[Free Article] Fishing in NY

[voltron00x]

After discussing Noble Fish a few weeks ago, I took the deck to the NYSE V tournament in NY on 1/23.  I ended up in 4th out of 48 players.  The article contains a tournament report, an updated deck post-tournament, some thoughts on the impact of Thada on the archetype, and more Ryan Glackin name-checks than any one article should ever contain.

http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/vintage/18739_The_Long_Winding_Road_Fishing_in_NY.html

[FlyFlySideOfFry]

After discussing Noble Fish a few weeks ago, I took the deck to the NYSE V tournament in NY on 1/23.  I ended up in 4th out of 48 players.  The article contains a tournament report, an updated deck post-tournament, some thoughts on the impact of Thada on the archetype, and more Ryan Glackin name-checks than any one article should ever contain.

http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/vintage/18739_The_Long_Winding_Road_Fishing_in_NY.html

Excellent article and I always enjoy reading quality Vintage articles. Congrats on the finish.

I'd like to comment on what you said about Thada, in that you talked about the inclusion in Noble Fish. I would like to say that I agree with you that Thada is not the kind of card that can arbitrarily slapped into every fish deck. A deck like Noble Fish is more designed for incrimental battles and Tarmogoyf does a much better job as a finisher in those proposed decklists partly because as you mentioned, you run Null Rod. In addition to that you're very heavy on creatures so often goyf will win in 2-3 swings anyways. I especially liked:

Matt: 20

Brad: 20, 19, 18, 10, 2

I think there is a way to abuse Thada though, but it will require a Fish list with a different focus. That said Noble Fish is definitely a strong contender and it is nice to see more people using it with success.

[Yare]

I decided to be “that guy” today and included a few Spirit Tokens in my deck box, and pulled them out almost every round to see if it would have any effect on my day.

Clevar. Also, it does make you "that guy." I was also surprised to see that this got you the point in the last round that you needed.

Thanks for writing the report. A good read, as always.

[MirariKnight]

I think there is a way to abuse Thada though, but it will require a Fish list with a different focus. That said Noble Fish is definitely a strong contender and it is nice to see more people using it with success.

I think this hits at what a lot of people tend to miss when evaluating new cards. We shouldn't just look at cards as they fit into existing archetypes, although that is obviously useful. What's equally important (and often overlooked) is how decks can alter or even be invented to accommodate the new cards. A lot of the issues that you gave in the article about Thada are because she doesn't just slip into the deck you played at the tournament. Maybe we have to reevaluate some card choices in Noble Fish (Null Rod especially) and try to come to a different build that is designed to incorporate Thada, because her effect is super powerful. Of course, this could wind up just being worse than Noble Fish is now, but I think it's wrong to dismiss Thada simply because she doesn't quite work in the pre-existing deck. Look at how we've developed around Lodestone Golem as an example of how this should be done. Everyone instantly knew that Lodestone doesn't really work in the existing Stax lists (B/R, 5c, to a lesser extent Mono-R), and as a result we've seen a bunch of different types of lists shoot up that have never been seen before. Mono-R Rod lists, MUD lists w/ or w/o Metalworker, Shop Aggro that didn't just switch Juggernaut for Lodestone and call it a day. Obviously some of these developments will be better than others, but I think that is the proper way to approach new cards with the possible format-defining power level of Lodestone, Thada Adel, Iona, etc.

Aside from that, it's good to see that you're willing to stand behind the decks you advocate in your articles. Congratulations of the high finish. I'm consistently amazed that so few (almost no one...) plays Fish in New York/Philly. I cannot imagine a Fish deck not having good matchups against a large portion of the field simply because no one is prepared for it.

Serum Powder/Leyline is a really interesting Dredge sideboard. It seems as though the drawback of Serum Powder (drawing it after the game starts) is semi-mitigated by the mechanics of this particular matchup. The starting hand is infinitely more important than the card that you wind up drawing, so having a much better chance at Leyline seems good. My only concern, which you seemed to address, is how utterly useless that strategy is against non-Dredge decks. At least with the more varied yard hate package, you can bring in some cards against other decks (ex. I love Extirpate vs. Drains, Jailer can come in if you need a guy like in the match against G/W, etc.).

[voltron00x]

You could be right on the money regarding Thada.  I’ll give you an example:  Bloodghast.  When evaluating the card, I looked at it in current Dredge builds and figured it wasn’t better than Ichorid, which is more or less correct for older-style Dredge decks, and I figured that Clamp with Bloodghast as a draw engine was too slow (which, thus far, is accurate).  However, I didn’t really consider whether the deck could be redesigned from the top down to incorporate Bloodghast, or that the use of Bloodghast in combination with Ichorid could help combat hate cards like Relic and Tormod’s Crypt by forcing the opponent to use them earlier, with less loss on the side of the Dredge player.

Having said that, it’s hard for me to imagine a Fish deck without Null Rod having much success at the moment.  If Thada was not Legendary, it might be a different story (having multiples connecting would be nuts as you could pull fast mana with the first and use that mana to play whatever artifacts you pulled next).  I mean, you could replicate that effect using something nutty like Rafiq, but I don’t know if that’s Vintage viable, and at that point, why not use Rafiq with Selkie?  I imagine drawing an extra 4 or 6 cards a turn would lock up the game pretty fast.

I could easily see Thada taking the place of Magus in some Tezz lists as the effect is quite powerful in the Tezz mirror.  It’s also possible that Thada becomes a card that doesn’t catch on at first but later developments, errata, or new printings break the card.  Or, maybe the card is really the bees knees in existing Fish decks and just replaces one of the existing cards, like Trygon or Mindcensor in my list.  Time will tell… but I definitely would grab foils now if you’re into that kind of thing.

Of course, it could totally be a bust.  The Noble Fish vs Tezz match-up isn’t all that bad now, provided that you are expecting significant amounts of Tezz and build the deck with beating Tezzeret in mind.

For my money, the breakout cards of the set for Vintage are Lodestone Golem and Nature's Claim.

[DubDub]

Just want to say that this was a fun read, thanks Matt.

[Gandalf_The_White_1]

I enjoyed reading the report, but I don't think that Bant Charm is a good addition to the deck.  Despite the card's versatility, UBG is simply too much of an investment for the effect it provides.  Paying 3 mana to counter an instant spell or get rid of a creature doesn't seem very good.

[voltron00x]

I only play 2 b/c of the mana investment.

Nevertheless, you feel pretty good when you counter a bounce spell on Null Rod, or destroy Time Vault, or get rid of Confidant, or Welder, or a lock piece, or counter Gifts Ungiven, or counter Fire/Ice, or get rid of Goyf in the mirror, or get rid of a maindeck Sower, and on and on and on.

[MirariKnight]

Bant Charm seems really good imo. The mana cost shouldn't be too much of an issue because of Noble, etc.
All 3 effects are super relevant in the format and interact well with almost every deck you can expect to face.

[Razvan]

A lot of people say that tournament reports should get rid of the "useless" pre-tournament and post-tournament crap that's irrelevant to the actual magic.

I don't really know who Ryan Glackin is, but your representation of him is a one-man argument as to why it's SO important to have that stuff.

Excellent article and very fun to read. I SUPPOSE grats on top 4 as well .

[Yare]

A lot of people say that tournament reports should get rid of the "useless" pre-tournament and post-tournament crap that's irrelevant to the actual magic.

I'm not sure where these people are, because the extracurricular stuff is usually the best part of the entire report. Besides, people can just skip over the extra stuff they don't want to read.

[Razvan]

A lot of people say that tournament reports should get rid of the "useless" pre-tournament and post-tournament crap that's irrelevant to the actual magic.

I'm not sure where these people are, because the extracurricular stuff is usually the best part of the entire report. Besides, people can just skip over the extra stuff they don't want to read.

Actually, quite a few people protested, even prefaced their articles with such a claim. I cannot think of a good way to search for them, but trust me. It's a minor point anyway, the article was excellent, and I absolutely love the extra stuff .

Also, I re-read it to catch some stuff I missed and I must echo people's feeling on Bant Charm. It's never a bad card to have, each effect is very strong, but it is quite reliant on having the Noble Hierarch in play, because using 3 (basic|dual) lands to cast the card is slightly awkward. If anything, I would use a normal bounce spell instead (maybe sideboarded), because in my opinion that's the strongest part of the card in this deck.

That having been said, I am certain I will test it and like it... lousy way the world works.

[Bongo]

As always, nicely written article!

Matt, what are your thoughts about Selkie? You never really elaborated on why you don't play it.
In my experience, the little Merfolk nicely fills the card-advantage void. Without Selkie, you're really dependant on your opening hand. Drawing extra cards has often been the deciding factor in quite a few games. It's also another blue card for Force, which can't be underestimated.

[voltron00x]

I honestly just haven't had much opportunity to test Selkie.  I knew the list I based the deck on was pretty strong as Mykie went 6-0-2 and won with it last fall.  I have nothing against Selkie in theory... I just wanted access maindeck to Trygon (for Shops / Oath) and Mindcensor (for Tezz) b/c that's what I expected to be facing in the top 8, if I made it that far.

Selkie's unreal popularity in places where Fish decks are popular has to be for a reason so I'm sure its a good card, although I wonder if some of that is related to the mirror.

I'm probably playing the deck again in the near future so I'll be testing Selkie / Thada / Trygon / Clique / Mindcensor and hopefully can find some mix that works.  That slot is just so crowded with strong cards now...

[Rico Suave]

In addition to that you're very heavy on creatures so often goyf will win in 2-3 swings anyways. I especially liked:

Matt: 20

Brad: 20, 19, 18, 10, 2

I didn't like that.

The deck does swing pretty hard, that is true.  

EDIT - I also played your round 6 opponent in round 1, and beat him with Oath.  I think my hands in game 2 and 3 both consisted of turn 1 Oaths, it was pretty savage and I'd like to take credit for helping you.

[pierce]

I alluded that I had roughly 7 questions about your list if you didn't write an article. Seeing as you did, I have just a few:

1) the lack of STP in the main is disturbing. I've played Fish style decks off and on since 06, and nearly every times there were plains in the deck I ran STP (with a brief stint into the world of PTE to test the shuffle relevancy). Considering that you sided in the swords nearly every match, how in good conscience can you omit them after the end of the event? Adding removal in the form of bant charm seems weak compared to the power of Swords. Yes, I understand the flexibility of Bant Charm--but 1 Swords, 1 Bant Charm, Mystical tutor would be more flexible still. I simply cannot understand this glaring omission.

2) stifle falls in and out of favor in fish lists. how was it on the day, and how relevant is it in the current metagame? on average, do you feel more compelled to side it out vs better than average players, as it is easier to play around games 2 and 3?

3) since I greatly prefer poker to MTG, i'm always impressed with semi-bluffs and bluffs in MTG. Your token move is of the highest class in this regard. Do you think you could have pulled this off without the personal image you've worked for with Oath over the past few months? Would you have even bothered if you hadn't been cleaning up with Oath recently?

[voltron00x]

I alluded that I had roughly 7 questions about your list if you didn't write an article. Seeing as you did, I have just a few:

1) the lack of STP in the main is disturbing. I've played Fish style decks off and on since 06, and nearly every times there were plains in the deck I ran STP (with a brief stint into the world of PTE to test the shuffle relevancy). Considering that you sided in the swords nearly every match, how in good conscience can you omit them after the end of the event? Adding removal in the form of bant charm seems weak compared to the power of Swords. Yes, I understand the flexibility of Bant Charm--but 1 Swords, 1 Bant Charm, Mystical tutor would be more flexible still. I simply cannot understand this glaring omission.

2) stifle falls in and out of favor in fish lists. how was it on the day, and how relevant is it in the current metagame? on average, do you feel more compelled to side it out vs better than average players, as it is easier to play around games 2 and 3?

3) since I greatly prefer poker to MTG, i'm always impressed with semi-bluffs and bluffs in MTG. Your token move is of the highest class in this regard. Do you think you could have pulled this off without the personal image you've worked for with Oath over the past few months? Would you have even bothered if you hadn't been cleaning up with Oath recently?

1 – When I rebuild the deck post-Worldwake, there are a few cards that need to be considered, chiefly:  Thada, Nature’s Claim, and Swords to Plowshares.  In addition, depending on meta considerations, one might also consider:  Mystical Tutor, Rebuild / Hurkyl’s Recall, Brainstorm, Ponder (especially if Stifle doesn’t make the cut).  If the meta becomes loaded with Shop decks, Stifle gets worse, and Spell Pierce and Plow get better (especially given Lodestone Golem), and Nature’s Claim should be very good (especially if people play Oath decks geared to beat Shop decks).  That list I posted was what I would’ve played the next week.  You’re right in that Swords was very good in that specific tournament.  The fact that I brought it in, in the dark, is kind of telling.  Fitting them in the main does require looking at the quantity of blue cards to support Force of Will.

2 – Stifle was pretty good for me, and yes I do tend to side out some number of them for games 2/3 (especially if I used it successfully in game 1).  That said, it would be one of the first cards I would cut – this particular list is designed to attack the opponent’s mana pretty hard (Stifle, full set of Null Rod, Aven Mindcensor) though, so it does what you want it to do.  Its also a Time Walk against a resolved Oath of Druids and sometimes you get lucky and can blow out Tezzeret into Time Vault by Stifling the untap and then attacking into Tezz.

3 – I wouldn’t have bothered if everyone didn’t automatically put me on Oath of Druids.  For instance, using something like Zombie tokens probably wouldn’t have been as effective as the Dredge players tend to be identified very quickly.

[Stormanimagus]

2 – Stifle was pretty good for me, and yes I do tend to side out some number of them for games 2/3 (especially if I used it successfully in game 1).  That said, it would be one of the first cards I would cut – this particular list is designed to attack the opponent’s mana pretty hard (Stifle, full set of Null Rod, Aven Mindcensor) though, so it does what you want it to do.  Its also a Time Walk against a resolved Oath of Druids and sometimes you get lucky and can blow out Tezzeret into Time Vault by Stifling the untap and then attacking into Tezz.

Matt, I'd think long and hard before I'd ever cut Stifle from Fish. Stifle is a card that may lose value in certain match-ups, but it pretty relevant all the time Game 1. People often forget how important it can be in protecting YOUR manabase from Wasteland. That is one of its primary functions IMHO as Noble Fish doesn't function without its mana-base. So, in brief, this is how the card is used I think game 1. Against:

Shops/Fish: Defense against Wasteland and (secondarily) stops Welders and Fetches.
Oath: Stops Oath and buys you time
Tezz: Not particularly good in this match-up, but does stop Fetches and Vault/Key
Dredge: Time Walks you against Bazaar, and Stops Ichorid Triggers if need be
TPS: They must get it out of your hand or it stops Storm Triggers. Also stops Fetches

It does all this for U. Hence I think it still probably has a home in an aggressive deck like this.

-Storm

[voltron00x]

2 – Stifle was pretty good for me, and yes I do tend to side out some number of them for games 2/3 (especially if I used it successfully in game 1).  That said, it would be one of the first cards I would cut – this particular list is designed to attack the opponent’s mana pretty hard (Stifle, full set of Null Rod, Aven Mindcensor) though, so it does what you want it to do.  Its also a Time Walk against a resolved Oath of Druids and sometimes you get lucky and can blow out Tezzeret into Time Vault by Stifling the untap and then attacking into Tezz.

Matt, I'd think long and hard before I'd ever cut Stifle from Fish. Stifle is a card that may lose value in certain match-ups, but it pretty relevant all the time Game 1. People often forget how important it can be in protecting YOUR manabase from Wasteland. That is one of its primary functions IMHO as Noble Fish doesn't function without its mana-base. So, in brief, this is how the card is used I think game 1. Against:

Shops/Fish: Defense against Wasteland and (secondarily) stops Welders and Fetches.
Oath: Stops Oath and buys you time
Tezz: Not particularly good in this match-up, but does stop Fetches and Vault/Key
Dredge: Time Walks you against Bazaar, and Stops Ichorid Triggers if need be
TPS: They must get it out of your hand or it stops Storm Triggers. Also stops Fetches

It does all this for U. Hence I think it still probably has a home in an aggressive deck like this.

-Storm

I get what you’re saying… I’m just not sure I agree on how useful those points are in my metagame.

Shops:  Stifle is good against Wasteland only if they’re leading with it.  If they’re playing lock pieces first, it becomes dead very quickly b/c you need to tap out completely to play threats.

Fish:  No one plays Fish in my metagame.

Oath:  While this is true (and I noted it above) the deck has so many anti-Oath pieces that this is actually one of the worst.  I usually use it to attack their mana more than anything.

Tezz:  I think its quite good in this match-up as you can play out Null Rod, and if they fetch in response to play Drain, you blow them out by Stifling the fetch.   You can also take away a draw from Dark Confidant or counter a Time Vault / Tezz activation, or counter a Draw off Sensei’s Top to “counter” a Force of Will.  It has a lot of applications here.

Dredge:  In my article, I noted that Stifling Bazaar into Wasteland is about the only way you win game 1 (outside of them mulling to oblivion).  I wouldn’t hold onto the card just for that.  Dredge is always going to be very difficult g1.

TPS:  No one plays TPS in my metagame.

So basically, I need to beat Shops, Oath, and Tezz, and have sideboard game against Dredge, as well as the significant chunk of the field that is random.dec (which makes up far more of the field than TPS and Fish, oddly enough).  While Stifle is ok against all of these decks, I don’t think its absolutely necessary.  Fish decks, by their nature, have to be built around their metagame (as do all decks, but this is even more true for this style of deck).  If you can run something more relevant - which might be Swords to Plowshares in place of Stifle with Thada in place of Mindcensor, and additional Spell Pierce for Shops - for whatever the meta turns out to be post-Lodestone, I think you need to consider it.  All early indicators suggest we’re headed for Workshopville for a few months while people try to “break” Lodestone Golem.

No card should be considered an auto-include in this style of deck.

Although, cutting, say… Force of Will, Noble Hierarch, Qasali Pridemage, or Null Rod seems like it would be a bad idea.

[sorcutt]

I can't believe you won a wolf shirt.  That's freaking awesome.  It makes me want to buy power again.

[Smmenen]

Matt, I really liked your article.   I also really like your Fish list.  I wish you could have won that tournament!   You say that Predator was your least favorite card, but I would think, oddly enough, that Predator would have been better than Mindcensor for you.   Did you also consider, perhaps, a pair of Seals in your deck, perhaps over some of those other options?  Seal of Cleansing/Primordium seems like it could be a perfect two-of, even with Pridemage and Mindcensor.  In any case, I look forward to hearing tales of you smashing people with Thada over some of those other 3cc bears.  Also, one thing I really love about your report is how you beat Oath every time.   Which, as an Oath player, I hope you would , but I think that's inspiring for other Fish players, to know that they can beat oath. 

And, yeah, it's good to send the message that creatures can win in Vintage.   Now, you just need to get 1st place, and maybe even more people will get the message.  Keep up the good work. 

[voltron00x]

Thanks!  I have something like 6 Vintage tournaments in the next 8 weeks, so I'll be playing Fish again at least once.

Trygon Predator is kind of an unusual case... my team told me that they thought he was better on paper than in actual gameplay, which I kind of ignored, but in the tournament at least, they were mostly correct.  I wouldn't say the card is bad, I just don't recall it actually destroying a single Artifact or Enchantment on the entire day, which is less than impressive.  Given the number of relevant cards against Tezz (Null Rod, Pridemage, Stifle, Mindcensor, counters against Tinker and to protect Rod) and Oath (Null Rod, Pridemage, Meddling Mage, Stifle, counters against Oath), despite being good in theory, it just doesn't impact the game state like I thought it would...

I haven't tested either Seal; its an interesting idea, but I'm not sure what I'd cut to include it.  If the meta becomes focused on Oath / Tezz / Shops, though, the Seals are hugely relevant against everything this deck is trying to game-plan against.

Then again, I didn't play against Shops all day. Trygon could be much more relevant post-Worldwake.

Oddly, Thada is going to be in a weird spot if the meta becomes saturated with Shops, since that isn't really the matchup where you want the card.  The new breed of Lodestone Shop decks are going to make life very hard for Tezz... it was refreshing to see Tezz below 25% of the meta in NY.

[swawagon]

If you play Seals, make them Seal of Cleansing in the rare, but relevant case, that they also hit the Pro Green - Sphinx of the Steel Wind.

[PsychoCid]

I made it through ~20 games yesterday against various common archetypes and found the same results with Trygon.  He hit the field in more than half of these games and wasn't able to destroy a single card including a game where he was a turn 2 drop on the play with double counter backup.  He distracts removal from goyfs which is useful but not that impressive for being perched at the top of the mana curve.

That being said, the fact that he's the creature everyone is holding their solutions for might be a statement.  Selkie is my preferred 3 drop as he is typically able to swing after goyfs fall off the board and whispers "I win" into the opponents ear if it hits more than once with exalted fuel.

Regarding Mindcensor, I always want to attack mana when viable but this card felt iffy on hitting fetches -- sometimes the effect doesn't negate the search and 50% of the REMAINING time, I wasn't willing to lose tempo by avoiding a more proper play in order to hold mana back for his flash.

As quick as people can be to state that The Deck/Keeper is a metagame deck that should be tweaked for the expected field, this stands true to all decks that have any kind of flex space.  Given the variation of metas, I will continue to keep Trygon and Mindcensor in my pocket.  I'm still interested to see how Thada works out.

Just for record, I am prone to running less creatures and more parity control than the rest of my fishy colleagues based on my ability to 'race' cards with more explosive opponents (ie, I can only drop and swing with so many 2/3cc men so fast).  My theory is that if I can't keep tempo, I can't win.

[KingSquee]

A lot of people say that tournament reports should get rid of the "useless" pre-tournament and post-tournament crap that's irrelevant to the actual magic.

I don't really know who Ryan Glackin is, but your representation of him is a one-man argument as to why it's SO important to have that stuff.

This is your Glackin speaking...

Whenever I go to a big tournament with Elias, one that he'll write about on SCG, I make it my goal to do something, anything, that will earn a name drop or three. Call me an attention whore if you like, I'll accept. Actually, the first time he mentioned me in one of his articles I had no idea it was coming. It was his GenCon report. I politely requested he carry my Rook tin with his stuff so some overzealous TSA agent wouldn't call me on the "one carry-on, one personal item" rule. That would have forced me to check my tin full of M10 draft decks (and my unproxied Type 1 deck). Sorry, I'm just not comfortable with checking Magic cards, or anything else of value. Had I known that would have led to severe back pain, his eardrum filling with fluid, and his 401k to lose half its value, I might have taken a chance with the TSA. When I read the article I nearly fell out of my chair laughing.

Anyway I agree with your point completely. Tournament reports that are just "round one 2-0 vs. this.dec," "round two 2-1 vs. that-dec," "round three 0-2 vs. theotherthing.dec," are boring, and I'll usually click off them. Reports that discuss the pre- and post-tournament camaraderie, and sometimes even go completely off-topic to discuss football or something like that, are far better.

In fact, the main reason I attend big tournaments these days is for that pre- and post-tournament fun. My suck-ass retail work schedule precludes me from testing nearly as much as needed to be a serious contender at these events, so I try to enjoy myself as much as possible throughout the day.

[Hagrid]

I agree with glackin here there is nothing like a long day of slinging cards but the ride to and from is a great part of that fun.