[report] Hey, who let in all these Elephants? A First Place Report.

[Tha Gunslinga]

I tested exactly this option today and to be completly ohnest, I didnt feel like it was doing enough.. 1st, Show and Tell is a bit expensive, having terastadon in your hand at the same time is also problematic. Dropping Oath is option, but they will always drop something scary, like Selkie, Pridemage and get control in their turn.. Im not sure its a right direction to want creatures in your hand, playing Oath. I will test more to prove this wrong, but Im just not satisfied in this all-in plan.

edit: Once it resolves, 18 dmg in 4 creatures is pretty much game against any kind of Fish, however. Getting rid of Island Walk is very tweaking.

Show and Tell costs one mana more than Oath.  Since when is 3 mana expensive?  It's not like Fish can get much on the board before you get 3 mana up, and you run enough basics to dodge their Strips.  Why is Pridemage or Selkie a threat?  You can Show and Tell out Terastodon, Iona, or DSC and crush them.  I really don't see why Show and Tell is bad in any way here.

[Cyberpunker]

@Rico

Thanks for your input on the MUD matchup. You should still test Sphinx out vs Bant though. Right now, my concern is beating MUD and Bant because those are the decks on the rise.

Tezzeret is on the decline people...Wizards made it happen again.

[healo]

@Rico

Thanks for your input on the MUD matchup. You should still test Sphinx out vs Bant though. Right now, my concern is beating MUD and Bant because those are the decks on the rise.

Tezzeret is on the decline people...Wizards made it happen again.

Agreed, Its really shiffting to Stax, Fish, even TPS maybe again.. Those 2-3 are primary goals. Last Blue Bell is definitely speaking for itself. We might see even the old all-haste plan doing good again. Im about to try Chalice Oath again..

[Troy_Costisick]

I don't know about TPS just yet, but definately Rod and Shop decks are rising well.

[Rico Suave]

@Rico

Thanks for your input on the MUD matchup. You should still test Sphinx out vs Bant though. Right now, my concern is beating MUD and Bant because those are the decks on the rise.

Tezzeret is on the decline people...Wizards made it happen again.

I have done quite a bit of testing against Bant decks.  I still prefer Sphinx over Inkwell, in large part because those decks can actually hit pretty hard.  For reference the last time I lost to Null Rod aggro was to Elias in the top 8 of a NYSE tournament and here is how he described it in his report:

--------------------

Games 2 and 3 both went according to plan. For example, the game two life reads like this:

Matt: 20

Brad: 20, 19, 18, 10, 2

--------------------

Their aggro component must be respected.  

Granted this happened before adding Tinker to the deck, and since adding Tinker I haven't lost to Fish (including beating Elias in the next tournament).  Nevertheless, it is still important to be able to Tinker at low life and stabilize, which is something Inkwell would not be able to do.  

[Tha Gunslinga]

Just won a Sapphire with this today.  It was amazing.

[Cyberpunker]

Just won a Sapphire with this today.  It was amazing.

b d  Can you give us a report?  

[Tha Gunslinga]

Round 1:
Tommy Kolowith w/Reanimator
Game 1 I have Orchard/Mox/Oath.  He has no Force.  I follow up with Time Walk, then Regrow the Walk and blow him out.
Game 2 I have another good hand and wreck him.

Round 2:
Danny Friedman with UR Control
Game 1 he wrecks me with massive control.
Game 2 he has a not-as-good hand and I go long and set up a Will.  I topdeck Lotus, play it, Duress him, drop the Will, and it's over.  I nearly lost this one by walking Show and Tell into his DSC in-hand, but I pushed through a Duress first that let me know what was up.
Game 3 he mulls into a poor hand and gets crushed by my turn 1 Library that draws me infinite restricted cards.

Round 3:
James King with Oath mirror
Game 1 I crush him.  I draw broken cards and he draws counters.
Game 2 I crush him worse.  I get Tez out, start ramping it up.  He has to burn Nature's Claims keeping artifacts off the board, so I just rip Academy, tap out, untap Crypt/Mox, and cast DSC.  It's over.

Round 4/5 ID

Top 8:
Jason with TPS
Game 1 he gets absolutely NOTHING and I wreck him.
Game 2 he opens with Leyline, I have a slower hand, and he punches a Helm through with backup.  I lose.
Game 3 I Strip his Sea and keep him off BBB so he can't cast Necro or Sad Sac.  I Duress his Helm, then Oath up Terastodon and blow his other two black sources.

Top 4: Owen with The Deck
Game 1 I open with the nuts and blow him out.
Game 2 he tries to play Lotus, Will, but I stop him, respond to Will with Top, find a Spell Pierce as the third card (only one I didn't know), Pierce the Lotus, forcing him to tap out, so his Will consists merely of replaying Lotus, Recall, Walk, and then he dies to my massive board.

Finals:  Jeff with Noble Fish
Game 1 I open with Sapphire, Forest, Oath.  Turn 2 I play another one.  That's enough to stall him for a while.  I Pierce a Null Rod, then eventually find an Orchard and it's over.
Game 2 he Pierces my turn 1 Pearl, Strips my land, Wastes another land, and continually keeps me off Tinker mana until I die.
Game 3 I open with Land, Mox, Mox, Oath, Sensei's Top.  He drops Null Rod, and like a fool I don't draw blindly in response.  Of COURSE the next card is Force, and I had a blue card in hand.  Anyway, he Strips me, I eventually draw Orchard, give him a guy.  He plays Goyf and passes.  I Oath up Iona, name white, pass.  He does nothing.  I Oath up Terastodon, blow up my Oath and 2 Moxen, and next turn I have lethal incoming.

Props to Rich once again.  I cut the Lat-Nam's Legacy for a maindeck Show and Tell, but otherwise it's the stock list.  The maindeck StD didn't really affect things, but I'd rather have it there than the Legacy.  AMAZING deck.

Props:
Everyone there.
The new Vintage crowd.  You know who you are.
Eric and Shannon from Xtreme Games.
Terastodon
Jeff for some great games.
Everyone else I faced for being cool.

[The Atog Lord]

Hey Ben, congratulations and thanks for the report. Lat-Nam's Legacy is, by a fairly large margin, the most cut-worthy card in the deck.

[Evenpence]

Hey Ben, congratulations and thanks for the report. Lat-Nam's Legacy is, by a fairly large margin, the most cut-worthy card in the deck.

Hey Ben, congratulations and thanks for the report. Lat-Nam's Legacy is, by a fairly large margin, the most cut-worthy card in the deck.

Hey Rich!  Long time no see, hope you're doing well, seems you're dominating as always.  The Shaymaster never lets me down.

Anyway, these might be silly questions and forgive me if I don't understand the deck completely.

What do you think about only running Iona as the singleton creature and using the next oath turn to mill your deck, krosan grip into Yawg Will draw step into win?  I know this is much more combo-ish and takes out a win condition (tinker into colossus).  It might not be worth it as if you activate Oath you pretty much win no matter what.  I'm just curious on what your thoughts on are it.

[The Atog Lord]

Some matches, that is ideal. Against Ichorid, you want to win right away. But it has its drawbacks. It opens you up to losing to an unexpected Extirpate, for instance. Moreover, against Fish and Stax, the lone Iona isn't going to be enough oftentimes, and actually comboing out will be difficult. In those matches, I would much, much rather have several creatures in my deck. And especially against Fish, being able to Tinker is invaluable.

[mistervader]

Could Jace find a home in this deck in lieu of the Lat-Nam's Legacy?

I was just thinking about that, because yeah, he costs a lot at 4 mana, but he's not only a Brainstorm on pseudo-legs, he's also another kill condition you can work with, and also bounces, if needed be.

Just a thought.

[Cyberpunker]

Could Jace find a home in this deck in lieu of the Lat-Nam's Legacy?

I was just thinking about that, because yeah, he costs a lot at 4 mana, but he's not only a Brainstorm on pseudo-legs, he's also another kill condition you can work with, and also bounces, if needed be.

Just a thought.

I do not know...I do know that I do not ever wish I had Jace so far though...Show and Tell is the way to go.

You can pay   for a Brainstorm that doubles as a TopDeck destroying machine.

Or you can pay   and lay down your Elephant and go HULK SMASH!!!

[policehq]

Could Jace find a home in this deck in lieu of the Lat-Nam's Legacy?

I was just thinking about that, because yeah, he costs a lot at 4 mana, but he's not only a Brainstorm on pseudo-legs, he's also another kill condition you can work with, and also bounces, if needed be.

Just a thought.

I do not know...I do know that I do not ever wish I had Jace so far though...Show and Tell is the way to go.

You can pay   for a Brainstorm that doubles as a TopDeck destroying machine.

Or you can pay   and lay down your Elephant and go HULK SMASH!!!

It seems that Show and Tell replaces Lat-Nam's Legacy. Jace could replace Sensei's Divining Top, perhaps.

[Cyberpunker]

Do we need Sensei though? I have lost all my matches when I drew it, and that is a sign to cut it.

I would rather run Imperial Seal than Sensei. Demonic Consultation even (Though in Oath I would be more careful to run it because of the fact that it can nuke your creatures)

[policehq]

Do we need Sensei though? I have lost all my matches when I drew it, and that is a sign to cut it.

Exactly...?

[Cyberpunker]

Do we need Sensei though? I have lost all my matches when I drew it, and that is a sign to cut it.

Exactly...?

Well I think that there are better slots than Sensei's Divining Top. I tried out Imperial Seal for a while, then I cut it for Show and Tell because Imperial Seal was too slow and cannot be synergetic with Oath like Vampiric Tutor can. My list has 4 creatures main deck as well as 1 Show and Tell. That so far seems to be enough and I have had no problems in playtesting and in tournaments (Just won another 3 round local tournament vs TPS, Tyrant Oath, and MUD)

I support running 4 Mana Drains, 4 Spell Pierce, and 4 Force of Will. 1 Tinker also. 1 Hurkyl's in the sideboard so you don't lose to early Tinker vs Tezzeret/Oath.


BTW:

It is very funny how TheAtogLord's tournament report has turned into TMD's unofficial Elephant Oath discussion. (YES its name is Elephant Oath)

[The Atog Lord]

In all fairness, the tournament report was really half tournament report, and half deck discussion. I've been thinking about moving the thread into the Vintage Open forum.

Now, as for some of the ideas. Sensei's Divining Top does some things very well. Against control, as a game goes later, it improves draw quality. But, we only have four fetchlands, and no repeals, and so are less able to take advantage of Top than many other decks using it. The question is, what do you replace it with, if you cut it. Personally, I feel like it is quite reasonable to play, and better than Imperial Seal, a card that I've never much liked in any deck. Impulse is not unlike Top, better when first cast but weaker as the game progresses. Something like Show and Tell is a very different card than Top, being a threat rather than a filtering card. I might consider trying Duress if I were hellbent on cutting Top (which I am not), since Duress was very strong for me out of the board.

[Cyberpunker]

I simply do not have room for Top after adding Ponder, Brainstorm, Mystical, Merchant's Scroll, Demonic, and Vampiric. I am running 26 mana sources, 4 creatures, 1 Gifts Ungiven, and 1 Show and Tell.

Top is very weak early game and if you activate it the turn after you cast it, you are tieing up your mana. I would rather run Impulse over Top because it can be pitched for FoW and digs 1 card deeper. The late game, Top is good because you are both topdecking for the win.

But I personally do not have room for Top. And I would run Imperial Seal over top because it can tutor for me cards like

Ancestral
Orchard
Oath
Time Vault
Key
Force of Will

And Sensei's Divining Top will only get me a slow Impulse. That being said, I never did like Top when playing Tezzeret either. I was forced to run 2 Sensei when I ran 4 Confidants. But that was the only reason I was running Top (to not die to my 4 Confidants).

So maybe it is my personal preference, or my playstyle that warrants me cutting Top all together.

[policehq]

Do we need Sensei though? I have lost all my matches when I drew it, and that is a sign to cut it.

Exactly...?

Well I think that there are better slots than Sensei's Divining Top.

I don't think I've gotten my point across, sorry.

Originally, when Jace was recommended, you inferred that it would replace Lat-Nam's Legacy and said that Show and Tell has already replaced LNL. You're correct.

Jace, instead, would replace 1 of the 2 Sensei's Divining Tops in Rich's original list, since it, like Top, is a card-fixer, and Show And Tell, like Lat-Nam's Legacy, helps to offset the drawbacks of dead cards in your hand. Clearly, you aren't happy with Sensei's Divining Top anyway, so Jace could be a solid replacement.

If not, oh well. It was worth testing.

[Cyberpunker]

Sorry, I misread your post.

But I do not know if we need a slot that Divining Top/Jace would fill. I have not tested it though, but do not plan to because I am already happy with what I have built. If I start losing, then I will try out Jace.

But don't you guys think that Jace is making Oath into a controlish deck? The point of playing Oath is to hurry up your huge guy and win. Jace would seem to slow the deck down. Not saying that is a bad thing, just a different approach now.

[turn3ionawin]

I have seen alot of tps decks making a showing again, I tried playing the deck for my first time this month. The deck its self is very hard to pilot but when 3 of your 5 matches are fish and all three are running true believe main board you kinda just lose.. if you cant hit chain or massacre after side board and it resolves you just sit there and get beat to death. I was nothing more then collateral damage, their idea was to beat oath with it and it just happens to end my game too.

[Cyberpunker]

I have seen alot of tps decks making a showing again, I tried playing the deck for my first time this month. The deck its self is very hard to pilot but when 3 of your 5 matches are fish and all three are running true believe main board you kinda just lose.. if you cant hit chain or massacre after side board and it resolves you just sit there and get beat to death. I was nothing more then collateral damage, their idea was to beat oath with it and it just happens to end my game too.

Have you tried Deathmark and Disfigure on the s/b?

[turn3ionawin]

i thought about its essentially the same as massacre except massacre is free in the fish match up and a free +1 to storm count. The problem is drawing it or finding a way to get it before the game gets stupidly twisted in their advantage. Fish in general is just an annoying match up for tps but with true believers running around main board its just a headache and a half.

[LotusHead]

If the worst thing ever in Oath is having dudes in your hand (since 4 Brainstorm is a thing of the past), maybe this could be "good"

Oath isn't a combo deck trying to win on turn 2 or 3 anymore (although it takes wins were it gets it).  Lat-Nam's Legacy gets you a random card (or is it two?) while this is actual hand manipulation.  Just a thought.

[Cyberpunker]

i thought about its essentially the same as massacre except massacre is free in the fish match up and a free +1 to storm count. The problem is drawing it or finding a way to get it before the game gets stupidly twisted in their advantage. Fish in general is just an annoying match up for tps but with true believers running around main board its just a headache and a half.

Ever since my last owning by Selkie, I have been siding in 4 Deathmarks and 2 Disfigures. If I see the Meta does not include Dredge(only possible in a local tourney btw), then I have 4 Deathmarks and 4 Disfigures game 2 and if necessary game 3.......

You need more than 1 or 2 Massacres.

[The Atog Lord]

Ah, Dream Cache. I don't hold especially high expectations for that one, since Compulsive Research, which is often just better, wasn't good enough. And we tested that one quite a bit. Still, I applaud the out-of-the-box thinking.

You need more than 1 or 2 Massacres.

I don't entirely agree with this. I'm not sure that loading up on creature removal like an Extended control deck is an ideal solution. Show and Tell would seem to do more than a -2/-2 draft card would in terms of actually winning the game. I've found the Fish matchup to be not far from even, and I've been playing without any removal at all.

[turn3ionawin]

Ah, Dream Cache. I don't hold especially high expectations for that one, since Compulsive Research, which is often just better, wasn't good enough. And we tested that one quite a bit. Still, I applaud the out-of-the-box thinking.

You need more than 1 or 2 Massacres.

I don't entirely agree with this. I'm not sure that loading up on creature removal like an Extended control deck is an ideal solution. Show and Tell would seem to do more than a -2/-2 draft card would in terms of actually winning the game. I've found the Fish matchup to be not far from even, and I've been playing without any removal at all.

Now are you talking about oath vs fish or tps vs fish atog lord? Also with tps since that was what i had refered to and also kind of oath, i cant afford to give up the sideboard room to put in 4 death marks. The local meta has been flip flopping a lot as of late but the most recent tournament had 7 fish decks and 3-4 oath and no dredge. I think people are going to try to sneak in a first place dredge win next time assuming that people are going to take out sb cards for dredge because it hasnt made a showing in the last three or four tournaments.

[The Atog Lord]

I was talking about the Oath vs Fish matchup, since this is a thread about Oath. As for cutting Ichorid hate, it's a gambit that I wouldn't attempt myself. Ichorid is, frankly, too good a deck for the ``hope I don't play it'' plan.

[turn3ionawin]

Someone had mentioned tps earlier in the post and i had posted my horrid experience of running into fish playing main board true believers and being collateral damage to that it was somewhat relevant i was looking for more ideas on how oath plans to combat that when running into, you dont get to oath i win. Ya praying to not play dredge is just a bad plan and alot of the sideboard for dredge is relevant in other games. For instance, tormod's vs tezz game two so they can't go oops i got yags will i win is pretty good and needle is pretty versatile.