal from what madmanmike suggested, I think it is important to make a thread devoted solely to Espresso Stax and think someone would be willing to make a primer for it (coughProsperocough) at some point in time.  I think that the limiting factor in this situation is the number of people willing to make primers or threads for each archetype as well as the number of people who both actively play and want to talk about the different types of MUD. 

[voltron00x]

Well, I think the better solution might be to have the Mods split the Workshop thread into Stax and Aggro.

[Prospero]

I have started working on the Espresso Stax primer again.  I hope to have it up in the next few days.  When it is up, I'll give time to anybody looking for help playing the deck/making decisions while playing the deck.  I'm also going to be posting more in the various Workshop threads.

[Bosaapje]

I'm pretty interested in a Shop-combo topic. Espresso and Metalworker are pretty famous in my opinion, but I didn't read that much articles about a Shop-combo. So it would be great if there's gonna come a Shop-combo topic, because almost everyone knows the other MUD builds .

[Prospero]

The first draft of the Espresso primer is done.  I hope to have it up sometime in the next few days.

[Bosaapje]

Cool, I'm looking forward to it

[Clown of Tresserhorn]

I definitely look forward to it as well. Is there any way you can post a decklist as a teaser?

[Will]

I'd be 99.99% sure it will be this:

Espresso Stax
4 Mishra's Workshop
4 Wasteland
3 Rishadan Port
4 Ancient Tomb
1 Strip Mine
1 Tolarian Academy

4 Lodestone Golem
3 Karn, Silver Golem
2 Duplicant

4 Sphere of Resistance
4 Tangle Wire
3 Crucible of Worlds
4 Chalice of the Void
2 Thorn of Amethyst
4 Serum Powder
4 Smokestack
1 Trinisphere
1 Sol Ring
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mana Vault
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
Sideboard:
1 Duplicant
1 Thorn of Amethyst
3 Maze of Ith
3 Ghost Quarter
3 Pithing Needle
4 Leyline of the Void

[Bosaapje]

Lol yeah, probably. It looks pretty similar to the list I build, only I ran 4 Thorns, you run 2.

[Marske]

@Bosaapje,
I'm pretty sure running 4 Thorn isn't correct... could you post your list?

[Bosaapje]

Yeah, I made a mistake, I run 3 Thorns. This is my list:

Mana:

1 Mana Crypt
1 Mana Vault
5 Mox
1 Sol Ring
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Mishra's Workshop
3 Rishadan Port
1 Strip Mine
1 Tolarian Academy
4 Wasteland

Lock parts:

4 Chalice of the Void
4 Smokestack
4 Sphere of Resistance
4 Tangle Wire
3 Thorn of Amethyst
1 Trinisphere

Creatures:

1 Duplicant
3 Karn
4 Lodestone Golem

Other stuff:

3 Crucible of Worlds
4 Serum Powder


Sideboard:

3 Pithing Needle
1 Duplicant
4 Leyline of the Void
4 Ghost Quarter
3 MAze of Ith

[Marske]

@bosaapje,
So what's the main reason for the 3rd thorn maindeck instead of having 2 Duplicants? Duplicant is just awesome most of the games I played him and I run 3 divided between board and main. It's actually pretty similar to the Espresso list I ran last few events as we differ 1 card.

[Bosaapje]

Well, I don't really know. I was just play testing and I thought: "Let's do that, see what's going to happen", and most of the times you want to draw a non-Sphere thing, and you draw a Thorn or another Sphere. So I"m gonna remove 1 Sphere and add 1 Duplicant. It's better for the flow of the deck.

[Marske]

@Bosaapje,
Not only that but it gives you more room in the mirror which is kind of huge...

[Bosaapje]

That's true. Which decktype is played the most in Europa? MUD or Espresso Staxx/Staxx?

[Marske]

@Bosaapje,
I think I'm one of the only people running Espresso Stax in the Benelux... some people have been taking some stuff from the deck (like running ports or powders) but to my knowledge I'm the only person running Espresso.

[Bosaapje]

@Marske: Ah, okay. I talked with Martin and he advised me to swtich from MUD to Espresso, cause Espresso was a lot stronger than MUD, so maybe I'm gonna switch. I don't know yet, what I like about MUD is it's fast clock, and I don't really see that with Espresso Staxx. Correct me if I'm wrong, but it's just not that explosive as MUD is.

Is it really worth it, switching from MUD to Espresso Staxx? Is it really that much stronger?

This should have been a PM, I'd gladly continue this discussion there or on AIM/MSN (check my profile). Marske

[Will]

Espresso Stax is much more redundant and consistent than MUD realistically could ever be.  As Prospero has reiterated several times, it does not matter what lock pieces you have, as they almost always mesh together and form an effective lock.  Serum Powder only aids in the redundancy, and makes it so the deck only really crutches on Mishra's Workshop instead of relying on Metalworker as well so the deck can play optimally.  While Espresso Stax is admittedly not as explosive as times, the consistency that the deck gives more than makes up for the blowouts that you are missing out on when transitioning from MUD to Espresso, because the average hand for Espresso is generally better than the opponents.  It boils down to consistency vs. explosiveness if you ask me, and if you are planning to play in a 5-6 round tournament there is only one logical choice. 

[elementum]

I don't know if you (Wmagzoo7) are playing in an european or american meta, but to be honest, I really doubt that Espresso Stax is the more consistent deck. If you look at top8s of bigger european tournaments (7+ rounds of swiss) most of them will include at least 2 MUD lists. to give two examples:

Bazaar of Moxen 2010: 4 MUD lists in the top 8 after nine rounds of swiss (place 8 was a null rod list)

German Magic 2: 4 MUD lists in the top 8 after seven rounds of swiss (all of them include 4 metalwokers)

also in a lot of testing it feels to me like good old metalworker MUD would be much more consistant than espresso stax. statistics speak for themselves, at least in the european metagame. in my opinion your "if you are planning to play in a 5-6 round tournament there is only one logical choice [= Espresso Stax]" statement is strictly wrong.

[Will]

I don't know if you (Wmagzoo7) are playing in an european or american meta, but to be honest, I really doubt that Espresso Stax is the more consistent deck. If you look at top8s of bigger european tournaments (7+ rounds of swiss) most of them will include at least 2 MUD lists. to give two examples:

Bazaar of Moxen 2010: 4 MUD lists in the top 8 after nine rounds of swiss (place 8 was a null rod list)

German Magic 2: 4 MUD lists in the top 8 after seven rounds of swiss (all of them include 4 metalwokers)

also in a lot of testing it feels to me like good old metalworker MUD would be much more consistant than espresso stax. statistics speak for themselves, at least in the european metagame. in my opinion your "if you are planning to play in a 5-6 round tournament there is only one logical choice [= Espresso Stax]" statement is strictly wrong.

1) Metalworker MUD relies on Metalworker and Workshop to win games, both of these are not replaceable as they are unique cards.  Aside from this the deck has a lot of cards that can be replaced per each metagame but you can only play a maximum of 4 of each, and the best hands include both of those cards.  Compare this to Espresso Stax which only has Workshop as a unique and non replaceable cards as the decks other cards all do essentially the same thing. Now factor in the fact that Espresso Stax plays Serum Powder which is going to increase your chance of getting Mishra's Workshop as well as finding an otherwise keepable hand.  Based on this, I don't know how Metalworker MUD can be more consistent than Espresso Stax. 

2) Did you consider the idea that very few people are playing Espresso Stax as compared to Metalworker MUD?  Marske just said that in his local meta he is the only one that is playing Espresso, granted this is not all of Europe but I would be willing to bet that more people are playing Metalworker MUD than Espresso Stax in Europe.  One logical explanation for this is that Metalworker MUD is easier to play and inherently more powerful than Espresso Stax because it plays 4 of a more explosive card (Metalworker).  With Metalworker MUD the deck essentially plays itself especially when it draws and resolves a Metalworker. 

Statsitics don't speak for themselves because more Metalworker MUD decks top8ing in Europe than Espresso Stax does not mean that the deck is better if the field is 20% Metalworker MUD and 3% Espresso Stax. 

[madlucas]

Espresso Stax
4 Mishra's Workshop
4 Wasteland
3 Rishadan Port
4 Ancient Tomb
1 Strip Mine
1 Tolarian Academy

4 Lodestone Golem
3 Karn, Silver Golem
2 Duplicant

4 Sphere of Resistance
4 Tangle Wire
3 Crucible of Worlds
4 Chalice of the Void
2 Thorn of Amethyst
4 Serum Powder
4 Smokestack
1 Trinisphere
1 Sol Ring
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mana Vault
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
Sideboard:
1 Duplicant
1 Thorn of Amethyst
3 Maze of Ith
3 Ghost Quarter
3 Pithing Needle
4 Leyline of the Void

Hi all,
how would you side in the different match-ups (trygon tezz,oath,dredge,...) with this maindeck and sideboard?