New card: Tajuru Preserver

[TheShop]

1G
2/1
Creature- Elf Shaman

Spells and abilities your opponents control can't cause you to sacrifice permanents.


What a load of bullshit.  Evidently the answer to a 15CC creature with annihilator 6 had to be:
1) a permanent
2) an easy CC(only one colored mana)
3) playable in turn 1 in vintage versus smokestack.
4) he attacks

This is a typical case of a card to answer a shitty ability in standard being unneccesarily costed low enough to rape a vintage house.  Why did this need to cost 2????  I mean, we can only hope players with their shiny new type 2 and draft cards can find a way to tap their 2 white bordered forests and slap this guy down before the other guy makes his 2000 mana to play emrakul.
I hate this card, this is absolutely gayer than sacred ground.  There better be a whole host of artifact 3-4 mana threats for stax in scars of mirrodin if they can print this trash and work smokestack over like this.

It's not even flavorful, this is the kind of crappy hate printing normally reserved for massive mistakes: ie- yixilid jailer for dredge.

LAME.

I get you're upset somebody printed a card that interferes with your preferences, but making a post as inflammatory as this isn't a good way to vent your anger about it. You could have nuaced some of the stuff you said here. Since you chose not to, counting the fact that you are a FULL member (you should know better) I see no way to avoid this.

Verbal Warning for inflammatory posting..

Marske

[Bill Copes]

I don't think this effects smokestack, as the triggers are not a spell or ability.

[meadbert]

You realize that Welder is worse than this guy.

Meddling Mage naming Smokestack is about the same.

This does not impact Strip Mine or Wasteland and thus Crucible so it is much worse than Sacred Ground.

[Qasur]

I don't think this effects smokestack, as the triggers are not a spell or ability.

Smokestack is a triggered *ability*, so yeah, it'd be your ability that forced the sacrifice of the opponent's permanents.

But, what you have to remember too is that it completely stops Balance from coming down and housing any self-respecting fish player who uses green. Balance sacs lands and creatures, which this guy would totally protect. So, yeah, it a way, he's pretty good aginst some Vintage tech.

While I hate that he stops Smokestack, I don't quite agree that he's as bad since Smokestack isn't a key card to many builds of Stax. While some of those decks may use the card, it can be easily cut for sideboard cards if need be. With 4cc jug-spehere-guy, Stax is a new beast (literally) altogether than older incarnations.

[Qasur]

You realize that Welder is worse than this guy.

Meddling Mage naming Smokestack is about the same.

This does not impact Strip Mine or Wasteland and thus Crucible so it is much worse than Sacred Ground.

Sacred Ground stopped Smokestack specifically as well if you sac lands to the ability, so it was a two-fold answer to Strip/Waste + Stack. This guy only stops Stack, again, a less-worse card in some Stax decks.

Oh, and on a positive note: he can be Dark Blast'd... pretty good I hear, and usually sees play in 5C Stax anyways. Even if playing playing B/R Aggro Stax, it'll see play probably (even though Smokestack probably won't be in those builds... /shrug)

[Bill Copes]

I don't think this effects smokestack, as the triggers are not a spell or ability.

Smokestack is a triggered *ability*, so yeah, it'd be your ability that forced the sacrifice of the opponent's permanents.

But, what you have to remember too is that it completely stops Balance from coming down and housing any self-respecting fish player who uses green. Balance sacs lands and creatures, which this guy would totally protect. So, yeah, it a way, he's pretty good aginst some Vintage tech.

While I hate that he stops Smokestack, I don't quite agree that he's as bad since Smokestack isn't a key card to many builds of Stax. While some of those decks may use the card, it can be easily cut for sideboard cards if need be. With 4cc jug-spehere-guy, Stax is a new beast (literally) altogether than older incarnations.

Nuts.  I should have reread sacred ground before posting, as I knew that worked.  Wow.  This card is awful for stax to compete against.  Resurgence of Granite Shard?

[Troy_Costisick]

Yeah, you know, I'm really surprised they would print such a cheap, splashable card that hosed the marquis ability of the marquis creatues of the set.  The fact that is will become a staple in X/G Beatz decks if Shops continue to rise is also a little disapointing.  

[TheShop]

Negating balance does not concern me nearly as much as the fact that creature creates more permanent advantage for the opponent than crucible does for you.....and he attacks for 2.....and is a permant.....and costs 1 less mana.....but 1 more mana than an easy turn 1 chalice.....

Again:  this is trash

@ the guy who mentioned welder and meddling Mage:  stax runs welder as well and it is more beneficial to stax than other decks...when was the last time you saw a meddling Mage??????  The last time I saw one it was in cron's sideboard...This guy is less like either of those and more like kataki

[Qasur]

Negating balance does not concern me nearly as much as the fact that creature creates more permanent advantage for the opponent than crucible does for you.....and he attacks for 2.....and is a permant.....and costs 1 less mana.....but 1 more mana than an easy turn 1 chalice.....

Again:  this is trash

@ the guy who mentioned welder and meddling Mage:  stax runs welder as well and it is more beneficial to stax than other decks...when was the last time you saw a meddling Mage??????  The last time I saw one it was in cron's sideboard...This guy is less like either of those and more like kataki

In stax, though, I thinking the simple answer to aggro would be fetching up Balance though. You'd hold back to Balance their board away, then drop your shop and play more spells. Yet again though, with a 5/3 creature in Stax now, holding off an aggressive deck is a lot easier and this card may not be quite as devestating. It hurts the more traditional builds of 5-Color Stax than it does to newer builds focusing less on just lock components compared to lock-components-than-can-attack/block.

I don't agree with the creature costing 2 AT ALL though because it's an easy splash into a deck, even for the standard environment, making a whole subset of like 12+ cards from the same set not as good as they were meant to be.

[meadbert]

@ the guy who mentioned welder and meddling Mage:  stax runs welder as well and it is more beneficial to stax than other decks...when was the last time you saw a meddling Mage??????  The last time I saw one it was in cron's sideboard...This guy is less like either of those and more like kataki

Meddling Mage shows up in Noble Fish.  I am pretty sure Wong won a tournament (or at least placed second) with a Noble Fish variant that had Meddling Mage.
Welder is devestating against Stax.  I would much rather deal with this guy than with an oposing Welder.

This guy can be removed with Darkblast in 5cc Stax.

In Uba Stax which I play more options including Powder Keg, blocking him with Welder if he attacks.  Blocking with Factory if he attacks.  Shoot him with Barbarian Ring.  Shutting down just Smokestack means little as I will either pitch it to Bazaar or Weld it out for something I can use.
Chalice@2 proactively stops this guy.  I am far more terrified of Sacred Ground which cannot be hit by Keg or Barbarian Ring and also shuts off Strip Mine and Wasteland.

[Qasur]

I mostly mentioned this card because I thought you'd laugh... not call it the greatest hate against our Favorite decktype.

Also, in Fish, there are more devestating answers to Smokestack. Kataki comes to mind, as well as any 1cc instant/sorcery that destroys an artifact/enchantment (at least 1 comes to mind for sure).

WotC may have made it this splashable because of a forseeable future where they figured Oath decks going Emrakul + Dragon's Breath was really good. Even if a weaker answer to that deck, he was made splashable to answer that guy (even though ne doesn't stop 15 damage/turn) and also be somewhat useful as an answer to Balance and Smokestack as well.

[TopSecret]

I do not see how this card could be good without some different printings.

Unless I am missing something, it stops Smokestack, Balance, Diabolic Edict, and not much else.
So it's not very good against decks that do not rely on the above cards, which is most decks.

At best I think it is a narrow hate card in Vintage.

It doesn't really stop the Eldrazi either. It just stops the sacrifice ability, which creates a bigger window of time.
It does not stop the huge dork coming into the red zone or any of the casting effects.

[Evenpence]

This card doesn't do a whole lot.  It stops Smokestack, but that's only one of Stax's many tools.

It has toughness 1, so it gets Barbarian Ring'd, Triskellion'd, Granite Shard'd, Darkblast'd, etc.

It also gets hit to Chalice @ two, and there are tons of better cards that Fish can play with a casting cost of 2 vs. Stax.

I just don't see this card as the powerhouse destroyer that the OP might.

It doesn't really stop the Eldrazi either. It just stops the sacrifice ability, which creates a bigger window of time.

Yup, it can also be destroyed via burn or the eldrazi with the CITP "destroy target permanent."

[TheShop]

I would rather deal with an instant or sorcery or enchant  than a permanent that attacks...they are not going to attack into a creature with this guy if your have a stack on the board.  Also, it is not always easy to dig up your 3 cards that kill this guy...

My bad about meddling Mage

and how many people are really boarding in welder against you???


I still think it is lame because it is so unnecessary right now in vintage and it could have cost 6 mana and still been equally gay in standard.

[BruiZar]

I specifically did not mentinon this in my spoiler thread because I just don't think he's that good. It's just another narrow hate card that doesn't hate an entire deck, just one of the many redundant parts. Sure, its a card to have just so you can metagame it, but I'd rather play Hurkyll's Recall for that mana.

[Oath of Happy]

A lot of Stax decks run 4 Barbarian Ring and 4 Bazaar of Baghdad

[TheShop]

So the consensus then is "it's okay, b/r Stax runs 4 b-rings and darkblast"? After all, B/R is the only archetype that locks people out of the game....this is almost as presumptuous as the powers that be deciding that a single bazaar is bad in 5-color or that unless your shop deck runs 4 bobs it is not "the best way to abuse workshops".

I digress, but seriously:  would this not have served the exact same function in the other formats if it had been a 6cc 3/5 or something.

[Gandalf_The_White_1]

I digress, but seriously:  would this not have served the exact same function in the other formats if it had been a 6cc 3/5 or something.

So, if I understand correctly, you're upset that Wizards is printing a card which might see play in Vintage?

[Stormanimagus]

So the consensus then is "it's okay, b/r Stax runs 4 b-rings and darkblast"? After all, B/R is the only archetype that locks people out of the game....this is almost as presumptuous as the powers that be deciding that a single bazaar is bad in 5-color or that unless your shop deck runs 4 bobs it is not "the best way to abuse workshops".

I digress, but seriously:  would this not have served the exact same function in the other formats if it had been a 6cc 3/5 or something.

This card is not that good even against Stax so stop complaining. I'm actually pissed that it looks like Wizards gave us NOTHING for Vintage this go around. When are they gonna print GY hate that really works for Green?

-Storm

[meadbert]

I digress, but seriously:  would this not have served the exact same function in the other formats if it had been a 6cc 3/5 or something.

So, if I understand correctly, you're upset that Wizards is printing a card which might see play in Vintage?

I still don't get the big deal.  Pithing Needle hates out Stax better.  Kataki is better.  Sacred Ground is better.  Ancient Grudge is better. Shattering Spree is better.  Goblin Welder is better.  Viashino Heretic is better.  Trygon Predator is better.  Rack & Ruin is better.  Hurkyl's Recall is better.  Energy Flux is better.  Rebuild is better.  This is just one more out of any number of cards that hit Stax.  I do not see this impacting the playability of Stax in any significant way.

[CorwinB]

The fact that WotC decided that nearly every utility effect had to go through creatures was bound to have an effect on Vintage one day or another. It was this way with Kataki and Confident, went on with Pridemage and Ethersworn Canonist, then Lodestone Golem aka "Sphere on a (big) stick", and now it's this guy. Within a couple sets, there won't be a single Vintage archetype that can't be hosed by a single small creature. This is not the most efficient Stax hate there is, but it's pretty good in its own way.

[Cyberpunker]

Why doesn't True Believer stop Oath? Well because there are ways around it preboard (Tinker/Bounce/Key+Vault/Show and Tell/FoW). And there are ways around it post board (Deathmark, Bounce, Massacre, Edicts, Show and Tell, W/E).

This guy will be similar to True Believer. He can be handled. And unlike True Believer, Emrakul can still come out and swing for 15, plus being immune to STP or Bounce.

As for smokestack and balance, yeah this guy stops it. But if you cannot handle a 2/1 while playing MuD, you need to rethink your deck.

Most MuD decks running around my area don't even play Smokestack anymore.

[TheShop]

I digress, but seriously:  would this not have served the exact same function in the other formats if it had been a 6cc 3/5 or something.

So, if I understand correctly, you're upset that Wizards is printing a card which might see play in Vintage?

I still don't get the big deal.  Pithing Needle hates out Stax better.  Kataki is better.  Sacred Ground is better.  Ancient Grudge is better. Shattering Spree is better.  Goblin Welder is better.  Viashino Heretic is better.  Trygon Predator is better.  Rack & Ruin is better.  Hurkyl's Recall is better.  Energy Flux is better.  Rebuild is better.  This is just one more out of any number of cards that hit Stax.  I do not see this impacting the playability of Stax in any significant way.

I do not think pithing needle is better, or what most would bring in against you.   Kataki is better...but most drain decks are not splashing white already (and some are splashing green for regrowth...in addition if grow ever comes back....). Heretic is not better due to mana an turn (no haste) and I have yet to see this person packing 4 welders in the board to bring in against you.

The others are a given other than sacred ground.  Yes Sacred Ground is VERY bad....but the fact that his guy is a permanent and attacks(and is green) makes him better IMO.

I admit, this guy is not the end all be all....but it really touches a nerve when they print permanents that net multiple permanents at those costs that can be paid turn 1.

BTW- how hard is it going to be to beat G/W fish when their are packing pridemage, teeg, this guy, and kataki??? 

[smasher]

I have yet to see this person packing 4 welders in the board to bring in against you.

I played sideboard welders in the not too distant past to deal with several shops in the meta. Won me a lot of games and I don't remember losing any game that I resolved it. It's definitely a card I would continue to sideboard if the meta requires it and/or my deck allows for some red.

I don't see this new card making an impact. It's weaker than other options people have already listed.

[Qasur]

I can understand where The Shop is coming from. Green supplanted white as the "splash" color in Fish decks. What would predominantly been U/W/b or U/r/b or even 4-color, minus green FISH, now there's really just BUG. From that standpoint, anything that hates on an archetype in Green becomes good because green is the beatdown in the BUG color. Blue for control, black for tutor/removal, green for beatdown. This guy becomes an efficient possible-turn-1 threat that stops Balance and Smokestack, two great cards that could slow down any aggro deck (one of stax most prominent problems is a deck that puts an attacker down in front of it because it 1. creates a permanent and 2. it lowers your life total while you try to find a way to kill it).

Now, that being said, all of those white-colored options are nice, but see less play than other cards. And also, meddling mage would probably name more powerful, like Crucible of Worlds or Lodestone Golem (if one's not in play, or even if one is), depending on what the player could handle. So, for green, anytime they gain a new card that hate on a decktype, it just empowers the W/G and BUG archetypes that have become the new faces of Fish.

As far as this guy goes, he's pointless. But, it's a precedent with 2cc critters with 1 colorless and 1 colored cost with a good ability that nukes some cards becoming better and better.

@the buy who said 'you don't want new cards in vintage': There's a point of bringing new cards to vintage, but not all new cards are seen in some holy light. Dredge is definitely full of those types of cards. How many cards in dredge are present in any other vintage deck? Not many. Most players really hate dredge as a deck in vintage because it's nearly impossible to hate against, plus every set, some new card becomes a stable inclusion into the deck to the point where older hate doesn't even work anymore and the current hate can be destroyed and hated on.

So the guy got upset about this card, which i think was *too far*, but again, I can see where he was coming from (to a point).

[Gandalf_The_White_1]

BTW- how hard is it going to be to beat G/W fish when their are packing pridemage, teeg, this guy, and kataki??? 

About as hard as resolving a Pyroclasm.

Vintage is full of narrow hate cards.  Pretty much any archetype can be tuned to beat another; the challenge is in retaining decent matchups against most of the expected field.  Against every deck except Stax, this guy is just a 2/1 dude.  And as others have pointed out, there are already much stronger hate cards against Stax.

[meadbert]

BTW- how hard is it going to be to beat G/W fish when their are packing pridemage, teeg, this guy, and kataki??? 

I don't get it.  Teeg shuts off Smokestack and .... .... just Smokestack?  I mean Uba Mask and Null Brooch are shut off for the few Stax decks that play those, but those get boarded out anyway.  So you have 8 creaures dedicated to hating out 4 Smokestacks?  What if the Stax player just boards out Smokestack or boards down to 2.  Then what?  A single resolved Welder creates real problems even if all 4 of those creatures are in play.  It is just a matter of wiping the board with Powder Keg.  What if I play Triskelion?  Are you going to attack into a 4/4?  Are you going to sack Pridemage to destroy Trike only to watch as I shoot Kataki and either Teeg or Tajuru in response?  Nice 3 for 1.
What about Duplicant?  One duplicant hits and RFGs Pridemage.  Now you have a fat 2/4 to attack into.

The are any number of ways to defeat that so I really do not understand the problem.

Even if this guy somehow made G/W fish significantly better, would that really be a bad thing?

[TheShop]

I give, I give....I will come out and say it:  I just don't understand the need for this particulat narrow hate card for my fav archetype at a time when it is not the deck to beat and was pissed.  I think everyone has these kinds of kneejerk reactions sometimes when they print things like this or when a different archetype gets a good card tailor made for it(not the current situation, but similar)...and don't give me the "I just want them to print playable cards no matter what they are"

and rationalizing my frustration did not pan out

[goober]

I just don't understand the need for this particulat narrow hate card for my fav archetype at a time when it is not the deck to beat and was pissed.

There was no need for a hate card for Stax, they made this purely as a hate card for annihilator and All is Dust.  I doubt any deck will use this against Stax.  I know if I was making a 15 card anti-Stax sideboard I wouldn't have room for even 1.

[FlyFlySideOfFry]

I give, I give....I will come out and say it:  I just don't understand the need for this particulat narrow hate card for my fav archetype at a time when it is not the deck to beat and was pissed.  I think everyone has these kinds of kneejerk reactions sometimes when they print things like this or when a different archetype gets a good card tailor made for it(not the current situation, but similar)...and don't give me the "I just want them to print playable cards no matter what they are"

and rationalizing my frustration did not pan out

I'd hate to have seen your reaction when Trygon Predator came out lol.