Ritual Based Combo in Today's Metagame

[Gandalf_The_White_1]

Since the subject of IT came up, the following seems relevant to the discussion of what direction current storm decks can take:

I just came up with the following list, which is not tuned or tested but basically illustrates what I think IT today would look like, with Arjan's suggestion of Bobs and 3x Hurkyls.  It's basically a hybrid of oldschool IT and newschool GWSx.

4 Force of Will
2 Thoughtseize
2 Duress
3 Hurkyl's Recal
1 Chain of Vapor

4 Dark Confidant
3 Intuition
2 Grim Tutor

1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Merchant Scroll
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Brainstorm
1 Time Walk
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Necropotence
1 Mind's Desire
1 Tendrils of Agony

5 Mox
1 Mana Crypt
1 Lotus Petal
1 Black Lotus
1 Sol Ring
4 Dark Ritual
2 Cabal Ritual

4 Polluted Delta
2 Bloodstained Mire
3 Underground Sea
2 Swamp
1 Island
1 Tolarian Academy (debatable, but good synergy with Desire and sometimes with Intuition)

Sb (will vary, but rough possible breakdown):
~5 Ichy Hate
2-3 Stax
2-3 Fish
2-3 Control
2-3 Combo

Other possible inclusions are Twister, Tinker/Jar, and Bargain, as well as Ponder.  The list is pretty tight however, so I decided to focus on the Intuition/Will combo and supporting it effectively.  Keep in mind that Intuition has other uses as well.  It can get you Bobs, Fows, Duresses, Grim/Grim/Dt or Cabal/Cabal/Lotus (with Threshold).

Of course, as I said in the other thread, this list looks OK on paper but I have not tested it.

[M.Solymossy]

I havent been following this thread very closely, but I'll just go ahead and leave this here

Bob Tendrils /GWSx 
Originally by Mike Solymossy
With further development by Mike Solymossy and Duncan Kreijzer
and then everyone else who FINALLY saw this deck was good (dot) dec
-------------------------------

/ Lands
    3 Underground Sea
    2 Swamp
    2 Island
    4 Polluted Delta
    2 Flooded Strand
    1 Bloodstained Mire

// Creatures
    4 Dark Confidant

// Spells
    4 Dark Ritual
    3 Cabal Ritual
    3 Tendrils of Agony
    1 Demonic Consultation
    1 Demonic Tutor
    1 Vampiric Tutor
    1 Mystical Tutor
    1 Brainstorm
    1 Ponder
    1 Mind's Desire
    1 Necropotence
    1 Yawgmoth's Will
    1 Ad Nauseam
    4 Duress
    1 Thoughtseize
    1 Hurkyl's Recall
    1 Rebuild
    1 Chain of Vapor
    1 Time Walk
    1 Ancestral Recall
    1 Timetwister
    1 Sensei's Divining Top
    1 Mox Emerald
    1 Mox Jet
    1 Mox Ruby
    1 Mox Pearl
    1 Mox Sapphire
    1 Black Lotus
    1 Sol Ring
    1 Mana Crypt
    1 Repeal
    1 Lotus Petal

// Sideboard
SB: 2 Chain of Vapor
SB: 2 Planar Void
SB: 1 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 2 Yixlid Jailer
SB: 3 Extirpate
SB: 2 Sadistic Sacrament
SB: 2 Infest
SB: 1 Claws of Gix

[Killane]

I havent been following this thread very closely, but I'll just go ahead and leave this here

Bob Tendrils /GWSx 
Originally by Mike Solymossy
With further development by Mike Solymossy and Duncan Kreijzer
and then everyone else who FINALLY saw this deck was good (dot) dec
-------------------------------

/ Lands
    3 Underground Sea
    2 Swamp
    2 Island
    4 Polluted Delta
    2 Flooded Strand
    1 Bloodstained Mire

// Creatures
    4 Dark Confidant

// Spells
    4 Dark Ritual
    3 Cabal Ritual
    3 Tendrils of Agony
    1 Demonic Consultation
    1 Demonic Tutor
    1 Vampiric Tutor
    1 Mystical Tutor
    1 Brainstorm
    1 Ponder
    1 Mind's Desire
    1 Necropotence
    1 Yawgmoth's Will
    1 Ad Nauseam
    4 Duress
    1 Thoughtseize
    1 Hurkyl's Recall
    1 Rebuild
    1 Chain of Vapor
    1 Time Walk
    1 Ancestral Recall
    1 Timetwister
    1 Sensei's Divining Top
    1 Mox Emerald
    1 Mox Jet
    1 Mox Ruby
    1 Mox Pearl
    1 Mox Sapphire
    1 Black Lotus
    1 Sol Ring
    1 Mana Crypt
    1 Repeal
    1 Lotus Petal

// Sideboard
SB: 2 Chain of Vapor
SB: 2 Planar Void
SB: 1 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 2 Yixlid Jailer
SB: 3 Extirpate
SB: 2 Sadistic Sacrament
SB: 2 Infest
SB: 1 Claws of Gix

I have run this maindeck within 2 cards several times now and was always fairly happy with it, however I really missed the potential explosiveness of Academy and the power of Bargain. what I missed most though, was FoW. I have not having access to that card in a Key-Vault world.

Mike, can you provide some commentary on the matchups for this deck. the resilliance of the deck is obvious, but how do find Oath, Storm mirrors (espeically fast Storm likeAd Naus), Tezz decks, and Permisson heavy Fish? how do find Dredge, given this build's lower level of speed compared to somethign like TPS or a Hybrid? Do you steal many game one's?

If you were to build a Storm deck for a meta in which you expected 33% MUD, 33% Dredge, and 33% U based timevault control (Oath and Tezz), what would you build and why? My take is that you would want somewhat of a GWSx/TPS Hybrid (which is what we were exploring at the begining of the article). the list with 2xRepeal above is what we arrived on based the discussion so far. what do you think?

[covetousrat]

This is the list I'm testing.

4 Pollluted delta
3 Underground sea
1 Bloodstained Mire
1 FLooded Strand
2 Island
2 Swamp
1 Tolarian Academy

4 Dark confidant

1 Yawgmoths bargain
1 Demonic TUtor
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Merchant Scroll
1 Yawgmoths Will
1 Timetwister
1 Grim Tutor
1 Necropotence
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Hurkyls recall
4 Fow
1 Brainstorm
1 Ponder
2 Intuition
3 Duress
1 Chain of vapor
1 GIfts Ungiven
1 Rebuild
1 Repeal

4 Dark Ritual
2 Cabal ritual
5 Moxen
1 Black Lotus
1 Mana crypt
1 SOl ring
1 Lotus Petal

SB
1 island
1 Hurkyls Recall
1 Sphinx
1 Tinker
4 Leyline
1 Tormods crypt
1 Pithing Needle
1 Slaughter Pact
1 Massacre/Infest
1 Yixlid Jailer
1 BOjuka Bog
1 Energy Flux

Minds Desire was not included in the list due to the high land count and confidants. Desire for 4-5 storm just doesnt work anymore. Intuition has been fantastic. Gifts serves as Intuition no 3. Intuition grabs 3 lands, 3 duress, 2Cabal + Lotus, or 3 tutors while filling up your graveyard. As the meta is being flooded by Stax and Fish, 3 Duress is enough. The best use is turn one to give you information for what your up against. The lone Repeal is to up the blue count to 17 which is minimum to run FOW. No mana vault as the tinker bot package is in the sideboard.

Dark confidant is just too awesome when he sticks against Stax and fish. Running 4 Dark confidant seems like sideboarded G1 against Stax. This deck isn't far form the hybrid Gwsx and Intuition tendrils posted. Tinker Jar just doesn't work anymore. Finally, I still feel that the loss of Brainstorm affects Intuition Tendrils overall goldfish. Intuition+Yawgmoth's will engine is still as strong as ever.

[Duncan]

Bob Tendrils /GWSx 
Originally by Mike Solymossy
With further development by Mike Solymossy and Duncan Kreijzer Keijzer

At least spell my name right! It's Dutch for Emperor, whoever knows what Solymossy means in any language may post here.

As for the IT/GWSx Hybrid Gandalf posted, it seems to run a lot of disruption with 12 spells, while losing some of the setup spells like Ponder and Top, that way I think it's lost some of it's resiliency.

As for your list Soly, I'd cut some Duress in favor of Thoughtseize, mostly for grabbing Lodestone Golem (other lock pieces give you enough time to build op a manabase, Golem does not). And I'd fit at least a second Hurkyl's Recall in there, likely in place of the 3rd Cabal Ritual.

[Gandalf_The_White_1]

As for the IT/GWSx Hybrid Gandalf posted, it seems to run a lot of disruption with 12 spells, while losing some of the setup spells like Ponder and Top, that way I think it's lost some of it's resiliency.

I like to run a lot of disruption, because I tend to mulligan aggressively into hands like disruption+bomb or disruption+Bob.  Search spells are good but can sometimes lead to difficult mulligan decisions where you bank on drawing a certain kind of card.  That said, I would have liked to have found room for Ponder, if not Top, which I find rather slow and ties up mana.  But one could easily go -1 Duress, -1 Hurkyl's/Chain; +1 Ponder, +1 Top.

[Tobi]

Just won a tournament this weekend with this list:

4 Force of Will
1 Brainstorm
3 Tendrils of Agony
1 Necropotence
1 Yawgmoth's Bargain
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Gifts Ungiven
1 Demonic Consultation
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Timetwister
1 Mind's Desire
1 Time Walk
1 Memory Jar
1 Tinker
1 Ponder
4 Dark Confidant
1 Rebuild
1 Chain of Vapor
1 Hurkyl's Recall
2 Repeal
4 Dark Ritual
2 Cabal Ritual
1 Black Lotus
1 Lotus Petal
1 Mana Vault
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Tolarian Academy
1 Sol Ring
4 Polluted Delta
1 Flooded Strand
2 Underground Sea
2 Swamp
2 Island
60

Sideboard:
1 Inkwell Leviathan
1 Duress
1 Thoughtseize
3 Ravenous Trap
2 Hurkyl's Recall
3 Energy Flux
3 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
15

Played against:

1st round
Remora - loss 0:2

2nd round
Tezz - ID

3rd round
UW Landstill - win 2:1 (in fact opponent scooped)

4th round
Noble Fish - win 2:0

5th round
RGW Hate - win 2:1

1/4
Dredge - win 2:0

1/2
Oath - win 2:0

finals
MUD - win 2:1 (after loosing the die roll!) 

More detailed report coming up.

[tedv]

Has anyone tested the Time Vault / Voltaic Key combo in TPS?

I was initially attracted to TPS combo decks because the card quality is so high.  To quote Mike Flores, "The best decks play the best cards," and one of the best two card combos in Vintage right now is Time Vault + Key.  Given the number and quality of Tutors in TPS, it seems like drawing any pair of these cards can be converted to a win in many situations:

Demonic Tutor
Vampiric Tutor
Imperial Seal
Mystical Tutor
Merchant Scroll
Tinker
Gifts Ungiven (for 3 tutors + Ancestral)
Time Vault
Voltaic Key

That's any pair of 9 cards-- more if you're running Grim Tutor(s).

I particularly liked this diagram in smmenen's article on playing TPS: http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/vintage/16330_So_Many_Insane_Plays_Winning_With_TPS.html  The point being that there are many engines in the deck which all feed into Yawgmoth's Will and eventually Tendrils.  On the surface, adding another game winning engine seems good, because it diversifies the kind of attacks the opponent must react to.  It's also nice having a win condition that works with a low storm count, and it can win games in do-or-die situations where Tinkering for Sphinx is a turn too slow.

But I recognize that diversity comes with a price.  You can't strengthen one engine without weakening another, and drawing just a Time Vault or just a Voltaic Key in isolation will always be worse than whatever card would alternatively be in that slot.  Time Vault is as much a dead draw as Sphinx.  Voltaic Key is another Sol Ring if you've drawn Mana Vault.  If only have Mana Crypt or Sol Ring, then the Key is an off color mox.  And other than that, it's a dead draw too.  I suppose it can wash your black mana into blue if you have a Mox Sapphire out, but that's not really a selling point.

I'm not familiar enough with the deck to suggest what two cards to cut to test this out.  I don't think there's room in any build running Dark Confidant.  For those without him, perhaps cut a land down to 13 and a Cabal Ritual?  Something like this:


1 Flooded Strand
3 Island
4 Polluted Delta
2 Swamp
1 Tolarian Academy
2 Underground Sea
1 Black Lotus
1 Lotus Petal
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mana Vault
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Sol Ring
1 Voltaic Key
4 Dark Ritual

1 Time Vault
1 Memory Jar
4 Duress
1 Necropotence
1 Yawgmoth's Bargain
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Imperial Seal

1 Ancestral Recall
1 Brainstorm
1 Ponder
1 Merchant Scroll
1 Fact or Fiction
1 Gifts Ungiven
4 Force of Will
1 Mind's Desire
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Chain of Vapor
2 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Time Walk
1 Timetwister
1 Tinker
1 Sphinx of the Steel Wind

[M.Solymossy]

I still don't get why people feel they need to pollute my precious bob tendrils deck with garbage like force of will.   It's really NOT needed... it's just players being cowards who feel that every deck they ever play ever needs to every time always have every force of will ever, every time.

[Tobi]

I still don't get why people feel they need to pollute my precious bob tendrils deck with garbage like force of will.   It's really NOT needed... it's just players being cowards who feel that every deck they ever play ever needs to every time always have every force of will ever, every time.

In fact, I polluted my precious Horden Tendrils list with Bobs and a lot of basic lands.

[Marske]

I would like to remind everybody that E-peens are not important. What a deck is called and who invented what isn't something that should be discussed. C'mon guys, keep it on track.  Marske

[Tobi]

I would like to remind everybody that E-peens are not important. What a deck is called and who invented what isn't something that should be discussed. C'mon guys, keep it on track.  Marske

Alright then. I didn't feel it was really necessary to respond to the fact the Force of Will is nothing near to "garbage" in a Tendrils list. I didn't intend to start a discussion on who invented anything. In fact it is an ongoing development that is influenced by a lot of people.

It is certainly debatable wether Force of Will is necessary or not, or if Duresses are better or worse than Forces. However I do not understand how playing 4 Force of Will in a deck with 4 Bobs does have anything to do with being a "coward". It should be the exact opposite 

[M.Solymossy]

Tobi:  you and Duncan and I, more than anyone else, should know that running force of will can actually hurt you in some matchups.  You know that, if played correctly, you shoud very rarely lose to a force of will deck, and sometimes, throwing your forces into their drains can lose you the game.   I am 100% comfortable without force of will in my deck.  It actually makes draw7s and desire kill people, instead of whiffing half the time.

[Tobi]

Forces don't hurt your Desire. The 3Tendrils lists GWSx and Horden Tendrils and similar ones run 5 disruption spells usually (my latest list only 4). If those are Duress or Force doesn't matter to Desire. Ok, you may have a storm spell more if you flip Duress instead of Force, but that shouldn't matter much when playing a medium Desire.

Playing Forces instead of Duresses is a different playstyle, and lets you interact differently with your opponent. You have more options when on the draw, and your opponent cannot go all in without being in danger of running into a Force. On the other hand, Duresses are less vulnerable to Drains as you already mentioned, and you get to know your opponent's hand while disrupting.
I cannot tell which is the better choice, to be honest.

The only thing that I don't like about Forces is the need for many blue cards in my deck. Apart of that, I favor Forces, but that's just me.
Flipping the Forces to Confidants is something I am not really afraid of in a deck with 3 Tendrils.

[Rico Suave]

Soly, I don't know why you feel the deck is better without Force.  I played Bob Tendrils this past weekend and very much enjoyed Force of Will and what it did for the deck.  Could you elaborate on exactly why you feel this way?

[personalbackfire]

Tobi:  you and Duncan and I, more than anyone else, should know that running force of will can actually hurt you in some matchups.  You know that, if played correctly, you shoud very rarely lose to a force of will deck, and sometimes, throwing your forces into their drains can lose you the game.   I am 100% comfortable without force of will in my deck.  It actually makes draw7s and desire kill people, instead of whiffing half the time.

Soly the Forces aren't in the deck for the Drain matchup, they are in it for the Shop matchup, and to a lesser extent the fish matchup, both where Duress is terrible.

[Twaun007]

Tobi:  you and Duncan and I, more than anyone else, should know that running force of will can actually hurt you in some matchups.  You know that, if played correctly, you shoud very rarely lose to a force of will deck, and sometimes, throwing your forces into their drains can lose you the game.   I am 100% comfortable without force of will in my deck.  It actually makes draw7s and desire kill people, instead of whiffing half the time.

Soly the Forces aren't in the deck for the Drain matchup, they are in it for the Shop matchup, and to a lesser extent the fish matchup, both where Duress is terrible.

I have to agree with personalbackfire on this one.

For instance, at the Meandeck Open I was playing vs Rich Shay and in game three I kept a hand that relied heavily upon Goblin Welder. My welder got forced turn one and I was never able to get back into the game.

Also, outside of a quick Lodestone Golem TPS decks that don't run Force of Will can get severely crippled by Chalice of the Void set at one even if they are loaded up on Duress and Thoughtseize. You have to admit that CotV @1 and Null Rod is quite the beating if you're unable to find your mass bounce spells.

[gdtpara]

@Tobi : How good was the strip/waste side plan ?

[ArtOvWar]

Has anyone tested the Time Vault / Voltaic Key combo in TPS?

I was initially attracted to TPS combo decks because the card quality is so high.  To quote Mike Flores, "The best decks play the best cards," and one of the best two card combos in Vintage right now is Time Vault + Key.  Given the number and quality of Tutors in TPS, it seems like drawing any pair of these cards can be converted to a win in many situations:

Demonic Tutor
Vampiric Tutor
Imperial Seal
Mystical Tutor
Merchant Scroll
Tinker
Gifts Ungiven (for 3 tutors + Ancestral)
Time Vault
Voltaic Key

That's any pair of 9 cards-- more if you're running Grim Tutor(s).

I particularly liked this diagram in smmenen's article on playing TPS: http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/vintage/16330_So_Many_Insane_Plays_Winning_With_TPS.html  The point being that there are many engines in the deck which all feed into Yawgmoth's Will and eventually Tendrils.  On the surface, adding another game winning engine seems good, because it diversifies the kind of attacks the opponent must react to.  It's also nice having a win condition that works with a low storm count, and it can win games in do-or-die situations where Tinkering for Sphinx is a turn too slow.

But I recognize that diversity comes with a price.  You can't strengthen one engine without weakening another, and drawing just a Time Vault or just a Voltaic Key in isolation will always be worse than whatever card would alternatively be in that slot.  Time Vault is as much a dead draw as Sphinx.  Voltaic Key is another Sol Ring if you've drawn Mana Vault.  If only have Mana Crypt or Sol Ring, then the Key is an off color mox.  And other than that, it's a dead draw too.  I suppose it can wash your black mana into blue if you have a Mox Sapphire out, but that's not really a selling point.

I'm not familiar enough with the deck to suggest what two cards to cut to test this out.  I don't think there's room in any build running Dark Confidant.  For those without him, perhaps cut a land down to 13 and a Cabal Ritual?  Something like this:


1 Flooded Strand
3 Island
4 Polluted Delta
2 Swamp
1 Tolarian Academy
2 Underground Sea
1 Black Lotus
1 Lotus Petal
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mana Vault
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Sol Ring
1 Voltaic Key
4 Dark Ritual

1 Time Vault
1 Memory Jar
4 Duress
1 Necropotence
1 Yawgmoth's Bargain
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Imperial Seal

1 Ancestral Recall
1 Brainstorm
1 Ponder
1 Merchant Scroll
1 Fact or Fiction
1 Gifts Ungiven
4 Force of Will
1 Mind's Desire
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Chain of Vapor
2 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Time Walk
1 Timetwister
1 Tinker
1 Sphinx of the Steel Wind

Why the hell would you run TV/Key in a stormcombo deck. In a meta full of Null Rods you got dead cards MB. Also it are dead cards in TPS when you draw one of them. The main plan of TPS is going for 9 spells+Tendrills or DSC beats. New lists run a Jace 2.0 instead of Fact or Fiction. That makes three killcons. Since Jace 2.0 is a 4 mana solution for topdeck stuff, creature's and it fixes your hand.
And as last thing:  DSC --> Sphinx. DSC is a 2 turn clock. Sphinx is a 4 turn clock.

[Killane]

Has anyone tested the Time Vault / Voltaic Key combo in TPS?

I was initially attracted to TPS combo decks because the card quality is so high.  To quote Mike Flores, "The best decks play the best cards," and one of the best two card combos in Vintage right now is Time Vault + Key.  Given the number and quality of Tutors in TPS, it seems like drawing any pair of these cards can be converted to a win in many situations:

Demonic Tutor
Vampiric Tutor
Imperial Seal
Mystical Tutor
Merchant Scroll
Tinker
Gifts Ungiven (for 3 tutors + Ancestral)
Time Vault
Voltaic Key

That's any pair of 9 cards-- more if you're running Grim Tutor(s).

I particularly liked this diagram in smmenen's article on playing TPS: http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/vintage/16330_So_Many_Insane_Plays_Winning_With_TPS.html  The point being that there are many engines in the deck which all feed into Yawgmoth's Will and eventually Tendrils.  On the surface, adding another game winning engine seems good, because it diversifies the kind of attacks the opponent must react to.  It's also nice having a win condition that works with a low storm count, and it can win games in do-or-die situations where Tinkering for Sphinx is a turn too slow.

But I recognize that diversity comes with a price.  You can't strengthen one engine without weakening another, and drawing just a Time Vault or just a Voltaic Key in isolation will always be worse than whatever card would alternatively be in that slot.  Time Vault is as much a dead draw as Sphinx.  Voltaic Key is another Sol Ring if you've drawn Mana Vault.  If only have Mana Crypt or Sol Ring, then the Key is an off color mox.  And other than that, it's a dead draw too.  I suppose it can wash your black mana into blue if you have a Mox Sapphire out, but that's not really a selling point.

I'm not familiar enough with the deck to suggest what two cards to cut to test this out.  I don't think there's room in any build running Dark Confidant.  For those without him, perhaps cut a land down to 13 and a Cabal Ritual?  Something like this:


1 Flooded Strand
3 Island
4 Polluted Delta
2 Swamp
1 Tolarian Academy
2 Underground Sea
1 Black Lotus
1 Lotus Petal
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mana Vault
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Sol Ring
1 Voltaic Key
4 Dark Ritual

1 Time Vault
1 Memory Jar
4 Duress
1 Necropotence
1 Yawgmoth's Bargain
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Imperial Seal

1 Ancestral Recall
1 Brainstorm
1 Ponder
1 Merchant Scroll
1 Fact or Fiction
1 Gifts Ungiven
4 Force of Will
1 Mind's Desire
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Chain of Vapor
2 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Time Walk
1 Timetwister
1 Tinker
1 Sphinx of the Steel Wind

Why the hell would you run TV/Key in a stormcombo deck. In a meta full of Null Rods you got dead cards MB. Also it are dead cards in TPS when you draw one of them. The main plan of TPS is going for 9 spells+Tendrills or DSC beats. New lists run a Jace 2.0 instead of Fact or Fiction. That makes three killcons. Since Jace 2.0 is a 4 mana solution for topdeck stuff, creature's and it fixes your hand.
And as last thing:  DSC --> Sphinx. DSC is a 2 turn clock. Sphinx is a 4 turn clock.

DSC, Sphinx, and Inkwell are all the "best" choice in certain metagames. While DSC is a 2 turn clock, playing it in a meta wherein every shop deck runs 4xWelder and every Fish deck runs 4xStpS is not the best choice. Sphinx cannot be raced by Noble Fish, whereas DSC can depending on the game state.  Inky is better ves remval but is the worst racer of all 3, despite being a slightly faster clock than Sphinx. Any of the 3 can be a valid choice depending on what you expect to face.

In a diverse metagame, DSC is likely correct. non- exile removal does nothing to it and it's the best clock. But if you know you're going to be sitting across from BR or R Shops with 4xWelder all day long, I'd go with Sphinx. the Lifelink can help you if you get beaten low, it blocks and kills Golems and 'naught's all day long, and it can't be welded out.

I'm not a fan of Inky anymore, although if you really expect to see a shitton of StpS and similar removal then it's quite a beating vs any deck that runs U a decent vs the rest of the field. It's also good vs shops since it can't be welded, hit with Duplicant, or copied with Shaping Steel. The issue is if they are running Karn they can just block him all day long or they can race him with 2xGolem. vs Tezz he's not really immune to thier removal since they tend to use Hurkyl's to deal with bots, and he's slower than DSC and dosn't help you recover from Necro use or Bob beats like Sphinx. Vs Dredge he's too slow to be useful -  you want DSC since he's immune to Claim andthe fastest.

Overall I think you're right that DSC is the best choice for an unknown meta, but there are times you want Sphinx, and some (though fewer) that you want Inky.

hopefully in the near future (Scars) we'll get a 10/x trample shroud robot with a cool ability. Then we can set the whole debate to rest. soemthing like this:

Ultimate TPS Robot
Artifact - 12

Trample, Shroud
when <this> ETB, Vindicate.

10/10

[Lemnear]

Yeah why run Time-key in a deck ful of tutors ....  

THe Sphinx/DSC topic:

1. Sphinx is easier hardcastable than DSC
2. It' pitchable to FoW
3. Attacking Sphinx creates a life stat difference of 12 (damage and lifelink); DSC 11 (damage only)
4. Sphinx win matches DSC could not (facing multiple creatures 4 example) gaining life by attacking AND blocking is unbeatable in certain matchups

the1 turn more (fetchlands, Fow, vamp. tutor, etc. will help you too) is not much unless opponent rips time key off the top

[Killane]

Yeah why run Time-key in a deck ful of tutors ....  

THe Sphinx/DSC topic:

1. Sphinx is easier hardcastable than DSC
2. It' pitchable to FoW
3. Attacking Sphinx creates a life stat difference of 12 (damage and lifelink); DSC 11 (damage only)
4. Sphinx win matches DSC could not (facing multiple creatures 4 example) gaining life by attacking AND blocking is unbeatable in certain matchups

the1 turn more (fetchlands, Fow, vamp. tutor, etc. will help you too) is not much unless opponent rips time key off the top

Regarding key-vault:

You could not be more wrong. You could try, but you would not suceed.

 Key-Vault is NOT good in TPS. The deck is essentially a giant pile of synergy and that's why it works well. Key and Vault are 100% dead on thier own, you have to waste 2 tutors or have a really good Gift's to get the combo, and it dies to countermagic, the 8,000,000 pieces of artifact removal that people are running these days, and Null Rod. You only have 4 counterspells to protect it (plus duresses that you really don;t want to waste on taking garbage like Nature's Claim), unlike a Tezz deck that has forces, spell pierce and drains or an Oath deck that has Iona locking them out of thier artifact removal and also have spell pierce and forces and (rarely) drains. Why open yourself up to caring about 10-15 cards in the opponents deck that just.don't.matter. to you if you are not running key-vault?

Regarding DSC/Sphinx:

1. Sphinx is much harder to hardcast than DSC. It requires white, for which you have only 3 sources in the enitre deck, and you really don;t want to waste Lotus on casting a Sphinx. It costs 8 vs 11- that's a difference of 3 mana. what can bridge this gap? Ritual x 6-7, Lotus, mana Vault, Sol ring, ManaCrypt. Sphinx is much much harder to cast than DSC.
2. True, but no way too about picking a robot.
3. Unless you have Necropotence out or are racing a Fish or Shop deck, this does not matter. Sphinx can only race a DSC if you attack first (You swing them to 14 you to 26, they swing you to 15, you swing them to 8 you to 21, they swing you to 10, you swing them to 2 you to 16, they swing you to 5 you kill them. the other way around they swing you to 9 you swing them to 14 you to 15, they swing you to 4 you swing them to 8 you to 10, they kill you). Note they coudl have easlly killed you with a Tendrils at Storm 3 before you kill them when you attack first or even a mere Storm 5 a turn earlier.
4. True, but the same can be said of DSC, just with different situations. It cuts your Dredge opponent off 2 turns earlier, gives Tezz 2 less turns to find key-Vault, can't be raced by Oath creatures, gives your Tendrils opponent less life to use on Necro and Bargain and 2 fewer turns to "sculpt" the wining hand, and one hit from DSC makes Ad Nauseum a very risky move in a way that a hit from Sphinx does not. Vs shops and fish it gives them less time to dig for an answer since neither deck runs a pleathora of tutor effects this can be highly relevant.

It''s 2 turns more, not 1. SotsW swings for 18 in 3 turns and 24 in 4 turns. Yes, there may be situations in which your opponent deals the lest 2 pts to themself, but you cannot rely on those situations to count your clock. DSC can even be chumped with 2 Bobs or a Pridgemage and kill in 2 turns, swinging for 22 dmg. if SotSW is chumped (yes I know there are not many flying blockers around these days, except Narcomoeba.), it sets you back an entire turn. Cumping DSC with Narcomoeba is pointless.

[tedv]

You could not be more wrong. You could try, but you would not suceed.

 Key-Vault is NOT good in TPS. The deck is essentially a giant pile of synergy and that's why it works well. Key and Vault are 100% dead on thier own, you have to waste 2 tutors or have a really good Gift's to get the combo, and it dies to countermagic, the 8,000,000 pieces of artifact removal that people are running these days, and Null Rod. You only have 4 counterspells to protect it (plus duresses that you really don;t want to waste on taking garbage like Nature's Claim), unlike a Tezz deck that has forces, spell pierce and drains or an Oath deck that has Iona locking them out of thier artifact removal and also have spell pierce and forces and (rarely) drains. Why open yourself up to caring about 10-15 cards in the opponents deck that just.don't.matter. to you if you are not running key-vault?

I appreciate your feedback, despite the hyperbole.  Your argument is that including Vault + Key makes you vulnerable to anti-artifact cards, when this deck already has issues with Null Rod.  You argue that including the combo reduces the deck's consistency but doesn't actually add diversity because Null Rod still attacks both game plans.

For the record, it would never cost 2 tutors.  It only costs 1, because you'd only use a tutor if you drew half of the combo.  This isn't a Tez deck where plan A is to get Vault + Key into play.  If you don't draw either card, it's no different from not drawing a Brainstorm or a Ponder.  You would never tutor for Ponder.

I think your argument is compelling, but it's still just theory.  For reference, here was my original question:

Has anyone tested the Time Vault / Voltaic Key combo in TPS?

I'm still curious if anyone has actual experience including Time Vault in the deck and seeing how it changed match ups.  Theory can't substitute for the results from actual testing.

[Tobi]

@Tobi : How good was the strip/waste side plan ?

Here is my report:
http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=40710.0

The Wastes/Strip were great in both matchups I used them. Both time they won me the match.

[Lemnear]

Regarding key-vault:

You could not be more wrong. You could try, but you would not suceed.

 Key-Vault is NOT good in TPS. The deck is essentially a giant pile of synergy and that's why it works well. Key and Vault are 100% dead on thier own, you have to waste 2 tutors or have a really good Gift's to get the combo, and it dies to countermagic, the 8,000,000 pieces of artifact removal that people are running these days, and Null Rod. You only have 4 counterspells to protect it (plus duresses that you really don;t want to waste on taking garbage like Nature's Claim), unlike a Tezz deck that has forces, spell pierce and drains or an Oath deck that has Iona locking them out of thier artifact removal and also have spell pierce and forces and (rarely) drains. Why open yourself up to caring about 10-15 cards in the opponents deck that just.don't.matter. to you if you are not running key-vault?

Wow! Just Wow! So I'm kinda jackass because I consider to play a stupid 2-card-I-win-combo. No let's dismiss it because it could get countered! Oh my! Why we are still play Jar in a world of Null Rod ... and Bargain in a spell pierced TPS-hell?

Regarding DSC/Sphinx:

1. Sphinx is much harder to hardcast than DSC. It requires white, for which you have only 3 sources in the enitre deck, and you really don;t want to waste Lotus on casting a Sphinx. It costs 8 vs 11- that's a difference of 3 mana. what can bridge this gap? Ritual x 6-7, Lotus, mana Vault, Sol ring, ManaCrypt. Sphinx is much much harder to cast than DSC.
2. True, but no way too about picking a robot.
3. Unless you have Necropotence out or are racing a Fish or Shop deck, this does not matter. Sphinx can only race a DSC if you attack first (You swing them to 14 you to 26, they swing you to 15, you swing them to 8 you to 21, they swing you to 10, you swing them to 2 you to 16, they swing you to 5 you kill them. the other way around they swing you to 9 you swing them to 14 you to 15, they swing you to 4 you swing them to 8 you to 10, they kill you). Note they coudl have easlly killed you with a Tendrils at Storm 3 before you kill them when you attack first or even a mere Storm 5 a turn earlier.
4. True, but the same can be said of DSC, just with different situations. It cuts your Dredge opponent off 2 turns earlier, gives Tezz 2 less turns to find key-Vault, can't be raced by Oath creatures, gives your Tendrils opponent less life to use on Necro and Bargain and 2 fewer turns to "sculpt" the wining hand, and one hit from DSC makes Ad Nauseum a very risky move in a way that a hit from Sphinx does not. Vs shops and fish it gives them less time to dig for an answer since neither deck runs a pleathora of tutor effects this can be highly relevant.

It''s 2 turns more, not 1. SotsW swings for 18 in 3 turns and 24 in 4 turns. Yes, there may be situations in which your opponent deals the lest 2 pts to themself, but you cannot rely on those situations to count your clock. DSC can even be chumped with 2 Bobs or a Pridgemage and kill in 2 turns, swinging for 22 dmg. if SotSW is chumped (yes I know there are not many flying blockers around these days, except Narcomoeba.), it sets you back an entire turn. Cumping DSC with Narcomoeba is pointless.

No, seriously ... tedv is right: You won't tutor both pieces but if you draw one of it why not play I.Seal for the missing one? Brainless and cheap in mana even under spheres. Your resonse on my 4th point is pretty funny too, especially the mentioned TPS and ANT matchups. Swing for 11 damage against TPS won't matter unless they need Bargain or Necro. Gaining 6 life makes it harder to tendrills me away no matter how they play. Same is ture for ANT.
A chumpblocking goofy makes DSC a turn 3 clock, too. I guess you're with me that talking about being blocked or not makes little sense anyway

@Tobi: Danke für den Link!

[Killane]

You could not be more wrong. You could try, but you would not suceed.

 Key-Vault is NOT good in TPS. The deck is essentially a giant pile of synergy and that's why it works well. Key and Vault are 100% dead on thier own, you have to waste 2 tutors or have a really good Gift's to get the combo, and it dies to countermagic, the 8,000,000 pieces of artifact removal that people are running these days, and Null Rod. You only have 4 counterspells to protect it (plus duresses that you really don;t want to waste on taking garbage like Nature's Claim), unlike a Tezz deck that has forces, spell pierce and drains or an Oath deck that has Iona locking them out of thier artifact removal and also have spell pierce and forces and (rarely) drains. Why open yourself up to caring about 10-15 cards in the opponents deck that just.don't.matter. to you if you are not running key-vault?

I appreciate your feedback, despite the hyperbole.  Your argument is that including Vault + Key makes you vulnerable to anti-artifact cards, when this deck already has issues with Null Rod.  You argue that including the combo reduces the deck's consistency but doesn't actually add diversity because Null Rod still attacks both game plans.

For the record, it would never cost 2 tutors.  It only costs 1, because you'd only use a tutor if you drew half of the combo.  This isn't a Tez deck where plan A is to get Vault + Key into play.  If you don't draw either card, it's no different from not drawing a Brainstorm or a Ponder.  You would never tutor for Ponder.

I think your argument is compelling, but it's still just theory.  For reference, here was my original question:

Has anyone tested the Time Vault / Voltaic Key combo in TPS?

I'm still curious if anyone has actual experience including Time Vault in the deck and seeing how it changed match ups.  Theory can't substitute for the results from actual testing.

I have been playing TPS for quite a while and won 7 tournaments with it. I have tested Key-Vault in several storm builds - it sucks in TPS and GWSx, and the Storm-Vault build's I've tried haven't been great either.

Null rod is tough to deal with vs Shops becuase it makes it that much harder to develop your mana. Null Rod is far from the worst card to see vs Fish. remember than at play of Ritual Ritual DT Will Ritual Ritual DT Tendrils with 1 duress and 1 dead mox cast somewhere in their still deals 20 and kills them. I've never had a world of pain playing through Rod unless it's been backed up by resistors. is rod frustrating? yes vry, but I woudl not go so far as to say you have real issues with is.

null Rod isn;t the only issue though. TPS doesn't care much about Claim or Pridemage without Key-Vault. Pithing Needle is not great vs TPS uless you include Key-Vault. and what do you cut for it? anything you do is likely to be:

1. a blue card like ponder or Fact/Jace.
a. TPS builds already skirt the line of running an acceptable number of U cards to pitch to FoW.
b. Every U card in the deck (except FoW) has synergy with the primary plan of Tendrils to the Face. key and vault do not

2. an artifact. whcih will be either:
a. your Tinker Robot. None of the 3 common targets care about Null Rod, Natre's Claim, or Quasali Pridemage. Key-Vault cares about all 3, plus if you tinker into one of them you have a useless card on the board until you get the other one out. clearly not a valid choice.
b. Memory Jar. one of your best draw 7's. not soemthing you want to cut from TPS.
c. acceleration. Obviously not given Tendrils as a plan A.

3. a Black card.  All of the black cards in TPS are either acceleration, bombs, your best tutors, or duress.
1. Acceleration. No.
2. Bombs (YawgWin, Necopotence, Bargain). really no. these cards are among the primary reasons to play TPS in the first place.
3. tutors. really not. tutors are the whole reason you wanted to run Key-Vault in the first place
4. Duress. Of anything, this card is the most replaceable, and in act I don;t run it maindeck currently. However, the reason it is replaceable is that it's not great vs fish and it downright sucks vs Shops. These are the two decks that Key-Vault faces the greatest amount of hate from.

At the end of the day i've tried to make Key-Vault work in Storm quite a few times. Every time I've drawn it, unless I've drawn both cards along with lotus and a land turn 1, I;ve wished it was soemthing else. In fact, One game 2 I drew the following hand:

Key
Vault
Delta
Lotus
Jet
Duress
Demonic Tutor

I lost that game thanks to my opponent playing Pithing Needle (Vault) turn 1. Had Either card been a Ritual instead, I woudl have gone land- duress - jet- lotus- ritual, DT for will- lotus - ritual - Dt for Tendrils- Tendrils for 10. Draw spells woudl have dug towards a ritual, etc... there's really not much that would not have been better in that hand than  Key-Vault. Extreme example, but illustrating the point.

Anyways the point is i responded with theory becuasei'm not of fan of ust saying- yes- i tested it- it sucks.

and sorry for the hyperbole. I'm at work and a bit punchy today.

[Killane]

Regarding key-vault:

You could not be more wrong. You could try, but you would not suceed.

 Key-Vault is NOT good in TPS. The deck is essentially a giant pile of synergy and that's why it works well. Key and Vault are 100% dead on thier own, you have to waste 2 tutors or have a really good Gift's to get the combo, and it dies to countermagic, the 8,000,000 pieces of artifact removal that people are running these days, and Null Rod. You only have 4 counterspells to protect it (plus duresses that you really don;t want to waste on taking garbage like Nature's Claim), unlike a Tezz deck that has forces, spell pierce and drains or an Oath deck that has Iona locking them out of thier artifact removal and also have spell pierce and forces and (rarely) drains. Why open yourself up to caring about 10-15 cards in the opponents deck that just.don't.matter. to you if you are not running key-vault?

Wow! Just Wow! So I'm kinda jackass because I consider to play a stupid 2-card-I-win-combo. No let's dismiss it because it could get countered! Oh my! Why we are still play Jar in a world of Null Rod ... and Bargain in a spell pierced TPS-hell?

Regarding DSC/Sphinx:

1. Sphinx is much harder to hardcast than DSC. It requires white, for which you have only 3 sources in the enitre deck, and you really don;t want to waste Lotus on casting a Sphinx. It costs 8 vs 11- that's a difference of 3 mana. what can bridge this gap? Ritual x 6-7, Lotus, mana Vault, Sol ring, ManaCrypt. Sphinx is much much harder to cast than DSC.
2. True, but no way too about picking a robot.
3. Unless you have Necropotence out or are racing a Fish or Shop deck, this does not matter. Sphinx can only race a DSC if you attack first (You swing them to 14 you to 26, they swing you to 15, you swing them to 8 you to 21, they swing you to 10, you swing them to 2 you to 16, they swing you to 5 you kill them. the other way around they swing you to 9 you swing them to 14 you to 15, they swing you to 4 you swing them to 8 you to 10, they kill you). Note they coudl have easlly killed you with a Tendrils at Storm 3 before you kill them when you attack first or even a mere Storm 5 a turn earlier.
4. True, but the same can be said of DSC, just with different situations. It cuts your Dredge opponent off 2 turns earlier, gives Tezz 2 less turns to find key-Vault, can't be raced by Oath creatures, gives your Tendrils opponent less life to use on Necro and Bargain and 2 fewer turns to "sculpt" the wining hand, and one hit from DSC makes Ad Nauseum a very risky move in a way that a hit from Sphinx does not. Vs shops and fish it gives them less time to dig for an answer since neither deck runs a pleathora of tutor effects this can be highly relevant.

It''s 2 turns more, not 1. SotsW swings for 18 in 3 turns and 24 in 4 turns. Yes, there may be situations in which your opponent deals the lest 2 pts to themself, but you cannot rely on those situations to count your clock. DSC can even be chumped with 2 Bobs or a Pridgemage and kill in 2 turns, swinging for 22 dmg. if SotSW is chumped (yes I know there are not many flying blockers around these days, except Narcomoeba.), it sets you back an entire turn. Cumping DSC with Narcomoeba is pointless.

No, seriously ... tedv is right: You won't tutor both pieces but if you draw one of it why not play I.Seal for the missing one? Brainless and cheap in mana even under spheres. Your resonse on my 4th point is pretty funny too, especially the mentioned TPS and ANT matchups. Swing for 11 damage against TPS won't matter unless they need Bargain or Necro. Gaining 6 life makes it harder to tendrills me away no matter how they play. Same is ture for ANT.
A chumpblocking goofy makes DSC a turn 3 clock, too. I guess you're with me that talking about being blocked or not makes little sense anyway

@Tobi: Danke für den Link!

Ok. first off sorry for the jackass opening remark.

second - see my post above re:key-vault.

third - apart form most turn 1 and turn 2 kills, I've never had an issue accumulating 13, 15, or even 18 Storm except vs Shops. the life gain is much less relevant that keeping their best engines from working well in the Storm mirror. Particularly vs Ad Nauseum, big Storm isn't hard for them unless they can't pay enough life to draw the cards to kill you.

[tedv]

I agree that Vault + Key is downright terrible against fish, and if fish is a lot of your local metagame, you shouldn't bother with it.  What about as a sideboard option against some of the other decks like Tez and Oath?

I'm a bit confused about the game you mentioned with Pithing Needle though.  Why would the opponent side in a Needle against TPS and then name Time Vault, since vault is just a sideline to TPS?  Clearly it worked in that game, but it seems like a pretty large gamble.  How did he even know that you kept Vault + Key for the second game?  It might be that Time Vault works better in the deck if you play the combo as an accidental "oops, I just won" and not a deck focus.  That makes it much harder to sideboard against.  No one will board in naturalize variants just to deal with one Time Vault that you're not actively trying to put into play.

You make a good point about the lack of things to cut in the deck, something I hinted at earlier.  Under no circumstances would I cut the giant robot, since removing it makes Tinker much worse in general.  My best guess was cutting a top-heavy blue card like Fact or Fiction, but as you note, this makes Force of Will worse.  This is another reason I prefer DSC in the Giant Robot slot, bu the way-- you can pitch him to Force of Will.

Anyway, at this point I suspect you are correct that including Vault + Key is a net negative for most metagames, but I still might try it out and see exactly why.  If nothing else, it will give me new appreciation for the cards I cut.

[Killane]

I won game 1 with tinker after he took Vault with duress, as I recall. i imagine he thought I was on Tezz, not TPS.

[Gandalf_The_White_1]

I'm not a fan of Inky anymore, although if you really expect to see a shitton of StpS and similar removal then it's quite a beating vs any deck that runs U a decent vs the rest of the field. It's also good vs shops since it can't be welded, hit with Duplicant, or copied with Shaping Steel.

Inkwell can be copied with Sculpting Steel, because the latter says "choose an artifact in play" rather than targeting.