[Free Article] Legacy Gold and Vintage Card Tricks

[voltron00x]

This week’s article is a split-format article, between Legacy and Vintage.

The Legacy portion reviews some of the Legacy cards that have dramatically increased in value, along with a look at the reason why.  This might be valuable to Vintage players as well due to the overlap between formats.  I was blown away by a few cards in particular; I had no idea the Show & Tells I bought for 0.50 each at last year’s GenCon were worth $50 for a play-set, or that Wasteland was approaching $20.

The Vintage portion includes a brief tournament report from Harrisburg on 1/31 as well as a look the version of Dark Times I’ve been testing.  You’d be wise to add the deck to your testing gauntlet, as it is deceptively powerful and knocked me out of two top 8s in the month of January.

http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/misc/18804_The_Long_Winding_Road_Legacy_Gold_and_Vintage_Card_Tricks.html

[jester3397]

Nice article.

Regarding the game 3 loss to Dark Times wasn't a big mistake, sure it cost you the game but it was just unlucky that he ripped Dark Depths when he did, you can't beat topdeck. If you hadn't milled and he topdecks Dark Depths the next turn you would lost the game otherwise.
Although as you've said you were still at 15 life and you already 1/2 of the combo in play both of you were actually waiting for the other half of the combo. Since there isn't a need to hurry you didn't really needed to lose the Helm and could've waited for the Leyline.
I know that enlightened tutor does still warrant a space in this deck but would entomb have any use in this deck or is it just a bad tutor? Its synergy with an active welder is quite nice.

Legacy staple cards and casual friendly cards like Show and Tell, Dream Halls and Entomb have really jacked up in prices even on this side of the ocean. Its getting more and more expensive to get into the eternal format nowadays and might continue for a couple of years with the popularity of Legacy and Vintage.

[mikekilljoy]

Very nice Matt. Now, what do you play this weekend??

[voltron00x]

To be honest, the fact that I can’t decide what to play has me really, really excited.

I have a really nice Lodestone Stax deck that I like that has a terrific match-up against Tezzeret.

I have an anti-Workshop Dredge list that takes full advantage of Nature’s Claim.  I haven’t played Dredge in 6 months and the deck is still 100% foiled, so I kind of have the zombie itch.

I updated my Fish deck from last month, and I really like that deck as well.  The Workshop and Tezzeret match-ups are pretty good.  Thada has been really nice in testing so far.  While most Noble Fish decks clobber Oath, its relatively easy to reconfigure the deck to combat Workshops.

Two Card Monte would be a blast to play again.

I also updated Oath of Druids to really key off on Workshop decks, with extra land, basic lands, 2 Grudges and all Haste creatures main.  I do love me some Oath.

I’m not sure why anyone would think that Vintage is in any way stale at the moment.  Fish got a new weapon, Workshops got a new weapon, Dredge got a new weapon, Tezz is as vulnerable as ever if you build your deck right… this is an awesome time to play Vintage.

[voltron00x]

I left Dark Times off the list... have to admit I'm tempted to play that deck also.

[evouga]

My best guess about Scroll Rack is that interest has been revitalized by Treasure Hunt, which is obviously nuts with an active Rack. Maybe we'll soon see the return of Parfait?

[MirariKnight]

Scroll Rack is up because Ben Bleiweiss thought it could potentially work with Treasure Hunt in Legacy, likely in Lands. Thus he has Starcity buying them for $15, meaning they sell them for $20+. I know the argument that Starcity sets prices is tired/not really true, but in this particular instance it is totally hype off that article and people believing it because of the rest of the sudden price spikes.

[mikekilljoy]

That was the answer I expected. See you on Saturday and hopefully I don't face you round 1 again. 

[CorwinB]

Great article, Matt, and especially nice to see the new deck working.

Regarding Legacy prices, Tabernacle is already more expensive than one part of power (TimeTwister). Nuts.

[tito del monte]

Great article - and it kind of tapped into to something that's been on my mind lately: I think a lot of Vintage players hope that the explosion of Legacy will have a knock on effect, and see some of those players make the leap to our format - but it seems, for example with some of the cards you mention going up in value, that in fact, if they fancy playing another format, they're playing EDH - with Vintage slipping through a crack between the two....

Could EDH kill vintage?

[voltron00x]

Actually I think EDH can be good for Vintage... I've seen a lot of Standard / Extended players get exposed to cards they otherwise would have never seen or played if not for EDH.  Even though its a casual format, a lot of people take it very seriously and acquire duals and things like Tolarian, Mana Crypt, Mana Vault, MisD, Force of Will, Sol Ring, and so on for EDH.  Once they get that stuff, its easier for them to get into proxy Vintage.

It still requires a purposeful recruitment of said EDH players on the part of the existing Vintage player base... ditto with Legacy players.

[MirariKnight]

I've seen a few people transition easily from EDH to Vintage because:
a) it makes them likely to have purchased cards that are Vintage playable, and also opens their mind to making purchases on the level of Duals, FoW, even Drain. Most people with decent EDH decks have a lot of staples for Vintage (fetches, tutors, Academy, Mana Crypt, Sol Ring, etc.)
b) Opens up the idea of a highlander format, which I've personally seen as one of the reasons people don't want to play Vintage.
c) In general gives people an idea of interactions, commonly played cards, etc. that they wouldn't normally ever see.
d) Forces players to scour the entire cardpool, which is an oft overlooked part of Vintage.

[BruiZar]

Legacy prices are going through the roof. I'm currently busy obtaining any old card that has potential to work in a combo. (Diamond valley, Candelabra, etc) because once a card goes up, it will never ever go down.

Imperial Recruiter, Loyal Retainer, Candelabra, Mox Diamond, Tarmogoyf, Scroll Rack, Dream Halls. Anything that is remotely viable and old will friggin jump in price. Stock on subpar old cards that you think are too bad for vintage while you still can, legacy players will play them because they are casual players. If they were hardcore they'd play vintage instead simply because we have the most potent decks in the game.

I stocked on Loyal Retainers at 5 euro a piece a year ago and acquired Dream Halls when conflux was printed. Same for time vault and goyf. This is a great time to make money on magic. I'm betting Sylvan Library and Concordant Crossroads will frigging jump in price too within a year or two tops. Burning Wish is another card that is seeing a whole lot of play in legacy that still has potential to rise in price

I am fairly confident of my speculations, as I've had grabbed nearly all of the cards you mentioned in your list on their lows. The only things I missed were Entomb (only have 1 cause i couldnt find more) and sadly some tabernacles (Traded mine at 160eu)
If you want to make money, bet on:

Diamond Valley
Candelabra of Tawnoss
Rishadan Port
Serra's Sanctum , Gaea's Cradle is unplayable and expensive, Tolarian Academy is expensive and banned/restricted, Serra's Sanctum is a playable card that is unrestricted
Sun Quan, Lord of Wu - This I'm not sure of, in the survival deck can give your whole army unblockable through retainers. If a list running Sun Quan wins, this will be unaffordable. Currently costs nothing so the risk is low.
Three Visits - If a scapeshift-like concoction ever makes it to legacy, this card will explode. It can fetch a dual and put it into play untapped. Currently costs nothing so the risk is low.
Eye of Ugin - This will go up. It's already pretty expensive.
Bassilisk Collar - Will go up
Kavu Predator - Will go up
Recurring Nightmare - Might go up
Sylvan Library - Will someday explode
Volrath's Stronghold - Will go up even more
Tithe - Will go up
Ancient Tomb - Will go up
Nethervoid - Will explode
Thawing Glaciers - Will go up

PS: Perimeter Captain is gonna be the new finks

Also, I don't believe glimpse is going anywhere. Elves are viable in every format right now. Even though its not the right meta game in vintage atm, it is still a deck that has enough raw power to win.

[MirariKnight]

Also add to that list Maze of Ith, I bet that card hits 20+ soon.

[2nd_lawl]

>Diamond Valley
Maybe

>Candelabra of Tawnoss
Maybe

>Rishadan Port
Yes

>Serra's Sanctum , Gaea's Cradle is unplayable and expensive, Tolarian Academy is expensive and banned/restricted, Serra's Sanctum is a playable card that is unrestricted
Not sure this has any upside, mabye if an enchantment block is down the pipe to make enchantress significantly better

>Sun Quan, Lord of Wu - This I'm not sure of, in the survival deck can give your whole army unblockable through retainers. If a list running Sun Quan wins, this will be unaffordable. Currently costs nothing so the risk is low.
I think there are better choices, there is always the temptation to full up survival decks with a million corner case dudes, it tends to make the decks worse not better

>Three Visits - If a scapeshift-like concoction ever makes it to legacy, this card will explode. It can fetch a dual and put it into play untapped. Currently costs nothing so the risk is low.
Unless the deck wants more than 4 copies of the card, it is a functional reprint of nature's lore, good for EDH though.

>Eye of Ugin - This will go up. It's already pretty expensive.
100% lives or dies on the power of the Eldrazi cards in Rise

>Bassilisk Collar - Will go up 
Agreed

>Kavu Predator - Will go up
Again Depends on something powerful that gives your opponents life getting reprinted, There already is a legacy deck with this guy, false cure, skyshroud cutter, reverent silence and berserk called "the cure"

>Recurring Nightmare - Might go up
I actually think this card is pretty slow and fragile

>Sylvan Library - Will someday explode
While its USE might explode, library has been reprinted alot, very few cards that were reprinted in 4th or 5th edition have significant value

>Volrath's Stronghold - Will go up even more
Good pick, its also one of the most powerful answers to painter/grindstone in legacy

>Tithe - Will go up
With Land Tax Likely to bee unrestricted this card seems unimpressive by comparison

>Ancient Tomb - Will go up
One of the more powerful unrestricted cards in legacy, agreed.

>Nethervoid - Will explode
I think this card is just too slow, unless there is a non-mana-accleleration way to cheat in into play

>Thawing Glaciers - Will go up
Far to slow in legacy without some kind of combo, (perhaps amulet of vigor)

[BruiZar]

Kavu predator is being played in legacy right now. Its good because if you have predator and another creature, swords to plowshares becomes pretty bad. Besides that there is ofcourse the cure deck. Its also very relevant in extended due to the amount of life gain cards. It trumps thopter combo but also gets pumped by finks helix grove baneslayer and natures claim. the ability to grow larger than goyf makes this card a very solid choice. This should cost more but it doesnt. It won't go up too high but it will go up.

I expect legends Sylvan Library to hit 20$ or 20 Euro. Maze of Ith is a good call too.

The difference with Diamond Valley Nether Void and Candelabra is that once they DO get played, they will never ever come down and will be unaffordable. Look at Moat and Tabernacle. I haven't scouted the other legendary creatures that could be playable yet. Dong Zhou is an other interesting p3k card to watch. Although it looks like crap and probably is atm, it could possibly work against stuff like dark depths.

Eye of Ugin: What we know is that Ghostfire mentions Eye of Ugin, so there are going to be eldrazi creatures and spells. The creatures will have colors in their CC like Ghostfire. Ghostfire with Ugin becomes a colorless lightning bolt. Although that isn't neccesarily broken, and while I expect the majority of Eldrazi cards to suck, I do believe that there will be some really nice colorless cards (Especially the artifact cards should be considered) for 5c-stax and other workshop decks. Vintage doesn't drive the price but the set will be very big so its unlikely that ALL the eldrazi cards will suck.

I expect Thawing Glaciers to go up if it finds a use with Amulet, because it becomes pretty strong with it.

I agree that recurring nightmare is a bit expensive, but its still a card that carries a lot of utility. Lion's Eye Diamond will be much more expensive within a year, on par with mox diamond but slightly lower.

[2nd_lawl]

Ghostfire with Ugin becomes a colorless lightning bolt

no, Ghostfire isnt an eldrazi spell.  Colorless Eldarzi Spells will need to be "tribal - Eldrazi" in order to get a cost reduction from eye.

[FlyFlySideOfFry]

Ghostfire with Ugin becomes a colorless lightning bolt

no, Ghostfire isnt an eldrazi spell.  Colorless Eldarzi Spells will need to be "tribal - Eldrazi" in order to get a cost reduction from eye.

I could be wrong but I don't think he literally was saying that Ghostfire was an Eldrazi spell, rather he was using it as an example because it is the only spell with colored mana in its mana cost that counts as "colorless" while it is on the stack unless you have a Mycosynth Lattice in play.

[BruiZar]

I am not sure if Ghostfire will work with Eye of Ugin or not, at least, not until official rulings come out. Though it is highly likely that eldrazi will be a tribe, it could also be something else of which no rulings are yet available. In anycase, its bound to shoot up, because limited players will want to have the card in their decks.

[BruiZar]

I think I know what's up with the magic economy. I think, besides from speculation, that the euro finally is the standard for magic prices. Europe has been importing eternal staples for years now and when I compare the prices of the eu webshops with the american ones, the EU webshops are often cheaper. The reason why US webshops are so close in price and sometimes more expensive is because you guys have to reimport them from Europe. This really makes sense because a lot of the spiked cards have no tournament results to back them up. Wasteland, Exploration and Force of Will in its current dollar price is exactly what we've been paying for them all those years!

[Gandalf_The_White_1]

Wasteland, Exploration and Force of Will in its current dollar price is exactly what we've been paying for them all those years!

Not true.  They have definitely gone up (look at 2 yr date range):
http://www.apathyhouse.com/pricelist/pricelist.php?card=wasteland#
http://www.apathyhouse.com/pricelist/pricelist.php?card=force+of+will#
http://www.apathyhouse.com/pricelist/pricelist.php?card=exploration#

[BruiZar]

THese are american values, but the european values were much higher for years. Wasteland has been 12 euro for atleast several years now. Exploration has been 12 euro for years as well and force of will was stuck on 25 euro. Right now, FoW is on 35 euro and exploration / wasteland jumped to 17 / 18 euro but that is only in response to the fact that the US prices have gone up.

[Doomsday]

So the US prices went up because the Euro prices were higher, which went up because the US prices moved up to match them?

[DerDaniel]

I think I know what's up with the magic economy. I think, besides from speculation, that the euro finally is the standard for magic prices. Europe has been importing eternal staples for years now and when I compare the prices of the eu webshops with the american ones, the EU webshops are often cheaper. The reason why US webshops are so close in price and sometimes more expensive is because you guys have to reimport them from Europe. This really makes sense because a lot of the spiked cards have no tournament results to back them up. Wasteland, Exploration and Force of Will in its current dollar price is exactly what we've been paying for them all those years!

So the US prices went up because the Euro prices were higher, which went up because the US prices moved up to match them?

Hi,
The low Euro/Dollar exchange rate we were experiencing over the last years led to an increase in import prices in the US. This is especially true for Magic cards, where Europe represents at least 1/3 of the world market. US buyers on average had to pay more for their, say Exploration, the more the Dollar decreased in value. It was a time, when everyone was importing cards from the US due to the favorable exchange rate. In that enviroment US sellers were price setting, because they were the cheapest and therefore the guys to buy from.
With the rcent downturn of the Euro that situation reversed. Buying €-nominated cards has become cheaper for the rest of the world. In a world of perfect competition US cards prices would now go down, because importing them has become cheaper and cutting prices would improve ones marketshare. Unfortunatly, that is not what happens. Anyone who has bought a Magic card is unlikely to sell it below purchasing-value. That's true for private sellers as well as for businesses. I call this the "stickyness" in Magic cards prices.
The new *rally* therefore starts at the price level set on the other side of the ocean. And the rising €-prices will in turn increase world-market prices, leading to an upward spiral of prices for Magic cards.
This is just a model, depending on the "stickyness" of cards prices. However i do believe that a declining Euro can lead to a rise in € prices for Magic cards.
Thx 4 reading, bit off-topic =)

[BruiZar]

I agree with Daniel. There is more at work then just increased popularity and playability of legacy cards. The economies are turbulent and that has its affect on magic cards as well.

[unicoerner]

I can`t see Basilisk Corollar becoming a strong card. It has to fight with Jittie and Jittie is just soo much better. Imo

[conboy31]

Watching the Olympics today I went through what must have been 100 opening hands with 2 card monte.  When I first made the deck last week I joked with a friend it would be amazing to QUAD serum powder mulligan and rip off a t1 win.  Well, it finally happened!

(the powder appears last as that is how I arrange them, face up/top, when I use them)
Gemstone, ancient tomb, welder, jet, servant, servant, powder ->
City of brass, ancient tomb, memory jar, helm, ancient tomb, workshop, powder ->
gemstone, servant, emerald, welder, city of brass, consultation, powder ->
Helm, servant, welder, leline, REB, petal, powder ->
...
Shop, leyline, sapphire, gemstone, mana vault, city of brass, helm!
Hand 1 had a nice welder and t2 servant but random combo pieces are not enough.  Hand 2 had huge resources and t2 jar but if that does not resolve trouble would ensue.  Hand 3 could be keepable against a known opponent and may lead to a quick painter combo with welder resilience.  Hand 4 had cramped resources.

I am fairly convinced that I want to add a copy of Wheel of Fortune to the deck.  Still working on what I should take out.