The MUD Thread

[scipio]

There seems to be a lot of support for either Rishadan Port and/or City of Traitors.  On the other hand, Mishra's factories seem to have fallen out of favor.  Those seem like a better choice against fish and oath with an ability to apply pressure, and as chump blockers to clear bridge from below against Dredge.  Port ties up 2 lands to tap one of theirs, while ciity seems difficult to play without a crucible on the field.  Do you really want to see either one in your opening hand?

[Smmenen]

The answer depends on the other cards you include.   The original MUD list ran 4 City of Traitors and 0 Ancient Tomb, without Crucible (since it hadn't see print yet)   Ports are great, but they are better in a Stax version than a pure tempo version, imo.   From the data I've seen, Port is very rarely played, City of Traitors and Factories are heavily played, often in combination.   Factory, however, sees by far the most play of the three.     

[Bill Copes]

I just goldfished Steve's aggro MUD list a bunch.  Half the time you end up with 15 points of damage on the board by turn 2.  RE.  TAR.  DED.  Only slot I'm not sold on is Razormane.  I don't like the discard part.  It seems to cut you off dropping more spheres a good portion of the time.  It should probably just be the 4th sculpting steel or something.

I don't own 4x City of traitors, so I tried 2 Ghost Quarter in those slots.  I figure they might be half decent right now.  3/4 of our opponents are running Shops, Bazaars or Orchards.  We don't want to let any of them stick around for any period of time.   Even in the latter case, I don't think I'd care much if I turned an Orchard into basic Island.  I'm going to up the count to 4 (I run 61 cards, because I'm terrible), by cutting Razormane and Mana Vault.  I'll post some results when I actually get to play.

[Smmenen]

I just goldfished Steve's aggro MUD list a bunch.  Half the time you end up with 15 points of damage on the board by turn 2.  RE.  TAR.  DED.  Only slot I'm not sold on is Razormane.  I don't like the discard part.  It seems to cut you off dropping more spheres a good portion of the time.  It should probably just be the 4th sculpting steel or something.

As I said in the article today, if you don't like Razormane, cut it and the mana vault for two su-chi or synod centurion.  The Razormane in the main saves a sb slot for the Fish matchup, and that silly Ochoa-Trygon Predator deck.  

Another thing, while I would love to go to 4 Sculpting Steel (all of my decks are 4s and 1s), the key cards they will stop are Juggernaut and Lodestone Golem, making Sculpting steel just another Sphere.   You really do want another beater or two. 

[voltron00x]

Ashok and Eisenhauer talked me into testing Ghost Quarter when they were working on Meandeck Murderball, which is basically this deck. 

If you're expecting a lot of other MUD decks, or Dredge, the card is awesome.  Its pretty unfair if you're packing 7 or 8 strips to your opponents 5.

[Prospero]

Ashok and Eisenhauer talked me into testing Ghost Quarter when they were working on Meandeck Murderball, which is basically this deck. 

If you're expecting a lot of other MUD decks, or Dredge, the card is awesome.  Its pretty unfair if you're packing 7 or 8 strips to your opponents 5.

http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=40170.0

3rd – Raffaele Forino
Espresso Stax

4 Chalice of the Void
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Pearl
1 Sol Ring
1 Mana Vault
3 Sphere of Resistance
4 Thorn of Amethyst
4 Crucible of Worlds
4 Serum Powder
4 Tangle Wire
1 Trinisphere
4 Lodestone Golem
4 Smokestack
3 Karn, Silver Golem
1 Strip Mine
1 Tolarian Academy
3 Ghost Quarter (2 foil, 1 non-foil)
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Mishra’s Workshop
4 Wasteland

SB:
4 Leyline of the Void
3 Tormod’s Crypt
3 Pithing Needle
3 Null Rod
2 Duplicant


Raf top 4'd with this list on March 20th. 

[madmanmike25]

We played a teensy tiny Vintage tournament yesterday and I ended up splitting for 1st.  We played it out just for fun and I ended up winning with this list:

4 Lodestone
3 Juggernaut

4 Smokestack
4 Tangles
1 Trini
4 Thorn
4 Sphere
4 Rod
4 Chalice

4 Shops
4 Tombs
4 Wastes
3 Citys
2 Ports
1 Tolarian
1 Strip
9 artifact acceleration

My sb was 4 Relics, 3 Crucibles, 3 Dupes, 3 Needles, and 2 Razormanes

The "meta" was all MUD and one Oath deck.  Good times.  I have a few thoughts:  Null Rod was usually a beating one way or the other meaning it either screwed my opponent or me if he cast one.  Decklists with Crucible main are a HUGE pain as well.  Opposing Sculpting Steels are good in the Mirror too, though I still dislike the card in principle.  Razormane is a HOUSE against opposing Lodestones and Juggs.  Sick.  One opponent won the game when he animated my Crucible with Karn then during the draw phase killed it with Razor.  It's odd but he ran both Null Rod and Karn AND Serum Powders.  Another sneaky thing is when he used Powder to get Leyline, another good card vs. MUD since its pretty common knowledge we typically bring in or maindeck Crucibles.

One game I had three Workshops in hand, some other mana, and a lone Chalice.  Almost for fun, I decided to keep and somehow won the game.  Lots of mana was actually a good thing for once.

Smokestack tore it up for me winning crucial games.  In fact I would have lost a game if my opponent had decided to amp his Smoke, but decided to play safe.  Don't underestimate this card.

Lodestone is pretty mediocre vs. MUD.  It's just a 'smarter' Juggernaut that knows when to hold back.  That being said, I wouldn't sb them out, a win-con is still a win-con.  I even won a game on the back of a turn 1 Jugg and CotV@0.  That reminded me why I think Chalice is superior to Rod.

All in all I am happy with the list.  City of Traitors comes in pretty handy in MUD mirrors.  I also like the 32 threat / 28 mana source split.  And look, I ran Juggs and Smoke in the same deck!  OMG how???

p.s. I don't think any of the MUD decks ran Metalworker.

[grahaminator]

One opponent won the game when he animated my Crucible with Karn then during the draw phase killed it with Razor.  It's odd but he ran both Null Rod and Karn AND Serum Powders.  Another sneaky thing is when he used Powder to get Leyline, another good card vs. MUD since its pretty common knowledge we typically bring in or maindeck Crucibles.

....

Smokestack tore it up for me winning crucial games.  In fact I would have lost a game if my opponent had decided to amp his Smoke, but decided to play safe.  Don't underestimate this card.

That was me on both of those incidents >_<. I punted a few important games due to play errors on my part because of my unfamiliarity with Smokestack. The last time I used them was in when I used to play 5c Stax back when Trinisphere was new. After quitting for 4-5 years I came back and mostly played MUD Domination. Below is the list I played, its mostly the list from 2 posts up with a couple changes (I'm sure the creator thinks I'm a huge noob for making the changes I did).

3 Karn, Silver Golem
4 Lodestone Golem

4 Chalice of the Void
3 Crucible of Worlds
3 Null Rod
4 Serum Powder
3 Smokestack
4 Sphere of Resistance
4 Tangle Wire
3 Thorn of Amethyst

1 Black Lotus
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mana Vault
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Pearl
1 Sol Ring

4 Ancient Tomb
3 Ghost Quarter
4 Mishra’s Workshop
1 Strip Mine
1 Tolarian Academy
4 Wasteland

Sideboard:
1 Crucible of Worlds
2 Duplicant
4 Leyline of Sanctity
4 Leyline of the Void
1 Null Rod
2 Razormane Masticore
1 ? Don't have my list with me, was fiddling with it at lunch before the tourney

As for the changes:
First off I don't like Trinisphere when using multiple sphere effects, too often it is dead (I would however use it if I was only running Sphere and not Thorn). I wish I knew how to do the math to figure out what are the chances of drawing it along with a combination of mana sources equaling 3 or more mana in your opening hand...I just can't imagine it is a high enough percentage to warrant its inclusion. A switch I will make in the future if I play a variant of this is again is to swap the Ghost Quarters for Rishadan Ports since they are more flexible. I omitted 1 Crucible from the main due to not wanting to get flooded with multiple Crucibles game 1 against random decks (I didnt know EVERYONE would be playing MUD) and 1 Smokestack because 3 had always served me fine back when I used to play with it. Problem with that line of thinking is the deck was completely different from past decks I had used it in which were early MUD lists and pre 2005 stax. Black Lotus was added as a 61st card because of the chance for explosiveness early and at worst it can power activated abilities/help power out spells through spheres later; it also only dilutes the chances of drawing something else that is a 3 or 4 of to less than a half a percent less.

I know the the Null Rods are not synergistic with all the artifact mana but I still felt that they would provide enough of a mana lock to really hose the opponent with Wire, Stack, and Spheres, and 8 strips. Keep in mind all of these decisions were made while I was at lunch, all theorizing and no playtesting. Due to work I hadn't really played Vintage in months since the only day I was able to make tournaments was Legacy day. All I knew was that MUD with Null Rod was going to rape MUD Domination if I didnt win the die roll, drop Metalworker on the first turn, have a decent hand, AND have the opponent not have Null Rod in his first 8 cards.

[madmanmike25]

Sure, I'll update the MUD thread mainly because I think the yes/no Rod and yes/no Jugg debate is pretty much played out and not really accomplishing anything new in the way of a decklist.

I have been reading how people believe Workshop decks (including MUD) are a 'bad' choice.  Funny how it doesn't stop some of us from winning, even if we don't make it to all the big events.  All quibbling aside, and yes there is a ton of quibbling, I thought maybe we should have a little discussion on which direction to take MUD if people go ape-shit over maindeck Trygons.  It's business time, kiddies.

To get the ball rollilng, we already have known what cards to play;  Triskelion and/or Duplicant.  Now the question is which, if not both, of these cards to run and in what quantities.

Personally I have always preferred Trikes.  The reasons are that 1.)  It is proactive and I dont have to wait to cast it if my opponent has no creatures.  A 4/4 trumps a 2/4 Dupe.  2.)  Trike can kill multiple creatures, which can be viewed as card advantage of sorts.  3.)  Trike has synergy with Karn to kill 1-3cc artifacts.  4.) Trike buys you a wee little bit of time if you are against Oath and you have been given tokens.  Combined with Wasteland it has solved the problem until you get Smokestack out, or they get another Orchard.

Duplicant also has it's merits.  1.)  With the exception of Inkwell, Dupe answers Tinker whereas Trike cannot.  2.)  Dupe answers Goyfs?  That's only a question because I really haven't seen too many Tarmogoyfs across the table or online for that matter.  3.)  No issues with Null Rod.  4.)  Answers 1 Oath creature, and only one...  I'll let others praise Duplicant in more detail if they so wish.

So, what if we started with a mix of:

3 Trikes
2 Duplicants
2 Karns (don't forget he answers inkwell)

Truth be told, Karn really costs 6+ mana to have an immediate effect on the game state.  One could easily argue 3-4 Trikes AND 3-4 Dupes in the same deck in Karns place.

We should also entertain the idea of 1-2 maindeck Platinum Angels as disruptive creatures.  Why not?  Does that 1 extra cc really make it uncastable?  Sb Platz is too easy to kill, but ask yourself how many decks can reliably deal with her game one......and keep in mind that a flying 4/4 to the face is no small clock.

Let's actually get some progress going to show them Shop decks are indeed a force to be reckoned with.

[meadbert]

Sure, I'll update the MUD thread mainly because I think the yes/no Rod and yes/no Jugg debate is pretty much played out and not really accomplishing anything new in the way of a decklist.

I will have more to say, but probably not for a few more weeks.

Regarding maindeck Trygons:  How much of a problem are they?  I have not tested against Trygon Tez yet, but in testing against Noble Fish with Maindeck Trygons I did not find they were especially troubling.  They were a good card for sure, but it is very difficult for Fish to get those 3 mana reliably.
I realize that Trygon Tez has a higher mana curve in general and can Drain into Trygon.  Does that make the difference?
Basically is there a viable game plan that can be built around keeping them from being played or must we give up on that and go for an answer instead?

We should also entertain the idea of 1-2 maindeck Platinum Angels as disruptive creatures.  Why not?  Does that 1 extra cc really make it uncastable?  Sb Platz is too easy to kill, but ask yourself how many decks can reliably deal with her game one......and keep in mind that a flying 4/4 to the face is no small clock.

The extra 1 cc cost versus Trike and Dups is significant.  What I discovered when testing Tez vs Bargain was that at lower costs extra 1cc matters less, but at higher costs they matter more.  The difference between Tormod's Crypt and Spell Pierce rarely matters because both are available on turn 1.  Even Mana Leak is usually available on turn 1.  Mana Drain is usually available on turn 2 along with Thirst.  Jump to Gifts and it may or may not be available by turn 3.  The trouble is in type 1 you start with 2 mana sources you can play on turn 1.  Then you drop a land a turn for a few turns but at some point you start missing land drops.  This means that waiting to get from 5 to 6 mana in a Drain deck might mean waiting 2 turns.  The same is true is all decks.
Basically the difference in cost between Tangle and Smokey is not THAT huge because frequently they come on line the same turn or Smokey is maybe 1 turn later.
The difference between Smokey and Karn is usually a turn.  Karn and Dups is still usually a turn, but can easily become two turns.  By the time you go from Dups/Trike to Platz you are looking at probably 2 turns on average.  It is worse going to Titan.

If the extra 1cc did not matter that much then I would probably jump straight to Titan rather than using Platz.  It takes 3 swings instead of 5 (which means it is still faster if played a turn later.)  Also, the disruption is huge.

A huge exception to all of this if if you play Metalworkers.  With worker out almost any topdeck (Everything but Strip/Waste?) becomes 2 more mana so an additional 1cc is not so bad.  That only applies when worker is out though.  Without worker you are stuck waiting a while.


Goblin Welder?
Welder may be considered outside the scope of Mud, but one way for Shops to answer Trygon is with Welder since you can use Welder activations to counter Trygon's destroy ability.

Ensnaring Bridge?
This is slightly tough to pull off because you must not only get Bridge out, but you must also dump your hand, but if Trygons tend to hit on turn 4 then dumping your hand is no problem.  If Trygons are coming out turn 2 then this is more problematic.  Answering Trygon, Inky and Sphinx with one card that costs 3 seems pretty nice.
One issue is that Bridge does not play well with Dups and Trike.  First Bridge prevents them from attacking too which is annoying.
Second, you are likely to get stuck with Trike and Dups in hand which may allow your opponent to attack with Trygon, Bridge tokens or Warrens tokens.

[Smmenen]

Sure, I'll update the MUD thread mainly because I think the yes/no Rod and yes/no Jugg debate is pretty much played out and not really accomplishing anything new in the way of a decklist.

I will have more to say, but probably not for a few more weeks.

I comprehensively addressed this issue in my article this week, showing how false it is. 

[madmanmike25]

Regarding maindeck Trygons:  How much of a problem are they?

Let's just say there is a high correlation between an opponent resolving Trygon and said opponent winning the game.  Unless your opponent is down to 5 life and is forced to block with Trygon, your odds of winning go down like the Titanic.

Maindeck we have to tools to delay/prevent Trygon:  Lodestone, Spheres, Tangles, and Smoke.  If one slips through SOME amount of Trikes/Dupes should be maindeck, and thats the point I'm trying to make here.

Your suggestion of E.Bridge isn't really that bad, but it tends to have bad synergy with Lodestone Golem.  You can build your deck to suit Bridge though:

1.)  Play with Bottled Cloister.  Your opponent can't attack you, and you get 2 cards a turn to ensure that Bridge will be mostly 1-sided.
2.)  Play Bazaar of Baghdad.  This is probably best done in conjunction with Uba Mask.  The upside is that your opponent really doesn't have to be drawing cards off spells.....one card RFG'd a turn can be brutal enough.  The downside is that you have slowed your own deck as well since you need to find Smokestack (resolving should be no issue if your opponents counters are Uba'd) to get rid of Bridge.

One other black mark on Bridge is that in sb games, your opponent can just destroy it with the artifact hate they bring in.  If they destroy Dupe/Trike, it's too late since they already did their job of killing Trygon.  Both strategies can be countered obviously so thats pretty moot.

A huge exception to all of this(high cc creatures) is if you play Metalworkers.

Yeah, that's what I was trying to imply.  Even in a Metalworker build I don't think I would ever run Titan.  6-7 mana is a good cap.  Just food for thought.

[Smmenen]

Titan actually seems insane right now, in a Jace format.   If I were to play Metalworker, I would definitely play Titan.   

[madmanmike25]

Really?  Seeing as how 90% of the time you would have to cast Titan off Metalworker, care to explain how Titan would be better than a card such as Staff of Domination?

Then again, if you are going for the 8cc dream how about Possessed Portal?

[meadbert]

I just tested against the Trygon deck.  I am depressed.  All of the Mud lists I tested got crushed.
The Uba Stax list I tested did slightly better but still lost pretty convincingly.

EDIT:  I might take 2 pages out of Steve's book and test Maze of Ith + Tabernacle with Expedition Maps.
I will also probably be reducing my Sculpting Steel counts and moving Factories to Rishadan Ports.

So maybe -4 Steel, -3 Factory, +4 Port, +1 Maze, +1 Tabernacle, + 1 Karn.

Something like that.

[Bibendum]

I'm at work so I don't have my list on mr but 3 ports 2 mazes md 2 in the board and 3 maps between md and board have helped, not the begin all end all answers but they have made that matchup marginally better

[madmanmike25]

Yeah Ports are pretty amazing at stopping sorcery speed spells.  I've been advocating them in MUD for a long time.  Earlier i wanted to know how MUD players are splitting Trikes/Dupes either maindeck or sb.  Meadbert, could you tell us what you tested in that regards?  Typically I run a pair of Razors (in addition to Dupes) in my sb, but they need to hit first obv.

[Smmenen]

I just tested against the Trygon deck.  I am depressed.  All of the Mud lists I tested got crushed.
The Uba Stax list I tested did slightly better but still lost pretty convincingly.

EDIT:  I might take 2 pages out of Steve's book and test Maze of Ith + Tabernacle with Expedition Maps.
I will also probably be reducing my Sculpting Steel counts and moving Factories to Rishadan Ports.

So maybe -4 Steel, -3 Factory, +4 Port, +1 Maze, +1 Tabernacle, + 1 Karn.

Something like that.

Titans + Tabernacle seems good against Trygon.

If Trygon blows up Titan, oh well.   

[meadbert]

Yeah Ports are pretty amazing at stopping sorcery speed spells.  I've been advocating them in MUD for a long time.  Earlier i wanted to know how MUD players are splitting Trikes/Dupes either maindeck or sb.  Meadbert, could you tell us what you tested in that regards?  Typically I run a pair of Razors (in addition to Dupes) in my sb, but they need to hit first obv.

I only tested one list with Worker.  That list had 3 maindeck Trikes and Dups.  (I only tested maindecks.)
It also had 4 Lodestone Golem (obv) and 2 Karn.

Of the Mud variants this did the best.  Basically with Worker you are in business.  Crucially Worker cannot be Pierced although it can be Thoughtseized and the Trygon deck had 3 Seize.

The trouble is without Worker there are too many potentially dead cards.

[GrandpaBelcher]

With inspiration from BC's Gencon tournament report (http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=40945.0) and a healthy man-love for Goblin Welder, I went back to running the little ashtray maker who could alongside Lodestones and Bazaars.  Welder comes down early and makes Trygon Predator much less of an issue.  Not to mention it gives you a leg up against counterspells, MUD decks, and artifact destruction.

[Bibendum]

I was attempting to toss together a list that was more conventional stax with welder included for obvious reasons. The problem I noticed was adding the right amount of sources without weakening the explosive potential of a stax deck. How did you work around this in your particular build?

[Kotch]

Sorry for my approximative english...

Steel Hellkite 6
Artifact creature - Dragon
Flying
2 : Steel Hellkite gets +1/+0 until end of turn
X : Destroy each nonland permanent with converted mana cost X whose controller was dealt damage by Steel Hellkite this turn. Activate this ability only once each turn.
5/5

This guy seems to fit very well in MUD's strategy : punching and disrupting in the same card, isn't that we expect from MUD fatties?

Of course, it doesn't replace Triskelion and his ability to ping creatures without summoning sickness, and his abiities are still shut down by Null Rod. But he beats harder, with Evasion, and he is able to block Trygon Predator on the turn it is cast. No need to mention that his ability, when touching an opponent, to deal as well with mana artifacts and Fish or any creatures, can be a "oops I win" effect, for a ridiculous activation cost.

A friend of mine won a small tournament with an Aggro-MUD list, playing Lightning Greaves instead of Sword of Fire and Ice, and I found this idea very sexy. Being able to gain a turn by attacking sooner with a Golem, AND giving him Shroud was very seducing. Lightning Greaves is still better with Steel Hellkite, anabling him to disrupt opponent on the turn it is cast.

The only drawback of the new Hellkite being his mana + activation cost (which are less relevant for MUD), Metalworkers seem appropriated.

Steel-Style MUD :
4 Mishra's Workshop
4 Ancient Tomb
3 City of Traitors
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
1 Tolarian Academy
5 Moxen
1 Black Lotus
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mana Vault
1 Sol Ring
4 Metalworker
4 Lodestone Golem
3 Triskelion
3 Steel Hellkite
2 Karn Silver Golem
4 Thorn of Amethyst
3 Sphere of Resistance
1 Trinishpere
4 Tangle Wire
4 Chalice of the Void
2 Lightning Greaves

SB 3 Crucible of Worlds
SB 3 Pithing Needle
SB 3 Relic of Progenitus
SB 3 Powder Keg
SB 2 Duplicant
SB 1 Sphere of Resistance

About Black Lotus and Mana Vault, I prefer maximising the probability to cast a Golem on turn 1, even if sometimes I might be mana-disrupted the turn later. I win more games thanks to this explosivity, than I loose games because of a lack of mana stability. But I understand why some people prefer to cut Lotus, Vault and maybe a City a Traitors for 2 or 3 Mishra's Factories or Rishadan Ports. Also, not playing Null Rod allows me to rely on my artifact mana sources. Plus, the 4 Metalworkers help to fix my 26 other mana sources. And finally, the 3 Crucible of Worlds in sideboard help to deal with opponent's Wastelands, and add some more mana-denial vs appropriate matchups.

Sideboard has to be adjusted. Jester's Cap and Eon Hub can be used, but I believe that Control decks have too many kills and ways to kill, making those cards less relevant. I keep a Sphere in the sideboard just because the French metagame have lots of Fishy-mana-denial decks, but I think it is not the case in U.S. so it might be in the maindeck.


Anyway, I believe that Steel Hellikte is a very good print for MUD and I can't wait to see the full list of Scars of Mirrodin!

[madmanmike25]

Anyway, I believe that Steel Hellikte is a very good print for MUD and I can't wait to see the full list of Scars of Mirrodin! 

Agreed on both counts.  Too many good things coming out so I think I'll wait to see the full set before updating the thread.  It's looking like Robots are trying to smash and destroy Vintage.
 
 
 

[madmanmike25]

Alright, let’s see what Scars of Mirrodin can do for MUD.  The card I’m most interested in is Kuldotha Forgemaster.  He has basically given Shop decks something else to consider when deciding on whether or not to run Null Rod:  Opportunity cost.  Maybe you thought Karns ability was nice and didn't really care if it got axed by your own Null Rod, but this effect is just too powerful to ignore.  It’s possible that Forgemaster can go in MUD combo, but I wanted something much more stable.  Here’s the list I have been testing:

Creatures: 12
4 Lodestone Golem
4 Kuldotha Forgemaster
1 Karn
1 Duplicant
1 Platinum Angel
1 Sundering Titan

Artifact Disruption: 21
4 Chalice
4 Sphere
4 Thorn
4 Tangle
1 Trinishpere
4 Smokestack

Lands+Mana: 27
4 Mishras Workshop
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Wasteland
3 Rishadan Port
1 Tolarian Academy
1 Strip Mine
1 City of Traitors
9 SoLoMoxenCryptVault

The deck has a pretty nice mana curve.

My main concern is that I don’t want to run targets with too high of a cc.  So far I think Titan is the best ‘Tinker’ target.  Taking 2+ lands and leaving a 3 turn clock is pretty much gg under Sphere effects.   Yes, I have been able to hardcast him.  Possessed Portal might be worth testing, but for now I want legs.

Wait, why no Key+Vault?  There are only 4 Forgemasters.  I tested with Key and Vault and it was pretty inconsistent.  Too often I would see Key or Vault and no Forgemaster.  I do not want to make a bad deck if I don’t get to resolve Forgemaster.  Drawing one card per turn is not the best way to assemble Key+Vault.  This is not my final list, just a solid starting point so they may work their way back in.  In fact I'd prefer if they do because if Shop decks start running Key+Vault maybe Wizards would get the hint...

I usually run 28 sources, but so far have been able to get away with the 27 here.  So far the weakest ‘Tinker’ target is Angel so if mana is a problem I can take her out for a land or even a Metalworker.  The other alternative is to run Steel Hellkite or a Triskelion.  I chose Angel because she flies and has an immediate effect on the gamestate.

The good thing about this deck is that it doesn’t lose outright to Null Rod.  The 3/5 trades nicely with 5/3’s.  Also a 3/5 is pretty good against a 2/2 hatebear even if it’s exalted.  Smokestack can still do it's thing under Rod.

I’m quite sure others have been testing Forgemaster in non-combo shells.  I’m curious to see how the lists will differ.  Discuss.

[the42up]

i have been testing him with fairly surprising results as well.

Its nice to finally do something with a spent tanglewire rather than feed it to the smokestack... or the trinisphere that is just sitting there now. To top things off, he can eat himself in a pinch.

You have already mentioned the best part about him as well, well the best oft unnoticed part: his 3/5 body.

Honestly, i am torn from playing a more traditional mud set with lodestones and forgemasters with a few search targets (such as hellkite, angel, karn and sundering/darksteel) or full on aggro mud with swords of fire/ice, metal workers, a set of steel hellkites and roll.


As for search targets, even though a creature is nice, sometimes grabbing that smokestack is oh so nice....or even a single copy of ratchet bomb.

[the42up]

forgot to mention-
contagion clasp as a singleton is not too shabby either in MUD. The never ending tangle wire and a smokestack that can wipe the board twice as fast is wonderful!

as well as nabbing the singleton trinisphere


OR running MEMORY JAR!

[defector]

I think Contagion Clasp is too non Workshop mana intensive and seems to force one down the Metalworker path and away from Null Rod. MUD and STAX seem to have finally gotten to the threshold for artifact pieces where design directions is very multi faceted, love that nothing short of awesome. For the straight up highly redundant don't want to think about it, swing, kind of aggro deck I have loved Rusted Relic in testing. He is metalcrafted on turn one relatively often and always afterward and solves the threat density problem that Lodestone+Jugs+Sculpting Steel had. I am on a two relics, two steels right now and like it, I might go four relics, we'll see. The only thing that sucks is that its not a guaranteed hot turn one play, although coming back turn two with a 5/5 after turn one Lodestone found FOW has been cool. Anyway, need to do more testing. It seems that the Null Rod Aggro MUD deck is a lot like the old school sui black decks, its redundant, fast and blunt. At the very least its a classic race against the Trygon control player. Which is the optimal MUD though I still don't have a great answer for, just a feeling that the Null Rod versions are stronger for the vintage environment.

[Neonico]

There are 2 things that i tested in a similair shell, with really interesting results :
 - 1 lone Crucible of Wolrds to tutor for the Strip/waste lock or have a better smokestack control when needed
 - 1 lone memory jar, because well, it's allways good to rebuild a hand when you have Forgemaster active in the mid game.

Ratchet bomb is another really interesting choice there.

I also prefered the new empyrion golem better than platinum angel, but both choices are valid IMO.

[madmanmike25]

I usually sb in Crucibles.  I'm more interested in 'bombs' that I can potentially hardcast.  Memory Jar might do the trick, but it feels better in combo or with Metalworker.

I like the new Golem as well, an 8/8 is a good clock.  I chose Angel because of the flying, but then again if I'm trying to play around Trygon I have Dupe.  It's a minor note, but Angel is better against Painter or Leyline+Helm decks.

Sb, Im toying around with Darksteel Forge to anwer the obvious Claims/Grudges/Predators.  It also lets your Lodestones stay alive after combat.  I know its pricey, but seems like it might be worth it as a singleton.

[Bosaapje]

Hello guys,

Since I while I run this list here:

Mana:

1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mana Vault
1 Mana Crypt
1 Sol Ring
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Workshop
2 City of Traitors
4 Mishra's Factory
1 Strip Mine
4 Wasteland
1 Tolarian Academy

Creature:

2 Karn, Silver Golem
4 Lodestone Golem
2 Razormane Masticore
2 Steel Hellkite
2 Wurmcoil Engine

Spheres and shizzle:

4 Sphere of Resistance
4 Tangle Wire
2 Thorn of Amethyst
1 Trinisphere
4 Sculpting Steel


Sideboard:

4 Null Rod
3 Pithing Needle
3 Powder Keg
3 Tormod's Crypt
1 Duplicant
1 Relic of Progenitus

I tested the deck with Null Rod mainboard but I wasn't quite happy about. Okay, it slows a lot of the combo deck down but I couldn't play Karn, Trikes or Steel Hellkite. So I was a bit testing with the deck and came up with this. Now I was thinking to totally get rit of Karn and put 3 Hellkites and 3 Wurmcoil Engines in the deck. This because Hellkite can eat Moxes and normally, I don't use the ability so I can attack with my own artifacs, so Karn is a bit unnecassery. So I was thinking to put 3 Hellkites and 3 Engines in the deck. Is that a good idea, or shall I just keep Karn in, because he's really necessary to kill all the stuff on the other side. Also, you can attack with Hellkite and block with him. Karn becomes a wall and that's it.

Now a bit abou the sideboard. Duplicant is lonely in there so I was thinking, what if I remove 1 Crypt and 1 Duplicant to insert 2 Crucible of Worlds, for the mirror match. Is it a good idea or is it blasphemy?

Cheers,

Maarten