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Author Topic: Winning a Sapphire in Bluebell (4/3)  (Read 9560 times)
personalbackfire
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« on: April 04, 2010, 12:20:39 am »

I couldn't remember all of the games, but this is what I could remember...

About a week ago, I decided that despite my distaste for the format, I would play in the double mox blue bell event. I call up Jeff Folinus saying we should play GWSx, but with Force over Duress.

This might not make sense if you don't follow the mid atlantic metagame too much. Pretty much, duress is the nut low right now. Mud and Bant Fish have taken over as the top 2 decks making duress terrible. My logic is if I can win against the two I should be fine. I am not terribly worried against blue decks since I have bob, multiple tendrils, and forces main. This is the list we settled on. We did  little testing but felt comfortable, being as we are both experienced Tendrils players.

3 Underground Sea
4 Polluted Delta
2 Island
3 Swamp
1 Scalding Tarn
1 Tolarian Academy
4 Dark Confidant
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Emerald
1 Sol Ring
1 Mana Crypt
1 Lotus Petal
4 Force of Will
4 Dark Ritual
2 Cabal Ritual
3 Tendrils of Agony
1 Demonic Consultation
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Gifts Ungiven
1 Merchant Scroll
1 Chain of Vapor
1 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Rebuild
1 Necropotence
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Brainstorm
1 Time Walk
1 Ponder
1 Jace the Mind Sculptor
1 Memory Jar
1 Tinker
1 Timetwister
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Yawgmoth's Bargain

Sideboard
1 Slaughter Pact
1 Sphinx of the Steel Wind
1 Island
1 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Energy Flux
4 Duress
1 Extirpate
1 Yixlid Jailer
4 Leyline of the Void

Bluebell 45ish players.
rd 1: GW Fish
He gets down a truebeliever. I attempt my hand at a bob, but it gets STP. In a few turns or so I am able to just chain of vapor the believer and set up a will.  G2 I am able to just tinker for Sphinx, while having an active necro  and get there.

1-0

rd 2: Dark times
g1: I keep a pretty loose hand, as does my opponent. He starts by pithing needle naming polluted delta. This sets me back a turn as i have another one in my hand. I eventually get a jar down and pass. I could have cracked it and had one land untapped, having already playing my land but that seems bad. However, I have a feeling that he might have vamp or demonic for the null rod in his deck. This is confirmed when he vamps eot then casts Null rod. The game was pretty much lost there.
g2:  He has turn two hexmage Dark depths. I tutor for chain. This is followed by him demonic consulting for duress. He then tries to duress me. I attempt to chain his hexmage in resp but he makes the good play and makes his token.  I lose pretty handily.
1-1

rd3: Shop Painter
G1 he gets an early painter down, then a grindsone down but is stuck on 2 active mana. I have a bob down that has been feeding me cards for 2 turns when I drop it into 3rd gear and play will and just win.
g2: I side in Slaughter pact and Energy flux, he has turn one combo pieces, turn two win. My bob in hand was looking really good until that happened.
g3: This game is sorta funny, I start with hurks, rebuild, mox, time walk, landx2. I play land mox timewalk. then drop a land and pass. I cant exactly remember but I hurks him eot after he drops some moxs and lodestone. On his turn he plays his hand again and passes. I draw Vamp and pass, take 5 he drops grindstone and passes. I think I might Gifts during this turn, but I am not sure for what. On my turn I draw energy flux so I pass. I take 5 more then EOT Rebuild him. On my turn I drop the EFLUX and pass. He keeps his  lodestone around and sacs everything else. Apparently he can just kill me but neglects to and passes. I upkeep vamp with my jet and emerald then play rit will, replay all the moxs and lotus that was in my gy and win with tendrils.

2-1

Rd 4: MuD
g1 I keep an alright hand on the draw, it has lotus necro, and alot of basics pretty much. He plays a sphere go, I play land lotus go. He plays another sphere and passes.  I play land tap for a sapphire then try to cast necro for 4, when it would cost 5. It was quite the misplay, and he plays tanglewire next turn and i just scoop soon there after.
g2: I don't really remember this one, im on the play and win.
g3: He mulls and plays wasteland mana vault. I play lotus,  mox then academy. I tap academy and play mystical for will. I then brainstorm with the remaining mana for will. I then cast rit off the lotus and play will replaying the rit, lotus mystical for tendrils, brainstorm it into my hand and win.  

3-1

rd 5: 75/75 Mirror against Jeff Folinus.
g1: He mulls to 5 while I keep lotus, mox, bob, and 4 land. I get a turn one bob to stick then get a jar down. I crack with lotus and a land up. In my jar hand I recall, but don't really get anywhere, so I just cast the Necro and he scoops.
g2: My hand is bonkers, I play a turn one gifts that gets me some fast mana and a demonic tutor. I drop the lotus petal in my hand and  tutor for the will, then demonic consult for a ritual which was the 7th card down. I then cast rit and will and win from there.

4-1

rd 6: Dredge
Game one I timetwister and win on turn one, first die roll I won.
g2: My turn one jailer sticks around for enough time for me to assemble the combo kill.  I sided out the 4 force and 2 bounce spell for 4 leylines and 2 jailers. You cant really support having force in the deck while boarding out so many blue cards, not to mention its just kinda bad against dredge.

5-1

1/4 finals tezz
g1: He leads with library. I get down a bob and decide to timetwist. I have a black floating and hit a mox and bob on my twister hand so I play another bob. On his turn he drops 8 goblins from ETW and passes. I really did not see that one coming. I attack with a bob, he takes it. I then play timewalk. On my extra turn I attack with bob bobs and once again he takes. My life total is at 8, I think, so by not blocking he guarentees a win on his turn. The 6 damage in the past 2 turns he has taken has given me enough room for a mini tendrils to finish him off.

g2: I duress him early on and see drain/force/misD/Will and some other stuff. I play 2 bob while he isn't really doing much. I then get a jar into play and break it on my turn. At this point I have pretty much fogotten about the Will in his hand since I am jaring. I jar into a good few cards but not enough for an obvious win. I have jace and a topdeck tutor so I can potentially make things happen. Instead I decide to fatesteal him and pass with my 2 bobs in play. This is a big mistake because he has will in his original hand and one other card which I didnt know. However, I didn't even think about the will that could potentially blow me out. I should have brainstormed and tried to get there this turn as to not give him a chance to. After we discard our jar hands he casts the mystery card which was gifts. He makes a  pile and I look at my notes and ask him, you have will in ur hand? The answer was yes and I get blown out.

g3: He gets a bob down and counters my ritual that was going to cast necro. On his turn he flips inkwell to his bob then thoughtseizes me and takes necro. EOT I consult for bob and its like the 9th card, but I do remove lotus. After our bob standstill he has taken some more damage putting him in mini tendrils range. I have a crit in hand and draw demonic tutor. I cast the threshold crit which resolves, then cast the demonic, which gets tendrils that puts him at one life. On his turn he flips Tezz. Not that it matters in the case but he should have forced the DT as it gives him a better shot at living, but as it turns out he dies either way.

6-1

semi finals: Mud
g1: I play land mox timewalk, then on my timewalk turn cast timetwister. The turn after I play bob. Bob  flips a rebuild, then a hurks the first two turns its out. I am able to bounce, then bounce again and then will and win. Im not too clear on this match
g2I mull to 5. My hand is Island, Swamp, Lotus, Sphinx, X. He starts out with a chalice at one. I play my Island and Lotus and pass. I was really lucky this whole match and that didn't stop here, as I drew bob. So I played my swamp, Bob and passed. From here another thorn and chalice at 2 gets played. Bob gets in there every turn and yields me a ton of lands. At some point he gets down a staff and taps my bob so I cant attack, lucky for me I can hardcast my sphinx. He is limited on mana, so has to use his ancient tomb to activate staff so everyturn he takes 2 from atomb keeping my sphinx down and 2 from my bob. I win a few turns with a tendrils in hand.

7-1

finals: Bant Fish
g1 He mulls to 5 and plays a hiearch and go. I had mulled to 6 but drew recall, so I did that. A turn or so later I am able to gifts for fast mana and drop bargain. Bargain draws me into a ton of good spells non of which being a tutor for tendrils till I get down to 5 life. I am able to play academy a ton of artifacts bounce them all then cast a rit and tendrils for the win.

g2: I punt this one pretty good. He has a team and I have a bob and set up a gifts, which was pretty hard from where I was sitting. I couldn't think of any piles that would give me the necessary 9 storm, so I set up a bad pile. The problem was I had like one ritual and a consultation as my only business spells.  He gave me time walk and tinker. I look at my board to see only one blue mana open which was frustrating so I tinker. However I am at 4 life right now. He swings for 2 with an exalted selkie and I flip tendrils over from.my bob.

g3: I mull to 6, he starts with a hierach. I have the recall again to make this unfair. I then drop a lotus petal and pass. He attempts to play cannonist, which meets my force. I then vamp for tinker, then tinker for sphinx on my turn. The game is over a few turns later.

8-1

Some changes:
- 2 tinker/jar from the maindeck. I was not really impressed with it, and haven't been ever to be honest. If i had to suggest what to play over it, it would prob be Grim and FoF.

- 1 ich hate + 1 Tinker in the sb. Tinker sphinx is really good right now and a big reason I won the tournament. Every time It hit play vs Mud or Fish I felt like I couldn't lose.

Matchups: (mostly based off the tournament, and some limited testing we did)
Dredge: Storm usually has a good dredge matchup since it can win game ones. This deck, although relying on bob more so then any other storm deck, still has the ability to just win.

Bant Fish: Thinking its prob in this decks favor. The only two cards you really care about are force of will and spell pierce. Spell pierce can be played around and force isn't the biggest of deals. Some lists are also rocking the aven mindcensor which could be a problem.

Tezz: Probably even to slightly favored in tezz favor depending on number of duress/ mystic remoras they are playing. This pretty much comes down to having bob out. Bob will single handily win you this match if you play correctly.

Mud: Slightly favored. One of the biggest strengths of the deck is the manabase. 5 Basics is a lot. Combine that with forces and 3 maindeck bounce, the matchup isn't too bad. Lodestone is the worst card for you, but thats pretty much what made their deck again.
« Last Edit: April 07, 2010, 08:52:24 am by personalbackfire » Logged
desolutionist
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« Reply #1 on: April 04, 2010, 03:06:22 am »

Awesome job man. ^5
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« Reply #2 on: April 04, 2010, 09:03:34 am »

Hey, congrats again. You definitely earned that win against me in the finals.
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« Reply #3 on: April 04, 2010, 10:21:28 am »

Congrats Steve.  This is why the Tiger shouldn't play Extended...
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« Reply #4 on: April 04, 2010, 01:02:51 pm »

Congrats on the finish.

I call up Jeff Folinus saying we should play GWSx, but with Force over Duress.

This might not make sense if you don't follow the mid atlantic metagame too much. Pretty much, duress is the nut low right now. Mud and Bant Fish have taken over as the top 2 decks making duress terrible. My logic is if I can win against the two I should be fine. I am not terribly worried against blue decks since I have bob, multiple tendrils, and forces main.

Some questions about this decision. Have you considered thoughtseize? It's better vs. Fish and decent against Shops. Was the 17 cards enough for FoW, in other words, did you sometimes have trouble finding a blue card to pitch (or that the card you had to pitch was a crucial one)? Would you run FoW if you'd run the deck again? And would you make any other changes?
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« Reply #5 on: April 04, 2010, 01:19:12 pm »

When Steve says Duress I think he means Duress effects in general aren't where you want to be in a meta of MUD/Fish.  For sure Seize is much better than Duress as a whole right now and should play as many of them over Duress as your deck can support but when a Workshop deck plays Resistor pass on the play you'll be wishing that Duress was Force of Will.  And from Fish decks most of the cards they cast are irrelevant so having a Force for the card that does matter is usually good enough.  Also not needing to tie up your mana casting Duress instead of using it for another lines of play is an additional benefit.  But Duress has the clear advantage of bering much better against blue decks which is why its in our board, also the information from Duress lets you play with more information.  As for not having Blue cards it comes up on occasion esp post-board vs. Blue decks since your removing at least 2 bounce spells and just bringing in black spells.  But I think that Force is that much stronger in the meta that its worth running a couple more marginal blue spells.
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« Reply #6 on: April 04, 2010, 01:28:04 pm »

Congrats on the finish.

I call up Jeff Folinus saying we should play GWSx, but with Force over Duress.

This might not make sense if you don't follow the mid atlantic metagame too much. Pretty much, duress is the nut low right now. Mud and Bant Fish have taken over as the top 2 decks making duress terrible. My logic is if I can win against the two I should be fine. I am not terribly worried against blue decks since I have bob, multiple tendrils, and forces main.

Some questions about this decision. Have you considered thoughtseize? It's better vs. Fish and decent against Shops. Was the 17 cards enough for FoW, in other words, did you sometimes have trouble finding a blue card to pitch (or that the card you had to pitch was a crucial one)? Would you run FoW if you'd run the deck again? And would you make any other changes?

I was going to post but then Jeff chimed in and answered most of your questions in a better light then what I would have had to say. Additionally, if the metagame stays the same I would keep playing forces. I think force is just better right now. If a lot of Tezz comes back into the picture I might look at reconsidering duress in the main over force, or potentially playing more of a Bob TPS. I think it really depends on the metagame. The reason I played Bobs and Forces was because I thought they would give me the best chance at beating the expected metagame. If it switches where I really need duress and bob isn't as needed or something like that, maybe I'll go back to playing standard TPS. I don't look at playing storm as playing a certain deck (TPS vs GWSx for example), I look at it as playing storm using the best cards that will beat my expected meta. Hope this helps, feel free to disagree with me. I am interested of your opinion on Force in the deck.

As for what changes I would make, I would cut tinker/jar from the main deck. I don't really think it is too great as passing with it usually leads to it getting bounced or null rod'd out or something like that. I have never been impressed with it but we felt the deck needed more "bombs." As I said I would probably start testing out FoF and Grim in those two slots. You really do need to add a blue spell if you continue to play Forces main to support it so thats why it would be FoF. With that said you really still do want tinker/sphinx right now so adding a tinker to the sb over a a dredge hate piece would be fine. The other thing I was considering doing was cutting the suicide pact for a smother. Smother pretty much kills the same creatures you want suicide pact to kill, but has the benefit of being able to pay the cost now. Every time I used slaughter pact yesterday I wish I could have just payed the 2B now instead of on my upkeep as it sets me a turn behind.
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« Reply #7 on: April 04, 2010, 03:22:25 pm »

Ah and I forgot: how was Jace? It does not seem a bit awkward in a combo deck. For 4 mana you usually want a bomb that wins the game with a high %, but maybe the Jace Brainstorm effect is that powerful with topdeck tutors?
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« Reply #8 on: April 04, 2010, 05:25:10 pm »

Ah and I forgot: how was Jace? It does not seem a bit awkward in a combo deck. For 4 mana you usually want a bomb that wins the game with a high %, but maybe the Jace Brainstorm effect is that powerful with topdeck tutors?

Congrats Steve.

I'm curious how he was for you as well for the rest of the tournament. When you fate sealed me in our game I immediately knew I had another turn, but expected that 2nd bob to be a duress effect to grab will.

Duncan, you should check out the deck Jeremy Beaver has been playing. It has been a house in games we have tested. I think it is the deck Dominic t8ed with in this tournament. I think he calls it JaceStorm.
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« Reply #9 on: April 04, 2010, 07:32:46 pm »

Congrats on winning it all. In game 1 you went land mox timewalk then turn 2 was land twist then bob the turn after
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« Reply #10 on: April 04, 2010, 09:10:31 pm »

@everyone: thanks for the congrats I appreciate it.

@ Jace: I honestly have no idea how good he is in the deck or not. To be honest, we haven't played enough games where he has showed up to make any sort of conclusion. The only time I played him the whole tournament was in top 8, where I misplayed him for a loss. Based off that he seemed strong and could have potentially given me the win, but I am not sure. The rest of the time I was boarding him out against mud, or pitching him to force.

@halo: Thanks I updated my post, job well done yourself!
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« Reply #11 on: April 04, 2010, 10:37:54 pm »

Year of the Tiger!  Year of the Tiger!

Oh, I totally led with Wasteland -> Mana Vault game 3.  Had it been a Workshop instead, you'd have been staring down a Lodestone Golem (and obviously Tinker -> Big Man'd instead).
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« Reply #12 on: April 05, 2010, 12:12:38 am »

Your list plays so many high casting cost cards.  Has flipping force, memory jar, jace, gifts ever been a big problem?
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« Reply #13 on: April 05, 2010, 12:52:15 am »

g2: I punt this one pretty good.

I couldn't see your hand, but from the Gifts pile you made, it seemed like a great play.  Flipping the Tendrils to Bob was sad, but you put yourself in a good position to win the game next turn.  I think I heard Alan saying something like if you got all mana you could have gotten storm to do it, but I don't know if there were enough mana sources in your deck to do that.  Black Lotus was in your graveyard, and you would have had to get a mox or something similar -- pretty sure you didn't have the mana available to Tendrils him out if you just would have gotten a mox or mana crypt.

Drit / Crit / Mana Crypt / ?

That would have been your Gifts pile had you gone for all mana.

For everyone who doesn't know personalbackfire, lemme just say a few things about this dude:

1)  This guy is an exceptional player, although he'd never tell you that himself.  I saw tons of plays where he made the correct move without knowing what was in his opponents hand -- although I swear he knew somehow.  He can probably see mirror reflections off glasses.  Very Happy

2)  Dude is super humble too -- after his finals opponent extends the hand, he wishes him well then talks about all the savage misplays he made, lol.  His opponent is like, 'No dude, you played really well," and he's like "Nah man, it happens to me again, my deck is really good and saves me from my misplays."

Anyway man, great finish at the tournament, and good luck in the future.  Hope to see you at future Blue Bells, and congratulations on the Mox Sapphire.
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« Reply #14 on: April 05, 2010, 01:15:11 am »

2)  Dude is super humble too -- after his finals opponent extends the hand, he wishes him well then talks about all the savage misplays he made, lol.  His opponent is like, 'No dude, you played really well," and he's like "Nah man, it happens to me again, my deck is really good and saves me from my misplays."

I felt like my first Oath Salvager build went like that.  Misplays and bad plays all day, but my deck is forgiving and has 37 outs.
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« Reply #15 on: April 05, 2010, 03:21:14 am »

GJ btw. I was wondering where did Senseis Divining Top went? Did you replace it with Jace to increase your blue count? But I think running a top over Grim tutor is always better. It scalps your hand and save yourself from bobs.
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« Reply #16 on: April 05, 2010, 06:33:57 am »

Your list plays so many high casting cost cards.  Has flipping force, memory jar, jace, gifts ever been a big problem?

No it really has not. Even if it was a problem the deck has 3 tendrils available so you can just mini tendrils and keep on going with the game. A game is mentioned a post or two below yours where I flipped tendrils to lose the game but I was at 2 life after an exalted Selkie attack, so I didn't do the math but it seems reasonable that I won't live through my upkeep anyways.

I couldn't see your hand, but from the Gifts pile you made, it seemed like a great play.  Flipping the Tendrils to Bob was sad, but you put yourself in a good position to win the game next turn.  I think I heard Alan saying something like if you got all mana you could have gotten storm to do it, but I don't know if there were enough mana sources in your deck to do that.  Black Lotus was in your graveyard, and you would have had to get a mox or something similar -- pretty sure you didn't have the mana available to Tendrils him out if you just would have gotten a mox or mana crypt.

Drit / Crit / Mana Crypt / ?

That would have been your Gifts pile had you gone for all mana.

Thanks for the compliments, are you going to start playing more again?

To be honest I don't remember the exact game state. A bunch of people came up to me after with their versions of gift piles that might have gotten there but at the time when I was doing the piles it seemed like I was going to be one storm off winning. I had mana crypt in play, as my only artifact, my list doesn't play Mana vault so thats a no go, Tolarian is a no go, your saying lotus was in my gy so thats a no go, so that mana pile begins to look like Rit/Crit/x/x when I couldn't figure out the other two cards to allow me to win. I knew if I tinkered up sphinx and got passed the turn and survived there was a reasonable chance I would win since I accompanied that with Timewalk but I'm sure there is a gifts pile that just lets me win on the spot. I believe that I settled on DT, Rit,(I didn't have thresh), Tinker, Timewalk.

GJ btw. I was wondering where did Senseis Divining Top went? Did you replace it with Jace to increase your blue count? But I think running a top over Grim tutor is always better. It scalps your hand and save yourself from bobs.

The original list was 59 cards and I wanted Imperial seal and Top or neither, so I went with neither. A lot of the time people play top they do it because they are worried about bob flipping over high casting cost stuff and losing, yes it helps sculpt your hand but its like a safety net. I wasn't really worried about the life thing because we are running 3 Tendrils. Making a mini tendrils can gain you some life and make the next tendrils lethal for little to no storm. Also, as I mentioned earlier in this post I really didn't have trouble with flipping high casting cost stuff over to bob. On turn one if your not winning or setting up a winning play, you pretty much always just rather be  playing bob and pass. One thing I dislike about top is its not very good until the second turn unless you go mox land top or something like that. Land top is pretty unimpressive because your either not using it on your next turns upkeep or limiting yourself on mana for turn 2. It might be worth reconsidering though since some slots seem to be appearing in the deck.

Yes, Jace is in the deck because its blue to up the blue count.
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« Reply #17 on: April 05, 2010, 06:50:05 am »

I couldn't see your hand, but from the Gifts pile you made, it seemed like a great play.  Flipping the Tendrils to Bob was sad, but you put yourself in a good position to win the game next turn.  I think I heard Alan saying something like if you got all mana you could have gotten storm to do it, but I don't know if there were enough mana sources in your deck to do that.  Black Lotus was in your graveyard, and you would have had to get a mox or something similar -- pretty sure you didn't have the mana available to Tendrils him out if you just would have gotten a mox or mana crypt.

Drit / Crit / Mana Crypt / ?

That would have been your Gifts pile had you gone for all mana.

Thanks for the compliments, are you going to start playing more again?

To be honest I don't remember the exact game state. A bunch of people came up to me after with their versions of gift piles that might have gotten there but at the time when I was doing the piles it seemed like I was going to be one storm off winning. I had mana crypt in play, as my only artifact, my list doesn't play Mana vault so thats a no go, Tolarian is a no go, your saying lotus was in my gy so thats a no go, so that mana pile begins to look like Rit/Crit/x/x when I couldn't figure out the other two cards to allow me to win. I knew if I tinkered up sphinx and got passed the turn and survived there was a reasonable chance I would win since I accompanied that with Timewalk but I'm sure there is a gifts pile that just lets me win on the spot. I believe that I settled on DT, Rit,(I didn't have thresh), Tinker, Timewalk.

Yeah, I'll probably be playing again.  I didn't expect shops to be so popular, it was like half the field.  I missed top 8 by one match, a dream crusher took me out of contention -.-

Aye, I thought your Gifts pile was very good.  Tinkering up Sphinx was the best play you could have made at the time (other than winning if he gave you the wrong cards).  If you survive till your next turn (which you will because you can block all his guys, save Selkie), you would have won quite easily by racing.

Worst case scenario is he has two exalted guys in his hand and swings with Selkie for 4, but that's not going to happen unless he draws Ancestral as he would have played them the turn before to draw an extra card.  He swings for 2, draws 2 cards, and says go.  If you avoid Bob damage you win, if you don't you lose.

Like I said, I couldn't see your hand but I don't think there was a better play available to you.  You couldn't consult for yawg win because your graveyard had nothing aside lotus in it iirc (and you'd risk killing yourself by removing yawg with consult), and no card in your deck could have won you that game.  Much safer to just risk the death to bob @ 2 (or 1 if he draws an exalted guy).

EDIT:  If you had rit / consult in your hand, you might have been able to rit -> consult for tendrils for 6 life, but even that is risky if you've already used any.  Besides, you topdecked Tendrils to Bob to lose, so you would have removed that one first anyway.  The percentages are probably very close to removing all copies of tendrils in your library (because we know that the first one removed was your 2ndish copy, maybe your last depending on how you boarded) than flipping a card with cmc of 2 or greater to Bob. That's not really the point though, I was just mentioning how your Gifts pile was probably best possible.  Smile
« Last Edit: April 05, 2010, 06:58:30 am by Evenpence » Logged

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« Reply #18 on: April 05, 2010, 08:46:42 am »

Quote
To be honest I don't remember the exact game state. A bunch of people came up to me after with their versions of gift piles that might have gotten there but at the time when I was doing the piles it seemed like I was going to be one storm off winning. I had mana crypt in play, as my only artifact, my list doesn't play Mana vault so thats a no go, Tolarian is a no go, your saying lotus was in my gy so thats a no go, so that mana pile begins to look like Rit/Crit/x/x when I couldn't figure out the other two cards to allow me to win. I knew if I tinkered up sphinx and got passed the turn and survived there was a reasonable chance I would win since I accompanied that with Timewalk but I'm sure there is a gifts pile that just lets me win on the spot. I believe that I settled on DT, Rit,(I didn't have thresh), Tinker, Timewalk.
If the issue was being off by storm and not necessarily mana then could a potential Gifts pile been Rit, C-Rit, Mystical, D Consult?  I don't know how many lands that you had in play so its hard to assess how much mana/storm you need but Mystical->Dark Ritual with Dark Confidant trigger on the stack would give you +1 Storm +1 Mana and lets you survive that turn guaranteed.  The slowest pile he can give you is Mystical/D Consult but they are still both +1 mana spells and +2 Storm depending on your land situation.  Also if your able to get Thresh on a C-Rit after Mystical->Ritual and Consult->C-Rit that would be a risky play but an option.  Prob better odds of not seeing C-Rit in top 6 cards than odds of revealing a 2cc + spells.

[EDIT]
So I spoke with Steve and he said the Gifts pile was being cast main phase with him having 3 lands in play, one in hand.  This makes the Gifts pile much more difficult, I thought for a bit and this is the best I could come up with but there is likely something that wins the game that I'm not seeing.

Play - Mana Crypt, Swamp, Swamp, U. Sea
Hand - Gifts, Dark Ritual, Dark Ritual, Demonic Consultation, Fetch (no land for turn)
Graveyard - Black Lotus, Fetch
Opp life - 18

Attempt 1 Win - Dark Ritual, Cabal Ritual, Mox Sapphire, Chain of Vapor
If he gives Chain + Dark Ritual then final storm = 16 dmg and get to bounce a threat of theirs.  This isn't good enough but was the first combo win I thought of.

Option 1-1 - You win if you get Mox + Chain so if you make the pile look more appealing in that regard could be the way to go.  A pile of Demonic Tutor, Yawg Will, Mox Sapphire, Chain of Vapor.

Yawg Will is auto win so they can't give you that by default.

Split-1: DT/Chain - Cast both Rituals DT for a Mox, bounce both win with 10+ storm.
Split-2: DT/Mox - This is the best pile they can give you, you would DT->Tinker->Sphinx since there is no card that wins the game.  You end up in the same spot as Steve and lose so this pile isn't any better if they don't mess it up.
Split-3: Chain/Mox - Dark Ritual + Gifts + Dark Ritual + Chain + Mox X 2 + Crypt + Consult + Tendrils = 18dmg when opp had 18 life.
« Last Edit: April 05, 2010, 11:56:37 am by Gekoratel » Logged
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« Reply #19 on: April 05, 2010, 03:38:19 pm »

If I were in that spot, I would likely Gifts for this:

Tendrils, Ritual, C.Ritual, X

Then Consult for Yawgmoth's Will.  With 45 cards remaining in the deck after Gifts, there is a 6/45 chance of losing off that Consult (1 in 7.5), but otherwise you win and you win without giving your opponent any more draws.

When going for Tinker, granted I don't know what you boarded in or out, but 3 Bobs, 3 Tendrils, 4 Force, Will, Necro, Bargain, H.Recall/Rebuild, C.Ritual, Timetwister, and a variety of other cards kill you when you flip them off Bob.  That's at least 16/44 which is a lot scarier.

Then again, Jeff's approach with Will/Sapphire/DT/Chain could likely lead to the opponent making a mistake. 

Tough judgment call there.  I don't see a Gifts pile that wins it without the opponent giving you the wrong cards. 
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« Reply #20 on: April 05, 2010, 04:03:02 pm »

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Tendrils, Ritual, C.Ritual, X
Yeah I certainly think this was a particularly difficult Gifts pile to do correctly especially timed in a finals match.  This pile is pretty nice Steve and I were talking about Consult->Will but how with 2 Tendrils in the deck you could easily mill them both when looking for a 1-of but your approach of storing it in the graveyard then making the Consult is a very strong play.  Interesting thought exercise regardless.
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« Reply #21 on: April 05, 2010, 04:28:05 pm »

I believe Steve had tendrils in hand already, although I am not 100% sure.
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« Reply #22 on: April 05, 2010, 05:51:20 pm »

I believe Steve had tendrils in hand already, although I am not 100% sure.

Yeah, the problem iirc is he needed 9 storm and only had 3 cards in hand.
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« Reply #23 on: April 05, 2010, 08:03:58 pm »

I believe Steve had tendrils in hand already, although I am not 100% sure.

I had Ritual and Consultation, and no Tendrils. However I am now not 100% sure either. Anyways thanks for everyones suggestion. Either way it was a hard pile which seemed wrong when I layed it down on the table. Maybe I should start taking notes so that we would know for sure.
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« Reply #24 on: April 06, 2010, 07:44:06 am »

I'll be honest. My fear was that you actually had Yawgomoth's Will in hand, which is why I gave you Tinker and Time Walk. I figued giving you you Lotus or Ritual was just asking for a problem for me, especially with my only counter backup in hand was a Spell Pierce.
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« Reply #25 on: April 07, 2010, 07:08:33 pm »

Congrats on the win Steve. Is this your first win at one of these? If so, congrats again and I'd like to welcome you to the "nice to finally get the monkey off my back" club!

I piloted my usual Jund Mykie Noble Fish to a 3-3 finish. It was a little disappointing as I started the day 2-0 and 3-1. But then I ran into Hornung round 5 and it was all downhill from there. One of these days you're going down, Hornung!

I didn't keep an extra copy of my deck list and after the tournament took it apart (temporarily of course!) to assemble the best unproxied Type 1 deck I could build with only a Mox Ruby and a Time Walk to my name for the sanctioned side event, so sorry for no deck list. Obviously I didn't finish well enough for Nick to post it in his report!

(as of this writing Nick hasn't posted his official report yet, so watch him do something like "and finishing in 22nd place (or whatever), Ryan Glackin!")

Also as per usual I didn't take many notes so if my recollections are incorrect feel free to correct me if you're so inclined. You're probably right.

Round 1 win 2-0 vs. Mykie Noble (psyburat) playing 5C Stax (I think)

Sucks to get paired against my friend and namesake of my deck round 1. Oh well, shit happens. Before the die roll Mykie tells me while testing this match-up whoever won the die roll won the match 2-1. I win the die roll. Sweet! I win Game 1 as testing has dictated I should. However I also manage to win Game 2 while on the draw! It was a really close, back-and-forth game that I only won because I drew both Trygon Predators and all three StP's and could answer a couple Lodestone Golems as well as an attacking Serum Powder that would have dealt lethal! Also notable is Mykie played all four Chalices in his deck on two!

Round 2 win 2-0 vs. Karl Kress playing Noble Fish

Karl won the last Blue Bell and the previous week's tournament in Baltimore so I go into this match thinking I have my work cut out for me. Game 1 I am horribly mana-screwed but luckily he doesn't draw many creatures so I eventually recover and win. Game 2 he is mana-flooded and I am eventually able to take the lead in the exalted race and win.

Round 3 lose 0-2 vs. Mike Bauer (mikekilljoy) playing Noble Fish

Even though the Tower of Bauer took the match 2-0 it was a very close, back-and-forth match. Game 1 he lands a Thada while I'm at 2 and I can't draw any of my outs (another Thada, obv!). I used my one maindeck StP earlier. For Game 2 we do the swap-Null-Rods-and-other-useless-mirror-match-cards-for-more-dudes-and-StP's sideboarding strategy. I bring in Jötun Grunts (alt+0246 to make the ö in case yer wonderin') and 2 more StP's. Game 2 he wins an epic FoW battle when I respond to his fetch cracking with Mindcensor. He FoW's, I FoW back, and he FoW's back. Sad bear. He eventually lands more dudes (his own Mindcensor and a Ethersworn Canonist, useful only as another bear in this matchup) and wins.

Note to self: don't ever hashtag #bear in a Twitter post, ever again. Do a search for that term at your own risk. I sure as shit didn't know what that meant!

Round 4 win 2-0 vs. Mike Eisenhauer playing MUD

Round 3 ended early so round 4 was paired while Mike was out getting food. He's unable to make it back in time to avoid a game loss. Playing game 2 with no sideboarding sucks, and I win fairly easily.

Round 5 lose 1-2 vs. Mark Hornung (womba) playing Elias Dredge

Argh! I get paired against Mark again, whom I'm 0-2, 0-4 lifetime against when playing this match-up. We consider ID'ing but there have been a lot of draws in the early rounds so odds are we would have just drew ourselves out of Top 8 contention. So we play. Game 1 Mark almost mulls to oblivion, going to 2 before finding a Bazaar. His early draws/discards/dredges yield nothing spectacular yet I am unable to put any early pressure on him and he is eventually able to win. Game 2 I finally find a decent amount of hate against Mark. I land a turn 2 Jötun Grunt and neatly tuck two Bridges he discarded under his deck. Grunt is only able to get in for 4 before I can't pay his upkeep so it takes a while but I finally get there. Game 3 he starts with Bazaar and Chalice on 0, which sucks a little because I have a Sapphire in hand. Naturally I draw a Tormod's Crypt so now it sucks a lot! Luckily I am able to stick a Needle on Bazaar, keeping it to just the one activation, then tutor up a Ravenous Trap to slow things up somewhat. Time is running short by now as Mark has mulled something like 13 times this match. He is able to dredge a couple of Bloodghasts using a Dakmor Salvage so I am unable to Trap him. It stays in my hand all game. As was the case in Game 1 I am unable to put much pressure on him and he is eventually able to beat me down with two Bloodghasts. I StP'd one of them and drew another StP for the second but he had a Chain of Vapor to save it. After Mark wins somebody reminded him of the Bloodghast he dredged with his first (and only) Bazaar activation of the game and never brought back. I noticed it as well for the first miss but then forgot he forgot, lol!

Oh well at least I managed to take one game against him this time. Small victories...

Maybe I need to rethink my sideboard strategy against Dredge and leave more dudes in. Against Mark I boarded out 2 Mindcensor, 2 Thada, 3 Null Rod, 2 Trygon, 1 Hurkyl's, 1 Clique, and 1 card I don't remember and boarded in 2 StP, 2 Needle, 3 Rav Trap, 2 Crypt, and 3 Grunt. Maybe board out FoW? I like Daze in this matchup. Dredge usually has trouble paying {1} for anything...

Round 6 lose 1-2 vs Allen Fulmer playing MUD

This is usually a pretty good matchup for me. Except when the MUD player on the play is able to go runner runner Lodestone Golem, as happened Game 1. I quickly shuffle up for Game 2. Game 2 my sideboarded goodness gets there and we go to game 3. Game 3 I am able to StP a couple of his robots but he strangles me under just enough Tangle Wires and Smokestacks to get there with a Lodestone Golem.

Final thoughts on my build:

  • I ran a Hurkyl's main as, among other things, it's an additional answer to Tinker/Sphinx and can also deal with an Inkwell should that be my opponent's robot of choice. I'm thinking of a second maindeck StP and sending Hurkyl's to the sideboard, or getting rid of it entirely.
  • I finally own a Jace the Mind Sculptor, so I'm going to try to fit him in there. Why not? (I know I could have proxied him but I don't like proxying non-power 9, non Bazaar-Tabernacle-Mana Drain-other $100+ cards. Jace isn't $100 yet, is he?)
  • I really don't like Meddling Mage and want to get him outta there. What to replace him with? Kataki? Canonist? Selkie? Something else?
  • One main-deck Karakas, anybody? (On a side note, is that really a $30 card now? Un-freaking-believable!)
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« Reply #26 on: April 07, 2010, 08:34:51 pm »

  • I really don't like Meddling Mage and want to get him outta there. What to replace him with? Kataki? Canonist? Selkie? Something else?

I think I proved how good Selkie is. Definitely go with that.
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« Reply #27 on: April 07, 2010, 09:23:34 pm »

  • I really don't like Meddling Mage and want to get him outta there. What to replace him with? Kataki? Canonist? Selkie? Something else?

I think I proved how good Selkie is. Definitely go with that.

I think you def. want to go with Selkie, but I don't believe cutting Meddling Mage is an option either. Personally, I'd cut "cute" cards like Mindcensor and Thada Adel, that have proven to me time and again to lack raw power. This deck is about as linear as they come. You want to play Mana Denial against decks that are ramping to something huge (TPS, Tezz, namely) and you want to play the aggro/removal war against Shops (This is where STP and Nature's Claim are huge). I think a simple, more 4-of strategy to the deck will be more successful than random 1-ofs. I sadly went an abysmal 2-3 on the day but I went 1-1 against MUD and lost a match due to a play mistake. I'm confident that if I'd gone with my gut and played the full 3 Trygon MD and 1 in the SB instead of 2 MD and 1 Thada Adel it would have improved my overall performance a bit. I'm gonna be giving this list a whirl sometime soon and I think it's pretty well geared to beat Shops AND Dredge.

Noble Fish

Land (17):
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Flooded Strand
3 Tropical Island
3 Tundra
1 Island
1 Forest
3 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine

Artifacts (7):
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Pearl
3 Null Rod

Creatures (20):
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Qasali Pridemage
3 Meddling Mage
3 Tarmogoyf
3 Cold-Eyed Selkie
3 Trygon Predator

Instants (15):
4 Force Of Will
3 Daze
3 Stifle
4 Swords To Plowshares
1 Ancestral Recall

Sorceries (1):
1 Time Walk

Sideboard
2 Ravenous Trap
3 Tormod’s Crypt
3 Pithing Needle
3 Nature’s Claim
3 Energy Flux
1 Trygon Predator

As for the SBing vs. dredge it is very simple.

-3 Null Rod, -4 STP, -1 Selkie
+3 Needle, +3 Crypt, +2 Rav. Trap

STP isn't that good in the match-up as you should never get to the point where Dread Return is being played, otherwise you lost already.

Also,

@KingSquee - never, NEVER, EVER, EVER, EVER side out Force Of Will against Dredge!! Are you insane?!! It is one of the most important cards you have in that match-up games 2 and 3 because it protects your hate from anti-hate spells like Chain Of Vapor and Nature's Claim. The match-up really shouldn't be that hard if you SB properly because you have a clock (Goyfs), a way to remove bridges (Pridemage), standard effective hate cards in healthy numbers and, MOST importantly, you have 7-10 counterspells that are turn 1 plays that can protect your hate cards.

-Storm


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« Reply #28 on: April 08, 2010, 08:24:44 am »

Great list. I played Tendrils lists with 3 Tendrils, Consultation and Forces for some years now and it was awesome in all kinds of metagames.

Concerning Tinker/Jar I have to say that it is one of the best setup cards in the deck. Sure, you need to wait one turn most of the time, but you win for sure (99%). If I have an early tutor I always go for Tinker instead of Twister.

Where is Desire???
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« Reply #29 on: April 08, 2010, 09:33:57 am »

Desire doesn't really fit in the deck. Without setup spells like grim tutor and impseal desire can be weak. You don't want to play a lot of high cc spells that don't win the game on they're own when you have a bob out. This deck also sacrafices some of the explosive combo plays that long or even tps can make to improve the shop matchup with bob, which also helps in many other matchups as well.
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