Terastodon Oath

[Tha Gunslinga]

I thought we needed a thread; I don't think the Tournament Reports forum should be used for serious deck discussion.

Anyway, here's Rich's original list:

Hey, Who Let in All These Elephants?
Rich Shay
    4 Forbidden Orchard
    1 Strip Mine
    4 Misty Rainforest
    1 Library of Alexandria
    1 Tolarian Academy
    1 Forest
    2 Island
    1 Tropical Island
    3 Underground Sea

    1 Mox Sapphire
    1 Mox Emerald
    1 Mox Pearl
    1 Mox Jet
    1 Mana Crypt
    1 Mox Ruby
    1 Black Lotus
    1 Sol Ring

    4 Oath of Druids
    1 Tinker
    1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
    1 Darksteel Colossus
    1 Terastodon

    1 Tezzeret the Seeker
    1 Time Vault
    1 Voltaic Key

    4 Spell Pierce
    4 Force of Will

    2 Sensei's Divining Top
    1 Yawgmoth's Will
    1 Regrowth
    1 Time Walk
    1 Mystical Tutor
    1 Merchant Scroll
    1 Vampiric Tutor
    1 Demonic Tutor

    1 Ponder
    1 Gifts Ungiven
    1 Thirst for Knowledge
    1 Brainstorm
    1 Ancestral Recall
    1 Lat-Nam's Legacy


// Sideboard:
SB: 1 Terastodon
SB: 2 Show and Tell
SB: 2 Duress
SB: 3 Nature's Claim
SB: 4 Ravenous Trap
SB: 2 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 1 Bribery


All I changed is to cut the Lat-Nam's Legacy for a Show and Tell, since Legacy is by far the weakest card in the deck, and Show and Tell can be Mysticalled up if you don't want Tinker and have a dude in hand.

Why is Terastodon Oath good?
It's very hard to deal with in that it has either the Oath plan, the Tinker/protect DSC plan, or the Key/Vault or Tezzeret/Vault plan to win with.  You can fight one part, but will lose to the other one.  Show and Tell post-board allows you to dodge hate cards such as Ray of Revelation, Greater Gargadon, and Goblin Bombardment.  Oath has always been amazingly strong just because you can drop it so easily turn 1.  Terastodon Oath is just Oaths, dudes, broken cards, and counters.

Why Terastodon Oath over Vroman Oath?
Vroman Oath wins by Oathing up Iona, naming blue, then Oathing again and Krosan Reccing Yawgmoth's Will for infinite turns via Key/Vault and Timetwister.  You lose to Extirpate or Faerie Macabre (obviously no one plays this), and you have trouble playing through Leyline/Tormod's/Relic.  Vroman Oath is full of cards that you really don't want in your opener, such as Mishra's Factory, Pernicious Deed, Timetwister (most of the time this is dead), Krosan Reclamation, Flash of Insight.  These are all situationally good, but they suck compared to real broken cards like Demonic Tutor, Gifts Ungiven, etc.  Terastodon Oath is just broken cards.  It's so hard for an opponent to beat you when all you're drawing is Oaths, counters, Tutors, and other broken cards.

Why Terastodon?
It's insane.  There's seriously more thought involved in what to blow up with Terastodon than there is in the rest of the deck combined.  You can blow up lock pieces, Key/Vault, manabases, Null Rod, your own Oath/spare Moxen, or any combination thereof.

Why Bribery?
It's awesome.  Great as an additional win condition, hilarious vs Greater Gargadon, nice in the mirror.

Aren't you dead to Platinum Angel?
Preboard, yes, which is why you run 8 counters.  Also, no one plays Platinum Angel.  Postboard you have Nature's Claims to toast it, and you can always set up infinite turns and draw all your Claims just in case.

Why DSC over Sphinx?
DSC kills MUCH faster.  Occasionally Sphinx will be better vs aggro decks, but hey, you're playing Oath--you crush aggro.  If you want to play Sphinx, fine, go for it.  Either one can be hardcast with the deck.  DSC does shuffle itself in, which is relevant with Thirst, but also if your opponent sets up Painter/Grindstone--Darksteel gives you one more turn to win.  This actually happened to me; I had Yawgmoth's Will in hand, so I drew Darksteel, played Will, replayed everything out of the yard, played Tezzeret, Untapped Sol Ring/Mana Crypt, cast DSC, Tinkered it out in order to get a card in my deck so I wouldn't lose next turn, Time Walked, then untapped and used Tezzeret's ultimate to kill my opponent.  It was epic.

Why Tezzeret?
So you're not dead to Sadistic Sacrament preboard.  Also, it's like a 5-mana Tinker that doesn't cost you an artifact and wins the game faster, as long as you can protect it for a turn.  Tezzeret also has other uses, and even pitches to Force.  I tested a number of games vs TPS and found that Tezzeret was usually my best option, since Oath was typically too slow and risky to set up, whereas Tezzeret won much faster.

Why no Blessing/Krosan Rec?
Why bother?  You have 3 creatures; you're not going to deck yourself.  Don't play dead cards.

Why no maindeck Rebuild/Deed/whatever?
You have Terastodon, and typically you don't need something like Rebuild.  You're the aggressor.  Act like one.

That sure is a lot of basic lands.  Why so many?
Lots of Wastelands out there.  Running heavy basics means you don't have to worry about Strips as much.

Mana Crypt?
Yeah, you have Tinker, plus a fairly fast kill, plus Terastodon to get rid of it.  The extra accelleration is awesome.

What do you board out?
Well, I cut a couple lands and one Top usually.  I like having them main for extra consistency, but they're easily boarded out vs decks that don't have land destruction.  Vs anything with Null Rods I will usually cut Tez, Key, Vault, 2 Tops, and bring in Terastodon and the Show and Tells.

That about wraps this up.  I think I'm qualified to talk about this deck given that I top-8ed with Terastodon Oath a month ago with a 5-0, 10-0 record (then lost in top 8 due to mulling to 5 both games, sadly enough) and won a Mox Sapphire with it a couple weeks ago.

[healo]

What about cutting 1 Island for a Volcanic Island and than cut 1 Top for Ancient Grudge? It protects your mana sources from Null Rod and lets you win through Vault/Key. Also, you are not going to deal with broken fast Vault/Key. Here, you cant count on Terastadon to have the work done. It could be also a vaible sb option. Just some thoughts, since its a new thread.. Anyways, Im going to try it out properly, it really looks good.

Edit: Or even better maybe - Lim-Dul's Vault in place of 1 Top..

[mistervader]

What about cutting 1 Island for a Volcanic Island and than cut 1 Top for Ancient Grudge? It protects your mana sources from Null Rod and lets you win through Vault/Key. Also, you are not going to deal with broken fast Vault/Key. Here, you cant count on Terastadon to have the work done. It could be also a vaible sb option. Just some thoughts, since its a new thread.. Anyways, Im going to try it out properly, it really looks good.

Edit: Or even better maybe - Lim-Dul's Vault in place of 1 Top..

I've strongly preferred Jace in the second Top slot, as it has kept creatures out of my hand, helped bounce creatures who are pressuring me, and served as yet another kill condition.

The Ancient Grudge isn't very nice when you consider that the current manabase is very stable against Wastelands, and the deck that runs Null Rods also probably run Wastelands.

[Phele]

Vroman Oath is full of cards that you really don't want in your opener, such as Mishra's Factory, Pernicious Deed, Timetwister (most of the time this is dead), Krosan Reclamation, Flash of Insight.  These are all situationally good, but they suck compared to real broken cards like Demonic Tutor, Gifts Ungiven, etc.  Terastodon Oath is just broken cards.  It's so hard for an opponent to beat you when all you're drawing is Oaths, counters, Tutors, and other broken cards.

But doesn't have Terastodon Oath as many dead draws? Aren't they even deader? (does this word exist?). I don't want to see eiter DSC, Elephant or Show and Tell in my opening hand as well. If you have one of them in your hand you need to tutor for a dude or Show and Tell to make them not totally dead. And if the Show and Tell gets countered you not only generated card disadvantage by tutoring, you also still have the dead creature in your hand. Mishra, Krosan and Flash of Insight at least have SOME uses and Deed and Twister are not dead at all. The mentioned broken cards like Demonic Tutor or Gifts are for sure played in every serious Oath variant and Terastodon Oath is definately not playing more of them.

[Tha Gunslinga]

What about cutting 1 Island for a Volcanic Island and than cut 1 Top for Ancient Grudge?

No, because you don't need maindeck removal for stuff, and making your manabase weaker is a bad idea.  If your meta is heavy on Ancient Grudge targets, feel free to do that, but I personally would not.

It protects your mana sources from Null Rod and lets you win through Vault/Key.

Your mana sources are primarily lands; this is why you run so many; so you don't get mana-screwed.  As far as Key/Vault goes; Tezzeret is a much smaller part of the metagame than it was in the past, and you have 8 counters and a fast kill in order to prevent losing to Key/Vault.

Also, you are not going to deal with broken fast Vault/Key.

Sure you are.  Counter one of them.

It could be also a vaible sb option.

It could, but I prefer the Nature's Claims, since they don't alter your manabase, and they're good vs a lot of other things, including ObeyLine, which a lot of folks are currently playing.

But doesn't have Terastodon Oath as many dead draws? Aren't they even deader?

No, it has significantly fewer, and honestly, I have won plenty of games by hardcasting Terastodon and DSC.  You also run Show and Tell so you can drop your guy into play if it's in your hand.

Here's a random Vroman Oath list I pulled off Morphling.de:

1 Black Lotus
1 Lotus Petal
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Sol Ring
1 Time Vault
1 Voltaic Key
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Thoughseize
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Brainstorm
1 Flash of Insight
4 Force of Will
1 Gifts Ungiven
1 Merchant Scroll
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Ponder
1 Rebuild
4 Spell Pierce
1 Thirst for Knowledge
1 Time Walk
1 Timetwister
1 Krosan Reclamation
4 Oath of Druids
1 Regrowth
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria


Lands (17):
4 Forbidden Orchard
1 Forest
1 Island
1 Library of Alexandria
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Strip Mine
1 Tolarian Academy
1 Tropical Island
3 Underground Sea

SB:
1 Balance
2 Extirpate
1 Oxidize
1 Pernicious Deed
2 Ravenous Trap
1 Rebuild
2 Sadistic Sacrament
1 Slaughter Pact
1 Sphinx of the Steel Wind
1 Tezzeret the Seeker
1 Tinker
1 Tormod's Crypt

Your maindeck dead cards are:
1 Flash of Insight
1 Rebuild
1 Timetwister
1 Krosan Reclamation
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria

Whereas my maindeck dead cards are:
Terastodon
DSC
Iona
possibly Show and Tell


Show and Tell is fine in the opener if you have a creature or a way to get one, and it always pitches to Force.  The thing is, yes the "dead" cards in Vroman Oath are marginally playable--Rebuild cycles, Flash of Insight cycles, Twister can occasionally be good (though I'm always scared to use it against any deck with Key/Vault in it), Krosan Reclamation can be good, Ancient Grudge is removal.  However, these are all excuses.  What it really boils down to is that you don't want those in your opener except in specific matchups, and even then most of them you still don't want.   You're still looking at a few more dead cards than Terastodon Oath.  Most of Vroman's builds have a manland as an additional win condition, which is a 7th dead card in that it's worse than a basic land due to either Faerie Conclave coming in tapped and being vulnerable to Wasteland, or Mishra's Factory only tapping for colorless.

If you have one of them in your hand you need to tutor for a dude or Show and Tell to make them not totally
dead.

Or you play Thirst for Knowledge and discard them.  I mean, you're running 4 Tutors that can get Show and Tell for you; it's not that difficult.  Yes, if they counter it you've still got the creature in hand.  That means you can just topdeck and go from there.


Remember also that if Vroman Oath has Iona in hand it cannot win unless it wants to risk Oathing the deck into the yard and losing to a counterspell.  You then have to rely on hitting your ONE Brainstorm, or Tutoring for it and hoping it doesn't get countered.  Playing Vroman Oath, I would have to mulligan pretty much all hands that contained Iona.  With Terastodon Oath I don't worry about that; if the rest of the hand is good, having one dead card in it isn't a problem.

Mishra, Krosan and Flash of Insight at least have SOME uses and Deed and Twister are not dead at all.

Yes, but if you're playing Oath, you're already playing a minimum of 2-3 dead cards (creatures and possibly a graveyard shuffling spell).  Why play more?  Deed is fairly hard to set up most of the time, especially against Fish decks that attack your manabase and run Daze/Spell Pierce.  Timetwister can easily lose you the game depending on who draws what.  Flash of Insight costs 3 mana just to replace itself, which is too slow for a combo deck.  Krosan Rec is useless against half the field.



The reason Terastodon Oath is better is because it has 2 additional clean lines of play that Vroman Oath doesn't have.  It has Tezzeret for Key/Vault.  It has Tinker/DSC.  You also have slightly uglier lines of play in Show and Tell or hardcasting your creatures, which is MUCH easier when they cost 6GG vs 6WWW.  You also don't have to worry as much about drawing dead cards, or about opening up a hand with Iona and having to mull because you can't win with it in-hand.  Also, vs Sadistic Sacrament, if they hit you, they can take your creatures, so all you have to do is tutor up Tezzeret and you win, whereas Vroman Oath preboard either just loses to it or has to win with Mishra's Factory, which is much harder to do.

[mistervader]

Has it ever turned up as a problem that you suddenly had to race your own elephants? Just wondering, as so far, I haven't come across those situations, but you might have.

[Tha Gunslinga]

That's why the Terastodon part takes a TON of thinking.  You have to decide how many Elephants you can safely give your opponent.  Generally it's not an issue; people often concede to "blow up your board, drop a 9/9" even if they have a chance to win.  Your worst-case Elephant scenario is destroying 3 of their permanents with Terastodon, so that means next turn you would be able to block one 3/3, then you'd get hit with 2 3/3s and at least 1 spirit token, for 7 damage.  The turn after that you can Oath again presumably, and either DSC or Iona will come out, so you'll be able to block both tokens and only take 1 from the Spirit.  After that you can either alpha strike to win, or just keep blocking and swinging with Iona in the air.

One fun part of Terastodon Oath is that you're not running much that damages you.  You do have Mana Crypt, yes, but you don't have Thoughtseize or Dark Confidant, and you're not running a super-heavy fetchland manabase.  Usually when Oath gets going you'll be at 19 or 18, so losing to your own Elephants is pretty unlikely, and if you're facing a deck like Fish that can race you, just blow up your own stuff, possibly including Oath if you don't think you'll need it and don't want your opponent having the chance to activate it.  It's pretty hard for any fish deck to deal with a 9/9 and 3 3/3s.

One advantage of Terastodon that I forgot to mention is that it beats Inkwell pretty well.  You can blow up all your Islands, and a 7/11 is no match for a 9/9 and 3 3/3s.  Then you just give them a few more Orchard tokens and bring out DSC or Iona for the win, or just alpha strike if you have enough life to pull it off, or stall until you find Key/Vault.

[Cyberpunker]

I just tested 2 hours vs Selkie. You need at least 6 hate cards post board. And I am now on the fence between Inkwell or Sphinx of the Steel Wind. We cannot afford to give Selkie even more tempo by letting them Swords to Plowshares our Robot. But the Sphinx can block Trygon while gaining life and attacking. Plus you will always win the race with Sphinx out, but he is vulnerable to Swords to Plowshares.

Selkie is primarily a hate deck that relies on its tempo advantage over Oath/Tez to win. And if it can remove one of our creatures when we finally get it out, it will be a nightmare tempo gain...

So I am not sure, but since I have to make a decision by tommorow I will let you know how the results were.

Btw, I had my DSC Swords to Plowshared 2 tournaments ago, and that was not cool. But that was before I added another creature + Show and Tell. So this time we will see.

[Tha Gunslinga]

What Selkie list were you facing?  What was your sb plan?

[FlyFlySideOfFry]

What about Sundering Titan instead of DSC as the Tinker target? It compliments the potential land destruction of elephant man, is easier to hardcast than DSC, and has a relevant effect when it hits the board to prevent those situations where you're like "tinker/oath into DSC pass the turn, lose to them doing something undisrupted/kill your DSC and Time Walk". When Terastradon was spoiled I tested a similar list with a 5-color mana base+Titan and if I got any creature in play it was game over usually. Now I'm not suggesting going 5-colors is the answer, merely that Sundering Titan is a real bomb and I'll like to know other people's results with him.

[Cyberpunker]

What Selkie list were you facing?  What was your sb plan?

http://nicofromtokyo.com/oscommerce/catalog/vft21.php

Deck # 2.

Sideboard Plan:

3 Massacre
3 Deathmark
2 Nature's Claim

-4 Mana Drain
-1 Merchant Scroll
-1 Gifts Ungiven
-2 Spell Pierce

What about Sundering Titan instead of DSC as the Tinker target?

The problem with Sundering Titan is that he can never be a maindeck creature unless you KNOW for certain that you will not face MUD or Dredge.

You will have to devote your s/b slots for him. Plus, he isn't that great because he can also be targetted and cannot be pitched to FoW.

And our s/b slots are packed really tightly already, so he cannot make it.

[Tha Gunslinga]

Titan just gets chump-blocked by tokens.  DSC clocks in 2 turns, which is what makes Tinker such a threat.  Sundering Titan is a great card, yes, but not here.

Kooaznboi, what list were you playing, that it had Drains in it?

[Smmenen]

If I were playing this deck, I'd cut DSC for Jace.   I only want to ever oath up Terra or Iona. 

[Tha Gunslinga]

If I were playing this deck, I'd cut DSC for Jace.   I only want to ever oath up Terra or Iona. 

It's really hard to Tinker those up, though, which is why we run it.  Tinker wins more games than Jace; against any Fish deck, all you need is Tinker-DSC, and their only out is Plowshares, assuming they even run it.  You counter the StP and win.

[Rico Suave]

The reason Rich played a version with lots of lands and DSC is because older builds had 4 Compulsive Research.  When drawing lots of cards off Compulsive Research, and especially considering Top was cut entirely to make room for Compulsive Research, it was frequently a problem drawing the Tinker target.  Being able to cast Research and dump DSC to get Tinker active again was pretty important.  The deck changed a lot in the few days before Rich played it at that tournament, and DSC was more a byproduct of the older builds than anything else.

Sphinx is a whole lot better than DSC right now (or Inkwell).  

It is necessary to be able to Tinker at low life totals and stabilize.  Sphinx does this, DSC does not.  Even if you ignore Fish and Golem decks that can get you low before you can safely cast Tinker, there is a lot to be said about a deck that literally hands the opponent 11+ power in creatures.  Lifelink is invaluable not because of what your opponent's deck can do, but because of what your own deck does to help your opponent win.  There is a world of difference between Oathing up Terastodon and blowing up one permanent vs. Oathing up Terastodon and blowing up three permanents because you know Sphinx will let you survive their army of tokens where DSC would not.  Sphinx just has better synergy with the deck.

Sphinx has better synergy with the other cards in the deck, it's blue, it doesn't suck against Welders, it doesn't let them sacrifice creatures to halt your Oathing plans, it doesn't let elephants or spirits or zombies interrupt its clock, etc.  Going from a 2 turn clock to a 3 turn clock in a vacuum isn't enough of a speed increase to warrant running DSC given how Sphinx is better in pretty much every single other aspect.  

[Tha Gunslinga]

Those are all highly relevant points, and I agree that Sphinx is better in a lot of ways, but I will stick to DSC.  I win a lot of games with Tinker-DSC, and my metagame is more control and combo decks, not as much aggro.  Sphinx is better for racing creature swarms and Tarmogoyfs, not as good for racing an opponent who's searching for Rebuild, Hurkyl's Recall, or Key/Vault.  Sphinx will often take 3 turns to kill, but it will take 4 turns a good amount of the time.  DSC takes 2 turns.  2 vs 4 is just something I personally will not risk in my matches; digging up a bounce spell in 2 turns is much harder than 4 turns.  Yes, Sphinx is awesome vs elephant tokens, but if you're low in life, just blow up your own board, or kill 2 of theirs and one of yours if you have to.  I haven't found the "racing at low life" to be as big of an issue as the "2-turn-clock vs 4-turn-clock" one.  I think the Sphinx/Inkwell/DSC argument is ultimately one that depends highly on both your local metagame and personal preference, and while I know that's a copout, I don't think that one is necessarily better enough that you can say with certainty, "this Tinker-bot is the correct choice."

[Rico Suave]

If a metagame was such that DSC is the better robot, I would strongly reconsider why you're using the Tinker -> Robot plan in the first place.  Tinker is largely to shore up holes against Workshops and Fish, but in general it's relatively weaker than other options against control or combo.  

[Cyberpunker]

The local vintage tournament was canceled due to people going to the legacy tournament that was being held 5 minutes away.

So it was just free testing.

I am again a fan of Inkwell Leviathan. I tried out Sphinx today and it got Chain of Vapored after I got it in with Show and Tell turn 1. It would have been GG for the Fish deck if I had Inkwell.

I learned this lesson when I lost to Selkie and lost a chance at a French Beta Volcanic. I was an idiot and didn't take heed again today.

I am sticking to Inkwell. The Tinker--Robot plan is already full of holes. Why would you guys be willing to poke more holes in it by letting your opponent's would-be-dead cards suddenly become giant tempo gains for them? And as much as we would love to, we cannot counter everything. So just be safe and go with the plan that offers the most guarantee (Island Walk, Shroud, Blue Card, and Trample)

I will post my list as soon as I win the tournament next Sunday at Yokohama, since it is not set in stone yet.  

@Smmenen

I would also love to cut the Tinker plan too. But that would just be stripping me of 1 win condition. Tinker is not a sure thing anymore. It is more like a gun that misfires 1 out of every 3 times you use it. But its still another gun in your arsenal, and to throw it away would mean throwing away another potential weapon  .

Hope the gun analogy was comprehendible.

[vroman]

I endorse terastodon as oath creature. I put one in my sb.

[Fortune]

Congrats on the finish!  I've been loving this list and am having a great time with it.  Do you think Emrakul, the Aeons Torn will replace the elephant as the third oath target?

No vintage removal can take it out once it hits the board (outside of forced sac effects like Diabolic Edict) and it rips 6 permanents when it swings.

Again, great job man!

[madmanmike25]

DSC takes 2 turns. 

QFT.  As a Shop player I'd much rather see Inkwell or Sphinx, so I begrudgingly agree with maindeck DSC.  Thoughts on running Sphinx/Ink in the sb?

When playing against non-shop decks with removal/bounce, why not just wait to cast Tinker until you can protect DSC?

[pierce]

If I were playing this deck, I'd cut DSC for Jace.   I only want to ever oath up Terra or Iona.  

It's really hard to Tinker those up, though, which is why we run it.  Tinker wins more games than Jace; against any Fish deck, all you need is Tinker-DSC, and their only out is Plowshares, assuming they even run it.  You counter the StP and win.

Steve would probably cut the lat nams for a jace first if I were forced to guess. I certainly always root for the 11/11 when someone oaths though.

Let me point a few additional situations where your logic is less than sound in the above quote.

EDIT: fish often runs hurkyls recall in addition to swords, so lets not just consider swords, but instead the concept of an "out" to DSC
1) the out is protected (duress/tseize, vendillion clique, counters)
2) they have more ways to remove DSC (outs) than you have counters
3) you are forced to use your counter on something else (this is similar to the above situation, since you are countering so few things here EDIT: but time walk and the rare scenario of their own tinker are plausible)
4) you do not have a counter for their out
5) the 3 turns needed with DSC (tinker turn and two swings) isn't fast enough. yes, this can happen with enough flying creatures and time walk, or if their thada steals both half of your time vault combo and goes infinite.

Hardly is Swords an only out to a tinkered dsc, and rarely will a talented fish pilot not protect their removal spell. I appreciate the enthusiasm you have for the deck, and it is really solid, but I have a problem with such grandiose claims. I contend there are at least 6 gamestates where tinker--> dsc does not get the job done, and only some of these involve a swords.

Also, consider for a second the role that a prepared fish player takes when expecting show and tells from you--they simply never cast their vendillion clique, unless it is in response to show and tell, and then enjoy putting a land into play from your hand.

@ fortune: your claims are also less than true. Sower's effect, for example, is not a spell. So too is Karakas's effect.

[Tha Gunslinga]

Emrakul isn't really necessary, and it's too slow.  It can't be Tinkered out, it has no immediate effect on the board, unlike Iona and Terastodon, and its protection isn't as good as it looks.

As far as DSC vs Fish goes, I don't see a point in mentioning Hurkyl's Recall, since surely that will hit any Tinker target I get, except possibly Sundering Titan, which isn't worth running.  Thada Adel stealing my Key/Vault is possible, but surely it wouldn't matter what I was Tinkering out in that case, right?  Besides, postboard Key/Vault will be out.  I'm more looking at Selkie/Hierarch/Tarmogoyf Fish variants, not so much lists with Thoughtseize and Thada Adel.

[pierce]

Emrakul isn't really necessary, and it's too slow.  It can't be Tinkered out, it has no immediate effect on the board, unlike Iona and Terastodon, and its protection isn't as good as it looks.

As far as DSC vs Fish goes, I don't see a point in mentioning Hurkyl's Recall, since surely that will hit any Tinker target I get, except possibly Sundering Titan, which isn't worth running.  Thada Adel stealing my Key/Vault is possible, but surely it wouldn't matter what I was Tinkering out in that case, right?  Besides, postboard Key/Vault will be out.  I'm more looking at Selkie/Hierarch/Tarmogoyf Fish variants, not so much lists with Thoughtseize and Thada Adel.

I grant that Hurkyls was not worth a mention, since a lot of deck play it and it does hit every tinker. My #2 point is actually arbitrary due to this, as we can consider all arguments to be consider an out for fish. It doesnt have to be something speficif. Points 1-5 can just read "fishes out" where that out can be either hurkyls or swords (or diabolic edict, or sower, or echoing truth, or path to exile, or whatever it is these kids run now a days).

I, too, was mainly commenting on possible game states with those lists. They seem to run one thada these days, but you say that post board this is an non issue. I'll agree.
Duress and swords is probably never happening (even I don't do that anymore). but vendillion's effect still remains. All 5 scenarios are likely, though I will concede that scenario 1 is predominately based on vendillion clique and scenario 5 is more likely to involve a very good start plus a time walk on their part.

I just see so much more nuance to Tinker--> DSC against fish than there has been given credit on this thread.

[Smmenen]

If I were playing this deck, I'd cut DSC for Jace.   I only want to ever oath up Terra or Iona. 

It's really hard to Tinker those up, though, which is why we run it.  Tinker wins more games than Jace; against any Fish deck, all you need is Tinker-DSC, and their only out is Plowshares, assuming they even run it.  You counter the StP and win.

But isn't the idea of Oath that(in those matchups) you have 4 green tinkers?   In my testing with this deck, the risk of hitting DSC was unacceptably high in matchups where it matters.  There are too many situations and matchups where DSC is dead.  I readily appreciate the value of Tinker, but you still have the Time Vault combo, and you can always put DSC -- or any other artifact creature -- in your sideboard.   

Iona and Terrastodan are exceptional Oath targets.   Over the years since the printing of Forbidden Orchards we've witnessed the gradual evolution of Oath victory conditions.   Those creatures are now stronger than ever, and diluting the force of Iona or Terrastodan with DSC seems questionable in principle.  DSC didn't make the cut in 2004; I'm not sure why its good enough here.   If the answer is that DSC is another win condition, then I'd suggest Jace.   Jace's Brainstorm ability makes it a ready-made, highly synergistic win condition.   There are times when DT for Brainstorm is worth it, simply because you want to put Iona or Terrastodan into your deck.   Jace does that.   

[voltron00x]

If I were playing this deck, I'd cut DSC for Jace.   I only want to ever oath up Terra or Iona. 

It's really hard to Tinker those up, though, which is why we run it.  Tinker wins more games than Jace; against any Fish deck, all you need is Tinker-DSC, and their only out is Plowshares, assuming they even run it.  You counter the StP and win.

But isn't the idea of Oath that(in those matchups) you have 4 green tinkers?   In my testing with this deck, the risk of hitting DSC was unacceptably high in matchups where it matters.  There are too many situations and matchups where DSC is dead.  I readily appreciate the value of Tinker, but you still have the Time Vault combo, and you can always put DSC -- or any other artifact creature -- in your sideboard.   

Iona and Terrastodan are exceptional Oath targets.   Over the years since the printing of Forbidden Orchards we've witnessed the gradual evolution of Oath victory conditions.   Those creatures are now stronger than ever, and diluting the force of Iona or Terrastodan with DSC seems questionable in principle.  DSC didn't make the cut in 2004; I'm not sure why its good enough here.   If the answer is that DSC is another win condition, then I'd suggest Jace.   Jace's Brainstorm ability makes it a ready-made, highly synergistic win condition.   There are times when DT for Brainstorm is worth it, simply because you want to put Iona or Terrastodan into your deck.   Jace does that.   

I actually agree with a lot of this.  DSC has been mostly terrible whenever I tested it.  I also hate having 3 very different Oath creatures.

Regardless, this version may be great in the meta in which you're testing it.  I think its a good deck... I just wouldn't play it in a PA / NJ / NY tournament, although Brad piloted a relatively simliar list to a Top 4 last Saturday.

Currently I'm playing with 2x Jace, the card is much stronger than I first thought.  I'm playing 3 Drains atm to support Jace.  Its really that good; I've won nearly every game it resolved.

[arctic79]

I don't see why tinker & tinker target can't be in the board or just out right cut.  It seems to me that Iona & Terastodon are more than a formidable pair on their own, and I appreciate the strength of Tinker but it seems like a bit of overkill.  I would replace them with something like another draw spell and a silver bullet.

[Troy_Costisick]

If I were playing this deck, I'd cut DSC for Jace.   I only want to ever oath up Terra or Iona. 

It's really hard to Tinker those up, though, which is why we run it.  Tinker wins more games than Jace; against any Fish deck, all you need is Tinker-DSC, and their only out is Plowshares, assuming they even run it.  You counter the StP and win.

But isn't the idea of Oath that(in those matchups) you have 4 green tinkers?   In my testing with this deck, the risk of hitting DSC was unacceptably high in matchups where it matters.  There are too many situations and matchups where DSC is dead.  I readily appreciate the value of Tinker, but you still have the Time Vault combo, and you can always put DSC -- or any other artifact creature -- in your sideboard.   

Iona and Terrastodan are exceptional Oath targets.   Over the years since the printing of Forbidden Orchards we've witnessed the gradual evolution of Oath victory conditions.   Those creatures are now stronger than ever, and diluting the force of Iona or Terrastodan with DSC seems questionable in principle.  DSC didn't make the cut in 2004; I'm not sure why its good enough here.   If the answer is that DSC is another win condition, then I'd suggest Jace.   Jace's Brainstorm ability makes it a ready-made, highly synergistic win condition.   There are times when DT for Brainstorm is worth it, simply because you want to put Iona or Terrastodan into your deck.   Jace does that.   

I actually agree with a lot of this.  DSC has been mostly terrible whenever I tested it.  I also hate having 3 very different Oath creatures.

Regardless, this version may be great in the meta in which you're testing it.  I think its a good deck... I just wouldn't play it in a PA / NJ / NY tournament, although Brad piloted a relatively simliar list to a Top 4 last Saturday.

Currently I'm playing with 2x Jace, the card is much stronger than I first thought.  I'm playing 3 Drains atm to support Jace.  Its really that good; I've won nearly every game it resolved.

This post makes a great deal of sense to me.  The last creature I'd want to Oath up would be DSC.  He is far too easy to play around.

[Fortune]

If I were playing this deck, I'd cut DSC for Jace.   I only want to ever oath up Terra or Iona. 

It's really hard to Tinker those up, though, which is why we run it.  Tinker wins more games than Jace; against any Fish deck, all you need is Tinker-DSC, and their only out is Plowshares, assuming they even run it.  You counter the StP and win.

But isn't the idea of Oath that(in those matchups) you have 4 green tinkers?   In my testing with this deck, the risk of hitting DSC was unacceptably high in matchups where it matters.  There are too many situations and matchups where DSC is dead.  I readily appreciate the value of Tinker, but you still have the Time Vault combo, and you can always put DSC -- or any other artifact creature -- in your sideboard.   

Iona and Terrastodan are exceptional Oath targets.   Over the years since the printing of Forbidden Orchards we've witnessed the gradual evolution of Oath victory conditions.   Those creatures are now stronger than ever, and diluting the force of Iona or Terrastodan with DSC seems questionable in principle.  DSC didn't make the cut in 2004; I'm not sure why its good enough here.   If the answer is that DSC is another win condition, then I'd suggest Jace.   Jace's Brainstorm ability makes it a ready-made, highly synergistic win condition.   There are times when DT for Brainstorm is worth it, simply because you want to put Iona or Terrastodan into your deck.   Jace does that.   

I actually agree with a lot of this.  DSC has been mostly terrible whenever I tested it.  I also hate having 3 very different Oath creatures.

Regardless, this version may be great in the meta in which you're testing it.  I think its a good deck... I just wouldn't play it in a PA / NJ / NY tournament, although Brad piloted a relatively simliar list to a Top 4 last Saturday.

Currently I'm playing with 2x Jace, the card is much stronger than I first thought.  I'm playing 3 Drains atm to support Jace.  Its really that good; I've won nearly every game it resolved.

Would you mind posting your list?  I'd like to see what you moved around to accommodate the drains and jaces.

[voltron00x]

I put this list together Friday at work.  I haven't tested it all that much yet, but so far it's been solid in the games I've played:

4 Oath of Druids
1 Terastodon
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria 
1 Time Vault
1 Voltaic Key
1 Tezzeret, the Seeker

4 Force of Will
3 Mana Drain
2 Spell Pierce
2 Spell Snare

2 Jace, the Mind Scuptor
1 Brainstorm
1 Thirst for Knowledge
1 Gifts Ungiven
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Merchant Scroll

1 Time Walk
1 Timetwister
1 Krosan Reclamation
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Hurkyl's Recall

5 Mox
1 Black Lotus
1 Mana Crypt
1 Sol Ring

2 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
1 Volcanic Island
2 Island
4 Forbidden Orchard
1 Library Alexandria
2 Polluted Delta
1 Scalding Tarn
1 Flooded Strand
1 Misty Rainforest

Sideboard:
2 REB
2 Massacre
1 Rebuild
3 Yixlid Jailer
2 Pithing Needle
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Ravenous Trap
1 Trinisphere
1 Sphinx of the Steel Wind
1 Tinker

I've also tried...

MD: -1 Twister, -1 Rec for +1 Tinker, +1 Sphinx (opens up 2 SB slots, loses some consistency when you Oath, Twister is very good in a deck w/ Drains and Jace)
MD: -1 Twister, -1 Rec for +1 Terastodon, +1 (metagame slot)  [also tried the same thing but with 2x Hellkites in place of Terastodon]

I'm testing with Spell Snare b/c its awesome against Fish, but I'm by no means married to the card.  The version I played with Tinker and Sphinx main over the Twister combo used those two SB slots for Mindbreak Trap.