Feedback please - Enchantress Deck Help

[TopSecret]

Have you tried Stasis? You already have Rootmaze for a soft lock. Stasis also stops Vault/Key while it's in play.

To keep Stasis going, you can bounce Stasis with Words of Wind. Adding Foresaken City is another option.

Have you considered Scute Mob as a win condition? It only needs a one mana window, and if you can hit five lands it can finish the opponent very quickly without waiting for them to play artifacts or nonbasics. (It can also kill in one swing after a couple turns if you lock the opponent out with Stasis.) Another idea would be adding either the blue or green Genju. Wind Zendikon is another option.

[Fraggle]

Have you tried Stasis? You already have Rootmaze for a soft lock. Stasis also stops Vault/Key while it's in play.

To keep Stasis going, you can bounce Stasis with Words of Wind. Adding Foresaken City is another option.

I have not tried Stasis only because I didn't know how I would sustain it.  Additionally I didn't know how it would help me win.

In Tezz I'm not fearful of the Vault / Key combo.  I'm fearful of the blue bounce that Vault key can find.  If it weren't for the bounce Vault Key (most of the time) would do nothing because energy field wouldn't allow them to damage me via the attack.

To vault key win (unless I'm mistaken) I think the better enchantress check would be Seal of Primordium which the above list should have. Currently Stasis would shut me down as well unless I bounced it, but usually by the time I resolve a Word of Wind I can bounce my opponent back to their had in 2ish turns.  With a Root maze that is a hard lock less pitch spells.  and Eryao, if in play and flipped (should be if I bounced all that) it is a hard lock & a win [decking].

Have you considered Scute Mob as a win condition? It only needs a one mana window, and if you can hit five lands it can finish the opponent very quickly without waiting for them to play artifacts or nonbasics. (It can also kill in one swing after a couple turns if you lock the opponent out with Stasis.) Another idea would be adding either the blue or green Genju. Wind Zendikon is another option.

I have not.  I have tried Ginjus in the earlier lists using Kor Spritdancer, but not here.  It may prove top be beneficial, and I will keep it in mind.

The impetus for me to add the hidden wasn't necessarily for beatz it was to nickel-and-dime counter decks.  Cheap enchantments to either draw counters or make them pay.  If they are not enchantments then I don't draw.  I chose the Hidden because they are 1 green and can keep them bottled up.  If they choose to ignore them I could possibly beat them down pretty quick.  If they draw a counter they did their job, and with an enchantress in play I still draw.  This is the current ends to my they-can't-counter-everything approach.

Hidden Guerrillas is especially good at this.  A 5/3 trampler for is as broken as they come.  Add Draw 1 for each enchantress in play it gets a little ridiculous.  It should keep the jewelry, the mid-game Top, the whatever at bay.

I don't see it as the primary win though, just the accidental ones like Bob.

[Delha]

Who is running the Tezz list against you? If they counter your Enchantresses, most of the rest of the deck really doesn't do much, and you have no tutoring to dig up Forcefield/Chasm/etc. The fact that they back up their countermagic with a very fast kill makes the matchup seem rough, barring play errors on the part of Tezz.

Unless you have T1 or T2 Root Maze, TPS should be able to win largely uninhibited.

Have you tested against Oath at all? I think that matchup is going to give your current list major issues.
--A quick Tinker is probably lethal.
--Oath into Terastodon is probably lethal.
--Iona is quite possibly lethal.
--Jace kills through Forcefield/Chasm. Alternately, they bounce/recast the elephant til your board is gone.

[Fraggle]

Who is running the Tezz list against you? If they counter your Enchantresses, most of the rest of the deck really doesn't do much, and you have no tutoring to dig up Forcefield/Chasm/etc. The fact that they back up their countermagic with a very fast kill makes the matchup seem rough, barring play errors on the part of Tezz.

My GF , people I know, and myself. 

I have won some matches never resolving an enchantress.  Slowly Beating with transformed hiddens.  Played from behind a Mystic Remora.  It's hard for Tezz not to trigger something.

I know in this match it is all about playing tinker unless vault key hands itself to you.

Unless you have T1 or T2 Root Maze, TPS should be able to win largely uninhibited.

I have to agree.  Currently I was trying to test things to see if I can even put together an enchantress build that wasn't solely Tezz hate that could win.  Then I would put it through the gauntlet.  This whole thing may need to be scrapped, but I'll keep trying, just because I want it to work.

Have you tested against Oath at all? I think that matchup is going to give your current list major issues.
--A quick Tinker is probably lethal.
--Oath into Terastodon is probably lethal.
--Iona is quite possibly lethal.
--Jace kills through Forcefield/Chasm. Alternately, they bounce/recast the elephant til your board is gone.

No, I think this is where cutting the Seals was a huge mistake, I'm sure by the time I'm done testing they will be back in there with little dispute.

I'd really like to run white in the deck primarily to pick up Runed Halo, but I'm currently at a loss on the manabase with the Root Maze hinderence.  With Runed Halo & Energy Field, Tinker is less of an issue, and TPS is a better match.  Any thousht on that.

I know there is Prismatic Omen, but I just don't see that being as reliable as needed.

Thanks Delha for your time.  Please keep the help coming.

[Delha]

My GF , people I know, and myself. 

I have won some matches never resolving an enchantress.  Slowly Beating with transformed hiddens.  Played from behind a Mystic Remora.  It's hard for Tezz not to trigger something.

How confident are you that the decisions being made are solid? Not trying to be a dick here. It's just that 80% wins against competitive deck is very rare, and play errors are the most obvious potential skewing factor.

I know in this match it is all about playing tinker unless vault key hands itself to you.

If it was just Tinker, it wouldn't be so bad. The problem is Tinker is just one of several tutors they have. Also, note that you are essentially playing a fish deck, but minus the disruption that is critical in buying time to beat down. I assume that the list you tested against isn't running Sphinx, because that shuts down your offense entirely and you have no answers to it.

Have you tested against Oath at all? I think that matchup is going to give your current list major issues...

No, I think this is where cutting the Seals was a huge mistake, I'm sure by the time I'm done testing they will be back in there with little dispute.

I'd suggest testing against Oath more than Tezz, since it's the rising star these days.

I'd really like to run white in the deck primarily to pick up Runed Halo, but I'm currently at a loss on the manabase with the Root Maze hinderence.  With Runed Halo & Energy Field, Tinker is less of an issue, and TPS is a better match.  Any thousht on that.

I'll be straight with you. We're right back to thirty posts ago, where there was absolutely zero direction and random ideas were flying around. To be perfectly honest, if Enchantress wasn't a guilty pleasure of mine, I'd have bailed on this thread by now.

You agreed to focus on a GW version, tested an off the cuff suggestion, and threw it out the window two or three posts later. I'm perfectly cool with working on a UG version, but if you want to get anything resembling progress, you need to pick a goddamn horse and stick with it. I'm not saying you have to keep running a dead idea into the ground forever, but you seriously need to focus in on a variant and test/tweak it thoroughly before jumping to the next new shiny. Otherwise you're just going to spend an eternity scrambling from one unrefined list to another.

[madmanmike25]

I actually like Energy Field + Wheel of Sun and Moon.  Seems like that could buy you a lot of time. 

Hidden Guerillas is probably the best 'hidden' card around.  I wouldn't run any others.

If you decide to stick with blue, I think you had better run FoW to make this remotely viable in Vintage.

[Delha]

I actually like Energy Field + Wheel of Sun and Moon.  Seems like that could buy you a lot of time. 

Hidden Guerillas is probably the best 'hidden' card around.  I wouldn't run any others.

If you decide to stick with blue, I think you had better run FoW to make this remotely viable in Vintage.

Just realized I never commented on the changes. Agreed on basically all three points above: Field + Wheel is pretty cool, I'd probably test with just Guerillas, and FoW is a must (with associated increase in Blue count).

[Fraggle]

Hey all-

I'm going to use this post to attempt to wain the attrition, and answer some perceived wishy-washyness.

I was (for a while) pulling things out of my bum on this thread just to lay out seeds for ideas to see if anyone could hitch their wagon to it and help me see it through.  Based off some comments I've made a good effort to stop this practice and get down to business.

I tested the GW list above quite a bit against Tezz (approaching 50ish matches) and the deck didn't win all that much.  It won somewhere under a third of the time.

In an effort to make it work I made the adjustments listed above, and found myself being bob-ed to death quite a bit.  The deck got good at stalling its loss, but couldn't do too well at winning.

It was of my opinion that the top deck tutors (Enlightened, and Sterling Grove) were a bit too slow. Drawing either wasn't an especially good feeling since they only afforded me the opportunity to effect the match instead of affecting the game on that turn.

It was also my opinion that that this deck didn't use the enchantress too well.  The high casting costs of a chunk of the spells hindered the explosiveness of enchantress, and made it more vulnerable to counter spells.  In many ways I felt that this deck could have done better without an enchantress in it.

I walked away from it for a while to try and figure out what needed to be done to make it work.

When I came back I figured a new perspective would help.  I figured if   was truly the best colors for enchantress then a simple search in the Gatherer should prove that.

I pulled this list.
&type=%20[%22Enchantment%22]&subtype=%20![%22Aura%22]&cmc=%20%3C=[3]]http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Search/Default.aspx?sort=cmc+|color+&action=advanced&output=spoiler,textspoiler&format=|[%22Vintage%22]&type=%20[%22Enchantment%22]&subtype=%20![%22Aura%22]&cmc=%20%3C=[3]

I was looking at which color could be the most disruptive with the lowest curve.  I was expecting to find White to be second to Green (Hiddens & Root Maze), and in my opinion I did not.

Blue's Mystic Remora and Energy Field seemed to be a better path to at least experiment with. thus the   switch.

I kept testing both to prove out my gut feelings, and I feel blue is a better fit currently than white.  In my opinion it is more explosive, and gives you a reason to play enchantress.  I am more than willing to hear alternative opinions to this if you disagree.

Now a word on the hiddens.  They are better than I thought they would be.  They are interactive, give you a play T1 other than Root Maze or a mana enchant, and only get more explosive, and harder to ignore in a good enchantress draw-play / draw-play turn.

They nickel-and-dime the heck out of counter, and can quickly become a force to be reckoned with.  I'm open to dropping any of them, but I caution that you may be hard pressed to find something better in that slot.

Items to note Hidden Herd almost always triggers, and can block Bob's to death, and are a better clock than Bob.  Mid-game they can become a good cantrip, and can caution a good player not to drop that mana that may not be pressing based off their hand they see at the time.  This can easily play into resolving a Root Maze making that decision hurt more.  ...but once again this is open.  

EDIT: This also indirectly helps the Word of Winds win-con.  Additionally, when triggered, it slows or potentially kills Tezz. They also help with Edict effects


Also, Hidden Gibbons shouldn't be so easily overlooked as well.  These trigger on blues counters, and most draw.  Blacks fast mana, Reds direct damage, and greens artifact hate. and each colors top deck tutors.

On Force of Will.  No doubt this card is amazing, but consider this.  This lessens your card advantage, and will most likely be a loosing battle unless you play the drains and other counter magic to support it.  

This also lessens the effectiveness of Energy Field sans Wheel of Sun and Moon.  Trying to counter something to protect it only kills it.  As talked about earlier in this thread I think the better way for enchantress to go is not spell or mana denial, but win denial.

We need to try to come together on a single philosophy.  I'm in the school of our opponent can not counter everything, and nothing is too important.  I fear if we go the Force of Will route it will quickly become the same shell you see Oath, and Tezz have around them. I'm interested in a new archetype, and a new archetype sometimes requires new philosophies.

I'd be far more interested in running Counterbalance.  Ponder this.  It is a perm and therefore more compatible with a stand alone Energy Field.  It is an enchantment and is therefore more synergistic with enchantress effects.  You do not loose card advantage to use it (in fact you gain it.) The effect can not be traditionally countered or misdirected. This combos with Soothsaying, and Sensi's Divining top. (and top deck tutors / but that isn't good for stand alone energy fields) ...and indirectly combos with Telepathy.

Edit: Eryo, Soratimi Acendant disrupts in a similar manner when flipped, and also maintains CA.  Countering the first spell of each turn of your opponents is huge.  On their turn they are wasting something [usually mana and CA], and on your turn they are burning 2 counter spells to counter 1 thing. This also thins the board for an easier bounce win.  ...and it like Counterbalance it's effect can not be traditionally countered or misdirected.


Finally,  we the development team need to decide on a win.  I am a fan of Word of Winds. This card is useful even when you can not quite perm lock, and can bounce anything on the board up to and including Sphinx of the Steel Wind.  Then deck, and or attack for the win.  I do think the deck could use a Wind Zendikon or to to secure the beat Word of Winds win.

I'd love to hear what anyone has to say to this post.

[madmanmike25]

On Force of Will.  No doubt this card is amazing, but consider this.  This lessens your card advantage, and will most likely be a loosing battle unless you play the drains and other counter magic to support it. 
This also lessens the effectiveness of Energy Field sans Wheel of Sun and Moon.  Trying to counter something to protect it only kills it.  As talked about earlier in this thread I think the better way for enchantress to go is not spell or mana denial, but win denial.
We need to try to come together on a single philosophy.  I'm in the school of our opponent can not counter everything, and nothing is too important.  I fear if we go the Force of Will route it will quickly become the same shell you see Oath, and Tezz have around them. I'm interested in a new archetype, and a new archetype sometimes requires new philosophies.

I think you are wrong about Force of Will.  It is extremely useful it preventing your opponent from going "broken" before you can do anything relevant.  Try to compare the most broken play an Enchantress deck can make.  Then think about the other vintage decks out there and their broken plays; you simply cannot compete with that.  If you have enough blue cards to support it, FoW will allow you so much leverage against other tier 1 decks.  In your example, say the spell you would have to counter targets Energy Field, well if they bounce Energy Field you would lose anyway so that is not really a good reason to exclude FoW.  And no, not all decks with FoW have to turn into Oath or Tezz, just take a look at Fish for example.  Btw, another blue enchantment to look at is Standstill.

For fun I made a mono green Enchant deck to see if it was even viable.  I think you are at a disadvantage if you don't run the Earthcraft/Squirrel Nest combo.  You honestly don't have a faster win and playing 'not to lose' will only get you so far.  Hidden Guerillas are still the only hidden cards I would play.

[Delha]

I think you are wrong about Force of Will...

Agreed 100% with everything stated about FoW.

Btw, another blue enchantment to look at is Standstill.

For fun I made a mono green Enchant deck to see if it was even viable.  I think you are at a disadvantage if you don't run the Earthcraft/Squirrel Nest combo.  You honestly don't have a faster win and playing 'not to lose' will only get you so far.  Hidden Guerillas are still the only hidden cards I would play.

I'd forgotten Standstill. It could work quite well with the beatdown aspect of this build, but I suspect it will have the same problem as Remora in this list. There is simply nothing reactive to draw into. No FoW, Commandeer or otherwise. I also agree w/ the above regarding Squirrelcraft and Hidden Guerillas.

...This also lessens the effectiveness of Energy Field sans Wheel of Sun and Moon.  Trying to counter something to protect it only kills it.

The goal of FoW isn't to protect your bombs, it is there to stop those of your opponent. The reason I was questioning your test results so heavily before was that I simply cannot see how you manage to assemble Enchantress and Words before Tezz is able to put together Key/Vault. Considering that they have permission and tutors, and you lack anything to disrupt them similarly, it just seems like an uphill battle. Can you give us more sample games, as you did before?

Also, many of your arguments and card choices seem to be biased heavily towards the Tezz matchup. I very highly suggest testing against Oath, MUD, and Selkie. I think that doing so will lead to some very ugly blowouts, and highlight some overly narrow cards in your list.

[TheShop]

With remora and standstill: these obviously have some dissynergy...but only when in play at the same time.  I have never seen these run together...but don't thy both do the same thing:  deter opponent from playing spells until you can do something relevant? 

With force these seem to have implications for slowing the game to a managable level.  Completely untested though.

[Fraggle]

Alright, it looks like i have my work cut out for me for a while.  I will proxy up Oath, MUD, TPS, and Selkie in addition to Dredge, and Tezz, and I will comment on all the match-ups.

This will take me a bit of time though.

I stand completely corrected on Force of Will.  I run a few test matches (once again against Tezz) with 4 in there + 4 Counterbalance
Removing (2) Eryao (1) Utopia Sprawl (1) Enchantress Presence (3) Hidden Herd (1) Wheel of Sun and Moon, and the match-up felt stronger.

Note on Counterbalance: It was probably just luck, but that enchantment alone countered 4 spells in one match with no deck manipulation (Vampiric Tutor, Voltaic Key, Mox Jet, Mystical Tutor) it saved that match.
 
Note on Wheel of Sun and Moon:  Currently I'm on the stance that in vintage it only minimally helps Energy Field.  Anything that stops can destroy Energy Field also destroys Wheel of Sun and Moon, and it will often lead to a 2 for 1 when targeting wheel.  therefore in the long run Wheel MAY not be needed, and we could use Energy Field as more of a temp stop.

I did test with Standstill in the past with poor results, but there are some major changes from that past build.  I picked up the Hiddens, and Energy Field both of which help to control the board better making Standstill stronger.  Couldn't this also just help the 1 card win player sculpt the perfect hand with backup to win, or at the very least get a handful of counter-magic? 

My issues with Squirrel-craft are:
-it is 2 cards for 5 mana
-each piece screams counter me
-requires a basic forest

Whereas Word of Winds is:
-2 cards for 4 mana
-1 of which will most likely not be countered (mana enchant) and has more synergy with the rest of the deck.
-Does not require a basic forest

...but if Squirrel-craft is what we would like to test then our deck is almost built for us.

It would need the following if running Root Maze:

-17 blue spell minimum including Force of Will
-6 Forests less the risky Crop Rotation (1 in 10 chance to find one that give you 3 turns for your 3cc card)
-18 Remaining mana sources
-4 Argothian Encahntress
-3 Earthcraft minimum
-3 Squirrel's Nest minimum
-4 Root Maze
-8 more 1cc or less spells to do something turn 1 [if running (4) Mystic Remora] (16 total)

That is 63 cards.

...so we would need another (4) 1cc blue spell (Seal of Removal? Spell Peirce?)  If my math is right this leave no room for Seal of Primordium, and Hidden spells.

This frees up a bit without Root Maze.  Thoughts on that?

[Fraggle]

For fun I made a mono green Enchant deck to see if it was even viable. 

Just out of curiosity do you have a list of what you tried?

Did it include Guttural Response to help with Permission, and U tutors?

Also did you consider include Manamorphose to help combo like much in the same way Frantic Search did in old Extended builds?

[Delha]

Counterbalance: Your list is very heavily weighted towards 1CC, it's no surprise to me that you got three hits on single cost spells.

Standstill: You should not cast Standstill without a dominant position. Basically, make sure to have an active Hidden (or Squirrel Nest) first.

Squirrelcraft vs Words: Actually the combo is not the two cards you named, it is Enchantress + Words. Any single cost enchant should do well for the loop, with a Sprawl only being slightly better. That said, Enchantress screams "COUNTER ME" more than any other card in the deck. Nobody really ought to care about a solo Nest or Craft. The effect from either alone is unimpressive. Also, Nest can go on any basic, not just Forests.

It would need the following if running Root Maze:

-17 blue spell minimum including Force of Will
-6 Forests less the risky Crop Rotation (1 in 10 chance to find one that give you 3 turns for your 3cc card)
-18 Remaining mana sources
-4 Argothian Encahntress
-3 Earthcraft minimum
-3 Squirrel's Nest minimum
-4 Root Maze
-8 more 1cc or less spells to do something turn 1 [if running (4) Mystic Remora] (16 total)

• Enchantress sees a lot of cards, and the blue enchants often sit for a while (extra Remoras/Fields) in hand. FoW may be able to get away with 14-16 blue spells.
• I'm not sure what you were saying about Forests and Crop Rotation there, can you clarify?
• 2xCraft and 2xNest may be fine. I'd probably test at 3xNest first.
• You don't absolutely have to have 12 one drops. Land-go is better than land-MountainGoat-go.

[Fraggle]

• I'm not sure what you were saying about Forests and Crop Rotation there, can you clarify?

You could Crop Rotate, [or Land Grant for that matter] into a basic Forest ...correction basic land to help with the probability of having one when you need it, and run fewer basics to help the playability of   or   cc spells. ...but it's risk [counter ability / Standstill dis-synergy] may likely out weigh its reward.

• You don't absolutely have to have 12 one drops. Land-go is better than land-MountainGoat-go.

haha point taken.  ...but it is worth mentioning that each mana above 1 the relevancy / explosiveness of enchantress's draw ability wains.

[Fraggle]

Okay I wrote out 2 Tezz Matches (it's all I had time for):

T hand: Fetch, Magus of the Unseen, Bob, Thirst for Knowladge, Rack and Ruin, Underground Sea, Force of Will

E hand: Counterbalance, Shock Dual, Top, Argothian Enchantress, Root Maze, Counterbalance, Enchantress Presence

T1: Fetch -> Volcanic (19)

E1: (didn't write draw) Shock Dual -> Root Maze (18)

T2: (Brainstorm) U. Sea, Brainstorm [Tolarian, Force of Will, Bob] [Put back: Magus then Tolarian] (19)

E2: (Mystic Remora) Hidden Guerrillas (18)

T3: (Magus) Bob (19)

T4: (Bob: Tolarian) (Misdirection) Tolarian, Magus Att: Bob[16] (19)

E4: (Remora) Counterbalance (Foce of Will: Misdirection [18]) (16)

T5: (bob: Chain of Vapor (17))(Hurkyls Recall) Att: bob, magus [13] (18)

E5: (Shock Dual) shock (rooted) Counterbalance (Force: Hurkyls [16]) (13)

T6 (B: Crypt)(vault) Att: Bob, Magus [10])(16)

E6: (Hidden Guerrillas) Argothian -> Hidden Guerrillas (e draw: Root Maze) (10)

T7: (B: Denomic Tutor(14)) (Time Walk) D Tutor (voltaic key) Crypt, Time Walk, Key (14)

T8: (B: Mana Drain (12)) (Inkwell) vault win

Tezz 1 & 0

Edit: I guess Tezz could have bob'ed themselves to death, but I guess I scooped so Game 1 to Tezz.


Game 2
T hand 1: (2) Force of Will, Island, Vampiric Tutor, Inkwell, Mox Sapphire, Chain of Vapor (redraw due to Inky)
T hand 2: Force of Will, Top, Drain, Mox Jet, Bob, Mox Ruby

E hand: (2) Remora, (3) island, Shock Dual, Enchantress Presence

E1: Island, Remaora (20)

T1: Ruby, Jet (remora draws: Force of Will, Counterbalance) Bob (20) [in retrospect I should have possibly countered the second mox especially Jet]

E2: Pay (Argothian) Shock (tapped) (20)

T2: (B: Voltaic Key [19])(Force of Will) Att: bob [18] (19)

E3: pay (Hidden Guerrillas) Forest, Hidden Guerrillas (18)

T3: (B: u sea) (Mystical Tutor) u sea, Mystical [tinker] (remora draw: Root Maze) Att: bob [16](19)

E4: did not pay remora (Force of Will) island, Argothian {Force of will: Mana Drain [18]} Counterbalance {Force of Will: Time Walk [17]} (16)

T4: (B: Tinker [14])(crypt) Tinker: Sac Ruby {Force of Will: Remora [15]} Att: bob [13] (14)

E5: (Counterbalance) Island, Enchantress Presence, Counterbalance (E draw: Enchantress Presence) (13)

T5: (B: fetch)(Mana Drain) Fetch -> U sea Att: Bob [11] (13)

E6: (top) top, Root Maze (E: Mox Sapphire) Mox Saph. (11)

T6: (B:Inky [4])(fetch) Fetch tapped Att: Bob [9] (4)

E7: (Shock Dual) topped [foce of will, Enchantress Pressence, Forest] Enchantress Pressence (e: Enchantress Pressence) Shock: Tapped (9)

T7 (B: Darkblast [3])(tolarian) Tolarian Att: Bob [7] Darkblasts bob (3) E:topps

E8: (Argothian) Argothian {drained}, Enchantress Presence (e: Enchantress Presence) (7)

T8: (Mox Emerald) E:topps

E9: (Energy Field) Energy Field, (e: Wheel of Sun and Moon, Word of Winds) WoWinds (e draw opt out bounce 2) leads to win

Tied 1-1

[madmanmike25]

Just out of curiosity do you have a list of what you tried?

Remember, I just made this list to break myself into the whole Enchantress archtype.  I'm quite sure this list isn't optimal but since you asked here goes:

4 Yavimaya Enchantress
4 Argothian Enchantress

4 Wild Growth
4 Earthcraft
4 Squirrel Nest
4 Exploration
1 Fastbond
4 Root Maze
4 Hidden Guerillas
2 Sylvan Library
1 Mirris Guile
2 Garruk Wildspeaker

8 Green fetchlands
9 Forest
3 Waste+Strip
2 Mox+Lotus

Mirris Guile and Sylvan Library are pretty good to help you find the combo, especially with the fetchlands.  I'm sure if I were to test this list further I would add Seals or Rods in it.

[Delha]

Your notation this time was a lot harder to follow. I appreciate the extra info, but I think the old format was just easier to read.

Your Tezz list has mainboard Magus of the Unseen? And R&R? If these are post-side games, that seems like even more of a headscratcher. What build are you're using?

Game 2:
T1: I'd have let Jet go, since you can't assume he has no other mana. I would have fought over Bob though, since at that point he's got only 3 cards left and you have another FoW for whatever's left.

T2: Why no Top? Bob is on the table, and there's not UU to hold for Drain...

T3: Mainphase Mystical? Why not mainphase key, EOT Mystical for Tinker? If he hits a mana source next turn, he goes infi right away. He has double FoW backup too (not sure when he drew Time Walk). There's no point in stopping Enchantress when he can just win next turn. CB might be shakier, but knowing your list, your odds of flipping Presence or Words is under 10%. Even if he doesn't rip mana, he only needs to survive one turn, and you're not pressuring him at all. The only way you can kill Vault is with through removal with double backup. If you cast pretty much anything else, he just runs through his deck until he can bounce it and blow you out.

[Fraggle]

T2: Why no Top? Bob is on the table, and there's not UU to hold for Drain...

T3: Mainphase Mystical? Why not mainphase key, EOT Mystical for Tinker? If he hits a mana source next turn, he goes infi right away. He has double FoW backup too (not sure when he drew Time Walk). There's no point in stopping Enchantress when he can just win next turn. CB might be shakier, but knowing your list, your odds of flipping Presence or Words is under 10%. Even if he doesn't rip mana, he only needs to survive one turn, and you're not pressuring him at all. The only way you can kill Vault is with through removal with double backup. If you cast pretty much anything else, he just runs through his deck until he can bounce it and blow you out.

I guess style of play... Why give Mystic Remora more draws when you can just wait it out?

I've played this match many times and if you play as though Mystic Remora, or a Hidden has not hit the table, you will typically become over-run.  Odds for enchantress winning goes way up.  This may be different now that there are fewer hiddens to run you down though.

As for Key, Hidden Guerrillas hit the table, and Bob was clocking just fine as is.  Play key no more clock. As a matter of fact 5 turns to your loss less a bounce or another Bob. That is if enchantress does not land other beats in the mean time.

As for the Tezz list I can't find it but it was one what won a major tourney found 6 months ago on SCG when I put it together.

[Delha]

I guess style of play... Why give Mystic Remora more draws when you can just wait it out?

I've played this match many times and if you play as though Mystic Remora, or a Hidden has not hit the table, you will typically become over-run.  Odds for enchantress winning goes way up.  This may be different now that there are fewer hiddens to run you down though.

As for Key, Hidden Guerrillas hit the table, and Bob was clocking just fine as is.  Play key no more clock. As a matter of fact 5 turns to your loss less a bounce or another Bob. That is if enchantress does not land other beats in the mean time.

The list I can't find it but it was one what won a major tourney found 6 months ago on SCG when I put it together.

Top: That logic is inconsistent with the actions taken in T3. If Tezz truly wanted to wait out Remora, mainphase Mystical makes even less sense. Waiting out Remora also works better with top, as he can keep hitting land drops and set up for a big turn once it dies.

Key: E is at 16 on turn three. It will take eight more turns to win at that rate, whereas going for Vault means a win next turn (two at most). Why would you give your opponent eight more turns when you don't need to? It's not like you'd even be leaving yourself open here, double Force is solid and doesn't care if you're tapped or not.

[Fraggle]

I guess style of play... Why give Mystic Remora more draws when you can just wait it out?

I've played this match many times and if you play as though Mystic Remora, or a Hidden has not hit the table, you will typically become over-run.  Odds for enchantress winning goes way up.  This may be different now that there are fewer hiddens to run you down though.

As for Key, Hidden Guerrillas hit the table, and Bob was clocking just fine as is.  Play key no more clock. As a matter of fact 5 turns to your loss less a bounce or another Bob. That is if enchantress does not land other beats in the mean time.

The list I can't find it but it was one what won a major tourney found 6 months ago on SCG when I put it together.

Top: That logic is inconsistent with the actions taken in T3. If Tezz truly wanted to wait out Remora, mainphase Mystical makes even less sense. Waiting out Remora also works better with top, as he can keep hitting land drops and set up for a big turn once it dies.

Key: E is at 16 on turn three. It will take eight more turns to win at that rate, whereas going for Vault means a win next turn (two at most). Why would you give your opponent eight more turns when you don't need to? It's not like you'd even be leaving yourself open here, double Force is solid and doesn't care if you're tapped or not.

Well... That's depressing.  ...you're absolutely right.

...and to see this only means plays like this have been missed over many matches.  many many matches.  As you have tried to tell me before.

From that foundation all "testing" is at a loss, and it isn't much of a jump at all to say I'm too rusty to be playing Tier 1 Vintage magic, let alone innovating an archetype that many have tried and given up on before.

Quite frankly, I'm at a loss.

[Delha]

Don't take it too hard. At the end of the day, Magic is a hobby, and hobbies should be about your enjoyment. Just keep the deck to casual playgroups, and have fun with it. If you are mostly playing this with friends who are equally rusty, nothing really needs to be optimized. Among lots of my old playgroup, I had a bad rep for playing stuff that was too broken (and most of that was jank that would never go anywhere in real competition).

By nature, we ride all decks pretty hard, even in the Improvement Forum. That's the whole point of a think tank, right? If your local meta is the kitchen table, I think Enchantress is a fine choice. As always, just pick a set of guidelines, and we can work from there.

[Fraggle]

Ah, no worries.  It's good to ride decks hard that is where improvement comes from.

I'll keep messing around with it to see if I can crack the code, but I don't know if there is anything to give a play by play about anymore.

Thanks all

[Fraggle]

Alright, alright, I'm not quite ready to give up just yet.

Here is a simple list, that just may work.  It takes ideas from Delha's point of view, and Masta on an old thread.  It is 

Black simply for the efficient cheap discard disruption, and it looks outside the world of enchantments for the win. 

Here is the list:
4 Duress
4 Thoughtseize
4 Rootmaze
4 Argothian Enchantress
3 Earthcraft
3 Squirrel's Nest
4 Exploration
4 Bloodghast
3 Abundance
3 Sylvian Library
4 Bayou
4 Overgrown Tomb
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Black Lotus
6 Swamp
4 Forest

The reason this completely untested list excites me is it is very simple, and tough to disrupt fully. With a lower curve than most enchantress decks.

2 0cc spells
16 1cc spells (8 Enchantments)
14 2cc spells (6 Enchantments)
3 3cc spells (3 Enchantments)
3 4cc spells (3 Enchantments)

It could probably use the Seal of Primorduim's but this is what I came up with when I started tying to build an enchantress deck from a probability point a view.

Discards should give this a better match-ups than previously discussed versions with permission, and TPS.

You could board 4 wheels of Sun and moon for dredge, or there may be room to find a strip set. to help all match-ups.

Still have Squirrel-craft, but pick up the annoying Bloodghasts.  We all know how well enchantress can lay a land down.

This version also explores the Abundance / Sylvian Library combo to gain CA, gain richer draws, and ration land draw / drops.

If anyone still has it in them to discuss, I'd love to hear improvements.

[BruiZar]

Could you explain how all the interactions work from that list? I don't understand the Bloodghasts. Am I missing something?

I'm not sure if I understand how you win once the combo is online without passing the turn. Concordant Crossroads as a one off seems like a good way to finish it now. I would also add one or two main krosan grips, to prevent blowouts from vault key.

I don't understand why you are running exploration but no fastbond. Abundance and S. Library look slow, but i havent tested it. I would certainly add off color moxen, or chalice of the void / null rod.

Why would I play this over combo elves?

[madmanmike25]

Duress/Sieze/Maze is already 12 disruption cards, adding Chalice or Rod is just playing to stop your opponent and not really playing to win.   Maybe Maze could go out on the draw for Rod sb.

Some suggestions:
-4 Bloodghasts +4 Dark Confidant.  Look, now you have 2 draw engines.  The average cc of this deck is low enough.
-3 Abundance, +1 Earthcraft +1 Squirrel Nest +1 Mirris Guile(Guile+Confidant rocks)
-1 Sylvan Library +1 Mirris Guile.  This is just a balance issue for me.  Turn 1 Duress, Turn 2 Seize+Guile.  It lets you play two 1 drops on turn 2 whereas Library would have to wait.  Minor, but thats what I would do.

I count your list at 57 cards.  Good.  Add Demonic Tutor, Vamp Tutor, and a land.  21 sources seem low.

Edit:  Agreed about Fastbond, cut 1 Exploration for it.

[Delha]

Agreed w/ cutting an Exploration for Fastbond.

Agreed with cutting the Ghasts. If you want renewable beaters, I'd run Words of Wilding first. It serves as a way to use the excess draws that often result from having two Argothians down, and pulls cute mana tricks with Earthcraft. Not sure about Bob, but I'd certainly try it.

Agreed with cutting Sylvan/Abundance, both are painfully slow. The latter is also hard to support with your light manabase.

Agreed w/ adding the black Tutors. I'd also mention that this deck often natually overcomes the primary drawback of Imperial Seal.

Agreed w/ needing artifact kill. I'd say run a full set of Seal of Primordium, or maybe a 3/1 split with Krosan Grip. I'd probably stack Nature's Claim in the side as well. There's no shortage of targets to kill these days.

Maybe 1 Holistic Wisdom. Without Replenish or tutors, getting back individual cards becomes relevant. If you do this, add a Strip so it can double as a poor man's Crucible. Also serves as a way to dump extra/unnecessary Bobs if your Enchantresses get countered.

No Enchantress's Presence? Opening a hand with no Enchantress effects is always saddening. Including Bob mitigates this a bit, but I think I'd still try the list with 2xPresence.

[Fraggle]

FYI - Since I do not think Enchantress is viable in Vintage, and I did not know where to post Legacy info on this site I have created this thread on another site.
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?20454-Kor-Spiritdancer-{Enchantress-y}-B-W

It is to try and make a Legacy viable Kor Spiritdancer based deck.  It is a White / Black discard based version.  If your interested take a look.  Thank you.

[Fraggle]

This isn't just to bump this thread.  I just wanted to thank everyone for their help.  This thread had pointed me in the right direction to start to find success in a Legacy version of this deck found at the link above.  I learned a lot here.  Especially Delha's style of deck development.  Stay focused, and test ideas out. 

Many recommendations made the cut, and the philosophies are certainly carried through the list. 

I gave credit to this thread as it is due.

Thank you all again for pointing me in the right direction, and hope to see ya in a Legacy tourney.

Fraggle.