[T4] Rise of the Eldrazi Spoiler Discuss

[Wagner]

Conquering Manticore --> Meh. Replaces a sorcery speed control magic, but the only one I run is my pretty promo Mind Control. Definitely wants haste. *Opens drawer for sharpie*

Momentous Fall --> WOWWIE!!! Busted end-o-turn special. Must be answered somehow. (Thank you Bane of the Living!)

[Edit] thought about it again, don't think bane does the job b/c they sac the dude as part of the cost

Bane's ability uses the stack just like any removal like Terror or Swords. And yes, this is irrelevant since it's part of the cost.

[Farandar]

Hi there.
A better clone of Kuro, Pitlord.
I will play both since Kuro is Grozoth-targetable and that it made me win last game (heart has its reason reason doesn't have...)

This begins to have a lot of card to include in T4 stacks !

[Wagner]

Eldrazi Conscription
   8
Tribal Enchantment - Eldrazi Aura    Rare
Enchant creature
Enchanted creature gets +10/+10 and has trample and annihilator 2.
Illus. Jaime Jones   

Definitively has a spot, yeah yeah, you get get 2-for-1, but if not, you probably kill in one blow.

Echo Mage
   1uu
Creature - Human Wizard    Rare
Level up 1{U}
[Level 2-3] , : Copy target instant or sorcery spell. You may choose new targets for the copy. (2/4)
[Level 4+] , : Copy target instant or sorcery spell twice. You may choose new targets for the copies. (2/5)
Illus. Matt Stewart #64/248   2/3

Sounds funny enough, but it needs to stay alive one turn, and people won't allow that.


I love the Pestilence dude, but it will be a pain to deal with. It kills everyone that has less life than you pretty fast, then you gain life (if you play with this rule when you kill players) to kill other players, will definitively make you the main target.

[Metamind]

Transcendent Master   1ww
Creature - Human Cleric Avatar    Mythic Rare
Level up 1
[Level 6-11] Lifelink (6/6)
[Level 12+] Lifelink
Transcendent Master is indestructible. (9/9)
3/3

sweet

[Lysyc12]

Cast Through Time     
Enchantment

Instant and Sorcery spells you control have rebound.


Can I get a "Hell's yeah"?

[Farandar]

Transcendant master is "only" a 9/9 indestructible lifelink thing, but with a really slow tempo : you cast it, and then you level it up at sorcery speed. Hence you can have it countered or killed/destroyed before it becomes really revelant.

Cast Through Time is awfully nice. My stack will include it, along with Eye of the Storm, Hive mind, Maelstrom Nexus. I want to see how the game runs with four things on the battlefield !!!

[Godder]

You can level up as many times in one turn as you like, so all level-up creatures are effectively whatever their best form is. Sure, they can be killed in response to putting a counter on, but worrying about creature removal in T4 seems kinda pointless, really.

[Farandar]

Pointless ? What do you mean ?
My T4 stack is quite high in terms of power ranks. I have a really big list of instant creature removals, either as card of their own (Putrify and the like) or as ability (what do you do with Azorius Guildmage and a level up guy ?). So being "able" to loose my 3/3 nothing at instant speed is a real parameter for my creatures list.

I remember what Mastriano counsels about creatures :

For non-uitility creatures:
1. Must be able to protect itself
2. Needs to be significantly big
3. Evasion ability is a plus

SO a creature like Autochron Wurn is usually bad because it doesnt protect itself and doesnt have utility value.  For example: I'd say that Autochron wurm is too easily killed to be very good, while something like Inkwell Leviathan which is untargetable is much better.  A creature that's really big could possibly be above these rules, but such a creature doesnt exist in my opinion.

For Utility Creatures:
1. Ability needs to be useable immediatly
2. If it can't be used immediatly, creature should be able to protect itself
3. if it cant be used immediatly and cant protect itself, then the abilty better be damn good, or the creature should be a serviceable attacker.

These rules worked fine so far for my own gameplay, group and stack(s). For me, there's a window wide enough to let people rush in order to break the first rule about Cleric guy protecting itself. Question of taste, anyway, I guess.

[Wagner]

You can level up as many times in one turn as you like, so all level-up creatures are effectively whatever their best form is. Sure, they can be killed in response to putting a counter on, but worrying about creature removal in T4 seems kinda pointless, really.

Agree with this, is there really removal that will get rid of a 3/3 body but that WON'T get rid of a 9/9? There must be very little, and gaining 9 lives a turn is actually pretty good in this format. Definitively test worthy.

[Farandar]

Problem is, if you allow it to become 9/9 it also becomes indestructible. And THAT narrows the spectrum of answers to bounces, [edit :]exiles[/edit] and sacrifices. So yes, it will be killed way before it gets its big adamantium body. I'd do it, anyway.

[spcleddy]

T Master is fine. Dies to removal, but seriously, how much spot removal are you guys running anyway?!

Eye of the Storm just gave me a headache. It was cute for a while, but couldn't justify keeping it in long-term. Cast Through Time is simple and one-sided and ripe for abuse.

Autochthon Wurm is just a big dumb fatty. And if you don't play him in T4, he'll sit in a box and collect dust. Play him, he's fine. Also has great synergy with Riddle of Lightning/Parallectric Feedback/etc.

[Farandar]

T Master is fine. Dies to removal, but seriously, how much spot removal are you guys running anyway?!

Eye of the Storm just gave me a headache. It was cute for a while, but couldn't justify keeping it in long-term. Cast Through Time is simple and one-sided and ripe for abuse.

Autochthon Wurm is just a big dumb fatty. And if you don't play him in T4, he'll sit in a box and collect dust. Play him, he's fine. Also has great synergy with Riddle of Lightning/Parallectric Feedback/etc.

I do play enough spot removal for make it matters to me/my taste I just looked : 36 cards over the 357 in my stacks are able to deal with at instant speed. That's just 10%. Without counting instant wrathes (at least 2 from memory), counters and blasts (these last are listed apart from removal for historical reasons but could of course be in removal). Sounds like a lost spell in way too many situations for me to make it.

Autochton wurm is just "not enough" in my stack. I already have Draco as it's a dragon (scion of the ur-dragon, Kartthus, Imperial hellkite), hence a flyer, a colorless creature (Eye of the ugin) and it has a big casting cost (Kaboom, or feedback as you said). It's one of my weaker creature cards nonetheless. Autchton wurm is even below that - and by the way, I don't have one anymore, since it found a buyer (you don't imagine what people can buy).

But I don't want to prove anyone wrong or right : just explaining how and why I made these decisions. T4 is fun for all : it's up to you to decide which fun you prefer

[Godder]

Spot removal in type 4 isn't pointless - it's pointless worrying about whether or not creatures die to spot removal. Balanced stacks should have answers to creatures, and if a stack runs removal, there have to be things for that removal to remove, or you're wasting spots in your stack with dead cards. A type 4 stack is a full environment, not a multiplayer deck tuned for a particular metagame.

[Lysyc12]

The hits just keep a comin'

Not Of This World  
Tribal Instant - Eldrazi  
Counter target spell or ability that targets a permanent you control.
Not Of This World costs  less to cast if it targets a spell or ability that targets a creature you control with power 7 or greater.

If you play the ACC rule, this is a free counter for protecting a fatty.  When not free, it's a worse Hindering Light (which doesn't cut it in my stack), but I still think the potential to be free makes it worth it.  Quick rules question:  Will this counter a counterspell that targets a fatty still on the stack?  My guess is no.

[Farandar]

Since Not of this world target something targeting a creature and not a creature card or spell, no, it won't counter a counter targeting your Eldrazi spell

Another masticore like :
Grows big, kills big

There's a bad sorcery speed wrath where you have to reveal another card to inflict that revealed card casting cost to every creature... not that tremendous.

[Metamind]

I like Drana, she's a good Vamipric Dragon like creature. Killing regenerators, indestructibles and Combat Medic while attacking for at least 7 flying damage is quite hot.

Hand of Emrakul  9
Creature - Eldrazi    Common
You may sacrifice four Eldrazi Spawn rather than pay Hand of Emrakul's mana cost.
Annihilator 1
7/7

Weakest eldrazi so far. This might not make the cut.

Spawnsire of Ulamog  10
Creature - Eldrazi    Rare
Annihilator 1
4: Put two 0/1 colorless Eldrazi Spawn tokens onto the battlefield. They have "Sacrifice this creature: Add 1 to your mana pool."
20: Cast any number of Eldrazi cards you own from outside the game without paying their mana costs.
Illus. Izzy #11/248   7/11

Infinite chump-blockers for the rescue. How many ways are in your stack to abuse infinite 0/1 creatures? Anyway this will make the cut.

[Farandar]

Soooooo....

Here are the cards I'd like to test/add to my stack.

Spawnsire of ulamog : its abilities made him a nice defender-generator, and a big guy interesting enough.
Drana, Kalastria Bloodchief : like the card, the ability, very balanced.
Cast through time : Love this enchant'.
Momentous fall : Instant, Gain life, draw cards ! NICE
1 Hellcarver demon : A lot of funny possibilities and a big flying body
1 Artisan of kozilek : At least a reanimate, at best a reaminate plus big body
1 Ulamog the infinite gyre : the weakest of the daddydrazi, what to complain
1 All is dust : one of the best wrath since induces sacrifice
1 deathless angel : Love it
1 Lighthouse chronologist : the only good level up for me, its effect being so insane that it is worth a try
1 Emrakul the aeons torn : graou !!!!
1 Kozilek the butcher of truths : Draw 4 on cast, everything else is just bonus, and what a bonus

Don't know yet :
Conquering manticore : nice but won't rush to have one
Eldrazi conscription : so stupid, but if it connects...
Pestilence demon : problem is, it's symetric, and I have bad experience with symetric loss of life

Edit :
Here is a new one I want in. Small body, but ugly ability :

Linvala, Guardian of Silence 2WW
Legendary Creature – Angel
Flying
Activated Abilities of creatures your opponents control cannot be activated.
3/4

[Wagner]

Since Not of this world target something targeting a creature and not a creature card or spell, no, it won't counter a counter targeting your Eldrazi spell

Another masticore like :
Grows big, kills big

There's a bad sorcery speed wrath where you have to reveal another card to inflict that revealed card casting cost to every creature... not that tremendous.

Good board clearer, but she is technically a one shot kill if there is any other creature on the field, unlimited pump effects are usually a no-no.

[Rubik_3x3x3]

There's a bad sorcery speed wrath where you have to reveal another card to inflict that revealed card casting cost to every creature... not that tremendous.

It's actually a sorcery Plague Wind everyone. It is a bit narrow in its use, due to the possibility of not having a high costing creature in your hand, but I think it's a powerful effect worth trying.

Basically all the Eldrazi are either really good or worth considering.

Transcendent Master should be good, just because it has a moment of vulnerability before it becomes a lifelinking DSC doesn't mean it isn't playable. Echo Mage, however, will be too slow. It needs to be in play for a turn, and it's really small. Something that won't be held back by its size will be Lighthouse Chronologist, his effect is game winning with any amount of backup.

Drana is a firebreather, as stated in the last post, I'm not sure how so many people overlooked this. I, for one, won't use it. If you run firebreathers, it's one of the best. Pestilence Demon is also able of killing anyone with less life than you, so that's probably not that fun.

Two new ones I'm excited for are Support Revenge and Suffer the Past. Support Revenge is a lot like Sway of the Stars, which is always fun to see hit the table, no one tends to counter it in my playgroup. This might not be as good because it doesn't cause you to draw cards like Sway does. Suffer the Past I'm super excited for because my group doesn't play any infinite effects with the exception of a 0/1 firebreather. Suffer the Past is capable of a one hit kill, but has a big limitation on it. Seems like a lot of fun.

Explosive Revelation might be just questionable enough to almost always resolve, but it replaces itself, so it should be useful despite the pathetic sorcery speed. Plus, everyone's average converted cost is probably going up with the addition of the Eldrazi.

Another one that MIGHT be good, or at least interesting, is Surreal Memoir.  It's usually a 2 for 1, so that's useful. The random return seems bad, but drawing 2 cards is random, too.

I didn't discuss anything people already seemed certain about, I just wanted to toss some new ideas out there. Hope I didn't miss any goodies, but I wanted to be sure the thread stayed active.

[Farandar]

About :
Disaster Radius
   5rr
Sorcery    Rare
As an additional cost to play Disaster Radius, reveal a creature card from your hand.
Disaster Radius deals X damage to each creature your opponents control, where X is the revealed card's converted mana cost.

It can be very powerful indeed, but can be very dead if you have no (creature) card in hand, or without a high enough mana cost. That's again, to my own taste, a big leak for the card.

Drana is actually out of my "get one of this crap" list. Sorry I missed the "no-limit" thing.
Pestilence Demon is on my "If I get one I'll try it" list, but I won't rush for one.

I like Suffer the past and Support revenge. I had questions about Suffer's wording, but it's fine since you can't drain more than the number of cards in ONE graveyard.

About surreal memoir, I don't play sorcery drawing anymore but permanent ones like tower of fortunes. And they tend to make us draw 4+. So Surreal is way below my own appreciation of power.

Anyone noticed Linvala's static ability to suppress all activated abilities applies to MANA abilities ? (not that big in T4, indeed, but in other formats... it's one of a kind).

[Farandar]

Another nice counter :

Lay Bare 

Instant Common
Counter target spell. Look at its controller's hand.

[Lysyc12]

Umm... yeah.  This will be happening.

It That Betrays  
Creature - Eldrazi
Annihilator 2
Whenever an opponent sacrifices a nontoken permanent, put that card onto the battlefield under your control.
11/11

Wow.

[Farandar]

It that betrays is huge, but what about this ?

Evil Omen 4BBB
Enchantment (Rare)
At the beginning of your end step, you may reveal the top card of your library. If you do, each opponent loses life equal to that card's converted mana cost.

Isn't it nice ? The wording is perfect : "at the beginning of your end step" : begins right after you cast it, and "each opponent". It's wonderful !

[Wagner]

It that betrays is huge, but what about this ?

Evil Omen
Enchantment (Rare)
At the beginning of your end step, you may reveal the top card of your library. If you do, each opponent loses life equal to that card's converted mana cost.

Isn't it nice ? The wording is perfect : "at the beginning of your end step" : begins right after you cast it, and "each opponent". It's wonderful !

Sounds awesome, no one will let you have it, just in case Draco is coming. But it's an enchantment hard to deal with. How much does that cost?


Oh never mind, got it here, 4BBB.

[Farandar]

So. The full spoiler is out. So here are the cards worth considering including in our stacks :

Baneful omen : Can kill everyone on the spot (when you reveal draco) or just make everybody laugh (when you reveal Path to exile...)
Emrakul the aeons torn : Almost Uncounterable Time walk + a anwfully big body with a lot of protection
Kozilek the butcher of truths : Almost Uncounterable draw 4 on the cast + a big mighty body
Ulamog the infinite gyre : Almost Uncounterable Vindicate on an better body than Darksteel colossus. Yamee !
It that betrays : Big body, awful abilities
Dawnglare invoker : tiny tiny body, but I love the ability. Why not (it won't ruin you, guys
Repay in kind : nobody will leave this room alive
Lay bare : nice counter
Suffer the past : Instant graveyard hate + Drain life, what to complain about ?
Spawnsire of ulamog : infinite chump blocker making, the rest depends on how you play : can it "wish" for all your eldrazi cards of the stack ?
Cast through time : if you love the maestrom nexus, Hive mind, Eye of the storm things. I do
Momentous fall : no question about the best instant drawer you can have. Its condition (having one creature) is not that big. A nice cycler.
Hellcarver demon : Empty board is happening a lot in my T4 game, so its "sacrifice everything" default won't be one (but if anyone has It that betrays on its side).
Pathrazer of Ulamog : A variant from Guile, only more aggressive
Artisan of kozilek : Almost Uncounterable Reanimate on a big body.
All is dust : one of the mightiest wrath ever, since it can get rid you of Inkwell leviathan, Ulamog and Darksteel Colossus and other regen-able things.
Deathless angel : Armored guardian and Eight And half tails have weaker bodies, but can still find utilities (making a spell white so Emrakul gains protection against it, for instance). This one angel is very nice.
Lighthouse chronologist : very fragile but awfully powerful if it survives. Would be too bad not to try it.


For those who want to play Pauper T4 :
Living destiny is a nice instant gain life.

Hey ! That's a lot of cards !

[Killane]

So. The full spoiler is out. So here are the cards worth considering including in our stacks :

Baneful omen : Can kill everyone on the spot (when you reveal draco) or just make everybody laugh (when you reveal Path to exile...)
Emrakul the aeons torn : Almost Uncounterable Time walk + a anwfully big body with a lot of protection
Kozilek the butcher of truths : Almost Uncounterable draw 4 on the cast + a big mighty body
Ulamog the infinite gyre : Almost Uncounterable Vindicate on an better body than Darksteel colossus. Yamee !
It that betrays : Big body, awful abilities
Dawnglare invoker : tiny tiny body, but I love the ability. Why not (it won't ruin you, guys
Repay in kind : nobody will leave this room alive
Lay bare : nice counter
Suffer the past : Instant graveyard hate + Drain life, what to complain about ?
Spawnsire of ulamog : infinite chump blocker making, the rest depends on how you play : can it "wish" for all your eldrazi cards of the stack ?
Cast through time : if you love the maestrom nexus, Hive mind, Eye of the storm things. I do
Momentous fall : no question about the best instant drawer you can have. Its condition (having one creature) is not that big. A nice cycler.
Hellcarver demon : Empty board is happening a lot in my T4 game, so its "sacrifice everything" default won't be one (but if anyone has It that betrays on its side).
Pathrazer of Ulamog : A variant from Guile, only more aggressive
Artisan of kozilek : Almost Uncounterable Reanimate on a big body.
All is dust : one of the mightiest wrath ever, since it can get rid you of Inkwell leviathan, Ulamog and Darksteel Colossus and other regen-able things.
Deathless angel : Armored guardian and Eight And half tails have weaker bodies, but can still find utilities (making a spell white so Emrakul gains protection against it, for instance). This one angel is very nice.
Lighthouse chronologist : very fragile but awfully powerful if it survives. Would be too bad not to try it.


For those who want to play Pauper T4 :
Living destiny is a nice instant gain life.

Hey ! That's a lot of cards !

All is dust kills Neither ulamog nor DSC. Other than that it's pretty nice.

[Farandar]

All is dust kills Neither ulamog nor DSC. Other than that it's pretty nice.

Would you believe me if I told you I was trying to see which one of you guys followed what I said ?

[Farandar]

BTW, I forgot to mention Linvala, Keeper of silence in my "wanna grab one" list.