Problems with "The deck"

[honestabe]

You are incorrect about timetwister.  Just plain wrong.

I'm not an expert, but if you're playing "The Deck" correctly, you should always have more cards in your hand than your opponent, so shouldn't timetwister always be card disadvantage?

[limitedwhole]

"Gorilla Shaman is only better in the control Mirror. Against Null Rod, good luck destroying it without using your moxen, and against MWS.dec is the same. You can't answer Lodestone Golem or Crucible of Worlds."

Well, i often let null rod resolve, but sometimes I counter it.  I only run SoloMox.  Sometimes I eat it.  Crucible is really the key card here not null rod.  I can swords to Plowshare a Lodestone golem, counter a lodestone golem, ancient grudge a lodestone Golem, Disenchant a Lodestone golem, and Put out a platinum Angel and not give a damn about a Lodestone golem.  Crucible is the key card in this match up and whether or not I can counter or wish for ancient grudge is a big deal.  I can also get my own Crucible in play.  My primary plan against stax decks has been and always will be to lock them out under their own cards.

"Bob players don't play City of Brass. Each game that you have two citys, your life count down pretty quickly.
Cunning->Brainstorm is very very slow. It's awful to pay 4 mana for a brainstorm. And the same is said against Skeletal.
Cunning Wish is a slow card in Vintage."
I get to decide when to use a City of Brass.  If you draw the all city openeing hand, yeah thats painful.  2 cities?  No problem.  I don't cunning wish for brainstorm that often.  I normally get answers with the wish.  Its worth noting that you don't have to play the cunning wish and the card you are getting on the same turn.  you can just you know not cast it right away. 

"I think you only play against combo and/or control beacuse your list is too slow against proactive decks like Fish, Oath and Aggro Workshop."
i like y odds.  I tend to play long games with fish accually.  Not fast ones at all.

[limitedwhole]

"I'm not an expert, but if you're playing "The Deck" correctly, you should always have more cards in your hand than your opponent, so shouldn't timetwister always be card disadvantage?"

No, you would only have more cards in hand if you are winning, and or you didn't get mana flooded.  Often the weissman deck ends up with most of its card advantage going to the table.  Sometimes Bob resolves early and you have to twister or balance away the card advantage.  Sometimes your opponent runs good and tops decks threat after threat and leaves your hand bear but with a huge table advantage.  Im not playing twister when i'm up a bunch of cards and have plenty of spell power.  I don't play cards just because I can.  I play them because its the right play.

[Delha]

Just so you know, there's a "quote" button right on each post. Using that makes it much easier to tell where the other person's post ends and your response begins. If you're dead set on avoiding that for some reason, I'd like to suggest setting the quoted people's text in bold instead.

[Troy_Costisick]

DONT PLAY TIMETWISTER, EVER.

Soly, isn't Timetwister decent against Dredge?  You reset their graveyard and make the waste a turn activating Bazaar with no dredgers in place.  Against combo, it's thought to be bad, but if you wipe their GY to zero, who knows what they could draw?  By denying them a graveyard, you're effectively denying them extra cards in hand.  This is all game 1, of course.  Games 2 and 3 you'll just sub in sensible GY hate.

[nineisnoone]

DONT PLAY TIMETWISTER, EVER.

Soly, isn't Timetwister decent against Dredge?  You reset their graveyard and make the waste a turn activating Bazaar with no dredgers in place.  Against combo, it's thought to be bad, but if you wipe their GY to zero, who knows what they could draw?  By denying them a graveyard, you're effectively denying them extra cards in hand.  This is all game 1, of course.  Games 2 and 3 you'll just sub in sensible GY hate.

I don't think he's saying it's never the correct play, I think he's saying it's a waste of a slot.  The problem with it in the Deck is that you are (as is my understanding, I don't like it much myself) a control-hate deck.  So a reset is the last thing you would want to do.  And if you are just trying to remove their Graveyard there are better cards for that.

[Troy_Costisick]

So a reset is the last thing you would want to do.

What if you're behind?  Would you want to reset then?

And if you are just trying to remove their Graveyard there are better cards for that.

Like I said.  Game 1 only.  GY hate is for games 2 and 3.  The Deck is not going to mess with something so narrow in the main.

[DuKeLiO]

The lists I've seen lately in this thread are so far and beyond AWAY from what The Deck is designed to do.  I vomit in my mouth seeing these.    I will elaborate more if I remember, after my lunch, but basically:

DONT PLAY TIMETWISTER, EVER.

Don't play Key-vault.

Don't cut Leyline-Helm from the main.

Don't run a robot other than Inkwell right now.

Don't run two robots.  You're not slaver.

I don't think Leyline + Helm are a must. In a meta with little Ichorid and with MUD like the MWS variant of choice is not a good plan. And here, in Europe, this kind of metagame is pretty common.
Inkwell don't add nothing to the strategy. It has no sinergy with the deck at all. Titan is very good with the Gorilla Shaman+Ancient Grudge mana denial plan. It's Pretty good against combo and control. And Sphinx is very good keeping you alive. It will win every race against any other robot. Nevertheless Inkwell don't add nothing for your strategy. It only serves to go for and easy tinker, and against a lot of decks his shroud and islandwalk don't matter.
I like to run both beacuse I can go for the best in each situation. And with 28 mana sources and Mana Drain it is common to play them paying the mana. Sure, it is not the best plan, but it is common and acceptable.

@limitedwhole
Also your sideboard don't seems optimal. You don't run enough graveyard hate, and run very bad Vintage cards like Morphling and redundant cards like disenchant, beacuse very little times you will go for it instead of Ancient Grudge or Ray of Revelation. Also run too many creature removal in a deck who plays 2 Stp, Balance and Platinum Angel maindeck. You have to dedicate as less slots as posible for two cunning wish. At least I will run 3 graveyard hate, playing at least one Ravenous Trap. I don't think you need Diabolic Edict. The only shroud creature you can see con Vintage is Inkwell and you can play a Hurkyl's Recall, that doubles like a good sideboard card against MWS.dec. Morphling is totally awful, and there are too many better solutions against high-count removal decks (usually fish).

[limitedwhole]

You are probably right about me needing a ravenous trap in my sideboard to go with the honor the fallen.  Trap is much more easily fetched in desperation game one if I don't have wasteland.  I sideboard out tinker, trinisphere, platinum angel allot.  Thats why Morphling is in there.  Not saying my decks, just that this is what I am testing.  I think it is true to the decks mentality.  What I find lacking in most designed I see is just a lack of answers.

Timetwister is a very powerful card.  If you know how to play it you will understand.  Does is sometimes get pigeon holed next to my force of will? yes.  Not having the option seems aweful to me.  The reason Timetwister was cut from The Deck originally was that Weissman was playing again a field of decks in which every deck was a combo deck or ran 4 gorilla shaman and 4 wastelands.  Thats why it got cut in the first place.  Its a powerful card in a weissman deck.  Time twister favors the player with the most mana.

[nineisnoone]

So a reset is the last thing you would want to do.

What if you're behind?  Would you want to reset then?

And if you are just trying to remove their Graveyard there are better cards for that.

Like I said.  Game 1 only.  GY hate is for games 2 and 3.  The Deck is not going to mess with something so narrow in the main.

I understand your first point, but that's still not something you "want to do."  Sure, it's better than nothing, but it's still not optimal.  Almost anything looks good when you are already behind.  If this was a legitimate reason to run Timetwister, it would be seen in every deck that runs blue, but it's not.

My point is less "run Tormord's Crypt" and more "Timetwister is a glorified Tormod's Crypt."  If all it does is kinda reset the game (you're down 3 mana), and shuffle the graveyard that sounds pretty narrow.  

[M.Solymossy]

You are incorrect about timetwister.  Just plain wrong.

You're playing a control deck.  timetwister is counter-productive to fucking everything ever that your deck is trying to accomplish.

I know if you wasted two of my lands and had countered 3 of my best spells, i'd have a fucking orgasm if you gave me seven new cards to beat you with.


So no sir, YOU are just plain fuckin' wrong.   

[limitedwhole]

There is another deck I am playing against.  My guess is that you people have never even played timetwister.  You haven't played the 94 list, you haven'tt played the 95' list, you haven't played the 98 list, you haven't played the 2000 list, you haven't played the 2002 list, and you haven't played the 2004 list and you haven't played the 2006 list.  There is a reason to play timetwister and a reason to not play a timetwister.  If you don't know anything about a weissman deck, please go argue about how many jaces to put in a tez.

[M.Solymossy]

I'm going to Elaborate more.

You can't be quoting a Weissman deck from 1996.  That's 14 years ago.

Second.  Timetwister is NEVER taking away advantage.  80% of the decks in this format play WAY more busted cards than you do, so giving them a fresh 7 just resets everyting you're trying to do.  

Twister when you're up is STILL the wrong play.   Absolutely wrong.  1000%.     Saying twister is the right play in "the deck" is like saying you won a boxing match by hitting your opponent with a stuffed hippopotamous.  It's just not fucking possible.

It's the difference between winning tournaments and just being some random poster on TMD.

Im not playing twister when i'm up a bunch of cards and have plenty of spell power.  I don't play cards just because I can.  I play them because its the right play.

^  Seriously?   This statement is true in the same way that King Kong fighting Godzilla in the sea of japan is true.  

(AKA It's just plain fiction).

[M.Solymossy]

There is another deck I am playing against.  My guess is that you people have never even played timetwister.  You haven't played the 94 list, you haven'tt played the 95' list, you haven't played the 98 list, you haven't played the 2000 list, you haven't played the 2002 list, and you haven't played the 2004 list and you haven't played the 2006 list.  There is a reason to play timetwister and a reason to not play a timetwister.  If you don't know anything about a weissman deck, please go argue about how many jaces to put in a tez.

And all your reasons are wrong.  Have you played vintage in the current format, or are you just some random poster who has zero real tournament wins under his belt but likes to argue for the sake of argument like other trolls on these boards?  This is not a flame, but a legitimate question.

I had an opponent timetwister me when he was playing Marske's tezz deck.   Unfortunately for him, it gave him 2 Fows and a Mana Drain, but it gave me Recall, DT, Key, and Tinker.     

Twister belongs in Combo decks.  NOT control decks.

[limitedwhole]

Dogma, vanity, and insults... maybe you should start a religion.

[M.Solymossy]

Dogma, vanity, and insults... maybe you should start a religion.

Actually, that was as I stated a Legitimate post, considering you've got 40ish posts and are already on restricted posting.  That, and you're giving no really valuable information other than "this card is right... derrr".


I'md one with this post.  I just hope at some point we get paired in a tournament, and you cast twister against me with a control deck.

[limitedwhole]

I posted copious reasoning.  you have posted allot of stuff about how you are a badass and how you are going to vomit.

He plays twister.  You drew tinker, key, Ancestral, and DT.  I am assuming he has 7 mana and a gorilla shaman on the table and you have what like 2 basic islands?

[nineisnoone]

You can't be quoting a Weissman deck from 1996.  That's 14 years ago.

Truth.  You might as well talk about running Sui-Black with Carnophage and Sinkhole.

[Delha]

You can't be quoting a Weissman deck from 1996.  That's 14 years ago.

Truth.  You might as well talk about running Sui-Black with Carnophage and Sinkhole.

Thanks for making me feel old. Jerk.

I think my suiblack still has those cards in it. I suppose that's a good thing, since it means that it's been sitting untouched for a looooong time now.

On topic, agreed w/ you and Soly. Ancient lists are so out of context that card choices from back then are pretty much always invalidated by the change in meta.

[limitedwhole]

If anyone has a legimate answer to my post about gifts ungiven and skeletal scrying please reply.  I am not taking part in this flame war anymore.

[M.Solymossy]

If anyone has a legimate answer to my post about gifts ungiven and skeletal scrying please reply.  I am not taking part in this flame war anymore.

It's not a flame war, it's an attempt to show you how ridiculously awful Timetwister is in The Deck.  Everyone is playing powerful cards right now.  This isn't the Prehistoric Age, where the only real thing black lotus did was cast your Shivan Dragons earlier than theirs.   Timetwister is the worst possible card EVER right now, because every deck sans fish is just a combo deck.   Randomly giving your oponent the nuts = really extremely loose play.

[TheShop]

If you run white-just cast balance as your bomb if you get behind...twister sucks for the same reason why arcane denial if a terrible card...why counter/blow up 3 of their cards and then hand them 7...the math makes no sense.   And, if you are behind-you need cards that bring you up(only you) or (more likely) cards that only bring them down to a managable level.

[OmniStrife_101]

For Timetwister, I used to believe this was a veru underrated card, which it still is.  But its power declines much in "the deck".  For me, even in the most advantageous turn Timetwister is cast, I almost always mostly fear what my opponent drew than what I did.  It resets the game which "the deck" does not like since it is like going back to the stage of the game wherein "the deck" is at its weakest. 

For Skeletal Scrying, when playing "the deck", every point of life counts.  I sometimes lost because of a difference of 1 life point but was on the verge of winning.  Life points is more important in the deck than in any deck archetypes I know. 

Gifts Ungiven, in the deck is used to gain advantage which would eventually win you the game.  In a sense it also helps filter your deck out.  I might not be always cast gifts ungiven then win, but more of cast gifts ungiven, (big advantage, advantage, advantage, then win). 

I am pondering on different cards to include in "the deck", your critiscisms are welcome!

1 Intuition - As replacement for Fact or Fiction, can get my main deck Darklblast, Stripmine, Wastelands and Ancient Grudges.

Here is my current list:

4   Wasteland
2   Volcanic Island
2   Underground Sea
2   Tropical Island
1   Strip Mine
1   Scalding Tarn
1   Polluted Delta
1   Misty Rainforest
1   Island
1   Flooded Strand
3   City of Brass
1   Black Lotus
1   Mox Sapphire
1   Mox Jet
1   Mox Ruby
1   Mox Emerald
1   Mox Pearl
1   Sol Ring
1   Mana Crypt
   
4   Force of Will
3   Mana Drain
3   Spell Pierce
   
1   Voltaic Key
1   Time Vault
1   Sphinx of the Steel Wind
1   Tinker
1   Jace the Mindsculptor
   
2   Ancient Grudge
1   Sower of Temptation
1   Trygon Predator
1   Gorilla Shaman
1   Crucible of Worlds
1   Pernicious Deed
1   Lightning Bolt
1   Darkblast
   
1   Gifts Ungiven
1   Mystical Tutor
1   Vampiric Tutor
1   Yawgmoth’s Will
1   Ancestral Recall
1   Demonic Tutor
1   Fact or Fiction
1   Brainstorm
1   Cunning Wish

SIDEBOARD
4   Leyline of The Void
1   Ravenous Trap
3   Nature's Claim
1   Pyroblast
2   Red Elemental Blast
1   Volcanic Fallout
1   Hurkyll's Recall
2   Sower of Temptation

I am pondering on the following slots:

1 Voltaic Key
1 Time Vault
1 Lightning Bolt
1 Fact or Fiction - I am thinking if Intuition can make the cut?

Any ideas?  My meta game is Aggro MUD, MUD, Ichorid, Fish (U/W, Noble) then Oath.

[Troy_Costisick]

For Skeletal Scrying, when playing "the deck", every point of life counts.  I sometimes lost because of a difference of 1 life point but was on the verge of winning.  Life points is more important in the deck than in any deck archetypes I know.

Eh, no.  That doesn't really follow The Deck's philosophy.  For The Deck, there's only one life point that counts- the last one.

1 Intuition - As replacement for Fact or Fiction, can get my main deck Darklblast, Stripmine, Wastelands and Ancient Grudges.

The problem with Intuition is that it works best in one of two situations: 1) you're playing lots of 3 ofs or 4ofs.  2) you're playing lots of flashback cards.  The Deck doesn't really do either of those things.

1 Voltaic Key
1 Time Vault
1 Lightning Bolt
1 Fact or Fiction

Take Key and Vault out altogether.  The Deck does not play combo.  It plays cards that are strong on their own.  Key and Vault individually do nothing.  I don't have any suggestions at the moment for replacements.  Someone else probably will.

Peace,

-Troy

[DuKeLiO]

This deck has the "wrong answer" problem. So you have to minimize this effect by playing the most versatile cards posible and this is not the case of Vault-Key combo. The two cards are really bad on themselves.

Also, for your meta I prefer Lightning Bolt over the Darkblast. Rarely whe have to get ride of two Dark Confidants, and in your meta there ar not too many. Against Noble the Lightning Bolt has more or less the same utility, it is not recursive, but it can kill Trygon Predator, Quasaly and early Goyfs. It is way better against MUD, killing Metalworker and Lodestone Golem.

I like Fact or Fiction a lot. It is the best draw engine for a pure control deck on Vintage. I do not cut it never. I think it is stronger than Gifts Ungiven, but I also like Gifts Ungiven, and you need some cards to have advantage. I tested Intuition, in a more Intuition-based build, with Loam and I don't like it too much, but if you want to try, add Flame Jab instead of Darkblast, Loam instead of Crucible of Worlds and two Intuitions for Vault Key.
An the last, you must add Regrowth to your list. It is awesome with any tutor, Fact or Fiction, Gifts Ungiven and Intuition/Loam, if you add it.

For Skeletal Scrying, when playing "the deck", every point of life counts.  I sometimes lost because of a difference of 1 life point but was on the verge of winning.  Life points is more important in the deck than in any deck archetypes I know.

Eh, no.  That doesn't really follow The Deck's philosophy.  For The Deck, there's only one life point that counts- the last one.

This is not The Deck philosophy. The Deck Philosophy is that life is a resource that you can spend. Every life point counts, beacuse you will be to play Fows and tap citys in the future, so, you can spend life points, but you have to be careful with that.

[OmniStrife_101]

For Skeletal Scrying, when playing "the deck", every point of life counts.  I sometimes lost because of a difference of 1 life point but was on the verge of winning.  Life points is more important in the deck than in any deck archetypes I know.

Eh, no.  That doesn't really follow The Deck's philosophy.  For The Deck, there's only one life point that counts- the last one.

1 Intuition - As replacement for Fact or Fiction, can get my main deck Darklblast, Stripmine, Wastelands and Ancient Grudges.

The problem with Intuition is that it works best in one of two situations: 1) you're playing lots of 3 ofs or 4ofs.  2) you're playing lots of flashback cards.  The Deck doesn't really do either of those things.

1 Voltaic Key
1 Time Vault
1 Lightning Bolt
1 Fact or Fiction

Take Key and Vault out altogether.  The Deck does not play combo.  It plays cards that are strong on their own.  Key and Vault individually do nothing.  I don't have any suggestions at the moment for replacements.  Someone else probably will.

Peace,

-Troy

Frist, well, if you are counting on that last life point, then every life point counts, yes?  Since every life point is a quasi clock that let's you delay turns before you get to your last one.  I really don't see why you disagreed with me here.

Second, for arguement's sake, my build runs
1 Darkblast
2 Ancient Grudge
4 Force of Will
3 Pierce
3 Mana Drains
4 Wasteland

If I am actually going to run Intuition, I would probably cut some cards to make room for:
Life from the Loam
Compulsive Research
Flame Jab?? > just a cards I wanted to test out.

I am looking to see if others have thought of combining "the deck" and Chapuzas Solution (like a hybrid)

Third, I am actually on the edge of removing them (Time Vault and Voltaic Key) from the deck, but I am still thinking of what cards can replace the two slots.  Am I missing a lot by cutting Ponder and Thirst of Knowledge/ Complusive Research?

Peace also!

[TheShop]

Every point absolutely does NOT count.  You can let them hit you for 19 and then drop a boArd clearing effect to kill all creatures...giving you ultimate card advantage.  You are allowing the 19 dmg to stabalize the game and do not care if you stabalize at 1 life or 20.  You don't defend every point as if it is you last because this forces opponent to waste resources along the way until you can sculpt a hand/board position that  wins the game through control.

The deck sees life for what it is: a resource that the player may spend to buy cards or time or a superior board.  You would trade cards for life(counter/removal), why is it so different for you to trade life for cards????  You want the highest ending NET position.  If skeletal scrying scuplts the hand that wins the game even by paying 19 life it will have been worth it.

Another issue:  most of your cards inherently lead to cards advantage by playing them.  Since the deck builds advantage by having answers, it makes perfect sense to trade 1 life for a card that will save you 2+ life when played.  In the NET position, you have gained a card or tempo advantage that is quantifiable by drawing...even at the cost of a few life.  This is a maximum utlization of an otherwise unused resource.  Not paying life is similar to not tapping lands...you are wasting resources.

[nineisnoone]

First, well, if you are counting on that last life point, then every life point counts, yes?  Since every life point is a quasi clock that let's you delay turns before you get to your last one.  I really don't see why you disagreed with me here.

This would be true if we were in Standard, but many (most) combos don't really care what your life is.  Sure, sometimes they can just ride a Dark Confidant if you go low enough but taking your own once life isn't a "quasi clock."  It just alters the timing of their clock. 

I mean, there is no reason to hold your life points sacred.  The rule is do anything you can to win that won't cause you to lose.  If Scrying for 3 would cause you to die (immediately or otherwise) then, don't do it.  If it won't (to the best of your estimation), then why not do it?  There is no reason preclude yourself from playing the card just because it can cause you to lose the game if you play it wrong.  That's every card.

That said, I don't think it's that great because it sucks early on (i.e. Scry for less than 3) and is inconsistent due to there being no guarantee of a workable Graveyard. 

Really, if you want more draw I don't see why you'd look past running more Jace. 

[limitedwhole]

Omni,
While you are right to value your life total, this is a shield and the weissman schoool would like to milk it for all its worth, skeletal scrying is a fundamental play in control mirrors and is the best draw x spell mana wise.  The fact that it is variable and can be played early for small draw really makes it excellent.

End of turn skeletal Scrying for 3.  Opponent can not use red blast and must mana drain.  You REB.  He Forces.
Untap.  Yawgmoth's Will.  Opponent looks at dead REB in hand.  

Basically End of turn Skeletal scrying is a fundamental way to negate your opponents REB effects in order to set up YAwgmoth's Will or Mindtwist.  He has to make tough decisions on whether to force it and risk getting blown out or let you draw the cards.

[M.Solymossy]

End of turn skeletal Scrying for 3.  Opponent can not use red blast and must mana drain.  You REB.  He Forces.
Untap.  Yawgmoth's Will.  Opponent looks at dead REB in hand.  

Basically End of turn Skeletal scrying is a fundamental way to negate your opponents REB effects in order to set up YAwgmoth's Will or Mindtwist.  He has to make tough decisions on whether to force it and risk getting blown out or let you draw the cards.

This logic is both entirely flawed and assumes you're still running other suboptimal cards in your deck.