Terastodon Oath

[Smmenen]

Bojuka Bog!!! 

[voltron00x]

Bojuka Bog!!! 

Bog is just really poor compared to other options at the moment, at least related to Oath.

It's really just a metagame thing.  People are cheating on Jailer hate left and right, and Oath is uniquely suited to using it as a hate card.  The deck runs plenty of accelerants to power him out turn 1, plenty of counterspells to protect him, and you can side out one creature so that your Oaths bring you additional hate.  I think you need to run Needle since it answers many common anti-Oath cards, and i like to have at least two actual graveyard sweepers, so I went with Tormod's and Rav Trap (which you can get with Mystical and slightly increases your hate %).

[honestabe]

Has anyone tried See Beyond in Oath yet?

I've been running it as a 3-of and I fucking love it.  It turns lands and creatures into playable stuff.  I've only tested a 5-6 games, but I've been happy everytime I cast See Beyond.

[Tha Gunslinga]

Yeah, supposedly it's been working really well in it, but I'd just rather run broken stuff than something that costs 2 to draw 2, as a sorcery.  I also haven't really needed a draw engine in Oath with the new build; it has a brokenness engine that's far better than any unrestricted draw engine in Type 1.

[Fortune]

Would you mind posting your latest list Ben?  How are you faring against MUD? 

[Evenpence]

Would you mind posting your latest list Ben?  How are you faring against MUD?  

Using Ben's old list (i.e. Shay's list with a Show and Tell instead of LNL) workshop decks have been my best matchup in testing.  I'd say the matchup is at least 60-40 in Oath's favor, although I'd put that number closer to 70-30 tbh, it just sounds ridiculous.

You can even win through Chalice @ 2 game one via tinker (into DSC or vault), tezz, or show and tell.  Or, theoretically, you can hardcast one of your dudes, but that's not happening vs. shops.

The problem for shop decks is that Oath has infinite different ways to win, tinker is very good for them, and the main thing they need to resolve is only two mana.

[Cyberpunker]

I'm a bit worried of the builds with Metalworker combo. They can combo out very early too, roughly turn 2-3. So I always counter Metalworker or destroy it. But in theory I think Oath still has the upper hand because we run 5 Tinkers in addition to infinite turns.


I'm testing out the 15/15. He looks very promising.

[Fortune]

I'm a bit worried of the builds with Metalworker combo. They can combo out very early too, roughly turn 2-3. So I always counter Metalworker or destroy it. But in theory I think Oath still has the upper hand because we run 5 Tinkers in addition to infinite turns.


I'm testing out the 15/15. He looks very promising.

Did you take out the elephant altogether?  Are you running Dragon Breath? Tinker-bot?

[Cyberpunker]

Running 4 creatures with Show and Tell.

15/15
Elephant
Robot (Inkwell Leviathan for now)
Iona

[Tha Gunslinga]

Benjamin Carp
Team ICBM
Half Savage/Half Sadist

    4 Forbidden Orchard
    4 Misty Rainforest
    1 Library of Alexandria
    1 Tolarian Academy
    1 Forest
    2 Island
    1 Tropical Island
    3 Underground Sea
    1 Mox Sapphire
    1 Mox Emerald
    1 Mox Pearl
    1 Mox Jet
    1 Mox Ruby
    1 Black Lotus
    1 Mana Crypt
    1 Sol Ring
    4 Oath of Druids
    1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
    1 Tinker
    1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
    1 Darksteel Colossus
    1 Terastodon
    1 Tezzeret the Seeker
    1 Time Vault
    1 Voltaic Key
    4 Spell Pierce
    3 Mana Drain
    4 Force of Will
    1 Sensei's Divining Top
    1 Yawgmoth's Will
    1 Regrowth
    1 Time Walk
    1 Mystical Tutor
    1 Merchant Scroll
    1 Vampiric Tutor
    1 Demonic Tutor
    1 Gifts Ungiven
    1 Thirst for Knowledge
    1 Brainstorm
    1 Ancestral Recall

// Sideboard:
SB: 1 Terastodon
SB: 2 Show and Tell
SB: 3 Nature's Claim
SB: 1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
SB: 1 Tezzeret, the Seeker
SB: 1 Perish
SB: 1 Massacre
SB: 1 Nature's Ruin
SB: 2 Yixlid Jailer
SB: 2 Tormod's Crypt

Won another Mox today.

[hvndr3d y34r h3x]

half savae/ Half Sadist   710-REB
you seem to have forgotten the deck name.

[PETER FLUGZEUG]

Mr. Carp:

A: may I ask what the 2 additional planeswalkers in the SB were for?
In which matches did they come in, for what, and how did they perform?

B: Seeing your SB suggests there shouldn't be too much dredge in that tournament, but you expected a lot of uwg fish. True?
Would you perhaps add more dredge hate if there was a lot of it in the meta? Trap for example.

[Tha Gunslinga]

The Planeswalkers were to have extra threats in the mirror and vs other control decks.  They were fine, though I don't know if I'd run them again.  Definitely the Jace though; it was very strong.  There was only one Ichorid deck, and I didn't expect much if any, otherwise I would have had more Ichorid hate.  I faced Noble Fish in the finals last time, and expected to see a lot of it this time, which is why I SB'd the 3 black spells.  I posted a report in the Tournament Report forum that talks about what I faced and explains some card choices.

[Bongo]

What are the bad matchups for this deck? Which cards you don't wanna see on the other side of the table?

[Tha Gunslinga]

I don't really want to face Ichorid or MUD, but otherwise I don't know what matchups are bad; I haven't had any trouble with anything yet.

[Phele]

I already posted it in the tournament results section but I think it belongs here as well. I asked this before, but with the inclusion of Jace and so the fourth wincondition in my build I think this could be discussed again.

Is the three creatures configuration really needed? I play a very similar list and am very happy with one Robot and just one Oath creature so far. Basically compared to the common Elefant Oath builds it is +1 Reclamation, +1 Twister and -1 Creature, -1 Thirst. A few notes on that:

-   The creature in the hand is much more useless than Reclamation. I don’t want to say that Reclamation is a powerful draw, for sure not, but at least you can use it. Thirst is the more flexible and overall better card than Twister. But Twister is potentially more powerful, a bomb in the Dredge matchup and can be used quite clever in certain matchups.

-   What I really dislike about playing no Reclamation is that your third game plan (Tez-Vault-Key) gets less straightforward. Sure you can still play it, but after you oathed it happened to me quite often that I needed a card in the grave and couldn’t get my hand on it anymore. It’s not that you don’t win after you oathed and/or tinkered. You do it for sure the majority of the games. But it is just, and maybe this is just my personal playstyle, that the deck feels a bit incomplete.

-   But what I think is one of the biggest disadvantages of playing no Reclamation is that you can’t go down to just Iona anymore. I board out all creatures but Iona against Drains and Rituals all the time, making Oath a real bomb in this matchup. Without Reclamation this seems to be very risky, as there is a good possibility to get decked or to have no possible way to win anymore, if Iona gets removed.

-   A good argument for three creatures has been the fear of Sadistic Sacrament effects and being already invulnerable against it with your maindeck configuration. But after adding Jace instead of Rebuild in my list this danger has almost disappeared, as I do play now two creatures and two Planeswalker.

-   With two Creatures it already is a bit random, what you oath first. But with three this randomness even increases. Oathing up Sphinx first and then Terastodon makes a difference against lets say TPS. With for example the configuration of Sphinx/Iona you are at least sure that you get a good creature against every matchup by the second Oath activation: Sphinx against Null Rods and Workshops, Iona against Drains and Rituals (and Null Rods for sure as well).

What do you all think about this case? I appreciate the effort Rich Shay and Gunslinga have put in their Elefant Oath list. I just want to discuss, if this could be a way to improve the list.

[Tha Gunslinga]

Reclamation is terrible, and having 3 guys means you can have one in hand and still safely Oath without worrying about decking yourself.  Krosan Reclamation is counterable and is vulnerable to graveyard hate.  I have never had a problem with which creature I Oath out.  Post-board you can take out whatever is weak in that matchup, but even against TPS or whatever, Oathing up Darksteel means you'll kill them in 2 turns.  Even Iona vs TPS isn't necessarily an auto-win unless you have counter backup.  I like having both Iona and Terastodon in the deck, as they give you options.  Iona can fly, meaning that you can avoid ugly creature standoffs if you're forced to give your opponent a lot of tokens, and don't want them to just gang-block the DSC and then Oath up something.  You do also have the option of setting up with creature you want to hit, if you have Vampiric Tutor in hand, or that creature plus Brainstorm/Jace.  

You also need 4 win conditions maindeck to avoid dying to Sadistic Sacrament/Jester's Cap/Earwig Squad, and I don't count Jace as a win condition because it's so slow and difficult to set up.  3 creatures and Tezzeret are your 4 win conditions.  2 creatures, Tezzeret, and Krosan Reclamation will not beat Sadistic Sacrament.  One of the deck's strengths is the ability to ignore Sadistic Sacrament or Jester's Cap.  I have won games where my opponent played Sadistic Sacrament game 1 and I just let it resolve, even though I had multiple counters in hand.

Terastodon Oath is good because it doesn't care what the opponent is playing.  The deck isn't really weak to anything.  Removing a creature for Krosan Reclamation weakens it vs graveyard hate and vs Jester's Cap effects.  I would rather keep it as is, and strong.

[PETER FLUGZEUG]

The Planeswalkers were to have extra threats in the mirror and vs other control decks.  They were fine, though I don't know if I'd run them again.  Definitely the Jace though; it was very strong.  There was only one Ichorid deck, and I didn't expect much if any, otherwise I would have had more Ichorid hate.  I faced Noble Fish in the finals last time, and expected to see a lot of it this time, which is why I SB'd the 3 black spells.  I posted a report in the Tournament Report forum that talks about what I faced and explains some card choices.

I tested your build yesterday and smashed all the opponents (elves combo... perished; mirror: G1 quick orchard oath win, G2 Tezzeret style while he was trying to win the orchard war. drains and the additional jace were bonkers; TPS: I had insane hands, he lost to forces and jace, the topdeck doomer.) Against combo I'd like to have something additional, maybe duresses back... do you think 2 sweepers would suffice? My board looks like this at the moment:

2 yixlid jailer
1 ravenous trap
1 tormod's crypt
(Dredge)

2 show and tell
1 Terrastodon
1 perish
1 massacre
(critters; the show and tell plan, could it be used for other matchups?)

1 jace, the everything doer
2 duress (?) (Drains, mirror, TPS)

3 nature's claim (everything brown, NOT for the mirror)

I'm still feeling bad about the ichorid hate, but I think something's needed to replace at least two oaths in the mirror, and a creature, so I'm going with 1 jace, 2 duress, as they're good against combo, too. I think we're still equipped rather well against fish with the show and tell plan as well as the two sweepers.
Perish gets rid of everything, including elephants and Terrastodon, while massacre can be free and gets rid of everything except the aforementioned and trygon/goyf.

My robot of choice is 11/11 at the moment.

[Tha Gunslinga]

2 Duress in the board should be fine.  You don't really need the 3 sweeper, you can probably win the Fish matchup without them, but I like having them because Fish just has so much hate for you.  I always bring in 2 Nature's Claim in the mirror, because they have Key/Vault too, and Nature's Claim will always be useful; you can kill Key/Vault pieces, you can kill Sensei's Top in response to their draw with it, you can hit their artifact mana if they're manascrewed, you can kill your own Mana Crypt if you need to, you can gain 4 life to stay alive another turn, and of course if you get into an Orchard war and are losing you can kill the Oath with it.

[Phele]

Reclamation is terrible, and having 3 guys means you can have one in hand and still safely Oath without worrying about decking yourself.  Krosan Reclamation is counterable and is vulnerable to graveyard hate.  I have never had a problem with which creature I Oath out.  Post-board you can take out whatever is weak in that matchup, but even against TPS or whatever, Oathing up Darksteel means you'll kill them in 2 turns.  Even Iona vs TPS isn't necessarily an auto-win unless you have counter backup.  I like having both Iona and Terastodon in the deck, as they give you options.  Iona can fly, meaning that you can avoid ugly creature standoffs if you're forced to give your opponent a lot of tokens, and don't want them to just gang-block the DSC and then Oath up something.  You do also have the option of setting up with creature you want to hit, if you have Vampiric Tutor in hand, or that creature plus Brainstorm/Jace.  

You also need 4 win conditions maindeck to avoid dying to Sadistic Sacrament/Jester's Cap/Earwig Squad, and I don't count Jace as a win condition because it's so slow and difficult to set up.  3 creatures and Tezzeret are your 4 win conditions.  2 creatures, Tezzeret, and Krosan Reclamation will not beat Sadistic Sacrament.  One of the deck's strengths is the ability to ignore Sadistic Sacrament or Jester's Cap.  I have won games where my opponent played Sadistic Sacrament game 1 and I just let it resolve, even though I had multiple counters in hand.

Terastodon Oath is good because it doesn't care what the opponent is playing.  The deck isn't really weak to anything.  Removing a creature for Krosan Reclamation weakens it vs graveyard hate and vs Jester's Cap effects.  I would rather keep it as is, and strong.

Yes Reclamation is terrible, but isn’t a creature in your hand even more terrible.

Sure, the Reclamation combo is vulnerable to graveyard hate, but you don’t have to go for it, if you expect that. You still have the two creatures which are totally enough.

I do agree that Collossus can have its value against TPS/Drains, but I definitely prefer to oath up nothing but Iona in these matchups. Yes, you can still lose after that, but it is more than unlikely.

I didn’t really get your point about Jace, as it is a valuable wincondition. For sure you don’t go for Jace after they sad saced your two creatures and Tez. You go for Vault-Key and then set up the Jace kill easily. So in my eyes Sad Sac isn’t an issue for my proposed configuration as well. Same counts for the argument about the graveyard vulnerability in my eyes. Elefant Oath or Two-Creature-Tez-Oath are both as vulnerable to it imo (or should I say invulnerable) . With Krosan I at least can save some of my cards instant wise against something like Crypt.

[Cyberpunker]

I think the Ichorid matchup should be like how it was with Tezzeret. Game 1 is very hard and you have to rush for the Creature or KeyVault.  Game 2 you side in you 6-8 hate cards and give them a very hard time.

I also think that MUD is pretty easy with Oath. Oath costs 2 and all your creatures are bigger than theirs.

I think Krosan Reclaim is very dead card while a creature with Show and Tell maindeck (sorry this is the last time I will repeat myself ) is not bad.

I don't think you need Duress in the s/b because Nature's Claim will work very well against Tezz and Mirror. Unless ANT or TPS is very very active in your meta...even then my experience tells me that if you can counter ANT or the 2nd Cabal Ritual, you will be fine. Also, Nature's Claim gives you life... if that matters. Vs TPS or ANT I side out Emrakul, Swamp for Hurkyl's Recall and Nature's Claim.

[Tha Gunslinga]

Yes Reclamation is terrible, but isn’t a creature in your hand even more terrible.

Not when you play Mana Drain.  Hardcasting Terastodon isn't very difficult, and even the other two aren't impossible.

[Phele]

What are the bad matchups for this deck? Which cards you don't wanna see on the other side of the table?

You don't want to see Remora, which can be devasting against you. Fortunately Noble and Aggro MUD keep this decktype in check.

[Tha Gunslinga]

Remora as in Shaymora?  Because that's not a bad matchup at all.  Let them draw cards; their Commandeers can't hurt your Oaths, and you can usually just hit fast and hard enough to blow them out.  I faced Tezz with maindeck Remoras in the top 4, and it was pretty easy to beat.

[Phele]

I faced Tezz with maindeck Remoras in the top 4, and it was pretty easy to beat.

No not like in Shaymore.

In any sort of Tez/Drain Tendrils control with Remora (out of board or maindeck). Good for you that you have great results against these sort of deck, but I made totally different experiences. For me Remora control has been a tough matchup.

[Evenpence]

I faced Tezz with maindeck Remoras in the top 4, and it was pretty easy to beat.

No not like in Shaymore.

In any sort of Tez/Drain Tendrils control with Remora (out of board or maindeck). Good for you that you have great results against these sort of deck, but I made totally different experiences. For me Remora control has been a tough matchup.

I PM'd Rich Shay a while ago about deck matchups and he also has said that Tezz w/ Remoras is Elephant Oath's worst matchup.  So you're probably not coming out of left field here. 

Ben probably has a firm grasp on the deck and can pull out wins vs. the deck, however.  I wouldn't write it off as anything close to unwinnable.  It seems Oath is a very balanced deck with the metagame right now, easily capable of beating any deck in the format but not having swingy matchups vs. any deck.

[Cyberpunker]

vs Remora Tezzeret

It shouldnt be too hard IMO. You are running the same number of counters they are as well as the same broken spells...They also have to counter your Oath in the same way you should (but depends) counter their remora..

[credmond]

The Remora Tezzeret matchup is hard. Its not just because of remora. Its also because of repeal. Oath has to pass the turn to combo and that gives repeal the window of opportunity to cantrip put oath back in the oath players hands and other shenanigans. I have played both Oath vs Remora Tezzerett and Remora Tezzerett v Oath and yes Remora Tezzerett is running cards that are great on their own but are especially great against oath.

[Cyberpunker]

I'm not sure if it is as scary as people are making it out to be. Repealing Oath costs them 3 mana. If they are maintaining Remora, then they are also tying up their mana too. MWS results have given me a positive record...but that is MWS so I don't really know the matchup.

And if they do repeal Oath, you can play it again on your turn. They will have tapped 3 lands at the very least and you can try to win the counter war. Bouncing only stalls them and costs them 3 mana, and usually that is enough to stop them from going off. The key weakness is that the 1-2 cards they draw with Confidant. If they are counters or brokeness, they can clinch the victory. If not, they will lose.

And that is just the worst situation. What if Oath resolves first before Confidant? They will have to repeal it and then hope to counter it without any card advantage at their side of the table.

Here is the list I am taking to the next Vintage tournament:

Win:
Iona
Emrakul
Elephant
Inkwell
Tinker
4 Oath
1 Key
1 Vault

Awesomeness:
Ancestral Recall
Time Walk
Yawgmoth's Will
Demonic Tutor
Vampiric Tutor

Protection:
4 Mana Drain
4 Force of Will
4 Spell Pierce

Plan B Packet:
1 Show and Tell

So So but still necessary:
Merchant's Scroll
Mystical Tutor
Brainstorm
Ponder

The Universal Vintage Blue Deck Bomb  :
Gifts Ungiven  

Mana:
4 Polluted Delta
3 Island
1 Swamp
2 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
4 Forbidden Orchard
5 Mox
1 Black Lotus
1 Mana Crypt (sigh...)
1 Sol Ring
1 Library of Alexandria
1 Tolarian Academy

Sideboard:

Die Selkie
3 Massacre (Muahhaha I do this for free and win the counter war because I have mana untapped vs your Dazes and Spell Pierces!)
3 Deathmark (Everything in their deck dies to this...and it costs 1. The only thing I can ask for is that it becomes an instant...but no worries if that never happens)

Die Dredge
4 Rav Trap (The best dredge hate in the world!!!)
2 Planar Void (better than Yixlid because it reliably comes down turn 1)

Die Workshop/Tezzeret/Mirror
2 Nature's Claim (We are not Oathing until I am ready!!!)
1 Hurkyl's Recall (Important that I/We do not lose vs early Tinker)

Okay there you have it folks! Let's discuss!

[Phele]

Interesting approach, nice work.

- Is just Show and Tell enough to use/get rid of the creature in your hand? No Brainstorm?

- Didn't you ever feel the need to have at least any removal in the maindeck? Oathing up/Show and Tell Terastodon to remove something is not soo easy if you really need to remove something, even though you can set it up with Vamp.

- With four different kind of creatures couldn't be Imperial Seal an option? I know sorcery speed sucks but with all your counters it should be possible to defend your way to oath up the creature you want.

- What about an extra Show and Tell in the board instead of one of the black fish solutions?

- Is your meta very fish heavy? Cause you are ill equipped against Noble, but so so against Shops. No basic Forest hurts against shops and even though Oath already is strong against Shops, "just" two Natures Claim and one Hurkyl might be not enough.

- Planar Void is great in this build as you are not that heavily relying on using your grave as a ressource. Could be an 3/3 Trap/Void split be an option?


Again: Well done.