The MUD Thread

[madmanmike25]

I believe that the MUD strategy you should focus on beats or prison. The diluting of the both into a single deck is not the strongest strategy.

That turns the deck into a 1 trick pony, and usually is a poor decision.  Again why are you "diluting" shop aggro with Chalices, Spheres, and Tangles?  Why not play more creatures then?  The fact is that even Shop Aggro NEEDS prison/lock/disruption elements to have a chance in Vintage.  Period.  A deck with 25-28 mana sources and 32-35 creatures will LOSE.  My point is that Smokestack can complement your (necessary)lock pieces rather nicely.  It does not Dilute the deck at all.  It enhances it.

I believe Smokestack and Juggernaut are in direct competition for card slots.  I also believe that only 4 cards do not interfere with a decks gameplan.  I have had plenty of success swinging with a creature while my Smokestack eats permanents thereby taking them out of the game.

The best creatures in Vintage aren't even creatures.  The best creatures in Vintage are Oath of Druids and Tinker.  Juggernaut can't smash through that.  Smokestack can.  Look at how many Oath and/or Tinker decklists you see in your meta then decide...

And in my testing I have been bold and played turn 1 Smokes before Spheres.  If it resolves and I follow with a turn 2 Sphere or Tangle it's usually gg.  Not all your opponents are going to storm combo on their first turn.

[Twaun007]

I believe that the MUD strategy you should focus on beats or prison. The diluting of the both into a single deck is not the strongest strategy.

That turns the deck into a 1 trick pony, and usually is a poor decision.  Again why are you "diluting" shop aggro with Chalices, Spheres, and Tangles?

I think you are looking at SoRs, ToAs, a Tangles in the wrong way. They should be complimenting your win conditions whether you're playing Workshop agggro or Workshop prison. SoRs are awful if you are going for the Worrkshop Aggro. ToA are what you should look for if you want to go the Aggro route.

I believe Smokestack and Juggernaut are in direct competition for card slots.  I also believe that only 4 cards do not interfere with a decks gameplan.  I have had plenty of success swinging with a creature while my Smokestack eats permanents thereby taking them out of the game.

You contradict yourself when you say four cards don't mean a thing. Test Thorn of Amethyst instead of Sphere of Resistance with your aggro plan and you'll see how 4 cards can affect your entire deck/strategy. 

The best creatures in Vintage aren't even creatures.  The best creatures in Vintage are Oath of Druids and Tinker.  Juggernaut can't smash through that.  Smokestack can.  Look at how many Oath and/or Tinker decklists you see in your meta then decide...

Believe me, I know the power of Smokestack vs. those turn one plays.  Our strategy as Workshop players is to beat those plays with our Workshops and Artifacts but that doesn't always happen.

And in my testing I have been bold and played turn 1 Smokes before Spheres.  If it resolves and I follow with a turn 2 Sphere or Tangle it's usually gg.  Not all your opponents are going to storm combo on their first turn.

This comes to my problem with all the control decks running a million lands. Turn one smokestack isn't that threatening unless you follow it up with some sort of pressure. God forbid if they counter your turn two threat or Crucible.

[madmanmike25]

They should be complimenting your win conditions whether you're playing Workshop agggro or Workshop prison

I agree, and they do complement both Aggro and Prison strategies.  Do you not see that?

Yes, if you are going full blown aggro its quite obvious to see that Thorns would trump Spheres.  You missed my point, I was directly comparing Smoke and Jugg.  Now that we have Lodestone, which is clearly better than Jugg, my testing has shown me that Smokestack hasn't diluted MUD, it has added versatility.

Actually if you read previous posts, this debate has been going on long enough.  I want this thread to encourage any and all MUD strategies and different card choices.  I'm not going to tell anyone who posts an aggro list that they have to add Smokestack and I expect any lists that are posted here containing Smokestack should be given the same courtesy.  I stand by my opinions because I have tested MUD extensively and performed well at tournaments with it.  I would understand if you are saying that you've tested my lists and in Smokestacks place Juggernauts performed better.  That is not the case, because I have tested just that and have based my card choices upon that experience. 

Maybe I haven't been clear here, but when I post a list it's not just theory.  These are decklists that I have tested and tested again.  I wouldn't even post them if I didn't feel they are viable.  This brings up a good point though.  If you are going to post a list in this thread, would you mind at least testing it a few times first?  Trust me, I have enough untested MUD lists in my head right now and it would really bog this thread down if I posted them all without even playing them.

Turn one smokestack isn't that threatening unless you follow it up with some sort of pressure. God forbid if they counter your turn two threat or Crucible.

Thats when you play a turn 3 Lodestone, Trike, Karn, Tangle, etc. etc...

And let me ask you seriously, when was the last time you played MUD?  Would you care to share your tested list with us?

Lastly, I have never been able to attack 2 times the same turn with Juggernaut. I have however been able to ramp Smokestack up to 2 or more counters.  I have also had more defeats from my opponent winning with only 1-2 life than I have had when my opponent had 1-2 permanents.  Interpret that as you may.

[Twaun007]

pm me and we can talk further in workshop strategy. I don't want to pollute this thread with Workshop strategy opinion.

[Justin]

Heres a list weve been playing with on the team board. I haven't received much feedback so I figured Id post it here:

Tempo - 17
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Sphere of Resistance
4 Thorn of Amethyst
4 Null Rod
1 Trinisphere

Beats - 16
4 Frogmite
4 Lodestone Golem
4 Juggernaut
4 Myr Enforcer

Boost - 9
8 McSoLoMox
1 Mana Vault

Land - 18
4 Mishra's Workshop
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
1 Tolarian Academy

Basically you're stalling with all the spheres & null rod until you can pull out a win. The affinity creatures are sphere neutral & aren't affected by thorn so they are really easily cast. The reason I went with them is that this deck causes mana screw for everyone, and dropping a 2/2, 5/3 or 4/4 while no one can do anything is all that is needed. My original version was closer to my old "Goons" deck that I top 4 split with several times at local tourneys. I omitted the metalworkers & SoF&I while utilizing null rod to help slow the game down.

Crucible & smokestack came out for the affinity creatures. Crucible does not do much on its own & is worse now since so many players run a good deal of basics. Smokestack takes time to get working (id like to state that i LOVE smokestack, but am trying to go another route with the printing of lodestone). Everything in the deck should have an immediate effect on the board since all were looking to do is beat to death & not lock people out. Another tempo piece I tried was Orb of dreams since it negates summoning sickness as well as retards the fetchland player's manabase but i'm not sure where I stand on it.

Mana Crypt & Mana Vault have been underwhelming due to the 13 sphere effects. Sometimes with these cards the deck plays out like suicide & the extra damage can cause a problem. Not sure where I sit on those, they could be 1 more land & another random lock piece.

Anyway take a look & let me know what you think. No sideboard yet. Juggernaut could be another card, and the # of enforcers could be adjusted as well.

[madmanmike25]

That's the most straight-forward aggro approach I've seen so far.

I know sometimes Frogmite is 'free' but at the end of the day he is still a 2/2.  Why not just put a better beater in such as Su-Chi, Synod Centurion, or Wirecat?

Can't find any room for Tangle Wire?  Dropping that after a Lodestone is deadly.

If you ever found yourself wanting more Factories, don't forget about Mutavault.

Consider Razormane Masticore in your sb.

Good luck,
Mike

[Justin]

Thanks for the reply!

Re:Su-Chi, Centurion, Wirecat:

Ive played with all of these at one point or another (wirecat to a lesser extent). In fact my goons build that has some top 4s on morphling ran 16 juggerbots. What I found, after cutting metalworker, was that the game gets slowed down so much that almost any threat will do. The frogmites could easily be another, larger robot. If this change was made I believe Su-Chi would win out. Once spheres hit, or you wasted some lands, everything feels soooo expensive that frogmite won out in this initial build i've proposed. I'm all ears if anyone has different results!

re:Tangle Wire

This was originally in as well; the brown time walk is amazing. It could easily find its way back in. I initially removed it due to the fact that i didn't have the welder tricks available due to the decks MUDDY nature. I really, really wanted to cripple the manabase development through spheres, thorns, chalice & rod, and there was no room for tangle wire. If someone wanted to add it in, i would assume the change would be -1 Null Rod, -1 Myr Enforcer, -1 Vault & +3 wire or something similar.

re:Mutavault

Great suggestion if someone is looking to up their free threat count. Honestly, and this is kinda lame, but I just really wanted to have a set of shops & factories since Mishra is rad to the power of sick. Ancient tomb really isn't cuttable, City of Traitors usually bites if you dont run crucible, and wastelands need to be in to maximize the sphere effects. Hopefully they'll unrestrict strip

Re:Sideboard

Razormane is an excellent suggestion, one that my teammate Cullen (Zombie Shakespeare on the boards) made as well. I believe the sideboard will have to include some number of these if not a full set as well as duplicants.

Re:Some thoughts
I tried to build the deck so there's no lynch pin. Aside from hurkyll's & rebuild (which cause fits for any shop build) , it shouldn't matter too much if creature A or lockpiece B get pridemaged/claimed etc. There are no combos and the deck exists on its internal synergy. Kinda mindless, but fun to play.

[FlyFlySideOfFry]

If you need another mindless beater why not Karn? He turns all your spheres into Factories basically and he can randomly eat Moxen.

[madmanmike25]

I think his 4 Null Rods answer that question 

[FlyFlySideOfFry]

I think his 4 Null Rods answer that question 

I think it is worth paying 1 more mana if you're going with a mindless beater considering it isn't like you're running 4 Serum Powders to mulligan into Null Rod. I'd love to see what games in testing come up where Karn is worse than Wirecat compared to games where Karn's abilities win the game. :/

[Justin]

Hey Fry

re:Karn

As MadmanMike25 stated, the full suite of nullrods basically preclude Karn from being played without being crippled. That combined with the fact that hes useless as a beater if the opponent has resolved even a vanilla 0/1 makes him unable to apply pressure, which is all we have going for us in a deck with no true lock out. If the nullrods weren't enough reason to justify Karn's exclusion, the full suite of chalices also bolster the argument against his inclusion. With 8 cards that instantly lock moxen out, Karn's ability to eat relics becomes very redundant.

Karn is at his strongest in a mud deck which doesn't utilize null rod, which most likely brings us back to a metalworker shell. I abandoned the metalworker shell since the mana denial & artifact nullification of rod seems like the stronger (and cheaper) play. I wanted to get the most out of the first & second turns with regards to cheap lock pieces and I believe this deck achieves that. (As an aside, I love Karn in any build not "rocking the rod" and his ability to alpha strike with lock pieces while eating moxen is completely worth it.)

Also, Wirecat would be the absolute last creature run in this deck. When it comes to juggerbots I believe the hierarchy breaks down as follows:
1. Lodestone Golem
2,3. Juggernaut/Myr Enforcer (you could easily argue Su-Chi is better than Enforcer in a vacuum, but were running 42 artifacts so if you like Su-Chi, run 'em)
4. Su-Chi
5. Synod Centurion
6 at most - Wirecat.

Thats 20 beaters that would fit in before wirecat, so I think the fact that Karn is better than Wirecat is a bit of a "straw-man argument" in this discussion.

re: Thoughts

While reviewing the decklist it should pop out to anyone that you can drop chalice at 1 or 3 with no effect on the deck. While chalice@3 is more rare, it does stop rebuild/flux/etc. Chalice at 1 is just brutal against the format.

I wanted to thank everyone for their input! I fully expected to get hit with the old "Thi$ 1znt T3Z & u R duMM 4 pl4y1ng 1t N00b \/\/00t WTFbubbles"

[Grand Inquisitor]

Without Karn, Staff (with metalworker) or Tangle Wire, this list seems dead to a tinkered Sphinx.  Has this been an issue with testing?

Also, since metalworker is such a house in the workshop mirror, has null rod been good enough in these matchups?  Do you find you have trouble in these matches if you don't see null rod?

[Justin]

Hey GI

re:Karn

Am i missing something? Im not sure how Karn answers Sphinx. With the maindeck as it is, a 1st turn tinker for sphinx is game over. I believe the likelihood of tinkering on the first turn might be slightly less than the Mud deck playing chalice, rod, sphere, thorn, waste or lodestone to push the Tinker player's mana development back a bit. Duplicant would make the most sense as an answer out of the board, possibly ensnaring bridge for that matter since its not too difficult to have a decent amount of cards in hand due to everything being uber expensive as you develop your tempo pieces. I outlined some substitutions in the post above for those who may want to include tangle wire (believe me,I want to include tangle wire).

re:The Mirror

Unfortunately I haven't tested the shop mirror. I own a civil/commercial construction consulting business with projects in NY, NJ, PA & VA and i'm up to my eyeballs in projects at the moment. Chances are anyone who picks up the deck will know more about it than me in a short amount of time lol. I just wanted to put the idea out there & hopefully someone can take something from it.

[Stormanimagus]

Hey GI

re:Karn

Am i missing something? Im not sure how Karn answers Sphinx. With the maindeck as it is, a 1st turn tinker for sphinx is game over. I believe the likelihood of tinkering on the first turn might be slightly less than the Mud deck playing chalice, rod, sphere, thorn, waste or lodestone to push the Tinker player's mana development back a bit. Duplicant would make the most sense as an answer out of the board, possibly ensnaring bridge for that matter since its not too difficult to have a decent amount of cards in hand due to everything being uber expensive as you develop your tempo pieces. I outlined some substitutions in the post above for those who may want to include tangle wire (believe me,I want to include tangle wire).

re:The Mirror

Unfortunately I haven't tested the shop mirror. I own a civil/commercial construction consulting business with projects in NY, NJ, PA & VA and i'm up to my eyeballs in projects at the moment. Chances are anyone who picks up the deck will know more about it than me in a short amount of time lol. I just wanted to put the idea out there & hopefully someone can take something from it.

I think a perfectly good answer to Sphinx and Inky is 4x Sculpting Steel MD. People haven't really given the card a lot of serious consideration but it is very useful in this deck at copying Lock-pieces and Lodestones. Just Sayin'. That's what I'd run.

-Storm

[Justin]

Hey Storm

re:Sculpting steel

What an elegant solution! I have 4 in sleeves and did not even consider the fact that it copies any artifact in play, not only those you control. Good form (insert golf clapping emoticon here).

Thanks!

[The M.E.T.H.O.D]

This is was the list I designed and played to a first place finish and a sapphire last week at the last N.Y.S.E. The deck is awesome.


Meandeck Murderball

4 Chalice of the Void
4 Tangle Wire
4 Sphere of Resistance
4 Thorn of Amythest
3 Null Rod
2 Sculpting Steel
1 Trinisphere

4 Lodestone Golem
4 Juggernaut
2 Razormane Masticore

4 Mishra's Workshop
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Wasteland
1 City of Traitors
1 Tolarian Academy
1 Strip Mine
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Emerald
1 Sol Ring
1 Mana Vault
1 Mana Crypt

[Justin]

Hey M.E.T.H.O.D

Glad to see a similar list did well. How was the 2/2 split between sculpting steel & razormane work out? Also, did you feel 10 creatures +mishra's factory was enough pressure on the life total? Im assuming you did since you got first, but im interested in any feedback you have on the maindeck & if you would adjust the card counts for another tourney.

Could you post the sideboard or is that "proprietary meandeck tech"?

Thanks!

[Leooooh]

Hey METHOD,

 Congrats on those results. The deck seems to be really solid. Could you please inform us, what did you use against oath, besides the 4xchalices maindeck. Jester's Cap?

 There is one card that can stop this entire deck. How do you guys deal with Ensnaring Bridge? The mono red or even Red Green Prison stax can use those bridges and might cause you some problems. Those builds usually run 3-4 bazaars maindeck and crucible, so emptying their hands is not dificult. Then they only need to cast a smokestack with one crucible on the play and kill with barbarian ring.

  Thanks god, no one is using this card so much, because it is a threat against MUD.

[The M.E.T.H.O.D]

Glad to see a similar list did well. How was the 2/2 split between sculpting steel & razormane work out? Also, did you feel 10 creatures +mishra's factory was enough pressure on the life total? Im assuming you did since you got first, but im interested in any feedback you have on the maindeck & if you would adjust the card counts for another tourney

The split was very good but they both do different things. Sculpting steel is very strong as extra copies of spheres, 5/3's, or tangle wire and it gives you an out to crucible of worlds or inkwell leviathan.  Razormane Masticore is good because his 5/5 competes with tarmogoyf in combat and his pinging/first strike is very good in the juggernaut mirror and fish matchup. In general when I chose my creatures I was trying to get the most value out of a guy with the lowest casting cost/drawback possible.

As for my sideboard I played 4 Relic of Progenitus, 3 Heap Doll, 4 Duplicant, 3 Eon Hub, 1 Razormane Masticore. The only card in my sideboard that I wasn't impressed with is eon hub, but the problem is attacking with workshops severely limits possible sideboard options for oath. Hub was actually more relevant in the stax matchup.   Both my maindeck and sideboard were tuned to the best of my ability before the tourney but like with everything there is always room for improvement.

Congrats on those results. The deck seems to be really solid. Could you please inform us, what did you use against oath, besides the 4xchalices maindeck. Jester's Cap?

The nature of having 12 spheres in the deck makes your best strategy to try and mana deny them then tax all their spells (including oath) then running a card like eon hub to stop them. Especially because tangle wire is still really solid. Your best strategy is to either race it with creatures and wires after they oath or have duplicant in hand. Jester's Cap could be good but I don't like playing that card because you have to play around your own null rods and it doesn't affect the board immediately unless you have enough mana to activate it. This matchup is going to be tricky because the oath targets players run change often which completely changes the value of your sideboard cards.

There is one card that can stop this entire deck. How do you guys deal with Ensnaring Bridge? The mono red or even Red Green Prison stax can use those bridges and might cause you some problems. Those builds usually run 3-4 bazaars maindeck and crucible, so emptying their hands is not dificult. Then they only need to cast a smokestack with one crucible on the play and kill with barbarian ring.

Ensnaring Bridge is pretty brutal against this deck. I think Culling Scales is the best choice if you are worried about bridge and the Stax & Fish matchups in general.

[Leooooh]

METHOD,

 Did you face any oath in those champs? How was duplicant against oath and fish? Razormane is a great adition to battle fishes and goyfs.

[The M.E.T.H.O.D]

Did you face any oath in those champs? How was duplicant against oath and fish? Razormane is a great adition to battle fishes and goyfs.

Twice in the swiss & amazing. I lost to dredge twice and made t8 @ x-2

[Leooooh]

Did you face any oath in those champs? How was duplicant against oath and fish? Razormane is a great adition to battle fishes and goyfs.

Twice in the swiss & amazing. I lost to dredge twice and made t8 @ x-2

That is amazing man..... I have always thought that dredge and Oath were the worst match-ups for those Mono Brown aggro. If you can provide more details about the oath games, I would really appreciate it.
 I saw that you used relic and heap doll as dredge sbs.....Both cards cost 1. Is it because of chalice of the void in dredge? Maybe in the future, more sb slots should be used for the dredge, since you told us that you lost two games against it. Silent Arbiter might be a candidate, as well as for fish too as your guys are far larger than theirs.


 

[xycsoscyx]

I've actually been testing a similar list lately that I'm going to be trying out this Sunday.  I think the main difference is that instead of Sculpting Steel I'm running Bottled Cloister and my lands are a bit differentI'm running 3x City and no Factory.  So far I've really liked the Cloister since it helps fuel the Masticores without having to Draw/Pitch/repeat, I can actually still play a card instead of having to always keep it and pitch it next upkeep.  It also lets me justify the single Helm in the sideboard which is mostly brought in to help against Dredge (and potentially other matches where I'd like to win quicker).  Has anyone tested Damping Matrix with Shop decks?  It seems like there's no real reason to use Pithing Needle over it since it will shut down everything I'd want to Needle and then some (I wouldn't even hesitate to include it if it shut down Tezz as well).  In general with the sideboard, Crucibles are only really against oposing Shop decks, which is the main reason why I'm not running them maindeck (don't expect too much Shop at the tournament), Leylines against Dredge/Shop, Cap against Combo/Oath/Tezz, and Needle/Matrix are general cleanup (I can never seem to justify maindeck Needles, yet I always seem to side them in).  I like the Sculpting Steel idea though, it's a great answer to turn one Tinker (which honestly is difficult to deal with no matter what deck you're playing).

// Lands
    1 Strip Mine
    4 Mishra's Workshop
    3 City of Traitors
    4 Wasteland
    4 Ancient Tomb
    1 Tolarian Academy

    1 Mox Pearl
    1 Mox Jet
    1 Mox Sapphire
    1 Mox Ruby
    1 Mox Emerald
    1 Black Lotus
    1 Sol Ring
    1 Mana Crypt
    1 Mana Vault

// Creatures
    4 Lodestone Golem
    4 Juggernaut
    3 Razormane Masticore

// Spells
    1 Trinisphere
    4 Thorn of Amethyst
    4 Sphere of Resistance
    3 Null Rod
    4 Tangle Wire
    4 Chalice of the Void
    3 Bottled Cloister

// Sideboard
SB: 3 Crucible of Worlds
SB: 4 Jester's Cap
SB: 3 Pithing Needle/Damping Matrix
SB: 1 Helm of Obedience
SB: 4 Leyline of the Void

[FlyFlySideOfFry]

I've actually been testing a similar list lately that I'm going to be trying out this Sunday.  I think the main difference is that instead of Sculpting Steel I'm running Bottled Cloister and my lands are a bit differentI'm running 3x City and no Factory.  So far I've really liked the Cloister since it helps fuel the Masticores without having to Draw/Pitch/repeat, I can actually still play a card instead of having to always keep it and pitch it next upkeep.  It also lets me justify the single Helm in the sideboard which is mostly brought in to help against Dredge (and potentially other matches where I'd like to win quicker).  Has anyone tested Damping Matrix with Shop decks?  It seems like there's no real reason to use Pithing Needle over it since it will shut down everything I'd want to Needle and then some (I wouldn't even hesitate to include it if it shut down Tezz as well).  In general with the sideboard, Crucibles are only really against oposing Shop decks, which is the main reason why I'm not running them maindeck (don't expect too much Shop at the tournament), Leylines against Dredge/Shop, Cap against Combo/Oath/Tezz, and Needle/Matrix are general cleanup (I can never seem to justify maindeck Needles, yet I always seem to side them in).  I like the Sculpting Steel idea though, it's a great answer to turn one Tinker (which honestly is difficult to deal with no matter what deck you're playing).

Damping Matrix only affects creatures and artifacts. One of the biggest boons of Pithing Needle is that it stops Bazaar (and Tezzeret if you want) in addition to the other random stuff like Hexmage/Heretic/Welder/Time Vault. I probably would run Pithing Needle instead of Damping Matrix if necessary since few decks run multiple cards you need to stop and Bazaar is the major offender that makes things like this necessary. It also doesn't turn off your own cards if you bring in stuff like Cap/Helm.

[smasher]

I've been playing around with the following list.

25 Artifacts

4 thorn of amethyst
2 sphere of resistance
1 trinisphere
4 tangle wire
4 smokestack
4 sculpting steel
2 crucible of worlds
4 chalice of the void

9 Creatures

4 lodestone golem
3 triskelion
2 karn

9 Artifact mana

5 mox
1 black lotus
1 mana crypt
1 mana vault
1 sol ring

18 Lands

4 workshop
4 ancient tomb
2 city of traitors
2 mishra's factory
4 wasteland
1 strip mine
1 tolarian academy

Anyone played something similar to this with good results yet? Mostly referring to smokestacks + lodestones in the same list with this question.

A few concerns I have had are 4x sculpting steel. Love the card, been great most of the time and It's pretty nice to fairly reliably have a tinker answer. The small problem I have had is getting hands like this
Mox x2, Land x2 Sculpting steel x2, 1 other lock piece. If your lock piece gets answered then the sculpting steels can be pretty dead until you draw another lock. I guess at this point I'd be willing to go down to three but Id rather do more testing first.

Only 2 sphere of resistance because thorn feels like the better lock piece in a deck trying to cast lodestones, karns, and dupes or trikes. I tried it as a 4 of but dropped 2 so I could increase the sculpting steel count and not hinder my casting of creatures.

Triskelion is pretty good in a fish meta but I think duplicant might be the better choice to deal better with oath and fish at the same time as well as answer every non inkwell tinkered robot.

Deck does feel a little light on threats but smokestack solves the problem by slowing them down or locking them out until I can draw some. I'm just not interested in playing a workshop deck without smokestack at this point in time. If counting smokestack as a threat then that increases my numbers to a more acceptable level.

Due to smokestack being in the deck I added a couple crucibles and a couple of mishra's factory. In testing, Smokestack has been good with or without crucible. I could see playing a 1 of crucible to get the list to 60 cards and possibly sideboard another 1 or 2 for shop mirrors.

Biggest concerns with the deck are shop mirrors, mono brown giving me no pyroblast for mass bounce spells, and lack of answers to a t1 or t2 resolved oath.

Do I need to splash red and rethink the deck to effectively handle shop mirrors, I'd anticipate 4-5 shop decks in a 20 player tournament. This would give me greater gargadons and pyroblasts along with artifact destruction.

Recap on changes being considered

-3 triskelion +3 duplicant
-1 crucible moving it to the board
-1 mana vault +1 metalworker, stolen idea from voltron00x. I have not been disappointed with mana vault but this is still a change I would be willing to test.
-1 sculpting steel, not sure what to put in for it. Could also let this be the 61st card to get cut.

Cards I've been considering for the sideboard
x triskelion
x ensnaring bridge
x tormods crypt
x relic of progenitals
x duplicant
x crucible of worlds
x spawning pit
x powder keg
x null rod

[the42up]

if you are really worried about other shop decks, just run red and toss in your welders. In the stax mirror, he who welds first usually wins. This can also be pretty nice if you are running razormane masticores and have the board on lock through spheres/thorns/whatever.

Also, 4 sculpting steels seems a bit much...they can be nice if you pack welders though.

As for only 2 spheres...I think this is the wrong choice.  Getting spheres rolling is a sure way to win, and most of the time, the extra 1-2 (depending on spheres) hits your opponent far harder than it hits you. Especially vs anything aggro-esque (you are in a fish meta). In a deck with so many potent mana lands, the card is just too much of a show stopper, especially later in the game when you have the edge.


As for duplicant...only if you see a ton of oath. Other wise, trisk or razormane is far more potent.


Also, out of curiosity, what has been your mileage from black lotus?  More often than not, it seems to be either a dead card or a pain in my neck (had a couple of mirrors where i had it welded for my lodestones).

[madmanmike25]

Those are my concerns regarding Sculpting Steel as well.  It makes it hard to gauge your threat density with that kind of hand.  Steel seems like such a filler slot to me, although I do understand its applications.

I prefer Spheres over Thorns for several reasons:  Goblin Welder, Noble Heirarch, Qasali Pridemage, and Dark Confidant.  I'd like it if those cards were more difficult to cast for my opponent.

Typically I find Triskelions more useful maindeck than Duplicant.  They have the abiltiy to create a type of card advantage by killing multiple creatures.  They are also proactive in that you can cast it pretty much at will whereas with Dupe you have to wait until they have a creature unless you want a 6cc 2/4.  My playstyle is aggressive so I go with Trike.  A 4/4 is still a pretty good threat and trumps fishy creatures and early Goyfs.

In testing, Smokestack has been good with or without crucible.

Welcome to the club.  A deck that contains 59+ permanents shouldn't have too much of a problem with Smokestack.

Don't forget about Jesters Cap as a sb card.


I was going to update this thread with my current MUD list also.  If you want threat density, this deck has it!

Creatures: 14

4 Lodestone Golem
4 Juggernaut
4 Triskelion
2 Karn

Lock Pieces: 18

4 Smokestack
4 Tangle Wire
1 Trinisphere
4 Sphere
1 Thorn
4 Chalice

Lands+mana: 28

4 Workshops
4 Wasteland
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Rishadan Port(liking this more and more)
1 City of Traitors
1 Tolarian Academy
1 Strip Mine
9 SoLoMoxenCryptVault

I put this deck together to see if it was possible to run Jugg+Lode+Smoke.  It is.  The random Thorn is pretty much Sphere#5 although I could consider going down 1 Port and up 1 Thorn. 

It has produced favorable results in testing, the ability to lay threat after threat after threat is quite potent.

This deck has plenty of REAL threats and not just a bunch of 'speed bumps' for your opponent to deal with.  It also has a nice balance between lock pieces and beaters.  Ports have been really good to me in testing.

[smasher]

As for duplicant...only if you see a ton of oath. Other wise, trisk or razormane is far more potent.

Also, out of curiosity, what has been your mileage from black lotus?  More often than not, it seems to be either a dead card or a pain in my neck (had a couple of mirrors where i had it welded for my lodestones).

So in an average 20 man tournament I'd expect to see 4 shops, 2 oath, 4 fish decks + other stuff like 3 tezz, 1 storm, 3 dredge, and a few random decks. Do you think this would still favor the triskelion main with some number of duplicant in the sideboard?

The downside to Lotus as you mentioned is facing goblin welders. With other shop decks in the room I would tend to let lotus just sit in play and tap it to tangle wire unless I really needed the mana. I like lotus because it really helps lodestone golem come down turn 1 along with chalice on zero or even a sphere. This opening is almost unbeatable assuming I'm on the play. It's hard to say If I go second what to play since It's largely dependent on what the opponent did on their turn. In this situation I tend to think lotus is on par or even better to going first since you are basically playing catch up and need to drop more than 1 lock piece.


Thanks madmanmike for the Jesters cap reminder. Pretty sure that will be in the board in some number.

In regards to the sphere vs thorn debate I have to say It's been tough to gauge what to run as your 4 of if you don't play 4 of each. I think based on the list of fish creatures that see a lot of play and also cause a large problem for workshop decks you are right to go with sphere.

Rishadan port is interesting and I don't have a problem putting them in for mishra's factories. I'll test this one out.

Triskelion won me a game where my opponent got down 2 life from bargain and had to pass the turn to get his untap step. I played it from my hand and my opponent scoops. Duplicant in this position would have lost me the game.

[Leooooh]

Hey madmanmike25,

I have been testing Helm of Possesion against oath, and the results are really nice. Even if they cast oath with orchard on the first turn, you can cast helm pass the turn with protection... This card can still be used after the first oath activation, wich Jcap can't. It can even be used with triskelion against fish....You ping their small guy, and sac it to gain control of a goyf for example. It has plenty of uses. What do you guys think of it?

Leonardo

[the42up]

Here is my beef with lotus:

1. mathematically, you have a 13% chance of drawing it in your opening hand if you are on the go, lotus is worse on the draw, in my opinion. Not only this, you need to have an effective card for lotus to be valuable, thus lowering the chance of it being an impact on the game.

2. After turn one, lotus might as well be an ornithopter, though not always the case after a smokestack wipe.

3. it is a dead card (at the best) vs any deck running welders (which seems to be on the rise due to lodestone).


More often than not, when i draw lotus i usually wish it was any other card in my deck.