Sperling's 5cStax

[PETER FLUGZEUG]

regarding seals:

Do not forget that anyone brings in claims against you now, so your seals might get wasted when the opponent wants to go infinite or do nasty oath stuff.

[matt_sperling]

Have you considered cutting Sundering Titan?  Without Tinker and only 2 Bazaars it seems like it can be dead pretty often.  I would think that Tinker, Smokestack number 4, or another land would benefit the deck.

I have considered and still do consider cutting it.  I welded it in MUCH more frequently than I Tinkered it up when I was running Tinker, so I figured it could stick around.  I also hard cast it a fair amount, especially when you draw Crucible + Bazaar to dig up a couple Shops.  If I was going to cut it, I'd add the 4th Smokestack like you suggested.  Cutting the robot to add the Tinker back in seems like something they would do in Catch-22 =].  

Part of me wonders if you want a 2nd Bazaar if you no longer have the Titan.  Perhaps I could try -1 Titan, -1 Bazaar,+1 Smokestack +1 Wasteland, or something similar.  For now I like 2 Bazaar and will keep my eye on the Titan.  If he isn't pulling his weight he will become Smokestack and I'll take a long look at the 2nd Bazaar.

[TheShop]

Interestig side note: 90% of the time I cast tinker, it finds trinisphere, smokestack, or crucible.(to complete the trifecta)

[heiner]

I don't know. Im not sure whether we should take T8 appearances as a metric but at least Europe is soo dominated by Mud. Nobody plays 5c Stax, I think its just much worse. There are constantly T8ing 3 MUDs or so since years even before Golem was printed. I haven't seen 5c stax over here for a while, within 10 stax players maybe one plays 5c, the other 9 just play MUD. 5c is outdated IMHO.

[Oath of Happy]

In some areans, a huge problem with Stax is that the more you fine tune it towards Force of Will decks, the worse is gets in the Worshop matchups.  Therefore, you get beat by mirror matchups that don't win in the top 8 because they get beat by blue decks.

[Twaun007]

In some areans, a huge problem with Stax is that the more you fine tune it towards Force of Will decks, the worse is gets in the Worshop matchups.  Therefore, you get beat by mirror matchups that don't win in the top 8 because they get beat by blue decks.

That's the fundamental problem with tuning a hate deck. The problem I see with optimizing a 5cStax list is that the meta so diverse right now. We have Oath, Tezzeret, MUD, Dredge, Noble Fish, and now TPS is starting to rear its ugly head. Regardless of how we tune a 5cStax list we're still going to be weak against half the field.

Perhaps the real question is, what benefits are we going to gain by combating the meta with 5cStax? 

[TheShop]

You guys are probably correct that it is not the best choice currently, but it never ceases to amaze me how fast people are to write this deck off.  It seems like every 2-3 years someone declares that 5 color is suboptimal or dead...yet it continues to have some very good matchups..  I don't think it's a terrible choice right now, but I can understand MUD being very enticing.

My reckoning:  combo and drain players don't want to play against it, and don't play with it...so they say that it must be bad.

BTW- this wasn't aimed at anyone in particular and wasn't meant to offend.

[Delha]

You guys are probably correct that it is not the best choice currently, but it never ceases to amaze me how fast people are to write this deck off.  It seems like every 2-3 years someone declares that 5 color is suboptimal or dead...yet it continues to have some very good matchups..  I don't think it's a terrible choice right now, but I can understand MUD being very enticing.

I'd say people gravitate towards whatever deck they believe to have the best matchups (weighted for their meta), with exceptions being made for personal preference, card availability issues, etc...

While 5c Stax might hypothetically have good odds against 8 of 10 matchups, if Oath has good odds in 9 of those same matchups, Stax becomes a suboptimal choice. It's just that in a highly competitive environment, selection criteria tend become increasingly stringent. That's not just MtG, you can find example in practically any professional sport or other competition.

[matt_sperling]

You guys are probably correct that it is not the best choice currently, but it never ceases to amaze me how fast people are to write this deck off.  It seems like every 2-3 years someone declares that 5 color is suboptimal or dead...yet it continues to have some very good matchups..  I don't think it's a terrible choice right now, but I can understand MUD being very enticing.

I'd say people gravitate towards whatever deck they believe to have the best matchups (weighted for their meta), with exceptions being made for personal preference, card availability issues, etc...

While 5c Stax might hypothetically have good odds against 8 of 10 matchups, if Oath has good odds in 9 of those same matchups, Stax becomes a suboptimal choice. It's just that in a highly competitive environment, selection criteria tend become increasingly stringent. That's not just MtG, you can find example in practically any professional sport or other competition.

Perhaps a nitpick, perhaps not: it doesn't follow that if deck A has good matchups 9/10 and deck B 8/10, deck A is a better choice.  The actual edge each deck has matters, as well as the frequency of all the decks in the field.  Slight edge vs everything could be a much worse deck choice than significant edge vs a few major players.

[Delha]

Perhaps a nitpick, perhaps not: it doesn't follow that if deck A has good matchups 9/10 and deck B 8/10, deck A is a better choice.  The actual edge each deck has matters, as well as the frequency of all the decks in the field.  Slight edge vs everything could be a much worse deck choice than significant edge vs a few major players.

For the sake of simplicity, I was calling those edges identical. Since we're only talking hypothetical decks, we can say "all else equal", even when we realize that reality never breaks down so cleanly.

[LotusHead]

Congrats on the win!  Good to see a tutorless 5cStax put up some results.  Looking forward to discussion of card choices, assuming I can find it when it goes up on the new TMD.  

No problem. I spent the months playing MUD varients (and Crushing Chamber, etc ) capitolizing on Thorn and then Lodestone Golem.
When I got tired of losing games to Ancient Tomb, I decided to go back to Welders.  Your 5cStax list on www.channelfireball.com started as the baseline.  I started with 3 Ancient Stirrings instead of Chalice Welder and Crop Rotation.  It was fun, I split top 4 for $140 store credit.
Next time, no Ancient Stirrings as I wanted Balance Crop Rotation maindeck.
This time, I tweaked my deck for the local meta and hoped for the best.

// Lands
    1  Bazaar of Baghdad
    3  City of Brass
    3  Gemstone Mine
    4  Mishra's Workshop
    1  Strip Mine
    1  Tolarian Academy
    3  Wasteland
    1  Mishra's Factory (4)

// Creatures
    1  Duplicant
    4  Goblin Welder
    4  Lodestone Golem
    1  Sundering Titan
    1  Triskelion

// Spells
    3  Chalice of the Void
    2  Crucible of Worlds
    1  Mana Crypt
    1  Sol Ring
    1  Mana Vault
    1  Black Lotus
    1  Mox Emerald
    1  Mox Jet
    1  Mox Ruby
    1  Mox Sapphire
    3  Null Rod
    3  Smokestack
    4  Tangle Wire
    1  Tinker
    1  Trinisphere
    1  Ancestral Recall
    1  Mox Pearl
    3  Thorn of Amethyst
    1  Crop Rotation
    1  Balance

// Sideboard
SB: 2  Duplicant
SB: 1  Thorn of Amethyst
SB: 1  Aven Mindcensor
SB: 1  Red Elemental Blast
SB: 2  Choke
SB: 1  Sculpting Steel
SB: 1  Diabolic Edict
SB: 1  Echoing Truth
SB: 2  Seal of Cleansing
SB: 2  Rack and Ruin
SB: 1  Suppression Field

Card Choices:
Bazaar of Baghdad. I played 1 instead of 2 because I only own one, and with Crop Rotation, I felt 1 Bazaar was enough.  It's only really good with Welder out, and Welder doesn't always see play.
1 Mishra's Factory.  I wanted an extra beater vs Oath of Druids/Fish/maybe Goblins.  Also, with Crucible, It was a "free weld target" especially post Hurkyl's Recall if Welder was on the field.
1 Triskellion.  I am always nervous playing Shops without the token Trike.  Last tourney, Klemic got Painter Grindstone off at 3 life, I had Welder in play, but no Trike maindeck due to Null Rods.  I had to tell myself, that I play Null Rods and moxen, and Trike at worst is a 4/4 beater.
2 Crucible: Teammate Austin tried to convince me that as the Stax Player, I have ALMOST only permanents in my deck, and I will always win the permanent war, so 3 or 4 is too many. I won't play with less than 2.
4 Tangle Wire: This is a combo with Lodestone Golem, Smokestack and Thorn of Amethyst.  It's just awesome right now, and 2 is WAY too few, 3 good enough, but 4 is the awesome sauce.
1 Balance, no tutor: If I get it in hand, then my opponent won't know about it, and I can maximize its use.  It's proved its value resetting the board, giving me control of the gamestate.  Agains Webster in the Finals, I had it in my hand game 1 with Emerald and Pearl out as my only board presence.  I sandbagged it, waiting to get better value, but I didn't do the math correctly, and Balance was rendered useless in the Oath War.
1 Crop Rotation: I rarely play this card, and am trying to give it a shot.  I think I played it a few times but don't remember.  It's been stellar on MWS, but that doesn't say much.

Sideboard:
2 Duplicant Hate against most decks
1 Thorn Hate vs Storm/Tez/Blue Decks.  Anything but creature decks, really.
1 Aven Mindsensor Hate vs Tutor.dec and Fetch.dec. Actually, this card was overkill as I had plenty of other stuff to bring in. But the Ninja factor of it always makes me want to keep it.
1 REB Hey, if I get it, cool.  I won't play their game and side in 4 of these, as they will always have more counters than me..  If I get it, great.
2 Choke: Hate vs Basic.dec.  Also, I own 2 now, so it's an option. I'll likely go down to 1 in the future for same reason as REB.  If I get it, great.
1 Sculpting Steel: For mirror/MUD matches and confirmed Inkwell Leviathon decks.
1 Diabolic Edit: Vs Oath and Tinker Fatties
1 Echoing Truth: Vs everything, but mostly Oath and Tinker Fatties
2 Seal of Cleansing: Vs Oath, Shops and Time Vault decks
2 Rack n Ruin: There were a lot of usual shop players there, but some chose to experiment with blue/black cards that day.  Ancient Grudges might have been better, but adding Rack N Ruin was a last minute meta call.
1 Suppression Field: Sensei's Divining Top, Jace, Tezz, Fetchlands, Library at Alexandria, Voltaic Key, Time Vault, Shivan Dragon.  This came up game 2 in finals vs TPS/Vault.dec.  It hurt me as much as it hurt them, which means that it hurt them bad and make my Smokestack awesome (sac a useless top/Time Vault, etc) but there were other lock pieces in the puzzle.

On sideboarding, we all have to revise our strategies every time G2 or G3 happens.  My deck is geared to hate out the Blue Decks, but Oath decks have so many different ways of winning, that they can often get there by countering my first two threats, then play something broken.
On a particular matchup, I decide what cards in the sideboard are good, and then look at the maindeck and find out what cards are not as good (like 2nd Crucible, Mana Crypt, Trike, Crop Rotation, 4th Welder, 4th Golem, maybe a Smokestack etc) and then only side in cards that can replace cards that are not as good.  So if I have 6 cards I am willing to side out, that means on 6 of 10 SB cards can make it in.  If I am on the draw, then I can side out say 2 Chalices, for 2 more better cards..

That's it for now (gots to go to work).

[matt_sperling]

Thanks for the update!!  Lots to digest and possibly incorporate into my list.  If you ever wanna bounce an idea off me shoot me a PM, I like your feel for the deck and willingness to experiment.

[TheShop]

This may just be nostalgia speaking, but I would probably move Balance to the sideboard and run Crucible #3.  I have run 2 Crucibles, 3, and 4.  4 always felt like I had one dead in hand and 2 felt like I wasnt playing with them.  If it gets countered, I want a reasonable chance to see another one.  Also, you are running less Bazaar now and less tutor power- so consistency of getting this card will be at an all-time low.

Maybe a balancing factor you are seeing to combat the lack of crucible is that the other guy is dead before enough land recursion could occur.

[LotusHead]

This may just be nostalgia speaking, but I would probably move Balance to the sideboard and run Crucible #3.  I have run 2 Crucibles, 3, and 4.  4 always felt like I had one dead in hand and 2 felt like I wasnt playing with them.  If it gets countered, I want a reasonable chance to see another one.  Also, you are running less Bazaar now and less tutor power- so consistency of getting this card will be at an all-time low.

Maybe a balancing factor you are seeing to combat the lack of crucible is that the other guy is dead before enough land recursion could occur.

Playing Balance, especially without tutors, is an experiment.  Instead of having a Tutor in hand, I have a Bomb in hand.

For Crucible #3, I see Waste X3 and Strip and Smokestack X3 playing one big package role, LodestoneX4 and Thorn/Sphere x4 playing another package role, and Chalice X3 Null Rod x3 playing another package role.  

and 2 felt like I wasnt playing with them.  If it gets countered, I want a reasonable chance to see another one.

If I have Smokestack out, I will ride it out, ramp it up and hope to out permanent them (or get Crucible or Welder online eventually)  Crucible is mostly to recur permanents, but if I can get some usefull Wasteland recursion, then great.  Plus, Welders can get back the dead Crucible, and I play 4 of those.

Bazaar is also "random bomb" llike Balance.  But sometimes it is just a permanent to sac to Smokestack.

As far as the balancing factor, I DID add a Trike and a Mishra's Factory to up the beats, and switched Sphere's to Thorns to get my said beats out.  I

Perhaps it is just to deal with my Meta (Lots of Oath, Fish, TezzVault and other good decks, little Ichorid/Standstill/Goblins/homebrew/etc).

All feedback is welcome, just explaining why I keep the maindeck as is for now.