[report] Hey, who let in all these Elephants? A First Place Report.

[Cyberpunker]

I thought you quit?

I did, then they reprinted a better juggernaut

Word on the street is golems shit all over monkeys in cages.

??? What does this mean?

Btw. Terastadon definetly deserves a place over Hellkite Overlord. The ability to hit 3 permenants the opponent controls and have 18 damage spread out is far better than the immediate damage that is done by Hellkite.

[turn3ionawin]

You play 3 creatures and no Krosan Rec because having 3 plus tezz allows you to beat Sadistic Sacrament, even pre-board.  DSC is better than any other Tinker target because it kills in two swings, something none of the others do.  I played this deck and won MANY games with Tinker, games where all I had to do was drop a turn 2 or 3 Tinker with one or two counters backup, and my opponent scooped.  If your meta is heavy Welders and Tarmogoyfs, you may need Sphinx, but I would still prefer DSC; it's absolutely amazing.

DSC is really good also if you happen to draw him and go thirst for knowledge pitch DSC shuffle him draw 3 cards for free. Im testing a version of oath which is pretty stock except im running all four creatures. At first i tested with iona, elephant, and hellkite but more often then not i would mill a piece vault/key and sadly yagmoths and not have a tinker target. I really like having iona and elephant main board because it does directly effect the game as soon as it comes into play.

As far as the other deck getting to use oath if you blow up your own stuff its pretty much not important 99% of the time. If they have null rod out depending on what the board position is ive just hit the null rod a land and one of my own permanents with elephant which has been very effective.

[Cyberpunker]

I just won a 3 round tournament with the Elephant .

I am now a full 100% believer of the Elephant as opposed to the 10% reservation I had before

We finally have a good Elephant. Vintage hasn't had an Elephant presence since Call of the Herd was played in R/G Beatz. Though I will always remember bolting the Rogue Elephant when playing against Stompy   .

Wizards of the Coast:

Thank you for making Elephants scary again

[honestabe]

Vintage hasn't had an Elephant presence since Call of the Herd was played in R/G Beatz.

False

http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=25525

[Cyberpunker]

@ TheAtogLord:

Your original list contained Show and Tell on the S/B. What matches did you side these in against? How was it? Thanks.

[The Atog Lord]

Show and Tell is there for the Fish matchup. But I never drew it when it mattered. So, I don't think Show and Tell got a good chance to be evaluated, one way or the other.

[Cyberpunker]

Show and Tell is there for the Fish matchup. But I never drew it when it mattered. So, I don't think Show and Tell got a good chance to be evaluated, one way or the other.

I went 6th place (3-2) in a 5 round 18 man tournament yesterday with Elephant Oath. And I think bounce or Latnam's should be removed for Show and Tell.
I don't really like Tezzeret since he seems to die to almost every deck with creatures and there are many times when you are faced with either a Confidant or some sort of Bant creature. I think he should be another Terastodon.
I also think that Darksteel Colossus should have been Inkwell Leviathan. Since Bant runs Swords to Plowshares, shroud is now a factor as oppose to the time when the meta was mostly Hurkyl's Recall and you could take a chance with running Darksteel Colossus. Plus Inkwell Leviathan pitches to Force of Will should it ever go to your hand and I have seen too many situations when that mattered.
The problem is that Darksteel Colossus gives Dredge 1 less turn to race you as opposed to Inkwell. What do you guys think?
I also think that this deck should stay 3 colors. You will find yourself fetching for Green when you have both Green and Red spells in your hand too many times too. (1 time in a tournament is way too many times I think).

We need to stop calling the Vintage WUG deck as fish. It is Bant. Not Merfolk at all.

[Odd mutation]

I used the Show and Tells in the Oath mirror too with some succes. But it's a dangerous move and you better be careful that you come out 'on top'. I was considering putting one in the main instead of the Lat-Nam's Legacy.

Rich and the Dutch team,

Very interestig list! I've been playing it since I saw it here and it feels great. I'll be certain to test it further.

I don't think these questions got an answer? Or if I missed it, sorry...

In hindsight, do you think that some of the non-elephant cards in your deck would have been better as additional elephants?

Did you consider maindeck Show and Tell? I would think that any card that gets elephants into play faster and harder would merit maindeck inclusion.

Have you considered upping the total amount of elephants in your deck to combat cards like Jester's Cap and Sadistic Sacrament?

I'm also wondering if you missed the Vroman combo possibility through Krosan Reclamation? I'm trying one less Sensei's Divining Top for one copy of Krosan Reclamation. What's your opinion?

I'm wondering about one Hurkyl's Recall or one Echoing Truth in the main. What do you think about that and what would would you swap?

Can you also shed some light on the sideboard strategies?

Thanks,

Robrecht

[Marske]

I used the Show and Tells in the Oath mirror too with some succes. But it's a dangerous move and you better be careful that you come out 'on top'. I was considering putting one in the main instead of the Lat-Nam's Legacy.

It's a calculated risk however, as you're trying to get your creatures in hand and the other player is trying to get them to stay in the deck.

Rich and the Dutch team,

Very interestig list! I've been playing it since I saw it here and it feels great. I'll be certain to test it further.

Thanks, glad you like it.

In hindsight, do you think that some of the non-elephant cards in your deck would have been better as additional elephants?

I think 1 Elephant is correct.

Did you consider maindeck Show and Tell? I would think that any card that gets elephants into play faster and harder would merit maindeck inclusion.

There is hardly any room and you only want Show and Tell against specific matchups.

Have you considered upping the total amount of elephants in your deck to combat cards like Jester's Cap and Sadistic Sacrament?

Yes, we have. 3 creatures is however the maximum I would ever run in an Oath deck. You also have TV/Key + Tezzeret as a win making you immume to those cards from the get go. (obv to a certain degree)

I'm also wondering if you missed the Vroman combo possibility through Krosan Reclamation? I'm trying one less Sensei's Divining Top for one copy of Krosan Reclamation. What's your opinion?

It's not a guaranteed win after activating Oath the second time (like in Vroman Oath) because you got all these critters in the deck. The reason one would include K-Rec or Blessing is mainly to avoid Decking.

I'm wondering about one Hurkyl's Recall or one Echoing Truth in the main. What do you think about that and what would would you swap?

We tried it but didn't like it for a host of reasons. I don't think there are cards save for LnL that I'd swap for it.

Can you also shed some light on the sideboard strategies?

Yes we could, however, I think it's best that Rich explain it as I've not had nearly as much experience with playing the deck as he has.

[The Atog Lord]

Marius has answered most of the questions about the deck. Regarding sideboarding, the thing to remember is that there are no hard-and-fast rules. Vintage, more than most formats, has a lot of variance even within a particular archetype. So, what makes sense against one build may not make sense against a similar, but slightly different build.

In general, you can cut a few mana sources against decks not attacking your manabase. Claims come in against Workshop decks. Do they come in against, say, Tezzeret? That's going to depend on exactly how the opposing Tezz deck is configured. But you'll seldom go wrong with Duress in that matchup. And I don't think you would want to bring in Bribery and Show and Tell in the same match.

Lat-Nam's Legacy gets boarded out pretty much every single time.

[Odd mutation]

Thanks a million for the very fast and clear answers!

I'm only bringing in Show and Tell and Bribery together when facing the Oath mirror... I'll keep one Oath and bring in the two Duress, two Show and Tell and the Bribery. In testing against Iona Oath, I was winning (almost) every game...

I really want to test the Workshop matchup(s)...

Thanks and good luck with your next project(s)... injeckt us with some new poison (=Prodigy).
If I make it to Breda soon, I'll try this deck... almost for sure!

Robrecht

EDIT: Oh, I didn't want to add Krosan Reclamation to combo out really fast. It is an extra win if your creatures get bogged down 'though and it's sometimes very handy to shuffle certain cards into your deck (after a 'forced choice Gifts Ungiven' for example, or when you milled a winner card and have the tutor afterwards, ...).

[The Atog Lord]

Krosan Rec doesn't belong in the deck. Decking has never come up in testing or tournament play. Krosan Rec is a card that is inert on its own, and is not blue. The deck already has too many of both of these types of cards, and I wouldn't want to add a card which is both.

[Tha Gunslinga]

I would probably run the 1 Show and Tell main over the Lat-Nam's Legacy.  It's a great Mystical Tutor target when you're sitting there with a creature in hand.

I like bringing in Show and Tell vs any deck that has dedicated Oath hate.  Here's a list of great anti-Oath cards:
Blood Moon
Ray of Revelation
Goblin Bombardment
Nature's Claim
Spawning Pit
Greater Gargadon

None of them stop Show and Tell.  It is absolutely amazing vs hate, and I just love beating people while they've got hands full of useless SB cards.

[Rico Suave]

I can't speak for Rich, but I have not been running Show and Tell lately.  S+T was primarily used against Fish to side-step their Pridemages and Predators and Meddling Mages.  However, since adding Tinker to the deck my Fish match went from unfavorable to really good.  I just don't think S+T is necessary. 

I do however run a Bribery main deck and the card has been nothing but excellent for me.  I'm 5-1 in Oath mirror matches since adding it, and the one loss was a pretty unfortunate fluke (Brainstorm/fetch, Ancestral, TFK all in one turn...end up with Spell Pierce and 6 lands). 

[Cyberpunker]

I can't speak for Rich, but I have not been running Show and Tell lately.  S+T was primarily used against Fish to side-step their Pridemages and Predators and Meddling Mages.  However, since adding Tinker to the deck my Fish match went from unfavorable to really good.  I just don't think S+T is necessary. 

What robot do you use？

[Tha Gunslinga]

Now that Show and Tell is considered a terrific SB for Oath, would also Flash make the cut as a viable SB or even MD?  It still works the same as Show and Tell as far as creatures are concerned, but when cast, can give your opponents looks that are priceless.  What say you?

How does Flash do anything for you?  You can't Flash in Iona or Darksteel without having to pay for them, and Flashing in Terastodon is pretty underwhelming.  Flash is restricted, too.

[DubDub]

Now that Show and Tell is considered a terrific SB for Oath, would also Flash make the cut as a viable SB or even MD?  It still works the same as Show and Tell as far as creatures are concerned, but when cast, can give your opponents looks that are priceless.  What say you?

How does Flash do anything for you?  You can't Flash in Iona or Darksteel without having to pay for them, and Flashing in Terastodon is pretty underwhelming.  Flash is restricted, too.

If you flash Darksteel or Progenitus they get shuffled back into your library?  If that's the reason then it seems much much worse than sticking with Lat-Nam's Legacy.

[Rico Suave]

What robot do you use？

Sphinx.  Sphinx is really, really good.

Also, other changes that helped against Fish include adding extra mana sources.  One of them is Library which houses Fish if they don't draw a Wasteland, and even if they do have one it's a Wasteland not aimed at your other sources.

[healo]

So basicly, what is the biggest strength of this deck, along with weakness? Or say, improvement, that makes so much difference? Im kinda confused, since it lookes smtn like Iona Combo without combo and with 3 creatures, which comes really randomly.. Probably the variety of lines of play, or overal flexibility? Id like to hear some general statemens. Im now playing Iona Oath with Krosan + Twister and it feels really good with Balance + Deed main, extremnly flexible. Thanks

[Joblin Velder]

Now that Show and Tell is considered a terrific SB for Oath, would also Flash make the cut as a viable SB or even MD?  It still works the same as Show and Tell as far as creatures are concerned, but when cast, can give your opponents looks that are priceless.  What say you?

How does Flash do anything for you?  You can't Flash in Iona or Darksteel without having to pay for them, and Flashing in Terastodon is pretty underwhelming.  Flash is restricted, too.

Flash is an instant and will usually be casted during the end of your opponents turn.  And yes, you have to pay extra for the creature to be placed in play, but is that really an issue versus the fact that it is an instant and compared to Show and Tell which is a sorcery and will also let your opponents do the same thing?

This is the best post ever on these forums.

[vassago]

Now that Show and Tell is considered a terrific SB for Oath, would also Flash make the cut as a viable SB or even MD?  It still works the same as Show and Tell as far as creatures are concerned, but when cast, can give your opponents looks that are priceless.  What say you?

How does Flash do anything for you?  You can't Flash in Iona or Darksteel without having to pay for them, and Flashing in Terastodon is pretty underwhelming.  Flash is restricted, too.

Flash is an instant and will usually be casted during the end of your opponents turn.  And yes, you have to pay extra for the creature to be placed in play, but is that really an issue versus the fact that it is an instant and compared to Show and Tell which is a sorcery and will also let your opponents do the same thing?

This is the best post ever on these forums.

lol

[The Atog Lord]

Guys, can we please not derail this thread by laughing at the comments that are being made? Please?

[Tha Gunslinga]

So basicly, what is the biggest strength of this deck, along with weakness? Or say, improvement, that makes so much difference? Im kinda confused, since it lookes smtn like Iona Combo without combo and with 3 creatures, which comes really randomly.. Probably the variety of lines of play, or overal flexibility? Id like to hear some general statemens. Im now playing Iona Oath with Krosan + Twister and it feels really good with Balance + Deed main, extremnly flexible. Thanks

It's not full of random crap like the combo list.  You don't run stuff like Mishra's Factory, Timetwister, Krosan Reclamation, and Flash of Insight, cards that you generally don't want to see in your opening hand.  You're not dead to Extirpate or graveyard hate.  You're not dead to Sadistic Sacrament.  You run Tinker/DSC, which will win you a LOT of games on its own.

[healo]

I see, but compared to this list, you dont want to draw one of your creatures, which is completly dead, compared to say Mishra's Factory and Timetwister. Those cards can actually do something for you instead of sitting there in you hand. Krosan Reclamation is very good for countering opponents tutor, disturbing Will and it eats dredge for breakfast, along with Timetwister. This is for futher disscusion though. Flash of Insight is the weakest spot there probably, but it sometimes lets you do amazing things post 1st Oath activation.. Not to mention, that nowadays it becomes very important to run things like deed, or balance, because of rising popularity of mainly Fish, and even Stax decks (deed also very useful here). On the other hand, you are right with grave hate, extirpate, Sad-Sac.. But those are cards you will rarely see 1st game, then you are set with your board options for yard hate. Agreed on that Tinker/DSC thing, this proved strong. I find myself pretty often boarding Tinker/Sphinx in.. Sometimes I switch back to combo in game 3.

[Cyberpunker]

I see, but compared to this list, you dont want to draw one of your creatures, which is completly dead,

Show and Tell I think is the answer. Testing...


@Rico

Sphinx.  Sphinx is really, really good.

Also, other changes that helped against Fish include adding extra mana sources.  One of them is Library which houses Fish if they don't draw a Wasteland, and even if they do have one it's a Wasteland not aimed at your other sources.

But the main threat to your robot that Fish Bant has is StP or Path. Sphinx, like DSC, is vulnerable to that. And yes you can Oath again and yes you can counter...but that is not alway the case...What do you think about Inkwell instead? Maybe even Triskilion if your meta calls for it.


@everyone

What do you guys think about dropping Red options and adding Disfigure and Death Mark to your s/b against Fish Bant ?

[The Atog Lord]

What do you guys think about dropping Red options and adding Disfigure and Death Mark to your s/b against Fish Bant ?

There's no red in the deck. As for Disfigure/Deathmark, I've yet to need any creature removal at all.

[Tha Gunslinga]

If your metagame is EXTREMELY heavy in Fish, I suppose you can do things like that, but I'd rather just board in Show and Tell and Terastodon and make 18 on your side.

[healo]

If your metagame is EXTREMELY heavy in Fish, I suppose you can do things like that, but I'd rather just board in Show and Tell and Terastodon and make 18 on your side.

I tested exactly this option today and to be completly ohnest, I didnt feel like it was doing enough.. 1st, Show and Tell is a bit expensive, having terastadon in your hand at the same time is also problematic. Dropping Oath is option, but they will always drop something scary, like Selkie, Pridemage and get control in their turn.. Im not sure its a right direction to want creatures in your hand, playing Oath. I will test more to prove this wrong, but Im just not satisfied in this all-in plan.

edit: Once it resolves, 18 dmg in 4 creatures is pretty much game against any kind of Fish, however. Getting rid of Island Walk is very tweaking.

[Cyberpunker]

The way I look at it is like this:

It is way better to draw the creature and have a Show and Tell in your deck than it is to draw the creature and not hav a Show and Tell in your deck. Either way you would want a Show and Tell or a Latnam's Legacy. I choose Show and Tell because you can win with it too.

[Rico Suave]

But the main threat to your robot that Fish Bant has is StP or Path. Sphinx, like DSC, is vulnerable to that. And yes you can Oath again and yes you can counter...but that is not alway the case...What do you think about Inkwell instead? Maybe even Triskilion if your meta calls for it.

Inkwell is vulnerable to something much, much worse - your life total reaching 0. 

In my last tournament, I had 3 situations come up where the Tinker target truly mattered. 

1) My Workshop opponent has me at 3 life, with Magus of the Moon, 2 Solemn Simulacrums, 2 Goblin Welders, and a freshly cast Lodestone Golem when I get to Oath.  It should actually be noted that not even Sphinx would save me from this situation, and my opponent says "there's only one thing you can Oath up that will matter."  I do manage to Oath up Terastodon and create an army for myself to stabilize.  Later I get Sphinx and kill him. 

If this had been Inkwell, guess what?  I stand no chance of winning this game.  He has no Islands, and he can simply block with an artifact and weld it in response to absorb the damage.  Iona was not an option - it was in my hand, and with his Null Rod out I would need to tap 3 Orchards to cast it, but those 3 spirit tokens would have simply killed me on his next turn even through my army.

2) I am playing against Elias with MUD, and we are on game 3.  He has 3 Eon Hubs in play to my Oath, and spirit tokens are hitting me hard.  I set up M.Scroll -> M.Tutor -> Tinker and cast it for Sphinx.  At this point I am at 2 life and he has 4-5 spirit tokens and a Metalworker.  Inkwell would have given me no chance to win this game.  As it turns out he topdecked a Duplicant before I could untap and protect Sphinx with my Forces in hand.  But at least I made him need a lucky topdeck by using Sphinx, where Inkwell would have just made him shrug and say "so what."

3) I was facing down my opponent's Inkwell.  If I Tinker for Inkwell, he beats me in the race.  Instead, I Tinker for Sphinx and win the race.

These are just from my last tournament.  I don't know how many times in testing Sphinx has been glorious.  Flying, vigilance, and lifelink are all just amazing.