New Painter/Grindstone deck.

[Konvikt]

Hi guys,

I'm new here after a long while of being absent in the world of MtG I decided to attend a Vintage tournament with a homebrew Painter variation of mine. I made a couple of technical errors which have costed me 2 games otherwise I could have gone 5/6 easily.

I was reading some articles here and there and designed a Painter/Grindstone of my own. It's a hybrid of sorts and took quite a few people by surprise that tournament. I call it "Turbo Painter" since it's a lot faster (1st turn mill) than the other versions I've seen which focus on control/permission.

Here's the Decklist:

Lands 20:

4x Mishra's Workshop
4x Gemstone Mine
4x City of Brass
4x City of Traitors
4x Ancient Tomb

Spells (artifacts) 26:

1x Black Lotus
1x Mox Jet
1x Mox Pearl
4x Mox Diamond
1x Mana Crypt
1x Manavault
1x Sol Ring
1x Lotus Petal
1x Lion's Eye Diamond
4x Grindstone
4x Painter's Servant
1x Time Vault
1x Voltaic Key
4x Serum Powder

Spells (rest)

4x Enlightened Tutor
4x Dark Ritual
1x Demonic Tutor
1x Vampiric Tutor
1x Imperial Seal
3x Leyline of the Void

Sideboard:

4x Chalice of the Void
4x Disenchant
4x Duress
3x Raven's Crime (lots of land in this deck)

This is what I have so far after a tournament tweak. I took out 4 Pact of Negation (I borrowed those) and I had 1 Enlightened Tutor less maindeck. I sideboarded quite a bit for disruption so that was a good choice. I beat a Pro Tour Storm deck, a Goblin deck, another Painter variant I've never seen with Goblins in it and Gamble, lost to a FoW/Goyf deck (Tempothresh?), lost to an Oath deck with several playing errors 1-2 and a deck with Remora/Top.

It's very straightforward. Mostly because I've been out of the game for a bit (all those errata...). It goes for a brute first turn mill. Something like this:

Mishra's Workshop, Painter's Servant, Grindstone, Black Lotus/LeD/Mox Petal + Dark Ritual/Mox + Mana Crypt/Mox + Manavault. If you have half a combo + tutor then it's 2nd turn. Serum Powder lets you refresh your hand better and Time Vault/Key boosts the deck for 2 mana less activation than Painter/Grindstone.

I'd like to know if any of you guys have suggestions for this list. I know it's Duress/FoW sensitive already. But a 1st turn mill is a lovely sight from my point of view. Perhaps a Balance or StP in addition to the side could be handy. City of Brass could be switched to Scrubland as I only have black and white to play with.

Any feedback/suggestions are very welcome!

Peace out!

Charles.

[honestabe]

Red elemental Blast is a must have.  It protects your combo from counters, and is a vindicate with Painter in play.

Also, mox diamond is bad

[meadbert]

As long as you have 3 Leylines, artifact acceleration and Enlighten Tutors, why not run a token Helm?

[Doomsday]

I think you definitely want Tinker

[Konvikt]

@honestabe:

REB vs blue in combination with Painter is very desirable indeed. I'd say that would be a good one for the sideboard instead of Disenchant.

You also say Mox Diamond is bad, do you have a replacement for me?

@meadbert:

I'm assuming you mean Helm of Obedience. This is very good. I like that as a second kill if the Grindstone hits Pithing Needle or smthn.

@Doomsday:

Tinker + Helm of Obedience? Sounds like a very viable combo.

These are the improvements I was hoping for. Keep em coming!!! Tnx guys!

[honestabe]

@honestabe:

REB vs blue in combination with Painter is very desirable indeed. I'd say that would be a good one for the sideboard instead of Disenchant.

You also say Mox Diamond is bad, do you have a replacement for me?

The regular moxen...

Even grim monolith seems better, as it can even combo with voltaic key.  The loss of land from mox diamond is really bad

[Konvikt]

Grim Monolith/Manavault + Voltaic Key combo is one I've never used in this deck. But it is true. My pick for the Mox Diamond was that I didn't want to run on black/white spells in my hand and a green/red/blue mox on the table.

I'll test it tomorrow with a Monolith and perhaps one extra key + Moxen. Along with Helm/Tinker. I'll see what I can come up with.

Tnx.

[silvernail]

The deck has tutors but no other real draw - perhaps add Dark Confidant or if you want a more combo play a few Ad Nauseum . I'd add perhaps Glimmervoid over Mox Diamond ( I generally wouldn't run mox diamond unless you run 22+ land or some massive draw spells to make sure you would have lands to use).

[Liiva]

Hey, I'm the oath player you faced in round 5 and you weren't the only one who made playing errors When I played that tinker with oath in play, my first thought was to go for pithing needle but went for Sphinx instead thinking I would just end the game in 3-4 turns not realizing it would allow you to oath up a painter  Fortunatly for me you didn't draw mana to active your grindstone so I could seal up the game with yawgwill on my turn.

The goblin painter deck you faced is called Imperial Painter which is more popular in legacy than in vintage, the FoW/Goyf deck was BUG Fish.

Now some ideas for your deck. It looks like your deck just scoops game 1 to Null Rod, with 4 Enlightened Tutors you could consider a single Seal of Cleansing. Tinker should definitely be included, probably along with Ancestral Recall. With 26 artifacts in your deck, Tolarian Academy should always be better than City of Traitors. In the sideboard, Goblin Welder would help with both Duress and FoW.

This card comes with worldwake and could/should replace Disenchant:
Nature's Claim 
Instant
Destroy target artifact or enchantment. Its controller gains 4 life.

Good luck with the deck.

[Konvikt]

Tnx Liiva for replying. Getting rid of artifacts/enchantments is very desirable, hence the sideboard. I was thinking Crumble as well but Nature's Claim is better.

I've playtested with Academy and Ancestrall but they were more a liability than helpful. Probably due to limited matchups during playtesting as I never expected Oath or mass goblins.

If I think in long-term play (turn 3 and beyond) with this deck, it's really random. So it does need some draw engine (Ancestrall, etc..) next to the Time Vault + Key combo.

Null Rod kills indeed, just like Pithing Needle . Artifact destruction is needed. Painter + Elemental Blast would do that trick as well.

I'll re-add the Tolarian Academy and matchup a deck that uses FoW/artifacts and see how it goes.

Thanks for the advice!

[Cyberpunker]

This deck is awesome!

I would definitely include 1 Helm of Obedience in there since you run Leylines. Other than that, keep up the good work!

-1 Leyline
+1 Helm

Also -4 Mox Diamond
+1 Mox Emerald
+1 Mox Sapphire
+1 Mox Ruby
+1 Tolarian Academy

NOTE:

I heavily suggest AGAINST using the Grim Monolith+Mana Vault+ Voltaic Key combo. Every combo that needs more than 2 cards is not considered competitive in my book. Especially when Grim Monolith forces you to drop other playable mana sources for it.

BUT if you want
-1 Lion's Eye Diamond (dead in the beginning)
+1 Grim Monolith

[Konvikt]

Great to see you like it! Yeah I really feel that Helm is a great addition to this deck since it provides a second kill. Tinkering for the Helm is a good thing to have.

About the justification for Monolith vs LeD:

LeD kills on first turn:

Workshop, Painter/Grindstone, LeD = Game! (and yes I've had that happen several times during playtesting)

I've had Monolith maindeck but never got the combo with the key. Too bad my playtesting partners are unavailable, I like to try these mods out.

[Cyberpunker]

I'm sorry but I cannot figure out the Mana Vault and Grim Monolith and Key combo. I thought about it and still cannot figure it out lol. You can get 8 mana with those 3 artifacts out though.

[Konvikt]

In this setup of the deck it's a combo with 2 1-off's. Completely expendable, but Manavault + Key nets 4 mana with Brass/Mine on first turn. The only advantage is that you can cast Painter/Grindstone that way, but it can be done without the key as well, you could cast the key 2nd turn and win then.

The Manavault/Dark Ritual/Black Lotus/LeD/Crypt+Mox/Crypt+Sol Ring to provide the 3 mana to activate the Grindstone first turn. I took out the Monolith because it costs 2, same with the Channel.

On another note, when you have a Key you will tutor for the Time Vault and not the Manavault/Monolith. Painter/Grindstone/Time Vault/Key are the main focus of the deck. Along with Tinker and Helm+Leyline it feels more solid.

[voltron00x]

All I'm going to say is that you're close to building something that's reasonably competitive, AND thanks for posting this, its a cool idea.

I have a version that I'm probably going to play in the very near future and I'll post my results somewhere on TMD.

[honestabe]

with the dark rituals, you might want to run necropotence, or maybe grim tutors

[Son of Serra]

Try Demonic Consultation. Basically, it's an instant-speed Demonic Tutor because you have several "4 ofs" and are unlikely to remove your win conditions from the game (unlike like Tezzeret, Oath, etc). Just be careful...

[Konvikt]

All I'm going to say is that you're close to building something that's reasonably competitive, AND thanks for posting this, its a cool idea.

I have a version that I'm probably going to play in the very near future and I'll post my results somewhere on TMD.

I'd like to know what you played (of course) and more importantly what kind of results you achieved!!

It's cool to see people picking this up. I'll try Necro/Consultation a couple of times as well.

[Cyberpunker]

http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=39470.msg551210#msg551210

My results with my own Painter deck.

[the boogie man]

Ancient Grudge seems to be needed somewhere in your 75. A lot of decks playing rod also play force of will, but you can play grudge twice. even something like 2 grudge 3 claim seems like it would cove the bases pretty well.

[KingHeavy]

I would love to make a list of "most argued vintage staple in a given archetype" on threads like this.  Wasn't "painter" out like months ago as a "weak" two card combo that can win, but doesnt.  How is Vault/Key better than Painter/Grindstone.  Mana?  Vault/Key doesnt win, it just allows literal "time" to do your thing.  Painter/stone is an instant win.  Where is vintage going?  Its drivel from basement dwelling dungeon master beard wearing "theorists"  and yet new cards that come out that aren't "instant win" get looked over, while Token/Depths and other extremely efficient combos always get over looked.   Oh look, a one mana counterspel, lets nobody play it!  Its like tunnel vision!!

[Cyberpunker]

I would love to make a list of "most argued vintage staple in a given archetype" on threads like this.  Wasn't "painter" out like months ago as a "weak" two card combo that can win, but doesnt.  How is Vault/Key better than Painter/Grindstone.  Mana?  Vault/Key doesnt win, it just allows literal "time" to do your thing.  Painter/stone is an instant win.  Where is vintage going?  Its drivel from basement dwelling dungeon master beard wearing "theorists"  and yet new cards that come out that aren't "instant win" get looked over, while Token/Depths and other extremely efficient combos always get over looked.   Oh look, a one mana counterspel, lets nobody play it!  Its like tunnel vision!!

I love Dispel. I love Painter. I have seen Painter win a lot. But you do have a point on many people's closemindedness.

I've seen and played enough decks to know that any deck that is given a lot of time and effort can be very good.

[hvndr3d y34r h3x]

I would love to make a list of "most argued vintage staple in a given archetype" on threads like this.  Wasn't "painter" out like months ago as a "weak" two card combo that can win, but doesnt.  How is Vault/Key better than Painter/Grindstone.  Mana?  Vault/Key doesnt win, it just allows literal "time" to do your thing.  Painter/stone is an instant win.  Where is vintage going?  Its drivel from basement dwelling dungeon master beard wearing "theorists"  and yet new cards that come out that aren't "instant win" get looked over, while Token/Depths and other extremely efficient combos always get over looked.   Oh look, a one mana counterspel, lets nobody play it!  Its like tunnel vision!!

Painter grindstone and time vault key are both two card artifact combos that win you the game. That’s about where the similarities end, they are very different. Painter allows you to play multiple copies of your combo, as well as enabling the neat reb/fow/scroll/sotsw interactions. Painter's individual combo pieces are also much more useful than time vault key's pieces (painter alone enabling the neat interactions with other cards and stone a win con by its self, I've won 2 tourney games with just stone, and nullifying top deck tutors). Time vault key is half restricted, but much more cost efficient and synergizes will with tezz, something painter doesn't do despite it being an artifact combo.
Painter grindstone also wins without having you navigate through additional upkeeps, like with time vault key, so if you run bob, you can play greedier hcc spells.
Also running blasts is not necessary, but it does allows for easy null rod removal, can help against aggro matchups, and obviously is good vs blue.
The inculsions of even 4x red can really make your mana base difficult to manage.

[Cyberpunker]

But then there is Oath with Gaea's Blessing. And Painter cries because his 2 card combo just became a 3 card combo. 

[hvndr3d y34r h3x]

But then there is Oath with Gaea's Blessing. And Painter cries because his 2 card combo just became a 3 card combo.  

Or you can just toast the oath with reb and go aggro with bobs, painters, and spirits (at least you do in my list). If you assemble the combo against blessing you still blind grind them when it doesn’t cost you plays on the off chance they drew blessing (you can also make quick note of what they don't have in their hand. Obviously if you take forever, this could be considered stalling). You still sb in an extirpate incase you can make that happen. Against Iona oath you grind them at the end of their turn, and then if they have k rec shenanigans grind them before their draw step. Just having grindstone on the table can buy you some time, although not much, after oath activation in this matchup. There also is the unlikely scenario your  opponent is terrible and this steals you the game, but if your opponent is that bad, you should win anyways.

[Cyberpunker]

But then there is Oath with Gaea's Blessing. And Painter cries because his 2 card combo just became a 3 card combo.  

Or you can just toast the oath with reb and go aggro with bobs, painters, and spirits (at least you do in my list). If you assemble the combo against blessing you still blind grind them when it doesn’t cost you plays on the off chance they drew blessing (you can also make quick note of what they don't have in their hand. Obviously if you take forever, this could be considered stalling). You still sb in an extirpate incase you can make that happen. Against Iona oath you grind them at the end of their turn, and then if they have k rec shenanigans grind them before their draw step. Just having grindstone on the table can buy you some time, although not much, after oath activation in this matchup. There also is the unlikely scenario your  opponent is terrible and this steals you the game, but if your opponent is that bad, you should win anyways.

Thanks for the tips. I usually maindeck a Relic of Progenitus in my Painter lists because it can act as a cantrip when not needed and toast the YawgWin or Crucible or Loam graveyard. And I can use it against Oath.

Game 2:

Painter + Stone + Rav Trap.

[hvndr3d y34r h3x]

If you’re going to spend more mana on your 6 mana combo it better be uncounterable. Extirpate is really the way you want to go. T-crypt in general isn't very good, and relic toasts your own y-will as well. T-crypt, relic, and rav trap aren’t going to do anything against oath that extirpate isn't going to better. You can extirpate a k rec target and potentially steal a lost game, or extirpate a countered oath. Extirpate just does more stuff more of the time than any of the alternatives and your opponent can’t do anything about it. I don't main any grave hate, but in games 1-3 I'd rather have the extirpate.

[Cyberpunker]

If you’re going to spend more mana on your 6 mana combo it better be uncounterable. Extirpate is really the way you want to go. T-crypt in general isn't very good, and relic toasts your own y-will as well. T-crypt, relic, and rav trap aren’t going to do anything against oath that extirpate isn't going to better. You can extirpate a k rec target and potentially steal a lost game, or extirpate a countered oath. Extirpate just does more stuff more of the time than any of the alternatives and your opponent can’t do anything about it. I don't main any grave hate, but in games 1-3 I'd rather have the extirpate.

My painter is mono red though.

[hvndr3d y34r h3x]

No offence, but I'm pretty sure if your looking for the best possable/most consistent list that's wrong. You really want to go urb or ub.

[Cyberpunker]

I won a Mox Diamond with it though. Its consistent and sometimes broken (topdecks). Not much else to say about it.