[Deck] Zherbus Control (Keeper 04)

[Tristal]

I think that honestly, more than any other card (Except MAYBE Will, and that's a stretch!), Mind Twist is responsible for the majority of my opponent's complaints in matches, akin to "If you hadn't Twisted me for 4, I think I had you".  Maybe if your metagame is very Squee-intensive it becomes less useful, but sometimes you just get the "I win" hands where you Mana Drain a key second turn spell and throw it in their face with a Twist next turn; or a land-mox-lotus first turn Twist for 4.  I will -never- cut Twist from my Keeper deck, and I don't even own Lotus!

[Zherbus]

Amen, Tristal. Especially in the tougher matches such as Tog and Food-chain goblins, Mind Twist is a game winner and has really earned its keep as of late. The only time it's ever left my deck was when GAT was huge and Gushes and Misdirection were abundant.

[Tristal]

Twist also REALLY helps the mono-black matchup, where a third turn twist for 3 or 4 is basically game against them, whereas without it you often have to deal with two more threats (Sphere, Hyppie, Hymn, Shade etc) which often can cripple the game state too much for Keeper to dig out of.
(This goes especially since I refuse to run Skeletal Scrying maindeck due to its unusefulness in the Sligh and Dragon matchups.)

[Zherbus]

While the Sligh reference is obvious, I don't see how card draw is bad against Dragon.

[Tristal]

I'd rather have solid answers than card draw, especially when the card draw is a bit slow.  Why bother drawing a few cards when instead you can try to force a Matrix on the board?

[Zherbus]

...because you can buy yourself some time to find solid answers by wiping their hand free of disruption and combo components. You really think it's unuseful huh?

EDIT - My, I'm retarded. I somehow had a mindslip and went back to talking about Twist.

Scrying is fine against Dragon because it's generally easy to draw 1-2 early on. Also, Dragon isn't so hard of a matchup that you need to be giving the card draw overly-serious consideration.

[Tristal]

Nono - TWIST is great against Dragon because it IS an answer, taking care of the 1-2 reanimate spells in their hand before they get useful.  Scrying is much less of an answer - yes, card drawing gets you to your answers, but the issue here is time; if you have the time and resources to set up a Scrying for more than 3, you've probably already won the Dragon matchup.  A Matrix, however, either they counter NOW, or suddenly have a much, much harder route to victory - one that will buy you a LOT of time.  
The Dragon match, to me, comes down to answers.  If they decide to start going off, you need more answers in your hand than they do.  Since they often try to go off on turns 2-3, it pays to have some of the cheapest 'answers' available in your hand - Swords, Stifle, Coffin Purge, FoW, etc.  If they do wait to go off until later in the game, you have many different answers at your disposal - Matrix, Mind Twist, Mana Drain, etc.  Late game Scrying is fantastic if it resolves, there's no doubt about that; I'd simply rather have more proactive answers, because they have very few reactive answers in their deck to deal with mine.  (Either they Force the Matrix, or they pretty much lose, since they now have to force a Deed on the table.)
I find Scrying often compares with Fact or Fiction, though clearly Scrying is more flexible lategame.  However, in game 1 I'd still rather have FoF, simply because it pitches to Force.  (I side out FoF.)
In conclusion:
Mind Twist - Never dead.  Always great.
Skeletal Scrying - Too slow in the Dragon matchup for my tastes; life loss is too rough for Sligh; GREAT at bouncing back in Tog or Monoblack matches.
Damping Matrix - Hahaha, die Dragon/Tog/Scepter
<= 1 Mana answers to Dragon: Worth their weight in gold.

Feel free to take my advice with a grain of salt, but I've played the Dragon/Keeper matchup to death, and this is how I see it.

[DavidHernandez]

I'd rather have solid answers than card draw

Card Drawing is what GIVES you solid answers.  That's the whole point.  Scrying is **amazing**, and gives you what you need at instant speed for the same cost as Necro and Bargain (lose one life to draw a card).

Looking at it another way, without a superior card-drawing engine, you will not find the answers you need in order to win.

dave.

[leviat]

I find that my biggest problem against Mind Twist is that it's a lot more conditional:

Mind Twist is a dead draw when...
- Your opponent has already emptied there hand / is in topdeck mode.
- When your opponent is using Squee with Bazaar/Survival
- Against control when you can't back it up (fear the MisD)
- When your opponent already has a threat on the board.
- When you need to FoW something and Mind Twist could have been a blue card.

Mind Twist is amazing when...
- You get it in your opening hand with mana/accel.
- Your opponent gets mana screwed is unable to play their threats (or waiting to setup in the case of Dragon).
- Late game when you catch a control deck with it's pants down (or hit a Decree with it).
- Your opponent hasn't had time to cast all their threats.
- Your opponent is sitting on lots of hate (REBs, etc)

Don't get me wrong, I very badly want to play Mind Twist, but for now I'm pretty sure that cutting it for a third Wish would be more useful in Z's build. I think it makes the deck just a little bit more solid. Especially when Keeper's blue cards are at an all time low.

Edit: Updated with info that was pointed out.

[Zherbus]

- Against control when you can't back it up (fear the MisD)

That's the beauty of GAT or Phid not being played much. The control decks that one would most likely see aren't running many Misdirections.

- When your opponent already has a threat on the board.

It's better than removal if they are holding two more threats in hand, and on par with removal if they have just one threat in hand.

[Dante]

You forgot one other good situation - when your opponent is sitting on a bunch of sided REBs and such.

Dante

[Tristal]

Swords is pretty conditional too - they have to have a targettable creature on the board.  I'm still playing 2 Swords maindeck. >:)

Before people start up the argument that "Mind Twist will never save you like Swords does" - I tutor up Mind Twist way more often than Swords, and Twist will win you games you never thought you had a chance in.

[leviat]

Through my play testing of Steve's deck, I feel that there needs to be a third Wish. I personally like having three Wishes and I really enjoy the strong synergy between Skeletal Scrying and the Wishes themselves. However, I don't want to start an argument with people over whether there needs to be that third Wish. Instead, I would like to focus more on which card is the best choice for the cut.

My choice right now is going for the Mind Twist because of it's conditional nature. But, for review, here is a list of cards I see being the potential cut.

- The Mind Twist
- The second Swords to Plowshares
- The third Decree of Justice
- The fourth Brainstorm
- The second Skeletal Scrying
- The Mystical Tutor

I personally would rather not cut a blue card because I'm hoping to up the blue count with the additional Wish. Cutting the Skeletal Scrying would go against one of my reason for adding the third wish, so I would like to leave that alone as well.

That leaves StoP, Decree, or the Twist.

In my own testing, the StoP has been very useful to stop the early Welder, Metal Worker, Jug, etc. so I'm very wary of cutting it. Now I'm left with a Decree and a Twist. Cutting the Decree will weaken my matchup against Control (specifically LandStill) which is very prevalent in my area. Decree has also saved me many times against MUD (another popular deck) thanks to Decree's ability to make perms and sneak under Sphere of Resistance.

So my analysis has left me to cut Twist. Unfortunately, the problem is that Twist can just WIN a game for you which makes me so very doubtful of my conclusion for cutting it. For now, I'm going to mark one of my Decree and see if I would prefer it to be a Twist. I'll also try to do the same with the second Swords and see if I can come to any useful conclusions.

[Tristal]

Have you considered cutting the second Stifle?  That would probably be first on my list.

[Kerz]

Then he is playing 1 stifle in his deck. Stifle is hardly a silver bullet 1 of, nor is it a good card to have come up randomly. Keeper is trying to stay away from that- how many unrestricted 1-of's do you see in that list?

[leviat]

Have you considered cutting the second Stifle?  That would probably be first on my list.

The Stifles are just too important. I actually play a third in my Sideboard. For starters, they are the only way to deal with Decree of Justice which is all over the place in my meta. Second, this build of Keeper focuses on resource destruction (5 Strips, 2 Monkeys) which makes Stifle somewhat important for its ability to hit Fetchlands and stop opposing Wastelands.

So in short, I really see the two Stifles as a must.

[Tristal]

I play one Stifle main and one sideboard.

Kerz: According to your logic, we should then cut the Fire/Ice main, and probably the Disenchant and the BEB sideboard.  I think "Keeper is trying ot stay away from that" is a very narrow view and really restricts deckbuilding.  Sometimes the optimum number isn't 4.

Can we go back to "There is no ONE build of Keeper" yet?  There's too much burn in my metagame to play Scrying maindeck; there's too much Tog in Zherbus' not to play two.

If you find that there's a lot of Landstill/Fish in your meta, then perhaps Twist is the correct card to cut, but I'd probably still try to fit it in the sideboard.

[DavidHernandez]

Hm, no i dont think the single Stifle is as strong as a single Disenchant or Fire/Ice.  I find Stifle strongest when i run 3.  If I (for some reason) find that I'm only going to have one in the main, then i would rather cut it for a third Cunning Wish.  2 Stifle's main can be good with 2 Cunning Wish Main, and a third Stifle in the sideboard, and I think that's what Zherbus found through his testing too.

As for Mind Twist not being blue, you could always play Amnesia.

[Joke]Do any of you play with Amnesia?[/Joke]

My biggest concern with Amnesia is the casting cost (in terms of required Blue Mana), but with testing, it could be an alternative.

dave.

[Tristal]

Amnesia gets REB'd.  That's about all I need to know to never have to test it.

[Zherbus]

Jason-baby: The reason you want to cut Mind Twist is because you want to make room for another Cunning Wish. The reason I cut a Cunning Wish is because it's dog-shit in the Tog matchup and Mind Twist just so happens to be solid gold. If I were in your position, then I would probably cut a Decree before cutting Mind Twist still. That's assuming I understand your position, which very well could be flawed.

Another option (as Kerz brought up) is Fire/Ice. I view Fire/Ice as a necessary evil. It's STP #3 against everything you need it against that just so happens to be cycle-able. That's not to mention that it's super-stellar against Fish and is fully compatable with the land denial theme.

[MaxxMatt]

@Tristal. If you need to be more versatile by adding the 3° Wish ( which I think necessary ONLY in the Workshop.dec's Matchup.. ) why don't you cut the Second StP? It let you to have a "not dead" card in hands until some creatures hit the board and if the Tog matchup is what you fear most, I assure you that paying UW2 during your EoT instead of W isn't so problematic.
Plus, you can add more "Istant-Hate" during game 1 ( such as, Purge, Charm, StP, ReB, BeB, R&R and so on..) thanx to the 3° Wish.
If you meta is full of Aggro or AggroControl my suggested choice should not be followed for obvious consistency reasons, , but in any other cases I think that is better to cut StP than any other key spell in the Z's Build.

I'm with Zherbus about the number of Decrees and Stiffles used.
He build this "thing" proactively thinking about a metagame Full of Control AND Combo in primis, that SHOULD use his same weapons for winning. So to achieve a victory we need "MoreWeapons" ( 3 Decree of Justice )than opponent's and a bit of "Solutions" ( Stiffles )  to the opponent's Decrees.

I didn't find room for the 3° Stiffle in my sideboard, but I WANT to find room for Last Words, that IMHO, should be THE WISHABLE SOLUTION to a midgame opponent's Yawgmoth's Will.

About Mind Twist, I found that it is HORRIBLE only against Workshop.dec but ONLY WHEN I'm under one or two Tangle Wire ( sadly the same feeling that I have for ALL the Sorceries of my deck.. ). So, for me, it is Uncuttable.

What do you think?

[Tristal]

@ Maxxmatt: >>I assure you that paying UW2 during your EoT instead of W isn't so problematic.

Cunning Wish never, ever, ever resolves against Tog.  (Or, if it does, it's because they decided to AK for 3 and 4 in response and no longer care.)  Besides, I can't think of a single matchup besides the Keeper mirror that Swords is really dead against (And even then you hit Shamans).

I already run three Wishes.  This might get cut to two in place of a maindeck Scrying.

As for Last Word, I don't think an opponent with Will on the stack is going to let your CWish resolve, Last Word or no (You could just be getting Coffin Purge, which is pretty good too)

[Zherbus]

2UU is way too prohibitive to cast regularly. Also, paying to Cunning Wish for Last Word to resolve Yawgmoth's Will sounds really counterproductive even if you're wishing for LW ahead of time.

[Kerz]

Well, I didn't really suggest cutting Fire/Ice although it may have seemed so- I am just using the example because it is the only unrestricted one-of that your build is playing (yes, it is neccessary). Fire/Ice is very versitile and etc, and a very good one-of (compliment to removal base, denial theme, etc), but Stifle isn't. It is a key part to the denial theme that keeper must run in today's metgame.

Anyways- Mind Twist is too good not to cut in this metagame. It isn't Reb-able, and no one plays Mis-D's. It is another keeper bomb, and another absolutely neccessary card.

I personnally don't like 3 wish because they add amazing flexibility, but are a tad clunky, especially in multiples early. Also, as Zherbus already stated, it is bad in the Tog matchup. 2 seems like the perfect number at the moment.

[MaxxMatt]

@Talking About the Tog Matchup with Zherbus & friends .

In the last tourney, I used 2 D.A. as you proposed in your side, as good teches to add in the control-mirror post side ( vs. Hulk and Keeper ). I've not tested them at all.. so I didn't know how they should perform... They were not stellar cards but they did a good job.

Against Keeper I sided in only 2 D.As. and 2 ReBs, keeping the 2 Wishes in the maindeck to check for solution when needed.
More problems I have had siding against Tog because I have too good things to side in ( Damn You Zherb!   ). I chose to side in 2 Matrix, 2 D.As. and 2 ReBs and an additional StP. I taked out Wishes and other stuff to have room for these cards.
I'm talking about this siding configuration because, unkucky me or not,  in the second game I losed badly. In the third game, I choose to keep the Wishes in the maindeck and I found them more versatile than the solutions that I added in the second game. Collateraly speaking, I won.

For these reasons, I stated above that Wishing for Solution or "Tricks" even during game 2 and 3 could be game breaking. Your opponent can't always "go off" with his draw engine. You have draw spells that force him to use his BluCounters instead of ReBs and after fighting on an EoT treat such as Wishes or Removals or Draw spells, you could  try to force some NonBlueBombs during your next mainphase ( Damping Matrix, Mind Twist, Y.Will ) that could seal the game or stall it enough to refuel your hand or steal games with your Soldiers.

What do you think ?


--------

@Talking about LW.

I suggested this ( untested ) Idea only because it should possibily be the only use for this 4cc Counter.
Proactively Wishing for LW, is of course a not so hot option, but if know that your opponents doesn't have Hand Disruption Spells, it "shoud" be a great solution to hold in hand until needed. Usually, great counter wars involve more than 4 mana. The LW's cc is really painful, but it is definitive and Wishing for it proactively during the early game, at least would stop 1 of the Keeper's Best Bombs: Mind Twist and Y.Will.
But of course, I will test it more before talking so much about it.

[Toad]

More problems I have had siding against Tog because I have too good things to side in ( Damn You Zherb!   ). I chose to side in 2 Matrix, 2 D.As. and 2 ReBs and an additional StP. I taked out Wishes and other stuff to have room for these cards.

With 3 Red Elemental Blasts and 2 Deep Analysis in your sideboard, you should probably go -2 Swords to Plowshares, -1 Mystical Tutor, -1 Fire/Ice and probably -1 Cunning Wish (you keep one in so you can get a Coffin Purge or goodies if needed) against Tog. You don't want to bring in Swords to Plowshares because spot removal is horrible in Control Mirrors, and if Tog outdraws you, you'll lose anyways even if you have additional Swords to Plowshares. Same thing for Damping Matrix. It's just a minor annoyance for Tog because If the Tog player controls the game, he'll easily get rid of the Matrix. And It shuts your Gorilla Shaman, which are really strong in this matchup as Tog relies a lot on his Moxens for his draw engine. You should not focus on the opponent's win condition in control mirrors. The Deep Analysis are good but I don't really like them personnaly. This is probably the only remaining difference between Zherbus's build and mine.

[Zherbus]

The Deep Anals aren't exactly game-breaking but they aren't bad at all. As for siding in Matrix, I don't think that's the right call when you can squeeze more REBs in from the board.

[Tristal]

Do you side in Matrix vs Scepter Keeper?  If not, what exactly DOES it get sided in against, if not Tog?  I've always sided it in versus Tog and Dragon...

[Zherbus]

Scepter Keeper, Slavery, Mud, Stax, TnT, Mask, and [not ophidian] Morphling based decks.

Damn errata. You never see much Ophidian anyway.

[leviat]

Scepter Keeper, Slavery, Mud, Stax, TnT, and Ophidian based decks.

Side Note: Matrix doesn't stop Ophidian.