[Free Article] Visiting Wizards, Reprints and the Reserved List

[credmond]

A "sanctioned proxy" is just another way of saying reprint. The only difference is the added baggage that Wizards could disallow use of these so called proxies at any time. That is equivalent to saying Lightning Bolt from M2010 is legal while all other versions are considered 'proxies' and potentially may be made 'illegal' at some point in the future. This is a horrible idea.

I don't think power should be reprinted, but other high value cards and staple cards should be reprinted. By reprinting potentially anything but power the format's entry barrier would lower dramatically. By not reprinting power there is still something people can look to as a long term goal.

A sanctioned proxy is not just another way of saying reprint.

Proxies would not be collectible. They would not be rare. They would not be authentic versions of power. They would be directly purchasable from Wizards for a fixed nominal price. They would be usable in the contexts defined strictly by an authoritative body. They would not compete directly with alpha, beta, or unlimited versions of power. No collector would value any such proxy as anywhere near the value of an unlimited power card (in fact the value of the proxy would be fixed at the nominal price).

Reprinted power, on the other hand, would be collectible. They would be rare. They would be authentic versions of power. They would not be directly purchasable from Wizards for a fixed nominal price. They would be usable in any context where they are normally allowed. They would compete directly with alpha, beta, or unlimited versions of power. A collector would value a reprinted power as near the value of an unlimited power card.

The big problem with any idea of reprinting power is that it directly deflates the value of power. By reprinting power you make power less rare which directly affects a solid determinant of its intrinsic value (ie its rarity). You have to have an increase in demand to offset the increase in supply or the power will lose value since it is now less rare. If you don't get that increase in demand, power will sink in value. Reprinting power is no guarantee that the demand for power will increase or that it will sustain an increase over an extended period of time. Nehptis, there is no burden of proof here. This is all straight 2 + 2 = 4. The burden on proof is however on the proponents of reprinting power since they are in the position of guaranteeing an increase in demand over a long period of time.

Reprinting power is overkill. We already have a solution that could be implemented. Sanctioning proxied tournaments solves any and all "barrier of entry" and "growth" problems for Vintage tournaments. There is no need to reprint power to address that problem. Its like saying you have to replace your car engine when all you need is a lube job.

All I am proposing is that in addition to sanctioning proxied tournaments, Wizards could print and regulate official proxies. I think I have adequately outlined above how those proxies would not compete or threaten the position of real power. However, the real solution to the "barrier of entry" and "growth" problems is the more substantive measure that they sanction proxied tournaments.

[AmbivalentDuck]

They would not compete directly with alpha, beta, or unlimited versions of power.

Of course they would.  Everyone who owns power solely to play with it would unload it.  Why play with a $3k piece of cardboard that you have to let your opponent shuffle?  The only answer is pimp value AKA cardboard penis.

The only remaining value to power would be solely as a collector's item.

[credmond]

They would not compete directly with alpha, beta, or unlimited versions of power.

Of course they would.  Everyone who owns power solely to play with it would unload it.  Why play with a $3k piece of cardboard that you have to let your opponent shuffle?  The only answer is pimp value AKA cardboard penis.

The only remaining value to power would be solely as a collector's item.

You vastly underestimate the "pimp" value and the "collector" value and vastly exaggerate how many would unload their power. You wrongly ascribe your personal estimate of worth to what the general community would ascribe to it.

As proof, I simply need to point to prominent presence of power in the decks of American players who are free to unload that power for money since almost all of them play in strictly proxy tournaments already. This is a community who values "pimp" and "collectibles" and "trophies" and "bragging rights" and "bling" or whatever you call it. No better word for it than jewelry.  

And, moreover, it is actually a key point of my proposal that printing proxies would not alienate real power from its collector's value. That collectible value is a solid pillar upon which the value of a piece of power is based. Reprinting power directly undermines that pillar. Printing proxies on the other hand does absolutely nothing to that pillar. The power will still be as rare as it ever was.

[DubDub]

I haven't seen a convincing arguement, with examples, to persuade me that reprints would have a sustained negative impact on collectible card value.

If the only thing that changes is that there is more power, due to a reprint, and those reprints act like a normal good, then supply goes up while the demand curve stays the same.  That obviously would result in lower card prices.

I think the burden of proof is on you to show that:
-There would be a corresponding increase in demand due solely to the reprint.
-The reprints would not act like a normal good (you would want to argue that they would act like an inferior good, though this is almost entirely contingent on how WOTC designs the reprints (intentionally ugly, BB, Foil etc)).

Alternatively, actions not related to a reprint could be taken to increase demand for Vintage.  I can guarantee that those actions would not "have a sustained negative impact on collectible card value".

They would not compete directly with alpha, beta, or unlimited versions of power.

Of course they would.  Everyone who owns power solely to play with it would unload it.  Why play with a $3k piece of cardboard that you have to let your opponent shuffle?  The only answer is pimp value AKA cardboard penis.

The only remaining value to power would be solely as a collector's item.

You vastly underestimate the "pimp" value and the "collector" value and vastly exaggerate how many would unload their power. You wrongly ascribe your personal estimate of worth to what the general community would ascribe to it.

As proof, I simply need to point to prominent presence of power in the decks of American players who are free to unload that power for money since almost all of them play in strictly proxy tournaments already. This is a community who values "pimp" and "collectibles" and "trophies" and "bragging rights" and "bling" or whatever you call it. No better word for it than jewelry. 

Duck has it right, and he's not overstating his position.  Your 'proof' is also inadequate, since it is far more efficient (in terms of number of cards actually owned, and possibly total personal-cardbase value) to own power and proxy Shops/Drains/Bazaars/Lesser-Cards etc than the other way around.
Reprints and proxies are better substitutes to actual power for players than they are for collectors (and players in a non-proxy environment).  We have seen with the introduction of the proxy system in the US an exodus of power owned by players, ending up in the hands of collectors and European players.

[Lemnear]

They would not compete directly with alpha, beta, or unlimited versions of power.

Of course they would.  Everyone who owns power solely to play with it would unload it.  Why play with a $3k piece of cardboard that you have to let your opponent shuffle?  The only answer is pimp value AKA cardboard penis.

The only remaining value to power would be solely as a collector's item.

You vastly underestimate the "pimp" value and the "collector" value and vastly exaggerate how many would unload their power. You wrongly ascribe your personal estimate of worth to what the general community would ascribe to it.

As proof, I simply need to point to prominent presence of power in the decks of American players who are free to unload that power for money since almost all of them play in strictly proxy tournaments already. This is a community who values "pimp" and "collectibles" and "trophies" and "bragging rights" and "bling" or whatever you call it. No better word for it than jewelry.  

If WotC decides to put some more unlimited power into the circle maybe like they did in zendikar (maybe about 5K of pieces) that wouldn't hurt the price to much and the beloved black borders stay at their collectors worth. But the thing I'm horrified about is that it seems like some people want some BB Foil reprints of power. So if these are printed you can throw away your betas and grab some of these ... together with some long expected Judge FoW you can play all foil all new frame vintage.

I own beta power and yeah I'm a foil-junkie too and I would really consider dumping my power for a BB foiled set that is also cheaper than my betas.  BB power is collectors stuff and should stay it. Some want a reprint frame of like 20k which almost doubles the amount of power available and nobody could argue that the price won't be affected "because the amount of players will follow suit". Some saying that large reprints are vital for keeping vintage alive as a format but that is bullshit. It's only 'cause some people think that vintage is all about having more power than the other one. And thats no bit more true than "Vintage is all about 1st turn kills". To me that kind of thinking are exactly the same.


@DubDub: The thing you mentioned about the power tranfer to europe is exactly that I adress in my first post. It resulted in a shortage of power in the us and then the prices rose and due to a pretty stong euro compared to the dollar any kind of buyback is nuts. The call for reprints of power is loudest in the US and near to no topic in europe ... how strange, isn't it?  ;op

[hvndr3d y34r h3x]

I can't believe how many people here, especially what I'd consider elite players, are in favor of reprinting staples of the caliber of P9, FoW and duals. That it would make for a better, healthier format is wishful thinking. We can argue that it would bring more players to the average tournament, but more players does not make a better format. Look at how hard it is to find a quality Vintage opponent on MWS. I'm not even talking about how they play Stax, I'm talking about Forest -> Birds of Paradise....

...The real problem is that Vintage gets no official support from WoTC. We get World Champs at GenCon without even the courtesy of a video archive of the Final match. Legacy is in the same boat, both formats have a horrible 'underground' feel to it, like we're some black sheep or outcasts of the general playing community. I'd argue that if high tier cards were to be reprinted, most people would do it just for collecting / dealing, since they'd have no knowledge of the formats in which they're legal.

This post has been sort of a catalyst for me. It really gives us a better picture of the type of player we’d be making reprints to accommodate. The type of person who plays on msw, under “vintage” game title, and not “casual”, but is definitely missing some of the fundamental necessaries of the format. He or she is definitely interested in the format, and here is where I’ll start my response, first to the post referenced.

Whether or not I’m in favor of reprints, the resulting game play would be nothing like that which is provided by the anonymity of msw.  People can see clear tourney results and learn from better players, opposed to the, “hey, fuck you! I’m the best player in my play group! Blah blah blah, I beat those guys all the time so I must be right.” Obviously the starting point for some of these players could be birds of paradise, but you’ve got to start somewhere. Another thing I’ve observed on msw is that there is also an interesting stigma amongst some of those players to play with moxen ect. I know I’ve seen more than a few game titles that read, “T1, DECKS YOU OWN”. These players feel it isn’t right to play with a representation of a card you did not somehow acquire, and that is where a lot of people get disinterested in t1 in the US, the proxy environment. Reprints would fix this stigma for many players.

 What we are really asking for when we ask for reprints in a chance to grow our player community, specifically the player community (that’s not to say it wouldn’t be beneficial for the collector community in some ways, or at some points), and I think reprints would do that. Honestly, if I ripped some sort of mox emerald reprint as a young lad, I would want to see what sort of high powered stratagem I could employ with it, starting probably with elves (c’mon man, 2 llanowar elves turn 1! ), and growing from there. Also I can recall myself as a new player, my primary goal was to acquire all the staples as cheaply as possible, and then upgrade my favorites from there, but getting to that point could, and for me did, take years and that is a problem, it realistically would take the market a pretty long time to be comparable to where it was before reprints. Granted my experience as a new player is not true for everyone (a friend of mine who started at the same time wanted some pimp alpha power despite the proxy option, with rebs and bebs to match!) but I think it’s a reasonable assumption to say my experiences and mind sets as a new player would be representative of most interested players.

Does vintage need support from WOTC? I’d say yes but not much really, its dependant on many factors (where it is, where it’s going, where WOTC wants it to be going, and I obviously don’t have most of those answers). I’m not going to suggest any course of action, because I’m pretty sure WOTC has thought about this more in-depth than the vast majority of us. Obviously WOTC needs the eternal formats to maintain the secondary market and make standard, its primary format, unless you count casual, a more appealing investment. We’re definitely not the “WOTC hates us and wants us to go away because they hate us” format some of the less informed players make t1 out to be. If we where, I don’t think lodestone golem would have seen print, and we wouldn’t be having this discussion.

One thing I can tell you that is not going to happen in the foreseeable future is power reprints; it’s just not going to happen any time soon. As well as sanctioned proxy events. It just makes no sense for WOTC to formally allow a substitution for its product, that’s just bad business. Imagine if you could proxy baneslayers, there is some easy math to be done here. Granted the market eternal players deal in is often a step removed from WOTC, but it sets a bad precedence, and isn’t always the case. I could see at some point duals being reprinted out of necessity to maintain the rest of the secondary market, and as someone who owns pretty much all the duals I’ll ever play, I’m fine taking a price hit to the net total of my binder if I get some new players to compete with.  But I don’t see it happening for some time, nor do I see a mass exodus of players who already have duals.

Please use some form of formatting next time. Marske

[Marske]

First,
Steve, this was a tremendous article (great pics) and I agree with you once more regarding 99.9% of your views presented in this article.

Second,
As a player, collector, tournament organizer and participant in promoting Vintage by doing a lot of stuff as most of you know I wanted to chime in on this discussion. As anybody that has ever met me can tell, I have a pretty vast collection, Beta power, 4x Beta Underground Sea, all Fetches, Duals, 4x Bazaars, 4x Shops and what not. I can build any deck in Vintage currently with zero proxies and still have enough left to build 2-3 other decks with either zero or just a few proxies. I've owned Unlimited power, 2 Ancestrals (1 Alpha 1 unlimited) 8 Bazaars at some point in time even. Safe to say I'm heavily invested in the format we all love. There are however, some things I want to address before going in depth on the reserved list.

Magic: The Gathering is a hobby (together with being a wickedly fun addiction as well ) and hobbies in general cost money, any hobby you can and  want to "compete" in / with will cost you A LOT. Stock car driving ? Old Timer collecting? Football, Baseball, Soccer you name it. Sure once you get to compete at a certain level some of these hobbies turn into jobs or you can find sponsors to fork over shit tons of cash to let you throw / kick a ball in a hoop / goal (whatever) but leading up to that point there's a lot of money involved in getting equipment, shoes, jersey, protective gear, membership of some kind etc.

You pay this money because you love working / participating in your hobby of choice. Without ever expecting to get any kind of return value, the sneakers you buy will eventually tear up leading you to have invested 100+ $ on a product you now need to replace.

People get hung up on the fact that they expect to get some kind of money or stability from their investment in Magic, this is truly and utterly bullshit. Magic the Gathering IS a Collectible Trading Card Game, True... but it isn't a stock market, or a savings account, if you want to invest in something and not lose your money go buy stocks or put that money on a bank account. There are other things you can invest in as well (Art for example) that by their very nature are intended to never be recreated (because the artist who did them died or whatever). Magic wasn't created with the idea that certain cards would sell for ridiculous amounts of money at some point in time, nor with the idea to  support those cards as an "investment".

People pay ridiculous amounts of money (Baneslayer Angel, Tarmogoyf, Reflecting Pool, Cryptic Command etc etc etc) to play standard without any realistic return value for them. Sure they "COULD" be the one lucky fellow out of those 300 (or in case of a GP 2200) people making it to first earning a fat check... but with 300-2200 people competing there's bound to be a lot of "losers" running around. If you're an idiot or just happen to have some other commitment or "miss the boat" and don't sell these cards in time before the rotation you lose A LOT of money. Do people complain? Probably. Do they still fork over a huge amount when the next Baneslayer / Goyf / Whatever comes around? Certainly. That's how magic was intended, that's how magic works and I see no reason why we the Eternal Community should complain about something that T2 and Extended players have long accepted as "the way it works".

I've made money on Vintage staples suddenly rising (Strategic Planning ?!) and lost money on staples quickly becoming obsolete (Again Strategic Planning....) Sure, it's nice to make a buck now and again on trading cards. But for the most part, Magic should be about playing a game, enjoying a hobby which, inevitably will cost you more money that you ever make on it.

With that in mind, I would gladly take a hit on the monetary value of my collection for the sake of being able to enjoy the hobby I've been enjoying for the better part of 11-12 years now. If taking that hit meant an increase in players for the format I have the biggest affection with (Vintage obv) then all the better. I don't really care as long as there IS a chance to keep competing.

Anybody playing the " I've invested X amount of money and time in finding cards Y to Z, so they shouldn't reprint it now!" card (pun intended) should take a long hard thought  about having those cards to actually play or just stroke your own ego (Hey look I have X money and Y time to buy / search for this stuff, I must be awesome right ?!) I have my collection for 2 things, I want to play, and sadly in Europe this means most of the time you can't use proxies, in the second place I like stroking my own ego enough to go after rare foils and beta stuff along with the fact I absolutely adore the old frames and artwork. But, first and foremost, I have all the stuff I have TO PLAY.

I don't expect to ever see the money I've invested back, if I do well that's nice, but If WoTC decided to pack it up next year (highly doubtfull but still) I'd lose everything anyway, which I'm fine with as it's a hobby...... If you don't want to risk losing such a huge amount of money, then don't buy that stuff. It's rather simple.

[BruiZar]

How can you make money and lose money on the same card? Either you run positive on strategic plannings or you run negative. You shouldn't look at deals individually, because that leads to biases on your results as a trader.

[Marske]

How can you make money and lose money on the same card? Either you run positive on strategic plannings or you run negative. You shouldn't look at deals individually, because that leads to biases on your results as a trader.

I made money on selling them at the time, I bought them cheap and sold them at a good price, then when they dropped I couldn't get rid of the stock I still had making them drop below what I had invested. I now had to sell at a price lower then what I had invested losing money on each one I sold. I've ran into the negative by overbuying them thinking I could easily sell them, which wasn't true.

With card prices not set in stone you can't do anything BUT look at deals individually. If I buy card X for $1.00 dollar and I can sell them for $2.00 It's a good thing. If I week after I've sold all my copies the card becomes a $10,- card I've still made money during my initial deal, if I had some stock left with the buy price of $1.- I can now make an ever bigger amount. if the card then drops to $0.50 I'm losing money. That's how stuff like this works. We're not talking set values on the commodity we're dealing with. Sure, you can look at a basic trend or look at the entire run of you selling that card (from when it was a $2,- then a $10,- and then a $0,50 card and then determine if you made money on your entire stock.

This however, isn't a really realistic way of looking at things as a single tournament can make or brake certain cards, the fluctuations are just to big to look at it this way and chances are that if the card is in high demand your stock will be gone very quickly.  This will lead you to buy in at a higher rate then you originally did, if you're not able to unload the cards fast enough before they drop you're losing money. Anybody working with any commodity that doesn't have fixed value will tell you that you make or lose money on deals, not the overall big picture. I could elaborate this much further but essentially we're dealing with something similar to an illiquid asset

[BruiZar]

If you lost money on stocking Strategic Planning, you did not make a profit. You can't make a profit and lose money at the same time, period. Try telling your board of directors how used your profit to go overboard stocking up your warehouse, but have to file for bankruptcy now cause you can't unload your crap (thus not pay your bills).

The technology / computer industry has to deal with this every day due to the constantly decreasing prices that are caused by newer technologies and constant competition. Magic isn't a special snowflake. You just lost money man. Maybe, when strategic planniing goes up (when brainstorm and ponder get banned from legacy? lol) you can finally cash out on your overstock.

[Marske]

@Bruizar,
Didn't I just state that I lost money on the entire deal, but started of making money at first ?! By sheer over confidence and greed I lost money. This discussion however, is completely off topic, so I'd appreciate it if we could get back to that.

[Killane]

@ all those looking at powetr as an "investment"

There are many different kinds of investments. Stocks, bonds, GICs, mutual funds, money market securities, etc.... Very very few of them have a "guaranteed" value, and those that do generally are not winners in terms of Return on Investment. Buying power shoudl not be like buying Treasury Bonds or Bank-issued GIC's - they're like buying stock in Vintage.

Stocks, unlike many other securities, comes with additonal privilages: voting rights in the company, attendance at the annual shareholders meeting, and dividends. Similary, magic cards come with additonal privilages: the ability to build the "best" decks in a given format, the ability to attend Sanctioned events, and the potential to Top 8 (or 16, or 64, or whatever) and earn prizes.

Just an in the world of traditional investing, you can't have your cake and eat it too. The additional privilages that come with Stock also come with a risk: the risk of loss. Even blue chips can go down (I work for one of the top-rated banks in the World, yet if you had invested two years ago in our common stock and then sold last Fed, you woudl have lost over 60% of your money. The stock is back up now and you'd be running maybe a 3% loss, which would be gained back by this summer).

Investments are speculative: if you don;t have the stomach for the risk, get out of the invesment game.

[policehq]

@killane, I think a lot of arguments are that part of the discerning process used to invest in power is the reserved list. You're right: investments are not guaranteed, but many people can take what they know about the company, their policies, etc. to make a decision about the investment.

[DubDub]

Buying power shoudl not be like buying Treasury Bonds or Bank-issued GIC's - they're like buying stock in Vintage.

Right.  Many people have bought stock in Vintage.  Many more have not.  The problem isn't that there isn't enough stock to go around (which would be cause for creating more), it's that people who don't have the stock want it at a lower than market price.

I will repeat my position again: Power has a more or less fixed value among collectors, but it's value for players depends on how useful it is.  If Vintage becomes a more attractive format, and actual Power (as opposed to proxies) becomes more useful, then more players will join Vintage, and more players will take the plunge on buying stock in the format, purchasing power away from collectors/stores.

[Tiki Walker]

....Magic: The Gathering is a hobby, and hobbies in general cost money, any hobby you can and  want to "compete" in / with will cost you A LOT...
 
You pay this money because you love working / participating in your hobby of choice. Without ever expecting to get any kind of return value.

So very true. This reminds me a lot that I also love to play computer games, which from time to time demands constant upgrades on the computer equipments necessary to be able to play modern games. Second hand computer equipments almost never beat the new, retail price from the shop. Yet I deemed constant upgrading well worth the money since I get fun out of playing the games.

....People get hung up on the fact that they expect to get some kind of money or stability from their investment in Magic, this is truly and utterly bullshit....

....Magic the Gathering IS a Collectible Trading Card Game, True... but it isn't a stock market, or a savings account, if you want to invest in something and not lose your money go buy stocks or put that money on a bank account....

....Magic wasn't created with the idea that certain cards would sell for ridiculous amounts of money at some point in time, nor with the idea to  support those cards as an "investment"...

Well said. The main purpose of playing a game is first to have fun, in my opinion. Countless times we witnessed the price of Standard MtG cards goes down after the cards rotate out, yet people who like to play Standard does not regret and keep on buying newer cards necessary to play the format they like. They invest their hobby in T2, not their money.

....People pay ridiculous amounts of money (Baneslayer Angel, Tarmogoyf, Reflecting Pool, Cryptic Command etc etc etc) to play standard without any realistic return value for them... If you're an idiot or just happen to have some other commitment or "miss the boat" and don't sell these cards in time before the rotation you lose A LOT of money. Do people complain? Probably. Do they still fork over a huge amount when the next Baneslayer / Goyf / Whatever comes around? Certainly.... That's how magic was intended, that's how magic works and I see no reason why we the Eternal Community should complain about something that T2 and Extended players have long accepted as "the way it works"....

...But for the most part, Magic should be about playing a game, enjoying a hobby which, inevitably will cost you more money that you ever make on it...


With that in mind, I would gladly take a hit on the monetary value of my collection for the sake of being able to enjoy the hobby I've been enjoying for the better part of 11-12 years now. If taking that hit meant an increase in players for the format I have the biggest affection with (Vintage obv) then all the better. I don't really care as long as there IS a chance to keep competing.

Anybody playing the " I've invested X amount of money and time in finding cards Y to Z, so they shouldn't reprint it now!" card (pun intended) should take a long hard thought  about having those cards to actually play or just stroke your own ego..  I have my collection for 2 things, I want to play, and sadly in Europe this means most of the time you can't use proxies, in the second place I like stroking my own ego enough to go after rare foils and beta stuff along with the fact I absolutely adore the old frames and artwork. But, first and foremost, I have all the stuff I have TO PLAY.


I don't expect to ever see the money I've invested back, if I do well that's nice, but If WoTC decided to pack it up next year (highly doubtfull but still) I'd lose everything anyway, which I'm fine with as it's a hobby...... If you don't want to risk losing such a huge amount of money, then don't buy that stuff. It's rather simple.

Very well articulated.

Me and my friends would really love to meet and play with more new T1 players, and we would really like to see that T1 grows and develops. If there is a chance to get new players interested, then by all means we are sold to whatever idea to get them to play T1. We are sad to see our cards stay in the binders unused, untouched. If that means there might be a dip on the value of our collections, so be it. With more players, then perhaps there might be real support from WotC as opposed to just 1 sanctioned T1 event per year, just in the USA. I wish I would be able to see in the future T1 World Championships held worldwide, just like the sweet 16 DCI Invitational event in the past, held around the world. More players, more support, more tournaments, more fun.

We do not see the virtue of WotC printing and selling 'official proxies' for a fixed price any slightest bit. What guarantee do players get that they might get more wizard actively sponsored, sanctioned T1 tournaments if they buy that 'official proxies'? Such 'official proxies' do not hold more value than a word 'Lotus', hastily scribbled on a piece of paper and pasted on a MtG Swamp. A proxy card is still a proxy, an euphemism for what essentially is the eternal truth; whatever terms one wants to use it is still and it will be forever a fake card. Either print real, official, playable cards usable in sanctioned T1 tournaments, or do not.

There are already other card companies that do sell proxies intended to be used in MtG T1. If players need proxies, they can simply scan, print out any cards they want themselves with excellent quality using any decent laser printers. They hardly need any 'official proxies' service from Wizards, they do not need to buy a 10$ a piece proxies.  What they actually want is to be able to own the real cards, to play with real cards, that they are allowed to use in any Wizard-sanctioned T1 tournaments.

We suggest perhaps Wizards might want to test the field a bit by awarding real, playable cards to top 9 of the annual T1 Championships to see what is the response first. It will be a tightly controlled, very limited prints, just print 9 cards for the top 9 as the prize for the Championships, and see how is the response from T1 players, if they are concerned with the possibility of negative response.

[Lemnear]

@ all those looking at powetr as an "investment"

There are many different kinds of investments. Stocks, bonds, GICs, mutual funds, money market securities, etc.... Very very few of them have a "guaranteed" value, and those that do generally are not winners in terms of Return on Investment. Buying power shoudl not be like buying Treasury Bonds or Bank-issued GIC's - they're like buying stock in Vintage.

Stocks, unlike many other securities, comes with additonal privilages: voting rights in the company, attendance at the annual shareholders meeting, and dividends. Similary, magic cards come with additonal privilages: the ability to build the "best" decks in a given format, the ability to attend Sanctioned events, and the potential to Top 8 (or 16, or 64, or whatever) and earn prizes.

Just an in the world of traditional investing, you can't have your cake and eat it too. The additional privilages that come with Stock also come with a risk: the risk of loss. Even blue chips can go down (I work for one of the top-rated banks in the World, yet if you had invested two years ago in our common stock and then sold last Fed, you woudl have lost over 60% of your money. The stock is back up now and you'd be running maybe a 3% loss, which would be gained back by this summer).

Investments are speculative: if you don;t have the stomach for the risk, get out of the invesment game.

aren't we some kind of shareholders? If WotC want to drive people away their profit suffers (plz spare me with things like "Eternal isn't making much profit for wiz". WotC descided to focus on T2 with their product design and sometimes drops something like Lodestone for their forgotten children) I'd wish they would ask the community about such topics than setting up a situation like this (No, Steve alone is not "the community) Would you buy any power right now? maybe with some cheaper reprints luring in the dark? Why should anyone? I can only imagine that some dudes setup some panic-sells because of this situation...

@tiki:
Giving away reprinted power as prices for official tournaments is a way to control the impact on the market and is something that i totally support as I said before. I simply find it disgusting how some guys call for massive reprints like vintage starters etc. so everyone can get as much power as he wants. That's Yu-Gi-Oh-Style there every damn expensive rare card is reprinted 3 sets later as a common ... I hear some guys running around my shop still crying about that

[meadbert]

I guess you didn't read the article. Stephen is advocating abolishing the reserved list and reprinting power.

I always read Steve's articles.  Most folks spend Sunday night dreading work on Monday.  I spend Sunday night eagerly anticipating Monday morning when I get to read Steve's article.

[Aace]

You pay this money because you love working / participating in your hobby of choice. Without ever expecting to get any kind of return value, the sneakers you buy will eventually tear up leading you to have invested 100+ $ on a product you now need to replace.

People get hung up on the fact that they expect to get some kind of money or stability from their investment in Magic, this is truly and utterly bullshit. Magic the Gathering IS a Collectible Trading Card Game, True... but it isn't a stock market, or a savings account, if you want to invest in something and not lose your money go buy stocks or put that money on a bank account. There are other things you can invest in as well (Art for example) that by their very nature are intended to never be recreated (because the artist who did them died or whatever). Magic wasn't created with the idea that certain cards would sell for ridiculous amounts of money at some point in time, nor with the idea to  support those cards as an "investment".

I beg to differ.
 
Anything with a monetary value can be an investment, especially those that are deemed as 'hobby'. I'm not sure where you get that "hobby = lose money" view point from, but that is simply untrue. Let's take a look at comics, a geeky hobby just like magic. You can argue that comics are meant to be read... but guess what, it's now a legitimate investment. Action Comic #1 can buy you a house. We no longer live in a world where hobby needs to lose you money, or that hobby is simply an abyss for your disposable income.
 
I'm forced to take your 'if you want an investment that won't lose you money, invest in stock or put it in a bank' as an indication that you really don't know much about investment. As many people here can attest, stock markets can crash, so can a bank. To say those are better investments than, say a set of beta duals, is pretty ridiculous.
 
In fact, your claim that Magic wasn't created with card value in mind is completely false. One of the most ingenious part about Richard Garfield's invention is that he combined card game (uncollectable) with trading cards (collectable). Without this element, magic would not be the game it is today. If you want proof, simply look at the reason why they created boarders in the first place. They made unlimited white boarder for the purpose of  distinguishing reprints from the original, and to retain the value of the original card. Sure, they had no idea the cards would later become this valuable, but to say they didn't have the value/collectability of cards in mind is certainly bogus.

People pay ridiculous amounts of money (Baneslayer Angel, Tarmogoyf, Reflecting Pool, Cryptic Command etc etc etc) to play standard without any realistic return value for them. Sure they "COULD" be the one lucky fellow out of those 300 (or in case of a GP 2200) people making it to first earning a fat check... but with 300-2200 people competing there's bound to be a lot of "losers" running around. If you're an idiot or just happen to have some other commitment or "miss the boat" and don't sell these cards in time before the rotation you lose A LOT of money. Do people complain? Probably. Do they still fork over a huge amount when the next Baneslayer / Goyf / Whatever comes around? Certainly. That's how magic was intended, that's how magic works and I see no reason why we the Eternal Community should complain about something that T2 and Extended players have long accepted as "the way it works".

You are correct, people who play T2 have to accept their cards losing value once they rotate. Thus, if you played T2, you'd realize that people sell their cards a month or two before standard rotation. This is how the format keeps afloat, people sell their cards before rotation and plays block decks until the next set is released. Additionally, they KNOW their cards will lose value upon purchasing them. Nobody expects to buy a set of M10 duals, and expect it to be hot after rotation. However, ask the people who fork over thousands of dollars on powers if they expected their cards to lose value. Part of the reason why people don't think their cards will lose value is because of the reserve list, which is wizards way of telling people their collection will not be rendered worthless.

But for the most part, Magic should be about playing a game, enjoying a hobby which, inevitably will cost you more money that you ever make on it.

It really doesn't matter what you think Magic should and should not be about. If you think magic should be about losing money, then Gunslinga would be the anti-christ. Fact of the matter is, Magic is different things to different people, you really shouldn't subject your narrow view on other people.

Anybody playing the " I've invested X amount of money and time in finding cards Y to Z, so they shouldn't reprint it now!" card (pun intended) should take a long hard thought  about having those cards to actually play or just stroke your own ego (Hey look I have X money and Y time to buy / search for this stuff, I must be awesome right ?!) I have my collection for 2 things, I want to play, and sadly in Europe this means most of the time you can't use proxies, in the second place I like stroking my own ego enough to go after rare foils and beta stuff along with the fact I absolutely adore the old frames and artwork. But, first and foremost, I have all the stuff I have TO PLAY.

I don't expect to ever see the money I've invested back, if I do well that's nice, but If WoTC decided to pack it up next year (highly doubtfull but still) I'd lose everything anyway, which I'm fine with as it's a hobby...... If you don't want to risk losing such a huge amount of money, then don't buy that stuff. It's rather simple.

Just because you are willing to have your collection turned to trash doesn't mean other people would like that. You might laugh at the guy who says his kid's collect tuition is in his cards, but it's true to some people. The thing about eternal is, a player can realistically play this hobby for years and then cash out for more than he put into. This is why some people play eternal. Not a lot of people would dump thousands on powers if you tell them their powers will be worthless in the future.
 
Bottom line, if you look at polls about the reserve list on any site, one thing is clear, we're talking about redistribution of wealth here. The have-nots advocate reprints since they have no monetary interest. The haves advocate no reprint. The Angelina Jolies (like Markse) advocate reprint to better the community. But redistributing wealth is not a good idea in real life, it also isn't good to magic. I believe Wizards will be forced to make a choice, and I believe the correct choice will be an unpopular one.

[dangerlinto]

Bottom line, if you look at polls about the reserve list on any site, one thing is clear, we're talking about redistribution of wealth here. The have-nots advocate reprints since they have no monetary interest. The haves advocate no reprint. The Angelina Jolies (like Markse) advocate reprint to better the community. But redistributing wealth is not a good idea in real life, it also isn't good to magic. I believe Wizards will be forced to make a choice, and I believe the correct choice will be an unpopular one.

I like this part, because it so completely ignores the fact that the real distribution of wealth going on will be converting secondary market value to primary market value.  That is, WoTC cashing in the items which they produced by converting their market value directly into their pocket books.

No matter how you cut it, eventually such a thing will happen. It makes too much sense.  As the producers of the goods, WoTCs best interests are to do so at the time when the value of those goods reach their pinnacle.  Much like a CEO divests him/herself of Stock options at the most opportune time - it doesn't mean the company is going under, it just means it's a good time to do it - you can't hold onto your stock options forever, or they are effectively worthless.

You gotta sell sometime.  It just seems like that time has come.

[Justin]

You gotta sell sometime.  It just seems like that time has come.

As a player since late 94/early 95, this is kind of sad. I have faith that Wizards won't go so far as to reprint power; I just can't see them shafting all of us who have made the "collectible" card game collectible.

My story is probably similar to a lot of long time players in that when I began playing magic proxies were unheard of. You'd see one card marked up as another at a kitchen table but certainly not in a tournament setting. You played only the cards you acquired. Naturally this would limit your deck choices, so you'd go ahead & play the most competitive build with what was left. In today's Vintage I suppose that deck would be dredge, which is highly competitive.

I don't recall complaining whenever I, armed with a budget zoo deck, sat across from a someone generally older than myself playing "the deck". Sometimes I'd steal wins, most of the time I wouldn't, but it made me want to "collect" all of these powerful cards. I did so at a pace that was reasonable for me; shouldn't everyone do so if they're inclined?

NASCAR isnt selling stock cars for pennies so everyone gets the chance to compete, the NBA isn't selling dirt-cheap franchises so everyone with a regular pick-up game can have a shot at the title. If you don't like the price of entry (which in the case of Dredge is relatively low) then play another format or enjoy a proxy tourney at your neighborhood card shop. I'm not sure when the argument to remove the collectibility from MTG began but I hope one of these days it ends. The fact that it is being entertained by Wizards seems counter-intuitive to what drives their sales.

I'll still play reprint or not, but I doubt I'd buy anymore cards. If Wizards isn't going stand behind the games value as a collectible than I certainly won't. Ill have friends over the house for 60-proxy tourneys. Printers can produce amazing quality these days.

[hyperchord24]

While others have said that owning Magic cards is not an investment, I think paying for anything is an investment.  That much is just by definition.  However, if you're like me and bought Strategic Planning while the value was at it's highest and sold it when it lost popularity, I started to see it as money lost = cost of hobby.  Of course, when I sell off my foil Entomb, that will have been an investment.

It's a hobby and an investment.  The way I see it, if I don't make money when I sell off my cards, the difference will be the cost to play and enjoy myself.  For example, if I spent $3000 on my cards and sell them for $2500, there's a $500 loss (which of course sucks), but to play the game for 10 years with those awesome cards, it cost me $500.  Is that naive?

That said, if I cared about the format, then I should be okay with a price drop in my cards if it came with more participants in the format.  I guess I have a question to ask myself.  If I suspect Wizards may be  reprinting a lot of their best cards, do I sell off and get out, or do I stick with the format?

[honestabe]

I think the most elegant solution would be to Reprint duals, and pretty much all the cards that have head a steady value, and have recently shot up in value.  Basically, most of the Legacy Staples.  Then Either allow proxies in sanctioned vintage or Legalize Collector's edition.  There isn't enough demand for a full on reprint of power

[TheWhiteDragon]

I understand how the wishes of the community is to increase Vintage as a largely played format with a following comparable to Standard.  I completely disagree that reprints will accomplish this.  If WotC gives no more support than as is current to Type 1, the format will stay as is.  I live in an area far from Richmond, Indianapolis, New England, etc., and there are no tournaments for Vintage around here.  Several of the players in the area own power.  Anybody can play with proxies.  Yet nothing is sanctioned and nothing is supported by WotC in the old formats...therefore nothing beyond casual playing or occassional local shop tourneys for store credit happen for Vintage.  When asked why the Standard player doesn't play Vintage, they look at their schedule of drafts, FNM, Block, and bi-weekly tournaments and ask "why?"  My reply of "because you can afford/get the Vintage cards now," (should they reprint) would hardly be convincing.

Also, as a guy that owns all the power and everything else for Vintage, I would greatly fear reprints.  My collection is nearly complete, but almost exclusively Unlimited.  I don't care for pimp...I only care for owning the card and being able to read it (no BB, foil, and all English).  I agree that new foil P9 MAY (strongly emphasized MAY) not drive down the price of pimp power, but it will more than likely drive down the price of un-pimp older cards.  If you want pimp, you will probably want the minty BB beta P9 and not a foily reprint (then again maybe you like foils), but regardless you won't want Unlimited.  If you are going for pimp, you get the pimpest.  If you don't care about pimp, you get the cheapest.  Where does that leave my unlimited, non-asian, non-foily collection?  I know full well (and many posts are from those not owning power) that most people don't give a rat's a$$ if power goes up, down, sideways, or diagonal in price...but I do.  People that don't own stock in IBM wouldn't care if it took a 40% hit or gain tomorrow, but for a guy with a 1000 shares...it makes a gigantic difference.

[Marske]

I know full well (and many posts are from those not owning power) that most people don't give a rat's a$$ if power goes up, down, sideways, or diagonal in price...but I do.  People that don't own stock in IBM wouldn't care if it took a 40% hit or gain tomorrow, but for a guy with a 1000 shares...it makes a gigantic difference.

Sorry to just grab a small piece out of your post to reply, but after I got into this discussion yesterday I received a barrage of messages from a lot of people regarding my view and everybody basically says the same thing. Let me set the record straight.

MAGIC ISN'T STOCK !

It's Called: Magic :The Gathering a Trading Card GAME

If you want an investment go by Hasbro Stocks...... I hear they make a wicked card game (Magic) that is selling like crazy.

You simply cannot compare A GAME to stocks, or a serious investment plan.

Anything with a monetary value can be an investment, especially those that are deemed as 'hobby'. I'm not sure where you get that "hobby = lose money" view point from, but that is simply untrue. Let's take a look at comics, a geeky hobby just like magic. You can argue that comics are meant to be read... but guess what, it's now a legitimate investment. Action Comic #1 can buy you a house. We no longer live in a world where hobby needs to lose you money, or that hobby is simply an abyss for your disposable income.

Most of the time, having a hobby is a luxoury... it's something you do because it makes you feel happy, fills a gap in your life or whatever. The second you start looking at it as being an investment or a way to have some money put aside for a rainy day (how idiotic it is) it's not a hobby anymore. It becomes an investment plan (and a bad one at that) People aquire Action Comic #1 because they are comic book fans, not because they think "Hey let me buy this so I can always sell it when I need the cash back!" that makes no sense at all, put the money in a bank account and gain some interest (which might or might not be as big as the value the book might grab you once sold over a couple of years but the risk is lower)
 

I'm forced to take your 'if you want an investment that won't lose you money, invest in stock or put it in a bank' as an indication that you really don't know much about investment. As many people here can attest, stock markets can crash, so can a bank. To say those are better investments than, say a set of beta duals, is pretty ridiculous.

Seriously? Were are you living? Probably a place further from the normal world then Antartica.... Magic cards are a worse investment then just putting your money on a bank account. Now we can argue about the fact that they "can" crash (which has obviously been proven true) but, for the record, everything can go to hell. Best roll up in a ball and die right now if you have such a world view. Fact of the matter is, banks are designed to keep your money safe, they have rules, interest, people monitoring it. You even have guarantee's that you can get your money back (or at least a large sum of it) if the bank does indeed fall (google Icesave and Holland to see what I mean). Magic cards have nothing but the price we as a the secondary market give them. There's no guarantee that the cards will keep their value indefinitely (look at the cost for a Shivan dragon in 1993 and a shivan dragon in 2010) nor is it a realistical demand that WoTC consider the secondary market as they make ZERO money out of it.
 

In fact, your claim that Magic wasn't created with card value in mind is completely false. One of the most ingenious part about Richard Garfield's invention is that he combined card game (uncollectable) with trading cards (collectable). Without this element, magic would not be the game it is today. If you want proof, simply look at the reason why they created boarders in the first place. They made unlimited white boarder for the purpose of  distinguishing reprints from the original, and to retain the value of the original card. Sure, they had no idea the cards would later become this valuable, but to say they didn't have the value/collectability of cards in mind is certainly bogus.

Sure they did, but in another way then it has grown now.

You are correct, people who play T2 have to accept their cards losing value once they rotate. Thus, if you played T2, you'd realize that people sell their cards a month or two before standard rotation. This is how the format keeps afloat, people sell their cards before rotation and plays block decks until the next set is released. Additionally, they KNOW their cards will lose value upon purchasing them. Nobody expects to buy a set of M10 duals, and expect it to be hot after rotation. However, ask the people who fork over thousands of dollars on powers if they expected their cards to lose value. Part of the reason why people don't think their cards will lose value is because of the reserve list, which is wizards way of telling people their collection will not be rendered worthless.

What makes a 40 dollar Underground Sea more "priceless" and "Collectable" that it needs protection more then a 40 dollar Baneslayer Angel? Don't you think the people that invested 120 Dollars in a playset of Angels did so with the same set of mind? Oh no, according to you they invested in it and expected to lose money on them as soon as they rotated out (or get rid of them before they did not losing money making somebody else lose money on it) It's utter bullshit to think that the "older" cards are collectable and thusly need protection and not have the same thing regarding newer cards on the same dollar level. It's a complete paradox to have the ability to reprint 40 Dollar Baneslayer's and Tarmogoyf's but NOT reprint 40 dollar duals, just because they are older and people have "invested" in them. So you're basically saying the newer cards aren't collectable? or not AS collectable as the older ones? So when does a Magic: the Gathering card become Collectable?

It really doesn't matter what you think Magic should and should not be about. If you think magic should be about losing money, then Gunslinga would be the anti-christ. Fact of the matter is, Magic is different things to different people, you really shouldn't subject your narrow view on other people.

I'm sorry that you feel this way, I just gave my personal opinion as everybody has done in this thread, the fact that you don't care for my point of view doesn't mean a thing to me. Magic isn't about losing money, which isn't what I said, Magic, is a game first and formost (and imho the most awesome game ever) It's a hobby and a way of life as most "addicts" claim the game had tremendous impact on their lives in general. Seeing Magic for what it really is (a pastime, a game) isn't "narrow" minded. It's realistic, sure some people earn money playing games, but to make it into something that it's not (an investment plan) is just idiotic.

Just because you are willing to have your collection turned to trash doesn't mean other people would like that. You might laugh at the guy who says his kid's collect tuition is in his cards, but it's true to some people.

My collection will never be turned into trash no matter what the monetary value becomes, as my collection is build to allow me to play this game, enjoy epic matches, hang with friends. If you're stupid enough to put your kids tuition in cards then by all means do so, but don't expect the people that created M:TG to help you out with making money on your "investment" or keeping it in check for you.

The thing about eternal is, a player can realistically play this hobby for years and then cash out for more than he put into. This is why some people play eternal. Not a lot of people would dump thousands on powers if you tell them their powers will be worthless in the future.

The entire notion you're putting forward here is the kind of attitude and view of Vintage (and in a broader view Eternal) that I utterly despise with a passion. You should play enternal because you enjoy doing so, the fact that it can earn you a sweet buck would you decide to leave the game should be secondary.
 

Bottom line, if you look at polls about the reserve list on any site, one thing is clear, we're talking about redistribution of wealth here. The have-nots advocate reprints since they have no monetary interest. The haves advocate no reprint. The Angelina Jolies (like Markse) advocate reprint to better the community. But redistributing wealth is not a good idea in real life, it also isn't good to magic. I believe Wizards will be forced to make a choice, and I believe the correct choice will be an unpopular one.

This is elitist beyond reproach and exactly the kind of attitude Vintage can do without.

[2nd_lawl]

Wizards doesn’t have to remove the reserve list. They already reprint reserve list cards as judge foils, and in the upcoming Duel Decks and FTV sets. All of the cards on the reserve list that are both valuable and see play in legacy are basically unprintable in “regular” sets anyway:

Here is a list of all the LEGACY PLAYABLE, reserved List cards that are worth more than 20 dollars:

Dual Lands
Diamond Valley
The Abyss
Chains of Mephistopheles
Moat
Nether Void
Tabernacle
Lion's Eye Diamond
Phyrexian Dreadnaught
Mox Diamond
City of traitors

Thats it.  That is every legacy Playable that is both reserved, and worth 20 Dollars or more (according to star city prices).  Most of these cards would Never see Print in a modern set for reasons OTHER than the reserved list anyway.  Lets start with the easy ones:

LED, Mox Diamond, City of Traitors:  R&D know better than to put this caliber of mana acceleration in "modern" magic sets, all of them are on the high side of broken for what is considered acceptable for standard.

Chains of Mephestopeles: One of the most confusing cards ever printed, and it sees close to no legacy play anyway, and if it does only as a sideboard card. We wouldn't ever see this card again, reserve list or no.

The Abyss, Moat, Tabernacle:  All of these are probably overpowered, but worse than that they go against R&D's vision of magic being a creature centric game, these are not the kinds of cards that would play nicely with modern formats.

Nether Void: One of the most "unfun" cards ever, and Im not even sure if any legacy decks even play it.  Also its an Enchant World, which are no longer part of the game, Would Never be Reprinted.

Diamond Valley: Sees marginal legacy play thanks to the "life" combo deck.  Of all the cards on this list it is probably the least overpowered, but it still it has a few strikes against it, including the fact that it is a Land that doesn't tap for mana.  If the reserved List were to go away, this is the high-dollar legacy playable that would be most vulnerable for reprinting in a "real" set.

Dual Lands:  Simply too good for standard/extended, there is no danger of these being reprinted in a "regular set"

So now that we have established that the Reserved List isn't really accomplishing anything for legacy in terms of preventing reprints, since everything on the list is either:
1) Unplayable(or banned)
2) Less than 20 Dollars and therefore widely available
3) Unfit for reprint anyway(for various reasons illustrated above)with the possible exception of a single card in a single marginal combo deck


 Duals will never be standard legal, which basically means that if wizards wants to put more duals in circulation it will either be through Boxed sets, Tournament Prizes (like GP promos, or judge foils), or through special “insert” cards like the Hidden Treasures promotion. All of these methods lend themselves to special foil versions.

To those who believe that wizards is "violating your trust":  Why is it that you believe in the sanctity of wizards promise when they already have violated it? Most of the cards on the reserve list - all of the commons and uncommons, have already been removed. Many of the rares have ALREADY been reprinted as judge foils, so why would anyone even think that Wizards' promise means anything?

Excuse me for being cynical but why is it that you care so deeply about wizard’s promise WHEN IT HAS ALREADY BEEN BROKEN Both in a de-facto way(Judge foils, upcoming FTV and DDs) and in a de-jure way (the physical removing of every common and uncommon off the list)? It seems to me like you care more about the value of your own collection more than the health of the game.

So what does the reserve list actually DO?  Well all it is really doing is preventing wizards from reprinting a bunch of bad cards in modern sets.  It isn't really "protecting the value" of any of the unplayed cards, because their value is driven entirely by their collectability anyway.  Juzam Djinn is worth 125 Dollars, and it is stone unplayable, If it were reprinted tomorrow there is no logical reason to think it would go down- It sees 0 play, and is just a collectors item and having new versions does not make the old versions less rare.  And if it DID see play in standard, or block or whatever, the original would likely go up, because a couple of guys who really want to pimp out their standard decks have a reason to try and get some AN Juzam.  Now most of these cards are unprintable in a "regular" set for other reasons: Underpowered/Unexciting (most of the Legends set for example), Confusing Rules-Wise, Inappropriate Flavor, Dead Mechanics(enchant world, banding, flanking), but probably some of them at least should be options for future sets.  This is all that is REALLY at stake, just a bunch of loose old cards being available as options for reprints, WOTC could print FTV: Duals tomorrow without violating the Reprint Policy.

Whatever they could possibly want to do with duals: not reprint them at all, make the judge foils, make them FTV foils, make them Dual Deck or Premium Deck Series foils, Make them Special foil insert's ala hidden treasures, THEY CAN DO IT UNDER THE CURRENT POLICY.

[i_set_fire]

Just because you are willing to have your collection turned to trash doesn't mean other people would like that. You might laugh at the guy who says his kid's collect tuition is in his cards, but it's true to some people.

My collection will never be turned into trash no matter what the monetary value becomes, as my collection is build to allow me to play this game, enjoy epic matches, hang with friends. If you're stupid enough to put your kids tuition in cards then by all means do so, but don't expect the people that created M:TG to help you out with making money on your "investment" or keeping it in check for you.

The thing about eternal is, a player can realistically play this hobby for years and then cash out for more than he put into. This is why some people play eternal. Not a lot of people would dump thousands on powers if you tell them their powers will be worthless in the future.

The entire notion you're putting forward here is the kind of attitude and view of Vintage (and in a broader view Eternal) that I utterly despise with a passion. You should play enternal because you enjoy doing so, the fact that it can earn you a sweet buck would you decide to leave the game should be secondary.
 

Bottom line, if you look at polls about the reserve list on any site, one thing is clear, we're talking about redistribution of wealth here. The have-nots advocate reprints since they have no monetary interest. The haves advocate no reprint. The Angelina Jolies (like Markse) advocate reprint to better the community. But redistributing wealth is not a good idea in real life, it also isn't good to magic. I believe Wizards will be forced to make a choice, and I believe the correct choice will be an unpopular one.

This is elitist beyond reproach and exactly the kind of attitude Vintage can do without.

all right, enough with the comments about me saying that i plan to sell my collection to pay for my kids college someday.  i dont know if exaggeration to prove a point is somehow lost on the vast majority of TMD readers (or at least posters), but it was not meant literally.  i dont even have kids yet.
i am a grad student working as a social worker until i graduate, i am not a banker or lawyer or some other wealthy person who is fine with losing out on the money spent to play T1.  i am fine with paying X$ to play T1 because i enjoy it and it is a hobby and hobbies cost money.  i am not fine with arrogant people who think that they are right, refuse to listen to others' opinions, and think because they can afford to lose money on their cards that everyone else can.  i spent money buying power and staples so i can play vintage and justified the expense with the belief i can sell the cards and get at least most of my money back. 

reprints will not grow vintage in the long run.  creating interest and teaching potential new players will grow vintage. 

finally, as a new person to modern vintage i can let you in on a little secret.  to grow and retain T1 players dont shoot down their opinions and publicly call them stupid.  it doesnt help the discussion or the format.

[Killane]

Just because you are willing to have your collection turned to trash doesn't mean other people would like that. You might laugh at the guy who says his kid's collect tuition is in his cards, but it's true to some people.

My collection will never be turned into trash no matter what the monetary value becomes, as my collection is build to allow me to play this game, enjoy epic matches, hang with friends. If you're stupid enough to put your kids tuition in cards then by all means do so, but don't expect the people that created M:TG to help you out with making money on your "investment" or keeping it in check for you.

The thing about eternal is, a player can realistically play this hobby for years and then cash out for more than he put into. This is why some people play eternal. Not a lot of people would dump thousands on powers if you tell them their powers will be worthless in the future.

The entire notion you're putting forward here is the kind of attitude and view of Vintage (and in a broader view Eternal) that I utterly despise with a passion. You should play enternal because you enjoy doing so, the fact that it can earn you a sweet buck would you decide to leave the game should be secondary.
 

Bottom line, if you look at polls about the reserve list on any site, one thing is clear, we're talking about redistribution of wealth here. The have-nots advocate reprints since they have no monetary interest. The haves advocate no reprint. The Angelina Jolies (like Markse) advocate reprint to better the community. But redistributing wealth is not a good idea in real life, it also isn't good to magic. I believe Wizards will be forced to make a choice, and I believe the correct choice will be an unpopular one.

This is elitist beyond reproach and exactly the kind of attitude Vintage can do without.

all right, enough with the comments about me saying that i plan to sell my collection to pay for my kids college someday.  i dont know if exaggeration to prove a point is somehow lost on the vast majority of TMD readers (or at least posters), but it was not meant literally.  i dont even have kids yet.
i am a grad student working as a social worker until i graduate, i am not a banker or lawyer or some other wealthy person who is fine with losing out on the money spent to play T1.  i am fine with paying X$ to play T1 because i enjoy it and it is a hobby and hobbies cost money.  i am not fine with arrogant people who think that they are right, refuse to listen to others' opinions, and think because they can afford to lose money on their cards that everyone else can.  i spent money buying power and staples so i can play vintage and justified the expense with the belief i can sell the cards and get at least most of my money back.  

reprints will not grow vintage in the long run.  creating interest and teaching potential new players will grow vintage.  

finally, as a new person to modern vintage i can let you in on a little secret.  to grow and retain T1 players dont shoot down their opinions and publicly call them stupid.  it doesnt help the discussion or the format.

Good point, however if you're goign to illustrate your point with an exagguration, make sure you make it clear that it is an exagurration.

I would like to once again point out that looking at Power as an Investment is fine, but you have to remember that the value of investments Fluctuates - it does not go up constantly. If it did, we would all be millionaires just by investing in stocks. There's a reason people go to school and get diplomas, degrees, and certifications to advise on investments - soemtimes, you loose money on them. Tough turkey.

The idea that the current incarnation of WoTC as owned by Hasboro and staffed by a 100% different contingent of professional should be bound by a non-contractual promise made by the former staff under the former owners 15 years ago is absurd. It's like saying that Obama should be obliged to cut corporate taxes because George Bush promised to do so. Not GW, but George HW Bush. That's how silly it is.

The fact is, under the "current" policy, WOTC would be 100% within their rights to send every DCI member 4 x Foil Textless Black Lotus as a thank you. It's not the policy that "protects" your invesment - only the good sense of WTOC employees- so why have a useless policy that just cloauds the issue?

[Marske]

all right, enough with the comments about me saying that i plan to sell my collection to pay for my kids college someday.  i dont know if exaggeration to prove a point is somehow lost on the vast majority of TMD readers (or at least posters), but it was not meant literally.  i dont even have kids yet.

I had no idea this was referring to you, I assumed it was an example.

i am a grad student working as a social worker until i graduate, i am not a banker or lawyer or some other wealthy person who is fine with losing out on the money spent to play T1.  i am fine with paying X$ to play T1 because i enjoy it and it is a hobby and hobbies cost money.  i am not fine with arrogant people who think that they are right, refuse to listen to others' opinions, and think because they can afford to lose money on their cards that everyone else can.

I never claimed to be fine, I just claimed to understand the risk involved. It's very simple, if you cannot spare the money you could potentially lose by "investing" in cardboard then don't do it. I currently assume every penny I put into magic is lost to me, if I cannot spare it I don't spend it. Cardboard simply isn't the most stable investment one could make and to assume WoTC has some sort of obligation to protect your investment is just weird. It's a company that makes games, not handles investments.

i spent money buying power and staples so i can play vintage and justified the expense with the belief i can sell the cards and get at least most of my money back.

This is not how most hobbies work.... you spent money on a pear of sneakers to play basketball and they get worn out, your initial investment will be gone, same as protective gear (football) or the actuall ball himself, or fishing rods or.... I can go on and on. I just personally find this kind of view weird. You don't start complaining when Nike puts an older version of the Air Max back into the market making your old ones (Which actually do cost some money in certain circles) dip in value, you're glad you can now wear a new pair and get to play more again.

reprints will not grow vintage in the long run.  creating interest and teaching potential new players will grow vintage.  

Agreed, I've been advocating this as well. Reprints will however sustain an increase in demand.

finally, as a new person to modern vintage i can let you in on a little secret.  to grow and retain T1 players dont shoot down their opinions and publicly call them stupid.  it doesnt help the discussion or the format.

First we're not discussing the format here, we're talking about something entirely different which spans Magic entirely. Also on another note, It's sad that you mistake me trying to explain something with clear logic as arrogant. Most reactions on this subject given by players are driven by emotions and feelings regarding older cards, which just isn't how you should look at this imho. I've also always had the belief that I was a humble person.... others that have met me can either confirm or deny this better then me obviously. But to call me arrogant as a self acclaimed "New player" isn't a great way of stepping into the format either. It's not a bad thing to "kick the established" order, but you might just want to try to listen to what they are saying as they do have some form of experience which put them on top in the first place.

@Killane,
Not the first time we are in total agreement, nor do I suspect it to be the last. You've voiced my opinion in another way but we're on the same page.

[i_set_fire]

finally, as a new person to modern vintage i can let you in on a little secret.  to grow and retain T1 players dont shoot down their opinions and publicly call them stupid.  it doesnt help the discussion or the format.

First we're not discussing the format here, we're talking about something entirely different which spans Magic entirely. Also on another note, It's sad that you mistake me trying to explain something with clear logic as arrogant. Most reactions on this subject given by players are driven by emotions and feelings regarding older cards, which just isn't how you should look at this imho. I've also always had the belief that I was a humble person.... others that have met me can either confirm or deny this better then me obviously. But to call me arrogant as a self acclaimed "New player" isn't a great way of stepping into the format either. It's not a bad thing to "kick the established" order, but you might just want to try to listen to what they are saying as they do have some form of experience which put them on top in the first place.

@Killane,
Not the first time we are in total agreement, nor do I suspect it to be the last. You've voiced my opinion in another way but we're on the same page.

i do not know you personally, so i apologize if i came off abrasive.  my choice of words was wrong.  people get into the format for various reasons and have a desire to learn from more experienced players.  however, if "new people" get ridiculed (i.e. posts mocked) by the "experienced players" the "new player" will naturally be less likely to ask for guidance and learn from the "experienced players". 

btw, i agree with killane's last post, as well. 

[darkh0rse]

I would think if anything Wizards should re-print the duals, from there we would have a good idea of what happens to the value of the cards with having very small (at least in comparrison to power) price difference to affect the collectors.  Do it as a boxed set so it won't see Standard Play, and then look at the data after 12-18 months to see if first it increased Legacy participation, and second what effect it had on the price of Revised and older Duals.

My .02