Ritual Based Combo in Today's Metagame

[Killane]

I made a mistake with who was cutting Cabal Rituals.  You're playing 2, which is probably even more of a reason to keep Grim Tutor in TPS.

The problem I have with Imperial Seal in TPS is that it's way too easy to disrupt.    It gives your opponent enough time to really put the hurt on you.  In one turn, the whole gamestate can, and often does change, and can make you look like a fool with that Imperial Seal card stuck on top of your deck.   At gencon, I was able to Seal for Yawgmoth's Will, just to have Vincent Forino cast Chalice @ 3, and make me look like an idiot when I fetched away my seal target (I was playing Tezzeret).

Almost everything in Workshop decks right now change gamestates drastically, and sure: Grim is bad in this matchup, but Grim also helps your turn 1 tutor ability.  I would ALWAYS cast Ritual-> Grim, Get lotus in this matchup on Turn 1. 
 
Also, thoughtseizes are at an all-time high.  Sure you can seal recall and get back in the game, but if you're trying to set it up, any decent player will see your plan the minute you reveal your hand, and adjust their plan accordingly.

That, and Jace, The guy everyone will always play 4 of in every blue deck ever because it sculpts your mind is seeing play.

Ask Jesse Martin and Owen Turtenwald how good Imperial Seal is when you have Jace.

Ok, I see your point, however I still think Seal is better given Preordain - you now have 7 draw spells for  that your might consider combining Seal with (perhaps plus  Jace of your own depending on the build). Seal is Bad onl if you have to pass the turn - I rarely find myself doing that when using Seal. I think it's a matter of adapting the play style of the deck to the current Meta, rather than Grim being just better.

Of course, I'd rather be able to run both.

[M.Solymossy]

I usually don't like adding things at the  {1}CC range without cutting others, because I don't really like being chaliceed out of the game.   

For example:  I cut Merch for Preordain because the Scroll is dogshit, but then I cut Imperial Seal for another Preordain because I didn't wnat to decrease my density at different Casting Costs.

[Gandalf_The_White_1]

@ Soly:
Does your list have a decent game against MUD?

[M.Solymossy]

@ Soly:
Does your list have a decent game against MUD?

No clue yet. LOL.

I literally decided on Saturday that I wanted to play Doomsday, threw a list together, and then played it sunday with zero testing.  It felt strong.

[Bibendum]

So any word on how it faired against mud?

[Tonmehr]

I have been working on testing aggressive build TPS.  One of the main issues I have encountered is the Tinker/Robot play.  I have been unable to decide if the use of Tinker Robot against MUD should involve the Sphinx because it can't be raced, or the Colossus because it is the fastest route to victory.  I have read a number of decklists that include the Leviathan but the Leviathan falls short to MUD, though it crushes Vault/Fish/Mirror. Is it insane to keep two robots, one in the sideboard? 

As an aside, should Memory Jar be the 1st Tinker target 95% of the time.

[Commandant]

I have been working on testing aggressive build TPS.  One of the main issues I have encountered is the Tinker/Robot play.  I have been unable to decide if the use of Tinker Robot against MUD should involve the Sphinx because it can't be raced, or the Colossus because it is the fastest route to victory.  I have read a number of decklists that include the Leviathan but the Leviathan falls short to MUD, though it crushes Vault/Fish/Mirror. Is it insane to keep two robots, one in the sideboard? 

As an aside, should Memory Jar be the 1st Tinker target 95% of the time.

I and a few people around my area of Boston have been cutting Tinker and Tinker targets for a while now. Quite frankly Tinker Robot isn't an auto win anymore, each Robot has it's weaknesses; if you were to play one I would think it would depend on your metagame. Personally if Fish were around in great number I would run Inkwell Leviathan. Sphinx is good but easy to remove for B/W splash fish, it does well vs Shops. Colossus is the worst of the bunch IMHO despite the clock, Red Shops (a deck people seem to be switching to because it does well in the mirror) has Welder and a number of decks have targeted bounce/removal.

[Cruel Ultimatum]

If I was to play tps/bob tendrils tomorrow, I would play tinker bot in the sideboard, and play dsc. I would board it in against fish, mud, and dredge (although Marske does not agree on the dredge part) and imo it is best there. Against Mud it is basically the same as sphinx, against fish its probably the same although if you have to tinker without backup I guess DSC is better because of swords, and against dredge it can lead to a win off a quick tinker with or without a small sideboard hate bump for them (jailer, trap, crypt effect) and with leyline of anticipation in the dredge decks, you sometimes need a quick kill that doesnt target.

[Marske]

If I was to play tps/bob tendrils tomorrow, I would play tinker bot in the sideboard, and play dsc. I would board it in against fish, mud, and dredge (although Marske does not agree on the dredge part) and imo it is best there. Against Mud it is basically the same as sphinx, against fish its probably the same although if you have to tinker without backup I guess DSC is better because of swords, and against dredge it can lead to a win off a quick tinker with or without a small sideboard hate bump for them (jailer, trap, crypt effect) and with leyline of anticipation in the dredge decks, you sometimes need a quick kill that doesnt target.

I actually agree with everything you said here including the Tinker - DSC plan and boarding it in...

[Commandant]

What are some other reasons why you feel Tinker DSC is a viable plan? I've yet to find a real problem with the White Leyline. DSC seems bad in the Dredge Matchup, most Dredge decks run Chain of Vapor and Fish tons of removal. Do you feel as though they side out their removal? I'd imagine they would still keep it in for Bob and would splash damage any DSC plan.

I'm new so forgive my lack of knowledge.

[Marske]

What are some other reasons why you feel Tinker DSC is a viable plan? I've yet to find a real problem with the White Leyline. DSC seems bad in the Dredge Matchup, most Dredge decks run Chain of Vapor and Fish tons of removal. Do you feel as though they side out their removal? I'd imagine they would still keep it in for Bob and would splash damage any DSC plan.

I'm new so forgive my lack of knowledge.

If they are using Chain of Vapor to bounce your DSC they aren't using it to bounce Leyline of the Void, Pithing Needle, Jailer. If they don't deal with DSC it puts them on a 2 turn clock. You are forcing them to deal with your hate AND your own game plan or lose to either of them.

Against Fish, It's the same thing, most of the stuff they bring in against storm (looking at Noble Fish here) is aimed at the Storm plan (Cannonist, Mind Break Trap) as they might leave a singleton or 2 off STP in their deck, but without any real draw engine going on + your Duress, Thoughtseize and Force of Will you should be able to get into a 2 turn protected combat step taking them out.

[liontruth]

I only get a robot(i'm using DSC right now) on turn 1 or 2 and if:
 
 - I don't have artifact mana (coz playing jar with only an island in play doesn't seems right)
 - My opponent is not Mirror, ANT or Belcher
 - I'm on Game 3 of Round 5 and really exhausted  
 -

What do you think guys? Am i doing it right?

[Tonmehr]

Thank you for that information.  I think that I have it narrowed down to two choices.

Inkwell Leviathan: His shroud ability is universally recognized.  While not necessarily good against MUD he brings the pain to Tezzeret/Oath as well as Fish and Dredge.  All of these decks however have good ways of dealing with the Tinker/Robot making it a suboptimal play anyway.

Darksteel Colossus: While very susceptible to bounce and removal, he will be huge in matchups against MUD where you really need  your robot to make up for all the sphere/thorn/trinisphere.

I think I like the idea of pushing the robot into the sideboard.

Here is my deck list

Spells (37)      
1 Ancestral Recall      
1 Brainstorm      
2 Cabal Ritual      
1 Chain Of Vapor      
4 Dark Ritual      
4 Force Of Will      
1 Gifts Ungiven      
1 Misdirection  
1 Mystical Tutor      
1 Hurkyl's Recall      
1 Vampiric Tutor      
1 Necropotence      
1 Yawgmoth's Bargain      
1 Demonic Tutor      
2 Duress
2 Thoughtseize    
1 Grim Tutor
1 Tinker    
1 Imperial Seal      
1 Mind's Desire      
1 Imperial Seal    
2 Tendrils Of Agony      
1 Time Walk      
1 Timetwister          
1 Yawgmoth's Will      
1 Merchant Scroll      
1 Memory Jar

Planeswalkers (1)
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor          
            
Manasources (22)            
1 Black Lotus      
1 Lotus Petal      
1 Mana Crypt      
1 Mana Vault      
1 Mox Emerald      
1 Mox Jet      
1 Mox Pearl      
1 Mox Ruby      
1 Mox Sapphire      
1 Sol Ring      
2 Island      
2 Swamp      
4 Polluted Delta      
1 Flooded Strand      
2 Underground Sea      
1 Tolarian Academy


Sideboard
3 Dark Confidant
1 Island
1 Swamp
1 Rebuild
1 Time Vault
1 Sadistic Sacrament
1 Voltaic Key
1 Echoing Truth
1 Darksteel Colossus
1 Massacre
1 Tinker
2 Yixlid Jailer

[liontruth]

Thank you for that information.  I think that I have it narrowed down to two choices.

Inkwell Leviathan: His shroud ability is universally recognized.  While not necessarily good against MUD he brings the pain to Tezzeret/Oath as well as Fish and Dredge.  All of these decks however have good ways of dealing with the Tinker/Robot making it a suboptimal play anyway.

Darksteel Colossus: While very susceptible to bounce and removal, he will be huge in matchups against MUD where you really need  your robot to make up for all the sphere/thorn/trinisphere.

I think I like the idea of pushing the robot into the sideboard.

Here is my deck list

Spells (36)     
1 Ancestral Recall     
1 Brainstorm     
2 Cabal Ritual     
1 Chain Of Vapor     
4 Dark Ritual     
4 Force Of Will     
1 Gifts Ungiven     
1 Misdirection   
1 Mystical Tutor     
1 Hurkyl's Recall     
1 Vampiric Tutor     
1 Necropotence     
1 Yawgmoth's Bargain     
1 Demonic Tutor     
2 Duress
2 Thoughtseize     
2 Grim Tutor     
1 Imperial Seal     
1 Mind's Desire     
1 Imperial Seal     
1 Tendrils Of Agony     
1 Time Walk     
1 Timetwister           
1 Yawgmoth's Will     
1 Merchant Scroll     
1 Memory Jar

Planeswalkers (1)
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor           
           
Manasources (23)           
1 Black Lotus     
1 Lotus Petal     
1 Mana Crypt     
1 Mana Vault     
1 Mox Emerald     
1 Mox Jet     
1 Mox Pearl     
1 Mox Ruby     
1 Mox Sapphire     
1 Sol Ring     
2 Island     
2 Swamp     
4 Polluted Delta     
1 Flooded Strand     
2 Underground Sea     
1 Tolarian Academy


Sideboard
3 Dark Confidant
1 Island
1 Swamp
1 Rebuild
1 Time Vault
1 Sadistic Sacrament
1 Voltaic Key
1 Echoing Truth
1 Darksteel Colossus
1 Massacre
1 Tinker
2 Yixlid Jailer

If youre putting tinker on the side might as well cut jar, or put tinker back on the main and cut a grim tutor, I think 2 grims and a seal is overkill.

And you should add 1 more Tendrils, and your MD is missing a card, the ponder slot maybe

[Tonmehr]

ok, I updated the list.  Another question I have is what do you think the average storm count for a lethal Tendrils in Vintage.  I like to think about 9 spells plus Tendrils for the lethal 20, but for the most part, in the games I have played this usually isn't true. 

On an aside, does anyone use Empty the Warrens as goofy sneak attack?

[i_set_fire]

ok, I updated the list.  Another question I have is what do you think the average storm count for a lethal Tendrils in Vintage.  I like to think about 9 spells plus Tendrils for the lethal 20, but for the most part, in the games I have played this usually isn't true. 

On an aside, does anyone use Empty the Warrens as goofy sneak attack?

By the time you storm out, it usually ends up right at the right number or ridiculously higher (my best is 44 on turn 2 with mana and resources to search and play another tendrils but opponent was already dead)

Generally not since then you have to splash red and win next turn. 

[Bill Copes]

ok, I updated the list.  Another question I have is what do you think the average storm count for a lethal Tendrils in Vintage.  I like to think about 9 spells plus Tendrils for the lethal 20, but for the most part, in the games I have played this usually isn't true. 

On an aside, does anyone use Empty the Warrens as goofy sneak attack?

By the time you storm out, it usually ends up right at the right number or ridiculously higher (my best is 44 on turn 2 with mana and resources to search and play another tendrils but opponent was already dead)

Bobby tendrils usually wins with a storm count of 6-8, depending on how many attack phases you've had before going off.

[i_set_fire]

ok, I updated the list.  Another question I have is what do you think the average storm count for a lethal Tendrils in Vintage.  I like to think about 9 spells plus Tendrils for the lethal 20, but for the most part, in the games I have played this usually isn't true. 

On an aside, does anyone use Empty the Warrens as goofy sneak attack?

By the time you storm out, it usually ends up right at the right number or ridiculously higher (my best is 44 on turn 2 with mana and resources to search and play another tendrils but opponent was already dead)

Bobby tendrils usually wins with a storm count of 6-8, depending on how many attack phases you've had before going off.

Agreed, but his list is a traditional TPS with board into bob tendrils. 

[Commandant]

So where does Gush put us? Does this do anything for us? I can't imagine it being that great vs. Shops.

[Tonmehr]

I have to say I am not that excited about Gush.  I don't think returning lands to your hand is very helpful in this type of deck especially since you probably plan on going off before this type of of casting is worthwhile.  Also against Shops I forsee this being absolutely terrible since you really need a solid land base in these matchups.