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Author Topic: BwU control  (Read 3535 times)
smasher
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« on: January 25, 2010, 01:57:13 pm »

The idea behind this deck comes after losing quite a few games to tezzeret decks resolving dark confidant and eventually killing through the attack phase while controlling the game with all the extra cards.

I'm not looking to build a combo deck so leave your "add time vault combo" comments to appropriate threads. This just isn't the way I like to win a game of magic.

Before I go into any other details lets look at the current deck list I'm working with.

Creatures
4x Dark confidant
4x Jotun Grunt
2x Sower of temptation

Disruption and answers
4x Duress
3x Thoughtseize
4x FoW
4x Drain
1x Misdirection
1x Diabolic edict
2x Repeal

Draw/Tutors
1x Time walk
1x Ancestral recall
1X Brainstorm
1x Ponder
2x Sensei's tops
1x Demonic tutor
1x Vampiric tutor
1x Mystical tutor
1x Merchant scroll
1x Library of alexandria

5x Moxen
1x Lotus
7x Fetchlands
2x Underground sea
2x Tundra
2x Island
1x Swamp

2 tops made sense combining with bobs.

Repeals are a pretty nice time walk against aggro and can draw 2 cards with the tops.

Jotun Grunt recycling Ancestral and tutors seemed really good and has been in testing. So good that Imperial seal should probably make its way in the deck.
Putting back good cards in the upkeep and fetching to get them off the bottom of the deck is what you would like to be doing every turn. Combining shuffling with tops its fairly easy to see a tutor for ancestral then play it turn after turn.

The sowers are in the deck to help the aggro match and keep the blue count high enough for fow's. It's pretty nice as well with so many different decks running dark confidants. Everything from fish and tezz to some shop and tendrils builds.

The sideboard is going to focus on shop and dredge matchups.
Probably the Mull to leyline plan and protect it from bounce with counter magic against dredge.
Some combination of Hurkyls, Rebuild, Darkblast, and possibly energy flux against shops.
Any remaining slots will probably be geared towards oath and aggro

Cards being considered for inclusion are Thirst for knowledge, 1 Darkblast maindeck, 1 extirpate maindeck, 1 hurkyls or rebuild maindeck, and as mentioned earlier the imperial seal. Lastly, one more mana source, probably a basic.

Cards I considered but chose not to play...

Tinker/Robot- With the grunts in the deck it just felt like more high drops to flip to bob and an extra wincon that wasn't needed.

Fact or Fiction- Another 4 drop to flip off Bob and felt unnecessary with the recycling ancestal plan.

Yawg Will- Nothing to combo into from the yard and conflicts with jotun grunts role in the deck.

Wastelands/Strip mine- Still on the fence about these. They would weaken my manabase overall and would probably have to cut off color moxen to fit them in. I want to resolve bob turn 1 or tutor for recall turn 1.

Vendilion Clique- One of the better blue creatures ever printed for sure but I just don't have the room and isn't like I'm hurting for wincons.

I will admit playtesting has only been around 30 games and I haven't faced all common archetypes yet but I am gearing the sideboard to deal with anticipated bad matchups. Dredge and Shops both of which I need to playtest against.

What I have faced so far is BU tezz which I did really well against. "The deck" which is ok as long as I can get my basics out and then counter crucible. Versus fish It has been pretty good although I haven't played enough variations to get a good feel overall. Against tendrils Unless I got blown out turn 1 the high number of my counters and duress effects make this a favorable matchup. No testing against oath yet either and I anticipate needing a couple board cards for this.

So far the deck seems very synergistic and quickly overwhelms with card advantage. Any suggestions are welcome.

If you have any inclination to play a fish style deck please give this some playtesting love. Early results have shown the deck to be strong and fun to play.

Thanks for reading.
Smasher







« Last Edit: January 25, 2010, 02:01:28 pm by smasher » Logged

Nether Void is absolutely terrible. I can't envision any game I've played with The Deck where I would have wanted everything to be mana leaked.
scifiantihero
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« Reply #1 on: January 29, 2010, 11:26:50 am »

That deck doesn't look any more strained for mana than the other ones that play wastelands.  It seems like they'd help with shops and dredge.  I guess their power is diminished if you aren't going to run any other mana disruption, though.   How do you feel about that so far?  (I personally love wastes/rods/stifles and it feels unnatural not to have them around when I play!)

This IS the appropriate thread for 'have you tested vault/key?' (I'm only being a little snarky, but it DOES seem on par with recurring time walk and tutors with a grunt)

Wink
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Killane
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« Reply #2 on: January 29, 2010, 12:45:57 pm »

The idea behind this deck comes after losing quite a few games to tezzeret decks resolving dark confidant and eventually killing through the attack phase while controlling the game with all the extra cards.

I'm not looking to build a combo deck so leave your "add time vault combo" comments to appropriate threads. This just isn't the way I like to win a game of magic.


Please take a moment to read what I have to say on this issue with an open mind.

What is your goal with this deck? Are you designing to have fun at FNM/Kitchen Table, or are you designing it to win? This is an important question to think about and answer when building and tuning a deck.

If oyur answer is "I am building this deck with the goal of having fun being more important than winning", then stop reading my post. (or skip to the big bold "or" for some points that don;t involve key/vault) Right now. Nothing else I have to say will be relevant for you.

However, if your answer is"I am building this deck with the goal of winning being more important than having fun", then I question your statement. The fact is, you've built a deck full of tutors, draw, and recursive elements that would help you get destroyed/coutnered cards back. You have quite of bit of permission and plenty of ways to win in extra turns. What you don't have is anything broken, or anything to stop things from being broken.

Unfortunately, Vintage as a formet is about being broken. As a Vintage player who has the goal of winning, we need to accept that.

If our goal is to have fun and play moxen, then go ahead, go nuts. I know if I had time to play casual magic I'd be brewing up something with Black Lotuts and the janky Goblin Bombardment/Reins of Power combo in the same deck becuase that's the sort of thing I like to play. However, I'm here to win. In order to that, I need to accept the following:

Sometimes, no matter how much you don't like a choice, you have to accept that it's the right choice for your deck.

I love Progenitus. My inner Timmy squeals with excitement every time I see him in my binder. Unfortunately, playing him in Oath in not right for the current metagame. So he sits in my binder, waiting for a home, or waiting for me to pick up some Natural Orders and play him in legacy. When I switched form Progenitus in Oath to double dragon (this was pre-Zendikar), my win percentage DOUBLED. Was it as fun? No, but I let go of my inner Timmy and embraced my inner Spike, and I won more. I accheived what I was trying to accomplish.

The next step was to move on from Oath entirely and embrace Storm Combo, but that's another story and it's very meta-specific.

My point is, if you want to win. Key/Vault will win you games. It will win you alot of games that you won't win otherwise. It will win you the occaisional game on turn One, and plenty on turns two, three, and four, which is something that your current deck simply cannot do, and soemthing that you may need to do against certain archetypes. Dredge seems like an Aweful match-up for you, near unwinnable. Oath runs almost as much permission and their wincon very much trumps yours. You say BU Tezz has been fine- was the person running it at a skill level sufficient to make this claim? I don't see how their instant win vs your 3-5 attack phase win backed by the same permission and more broken spells doesn't trump your strategy.

How was the Storm pilot you tested against? I only ask because your decklist looks like somethign I would walk right over, and I'm certainly not the best Storm pilot out there by a long long shot. I just don't see how you can deal with that level of bomb density for long enough to kill us.

If however, you could deal with it for 2 or three turns and then take all the rest of the turn, then maybe I could see it. Your deck needs key-vault.

OR

Remember how I said Vintage was about broken things? Well, it can also be about stopping broken things. You have an extremely low curve, why not cut the Top's and some off-color moxen and add Null Rod? It slows down broken starts immensely, stops Key-Vault, and is just awesome. Your last line says Fish - I'm not sure why in a meta topped by an artifact based strategy you would play a "Fish" deck without it's best weapon to combat Broken.dec in all its various incarnations.

As an aside, has 7 duress effects really been that good for you? Don't you just run out of stuff to target, given that they are likely just casting threats after a few turns rather than holding them?

The core of the issue here is that your deck doesn't do what I think are the fundamental rquirements of a Vintage Tournament deck:

Do broken things, or be really really good at stopping them.

Nothing you do is all that broken. And  you don't have really powerful hosers for the format's most broken strategies. In my experience, just permission and discard don't cut it becuase they are one-for-one answers and don't address inevitability.

If none of this rings true for you, I'd honestly suggest Legacy might just be a better format for you. You can do some very broken thigns there, but you don't have to play an "unfair" strategy in order to win. This is no shame- some people just like it better, and maybe that's true for you.
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Cyberpunker
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« Reply #3 on: January 29, 2010, 01:07:17 pm »

I think 4 Duress effects are enough.

-3 Duress
+2 Pithing Needle (Tezz, Vault, Welder, Triskelion, Memory Jar, Grindstone etc).
+1 Night's Whisper (more draw)

EDIT:

It is true that Fish is very good in mainly Tezz meta. If you are facing Shop, Fish can win but I would rather play Tezz Smile
« Last Edit: January 29, 2010, 01:13:06 pm by kooaznboi1088 » Logged

Bera
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« Reply #4 on: January 29, 2010, 02:16:24 pm »

I'm the Tezz player mentioned. I find myself as a decent pilot for the deck, I've been playing vault+key since SOA came out (Nov. 08?) and have placed decently when I choose to actually play vault+key in a real tournament.

  Smasher usually designs his decks to defeat artifact combo decks and has done well with his hate decks in real tournaments, this deck is no exception (In testing anyway). He doesn't hate out vault+key, he hates out control in general. He applies extreme pressure, forcing you to make risky plays before he buries you in ancestral recursion and tempo loss caused by sowering your bob/repealing your bob.

Null rod is probably the worst card for our meta right now, even worse than funeral charm because at least funeral charm kills Bob. Null Rod is super dead for us right now because the meta is overrun with fish decks usually making null rod read: "Pay two mana to shut off 3 on color moxen and lotus in opponent's deck and enjoy all of the dead draws in your deck" that being said, makes vault key pointless unless you're running a deck designed to throw it together because then you're fighting through all of the other null rods and are giving them more cards to shut off. Tinker+robot is better than Vault+key in this deck.

IMO, Yotun Grunt is probably one of the most underrated cards right now, you can counter all of the spells you want but if one grunt resolves, you're dead.
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-Ben
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« Reply #5 on: January 29, 2010, 03:56:30 pm »

^_^ great then. I just thought Pithing Needle was necessary to combat random Topdecks. But if testing show otherwise, than more power to you. Maybe more tournament reports can be shared once this deck wins?  Wink

btw for the Dredge match try Ravenous Trap and Bokuju Bog. Trust me. Trap is  Very Happy Surprised Smile  Wink
« Last Edit: January 29, 2010, 03:59:11 pm by kooaznboi1088 » Logged

Bera
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« Reply #6 on: January 29, 2010, 05:23:39 pm »

Big fan of the trap
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-Ben
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« Reply #7 on: January 30, 2010, 02:12:37 am »

Quote
How was the Storm pilot you tested against? I only ask because your decklist looks like somethign I would walk right over, and I'm certainly not the best Storm pilot out there by a long long shot. I just don't see how you can deal with that level of bomb density for long enough to kill us.

I was the TPS player and we only played a few games (four or five?).  I either won very explosively and early against his seemingly mediocre draws or I kept somewhat marginally playable hands (which I probably should have mulled) and got my hand picked apart with Duress/FoW/Drain.  I don't know if it's fair at this point to make any judgments regarding this matchup.

This deck doesn't play Vault/Key for the same reasons the modern Grow deck doesn't play the combo.  Smasher probably wouldn't like to ever draw Key or Vault since they don't do anything by themselves, as opposed to every card currently in the deck.  Billions of Duresses backed by a fast clock and overwhelming advantage is something to be afraid of. 

He surely could fit the combo in at the sacrifice of some disruption, but at that point you're going to want to put in Tinker and possibly Gifts, and Yawg Will, and then maybe a Tezz...and the deck really just becomes your normal Tezz deck.  That may be a bit of a stretch, but in any case, this deck with Vault/Key would look unfocused and pretty bad.  As it is- sure it could be improved - it has been pretty impressive in the little bit of testing we've done. 
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Bera
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« Reply #8 on: January 30, 2010, 04:06:58 am »

I made Eric bust out the RBW deck after the smashing he received at the hands of 2x tezz tonight :>
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-Ben
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« Reply #9 on: January 30, 2010, 04:29:31 am »

Quote
Disruption and answers
4x Duress
3x Thoughtseize
4x FoW
4x Drain
1x Misdirection
1x Diabolic edict
2x Repeal

This just doesn't seem like a Mana Drain deck to me.  I mean, feel free to run them, as they are a hard counter and have no drawback (other than costing UU). 

Those slots could be something else (spell pierce comes to mind, or 4 more random answers).  I understand if you own 4 Drains, you always want to put them in your Force of Will deck, but those slots give you wiggle room to make for a better/focused/streamlined deck.
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Bera
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« Reply #10 on: January 30, 2010, 05:03:46 am »

I'm pretty sure there's 1 or two pierces in the list.
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-Ben
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« Reply #11 on: January 30, 2010, 05:27:37 am »

i stopped reading when i saw diabolic edict instead of swords to plowshares
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Bera
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« Reply #12 on: January 30, 2010, 03:40:36 pm »

i stopped reading when i saw diabolic edict instead of swords to plowshares

Turns out Edict kills inkwell leviathan and doesn't give your opponent a extra turn.
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-Ben
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« Reply #13 on: January 30, 2010, 04:02:11 pm »

My curiosity:

How is this deck's matchup against STAX? In my experience, even with Confidant out, victory is not assured. Confidant (despite what some people would believe) only eases the matchup and makes it kind of even pre-side. I would think that your mana base would be a weakpoint (like all 3 color decks btw), in this matchup. Especially now that Lodestone Golem has made Shop players more willing to go for the kill, since they can lock you down too.

I win against Shop variants game 1 through:

1. TopdeckWins (my favorite way).
2. Lucky Hand and Lucky roll (on the play, with Force turn 1 and Drain turn 2)
3. STAX misplay
4. EXPLOSIVE HAND (Multiple Night's Whispers and Moxen on the play. Eventually leading to tutors or combo or Tinker or Will or Lots of counters!!!)
5. Broken Hand (First-Second turn Tezzeret, Vault, Key, or Tinker)
6. Average but not unlucky hand (1st turn Night's Whisper, 2nd turn counter their threat, 3rd turn more draw and try to survive. Then Tutor for Tinker or Rebuild +KEYVAULT).

This deck seems to rely on a consistent strategy. That has its disadvantages too. You cannot go broken and I think even with Confidant out you cannot survive if Smokestack is out and STAX has you under lock.

So... you must have to race STAX. How does that fare out?

 
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« Reply #14 on: January 30, 2010, 10:41:56 pm »

I know that there are some drastic similarities- but this looks kinda like a BUG fish list running white for jotun grunt in leiu of goyf.  Or a version of "the deck" playing white over green.  I'm not saying it isn't viable, just observing.  If you are looking for a slowroll control win, I suggest dropping confidant and running another draw engine
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Bera
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« Reply #15 on: January 31, 2010, 02:35:08 am »

Smasher not playing Bobs is like a blue deck not playing A.Call
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-Ben
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« Reply #16 on: January 31, 2010, 04:27:44 pm »

This reminds me of the Grow deck that Smmenen's been advocating - Confidants, lots of Duresses, light mana base, no VaultKey, no Null Rod.  It runs a playset of Sleight of Hand, which would probably help this deck too - it'll make your mana more consistent, and keep your Jotun Grunts around longer.

Here's the primer (free), it might give you some ideas.
http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/vintage/18167_So_Many_Insane_Plays_All_About_Bob_Confidant_Control_in_Vintage.html
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« Reply #17 on: January 31, 2010, 06:12:20 pm »

Have you considered Demonic Consultation?

If you play it with a Grunt in play and a Time Walk in hand or in the graveyard,
you can name a card you don't have in your deck to remove your library and then recur Time Walk a couple turns in a row.
It's a pretty neat combo and Consultation is a decent tutor the rest of the time anyway.
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