Life total disputes

[Nazdakka]

1)
Arnold has 3 vanilla 3/3s in play and is on 8 life. He uses a notepad to keep track of both players' life totals.
Betty has 2 vanilla 4/4s in play. She uses a dice to keep track of her own life total.

Neither player has any cards in hand and nothing relevant in their graveyards.

Arnold attacks Betty with all of his 3/3s. Before blockers are declared, a dispute breaks out about Betty's life total. Arnold has it recorded as 3 on his notepad, while Betty's dice says 6. A judge is called.

Arnold doesn't have a terribly clear picture of how his opponent got to 3 life (his pad has a series of 3-point deductions from Betty's life total over a few turns) but stands by his own record, saying he thinks Betty might have forgotten to record the life loss from an attack.

Betty has a relatively clear verbal account of the game, and insists her opponent must have accidentally double-recorded the damage from a previous attack.

The outcome of the game hinges on this decision. Which value of Betty's life would you accept as true?

Would your ruling change if attackers had not been declared yet?

2)
Exactly the same as above except:
Betty has an additional 2/2 creature in play.
Blockers have been declared, and Betty has chosen to block a 3/3 with each 4/4, and leave one 3/3 unblocked.


Extra:
Would anything change in either situation if either or both players had a few cards in hand (say two)?
Would anything depend on any personal knowledge you might have of the two players?
Would the REL of the tournament factor into your treatment of the situation?


(EDIT: Betty's account was verbal)

[Clariax]

There is absolutely no way to answer this question.  As a judge, given a situation like this, you talk to the players, determine what you feel is accurate, and make it so.  A short text description of what a player says cannot possibly replace actually talking to a player.

[Delha]

There is absolutely no way to answer this question.  As a judge, given a situation like this, you talk to the players, determine what you feel is accurate, and make it so.  A short text description of what a player says cannot possibly replace actually talking to a player.

Would I be correct in guessing that having Betty having clear and detailed notes is a point in her favor, at the very least?

[Nazdakka]

There is absolutely no way to answer this question.  As a judge, given a situation like this, you talk to the players, determine what you feel is accurate, and make it so.  A short text description of what a player says cannot possibly replace actually talking to a player.

Fair enough, I can understand that. I'm as much interested in the kinds of thing that would you be looking for when you talk to the players, and what resolutions you would consider. Would you be able to comment on that?

Thanks,

(Just so you know, this doesn't relate to a recent incident, and it wasn't a big issue for anyone concerned. It's loosely based on something that happened to me several years ago in an informal limited event, with me in Arnold's position)

[Clariax]

What I would be looking for is whatever information is available that leads me to determine the correct life total.  And there's really only one resolution to consider (assuming neither party is cheating, we all know how that gets resolved), determine what Betty's life total is.  There's no set method for doing any of this.  You talk to the players, ask the questions that need asking, determine what the proper answer is and move on.

[Cyberpunker]

There is absolutely no way to answer this question.  As a judge, given a situation like this, you talk to the players, determine what you feel is accurate, and make it so.  A short text description of what a player says cannot possibly replace actually talking to a player.

I read somewhere that judges and the rules say to go with the person that is recording the life totals with a pen and paper first...

Is this true? I remember the reason was because the rules say that the life totals should be recorded with a pen and paper.

[InfectedMushroom]

That would still not stop the person who is recording using a pen and paper, from making a mistake. It has been pointed out that many variables have to be taken into account and the judge must get all the information he can, and reach a decision based on that.

It is very situational, and would be incorrect to assume the person recording with paper is automatically correct.

[Norm4eva]

It hasn't been explicitly mentioned yet - isn't this part of accurately representing the game state?  Do players get warnings for having disagreements regarding life totals, or is it commonplace enough that players get a little bit of leeway (so long as it's not a recurring issue with one or both players)?

[Cyberpunker]

Okay to rephrase my question. Let's say there was no way of knowing for sure what happened in the game. And it was basically Player A's word against Player B's word. Maybe they disagreed and one said that 2 creatures attacked 2 turns ago while the other said that only 1 attacked 2 turns ago.

What would happen then? Would there be any default judgement in favor of the pen and paper guy?

[Clariax]

There is no default, no.  And there's no way you can substitute actually hearing from the players and being able to ask them questions with a couple short text sentences.

Okay to rephrase my question. Let's say there was no way of knowing for sure what happened in the game. And it was basically Player A's word against Player B's word. Maybe they disagreed and one said that 2 creatures attacked 2 turns ago while the other said that only 1 attacked 2 turns ago.

What would happen then? Would there be any default judgement in favor of the pen and paper guy?