Ritual Based Combo in Today's Metagame

[MagicMan]

An explanation - I have a Tarn over Academy because it helps fetch basics against MUD and it is better with Preordain.

Ive also thought about this and I swing back and forth, but as of right now I feel like Tolarian is TOOOOOO good for me to ditch cause it helps power out minds desire, rebuild and hurk under spheres and makes your moxs worth something under null rod.  My 2 cents anyway.

[failtofind]

i Didn't run Gush in my top 4 deck.

[mmcgeach]

i Didn't run Gush in my top 4 deck.

i was going by http://www.pastimes.net/news/2010/aug/11/vintage-championships-top-8-and-decklists/
which clearly has an error in the rankings...  i guess errors in the decklists are to be expected too?

[failtofind]

lol yep, idk what the hell is going on with their decklists

[voltron00x]

So its really late and I haven't slept much this week, and for some reason this sideboard popped into my head for Bob Tendrils:

3 Emrakul
3 Show and Tell
2 Ancient Tomb
1 Hurkyl's Recall
4 Leyline of the Void
1 Duress
1 Yixlid Jailer

I think its mostly just my dream to play Emrakul off Mind's Desire, which is now only possible in Vintage.  This sideboard would dodge Storm hate completely but the fact that Emrakul is vulnerable to Jace is kind of lame.  Probably would have to board out 4 Bobs on this plan... whole idea seems terrible, pretend this never happened.

[Ten-Ten]

i Didn't run Gush in my top 4 deck.

was it Fact or Fiction?
Also why the Virtue's ruin in the SB? seems perish would make more sense..I actually have a perish in my SB for noble fish or anything with Goyf or Trygon.
..any thoughts?...

[theLastGnu]

i Didn't run Gush in my top 4 deck.

was it Fact or Fiction?
Also why the Virtue's ruin in the SB? seems perish would make more sense..I actually have a perish in my SB for noble fish or anything with Goyf or Trygon.
..any thoughts?...

I think virtue's ruin is just better, it kills almost anything you SHOULD care about: canonist, teeg, meddling mage, mindcensor, and iona (if they name blue)
I'm not sure you really care about trygon in anything not running spheres because you're mostly sandbagging your moxen, you should also be able to just be faster than goyf.

[Ten-Ten]

i Didn't run Gush in my top 4 deck.

was it Fact or Fiction?
Also why the Virtue's ruin in the SB? seems perish would make more sense..I actually have a perish in my SB for noble fish or anything with Goyf or Trygon.
..any thoughts?...

I think virtue's ruin is just better, it kills almost anything you SHOULD care about: canonist, teeg, meddling mage, mindcensor, and iona (if they name blue)
I'm not sure you really care about trygon in anything not running spheres because you're mostly sandbagging your moxen, you should also be able to just be faster than goyf.

Great point I haven't faced any that you mentioned as of recently except Iona. Out of sight,Out of mind I guess

I have replaced the perish for a more flexible solution: Slaughterpact!
here is my SB:
4 leyline of the void
2 yixlid jailer
1 slaughterpact
2 bojuka bog
1 swamp
1 island
1 chain of vapor
2 hurkyl's recall
1 sadistic sacrament

[failtofind]

yep the only things that stop combo are white..mindcensor, teeg, canonist, meddlign mage..the deck doesnt care about hierarch, goyf, or any other garbage. as an added bonus it still hits pridemage and sphinx

[gamegeek2]

I think cutting Fact and Grim Tutor for 2 preordain is a reasonable decision.

[voltron00x]

I worked with Brad Granberry last night on a version of LSV's Bob Tendrils, and rode it to 3rd place at today's Blue Bell (39 players).  The deck seems to have a rather good match-up against Trygon Tezz.  I really liked it and would play it again.  The SB wasn't very good, I was concerned with Leyline of Sanctity but didn't see it, or Dredge, all day.  Next time I'll worry a little more about MUD, I think.

Bob Tendrils:

4 Bob
4 Force of Will
4 Dark Ritual
3 Duress
2 Tendrils of Agony
2 Preordain
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Chain of Vapor
1 Hurks
1 Rebuild
1 Cabal Ritual
1 Brainstorm
1 Ponder
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1Timetwister
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Merchant Scroll
1 Time Walk
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Mind's Desire
1 Timetwister
1 Necro
1 Black Lotus
5 Mox
1 Sol Ring
1 Mana Vault
1 Mana Crypt
4 Polluted Delta
1 Misty Rainforest
3 Underground Sea
2 Island
2 Swamp
1 Tolarian Academy

Sideboard:
4 Leyline of the Void
3 Yixlid Jailer
1 Island
1 Swamp
1 Echoing Truth
1 Inkwell Leviathan
1 Tinker
1 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Rushing River
1 Duress

You may notice Bargain is missing.  That wasn't intentional, and I didn't even realize it until after the tournament when talking to Brad about a few games he won with Bargain.  That's what happens when you build your deck at 2 AM the night before, I guess.  Although I've played Storm in other formats, this is the first time I've played it in Vintage.  

I'm pretty sure that I want to go -1 Duress main for +1 Bargain, and the sideboard needs some kind of better sweeper for MUD, whether it's a splash color, or whatever.  Having to worry about hateful creatures and Leyline of Sanctity plus wanting traditional Hurks / Rebuild / Chain mix vs MUD and beating Dredge, well... that's the challenge I guess.

In any case this deck and similar Bob Tendrils builds seem well-suited for this metagame and I'd recommend them if you want to beat the list from Champs.

[Duncan]

Matt, how has Mana Vault been for you? I'm asking this because you do not include either Gifts or FoF, regular 3-colorless-mana-sinks. I don't run those in my storm list either, but I also don't run Vault atm.

[Killane]

Matt, how has Mana Vault been for you? I'm asking this because you do not include either Gifts or FoF, regular 3-colorless-mana-sinks. I don't run those in my storm list either, but I also don't run Vault atm.

You do see that he's running Desire right? IMHO any Storm list that runs Desire and no Vault is Wrong. Especially when he's going to be running Bargain as well.

[Duncan]

I try not to think in decks not running a certain combination of cards as wrond. In my opinion, that sort of thinking limits your creativity.

I think a point can be made for Cabal Ritual over Mana Vault, although Mana Vault could certainly be the correct card. I was interested if Matt had specific reasons to include the card, or just saw it as an autorun.

Note that traditional GWSx lists all did run Desire, but no Vault. Because of the lack of colorless mana in the casting costs, Cabal Ritual was usually far better.

[M.Solymossy]

Mike Solymossy playing ‘I’m on MeanDeck, so this has to be good, right?’ – 4th Place
Business (33)
4 Force of Will
1 Misdirection
2 Mana Drain
3 Thoughtseize
1 Chain of Vapor
1 Rebuild
2 Sensei’s Divining Top
1 Brainstorm
1 Ponder
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Meditate
1 Gush
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Merchant Scroll
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Gifts Ungiven
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Mind’s Desire
1 Yawgmoth’s Bargain
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Yawgmoth’s Will
2 Doomsday

Mana Sources (27)
3 Dark Ritual
1 Black Lotus
1 Mana Crypt
1 Lotus Petal
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Sol Ring
1 Tolarian Academy
4 Polluted Delta
1 Scalding Tarn
1 Misty Rainforest
3 Underground Sea
1 Tropical Island
3 Island
1 Swamp

Sideboard (15)
1 Tropical Island
2 Trygon Predator
4 Dark Confidant
4 Yixlid Jailer
2 Hurkyl’s Recall
1 Tinker
1 Inkwell Leviathan

[M.Solymossy]

Note that traditional GWSx lists all did run Desire, but no Vault. Because of the lack of colorless mana in the casting costs, Cabal Ritual was usuallyALWAYS far better.

Duncan; fixed that for you.

[Djinn]

Mike Solymossy playing ‘I’m on MeanDeck, so this has to be good, right?’ – 4th Place
Business (33)
4 Force of Will
1 Misdirection
2 Mana Drain
3 Thoughtseize
1 Chain of Vapor
1 Rebuild
2 Sensei’s Divining Top
1 Brainstorm
1 Ponder
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Meditate
1 Gush
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Merchant Scroll
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Gifts Ungiven
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Mind’s Desire
1 Yawgmoth’s Bargain
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Yawgmoth’s Will
2 Doomsday

Mana Sources (27)
3 Dark Ritual
1 Black Lotus
1 Mana Crypt
1 Lotus Petal
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Sol Ring
1 Tolarian Academy
4 Polluted Delta
1 Scalding Tarn
1 Misty Rainforest
3 Underground Sea
1 Tropical Island
3 Island
1 Swamp

Sideboard (15)
1 Tropical Island
2 Trygon Predator
4 Dark Confidant
4 Yixlid Jailer
2 Hurkyl’s Recall
1 Tinker
1 Inkwell Leviathan

How has meditate worked out for you?  I recommended possibly running meditate a while ago on these forums but never got to testing it.  I'm interested to see how things have worked out for you.

[voltron00x]

Mana Vault was pretty good, it powered out early Tinkers in a lot of games.  I won a decent number of games with Tinker -> Inkwell post-board.  Cabal Ritual instead might also make sense though.

[desolutionist]

Is Doomsday/Meditate better than Infernal Contract?  Soly, can you give me example of what you normally construct with Doomsday?

[Blovdek]

This is the list that i am currently playing ... I think its close to optimal. I really like all the card selections also, feel free to ask how specific card are preforming. I choose not to run fact or fiction, as i think is quite weak in this kind of deck, as you dont know what to expect 2 flip, and because it doesent interract with your game plan 2 good. Im running 2 duress and 1 thoughtseize instead of 3 duress, so i can tutor duress, thoughtseize, force, midirection with giftts and because sometimes thoughtseize is just a better card, even though your lifes matter. So here is the list.

1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Pearl
1 Lotus Petal
1 Mana Crypt
1 Sol Ring
1 Mana Vault
1 Memory Jar ( probably the 1st tinker target in most of the casess)
1 Sensei Divining Top (very good with top deck tutors and artifact bounce, since u can draw a free card)

1 Necropotence
1 Yawgmoths Bargain

1 Inkwell Leviathan (running spynx is tempting, but theres 2 much jace arround)

1 Misdirection ( with 20 blue card its just affordable and its slightly better than the 4th discard spell, since its blue and can be remooved to force of will, in this deck 20 blue cards is the MINIMUM)
4 Force of Will
4 Dark Ritual
1 Cabal Ritual (2 clukny 2 run more than 1, but sometimes is just the nuts)
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Brainstorm
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Chain of Vapor
1 Hurkyls Recall (wins inkwell wars, although have to admitt its my 60 card)
1 Rebuild
1 Gifts Ungiven
1 Gush (better than fof for sure, and it also make imperial seal slight better)

2 Duress
1 Thoughtseize
1 Imperial Seal
1 Ponder
1 Time Walk
1 Merchant Scroll
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Tinker
1 Timetwister
1 Yawgmoths Will
1 Tendrills of Agony
1 Minds Desire

1 Tolarian Academy
4 Polluted Delta
1 Flooded Strand
1 Bloodstained Mire
1 Snow-Covered Island
1 Island
1 Swamp
3 Underground Sea

13 lands seem optimal 2 me for this deck, even though many play 12 ...

Take care ...

[M.Solymossy]

I wouldn't go below 14 lands personally, because quite honestly if you don't have a force for every lodestone golem that MUD plays, you just lose.


I loved Meditate.  It makes Doomsday Stacks SO easy. 


@Deselusionist
Doomsday is a very complex deck and I never once found myself making the same piles.  It really matters what you're enabler is.  If it's Jace, top, or Ponder for examplel, you're going to have to Meditate.  If it's top, you can set up Gush + Recall piles.   Lotus is always in there unless it's removed.  One game, I actually cast Doomsday as a Demonic Tutor for Tendrils because I had a ton of storm count and Top already in play. 


My favorite stack on the day was:
Gush
Lotus
Top
Yawgmoths Will
 Tendrils

I remember this turn very well.  I Played Thoughtseize (1), then played ritual (2) and Doomsday(3), stacking my deck as such.  I then cast ponder (4) to get gush, and gushed (5) into Lotus + Top.  Lotus (6) and top (7) let me cast will (8) which let me recast lotus (9) and then gush again (10) to play top (11) and tendrils(12) to get around my oponent's ability to natures claim his mox.

[voltron00x]

And THAT is why Vintage is awesome.

[M.Solymossy]

And THAT is why Vintage is awesome.

Agreed.  To be honest, I really love to challenge myself when I play.  That's why I really liked GWSx over Long or TPS, even in the four brainstorm era.  You really have to plan ahead with these decks, instead of having a broken hand and saying "wonder where this desire will go?".

I also really loved playing Gifts back in 2005-06, and Doomsday is a card that's just as difficult in certain situations as that card.  It really is a FUN card to play.

I personally don't have fun playing Time Vault.  I do it in bigger tournaments for obvious reasons, but at Xtreme Games I'm pretty sure I'll continue to play things like Doomsday.

[liontruth]

@all: Is Gush really that good in TPS? It's kinda weird coz we don't play it pre-Lodestone Golem. Why now?

@Blovdek: Have you tested Grim Tutor?

[Killane]

@all: Is Gush really that good in TPS? It's kinda weird coz we don't play it pre-Lodestone Golem. Why now?

@Blovdek: Have you tested Grim Tutor?

I haven't tested Gush in TPS myself yet, but I imagine that a free draw 2 which dodges chalice and helps dodge wasteland is kind of awesome vs Shops.

Grim Tutor is really expensive. I myself don't run it becuase I'm in a 10 proxy meta and own zero power and no imperial seal. Seal > Grim in TPS.

[M.Solymossy]

Seal > Grim in TPS.

This is wrong.  You're also cutting Cabal Rituals.  EVERY GAME I play with TPS I find myself trying to figure out how to get Threshold.

[liontruth]

Seal > Grim in TPS.

This is wrong.

I'm with Soly here.

Seal > Grim in Vintage, but not in TPS

[Killane]

Seal > Grim in TPS.

This is wrong.  You're also cutting Cabal Rituals.  EVERY GAME I play with TPS I find myself trying to figure out how to get Threshold.

What? I've never ever wanted to cut Seal in TPS. It's a 1 mana tutor for whatever you need. It's a Vampiric Tutor, only sorcey speed. Grim may be a Demonic Tutor, but it costs a non-trivial amount of life and an extra mana, an extra mana in a deck which can get VERY mana hungry. yes it's a great set-up tutor for Will, but Seal + a draw spell is still cheeper in terms of life and mana. Given that i have nochoice but tcut one, I tested boht, and when I first started with TPS I cut Grim, thinking that as a worse Demonic, it's better than a worse Vampiric. Remarks from seveal TPS players stuck in my head though, and I tested Seal. In the end, Seal seems better - it has more synergies and lower mana cost whcih is espeically relevant vs Shops. I'd also like to noe that post-board, flipping Seal and then casting it off Bob costs 3 lif which is steep but reasonable. Flipping Grim and then casting it off Bob costs 6, which is gross. That's a lost Ancestral off Necro or Bargain in comparision. Yikes!

And yes, I think post-board Bobs are the right call in TPS.

I"M not cutting cabal rituals, Blovdek is. I now and alway have thought 2 Cabal rituals is correct for TPS. I made zero commentary on that.

[M.Solymossy]

I made a mistake with who was cutting Cabal Rituals.  You're playing 2, which is probably even more of a reason to keep Grim Tutor in TPS.

The problem I have with Imperial Seal in TPS is that it's way too easy to disrupt.    It gives your opponent enough time to really put the hurt on you.  In one turn, the whole gamestate can, and often does change, and can make you look like a fool with that Imperial Seal card stuck on top of your deck.   At gencon, I was able to Seal for Yawgmoth's Will, just to have Vincent Forino cast Chalice @ 3, and make me look like an idiot when I fetched away my seal target (I was playing Tezzeret).

Almost everything in Workshop decks right now change gamestates drastically, and sure: Grim is bad in this matchup, but Grim also helps your turn 1 tutor ability.  I would ALWAYS cast Ritual-> Grim, Get lotus in this matchup on Turn 1. 
 
Also, thoughtseizes are at an all-time high.  Sure you can seal recall and get back in the game, but if you're trying to set it up, any decent player will see your plan the minute you reveal your hand, and adjust their plan accordingly.

That, and Jace, The guy everyone will always play 4 of in every blue deck ever because it sculpts your mind is seeing play.

Ask Jesse Martin and Owen Turtenwald how good Imperial Seal is when you have Jace.

[failtofind]

lol -1 imperial seal +1 preordain.