supporting Bitter ordeal

[AmbivalentDuck]

Instead of playing with bad cards, just up your fetch/"lotus"/strip counts.  You only need to get gravestorm 3: that's stripping/wasting/ghost quartering a land.

[policehq]

Some random stuff off the top of my head, most of it bad. Just throwing it out there.

Blood Pet
Blood Vassal
Basal Sliver

Chromatic Sphere
Chromatic Star
Terrarion (LAWL)

Phyrexian Altar
Ashnod's Altar
Mitotic Slime
Sengir Autocrat

Recurring Nightmare
Priest of Gix
Peregrine Drake/etc

Squandered Resources
Ancient Spring/etc
Svyelunite Templte/etc
Saprazzan Skerry/etc

Balance
Balancing Act
Cataclysm

As a means of finding Bitter Ordeal and building Gravestorm, Chromatic artifacts and Odyssey "eggs" seem synergetic, even if not competitive. A Helm of Awakening is probably a bad idea, but all of your eggs will be free, and any black egg can pay for Bitter Ordeal. Culling the Weak, cheap creatures, and Skullclamp provide mana and draw. Diabolic Intent does both as well.

The problem with aiming just to remove cards from the opponent's deck is that it has a natural foil of decks with cheap creatures or Workshops and cmc 4 creatures. A threat may be already on the board before you can remove the rest, even if you get 16 on turn 2.

[Delha]

As a means of finding Bitter Ordeal and building Gravestorm, Chromatic artifacts and Odyssey "eggs" seem synergetic, even if not competitive.

Etherium Sculptor.

[TheShop]

How about Stall.dec using cabal therapy, zuran orb, etc. and run bitter ordeal as a later game threat.

[Thegreatgonzo]

how about salvage titan? Decks that don't really care about ordeal do care about a recurring craw wurm for 0 mana

[Killane]

How about Stall.dec using cabal therapy, zuran orb, etc. and run bitter ordeal as a later game threat.

Bitter Ordeal is a pretty bad late game threat, since it does nothing against wincons that the've played/drawn already. If you want a good late game threat that works on a Storm-type mechanic, try a little known cardthat's never seen any play. Sure it doesn;t do much about your opponent's threats, but i think if you build the deck right you might be able to kill them with it after casting some spells. I don;t know, maybe it's janky, but it seems like there could be some decent decks to be built arround this...

here's the card

 

[waffles]

How about Stall.dec using cabal therapy, zuran orb, etc. and run bitter ordeal as a later game threat.

Bitter Ordeal is a pretty bad late game threat, since it does nothing against wincons that the've played/drawn already. If you want a good late game threat that works on a Storm-type mechanic, try a little known cardthat's never seen any play. Sure it doesn;t do much about your opponent's threats, but i think if you build the deck right you might be able to kill them with it after casting some spells. I don;t know, maybe it's janky, but it seems like there could be some decent decks to be built arround this...

here's the card

 

hilarious man, but seriously i think the shell i was working on for leyline of anticipation might work for this.

[MaximumCDawg]

An elegant way to both find and augment Bitter Ordeal is Bazaar of Baghdad. 

Nope.  Gravestorm does not count cards discarded.

[brianpk80]

Hmmm...

"Gravestorm (When you cast this spell, copy it for each permanent put into a graveyard this turn. You may choose new targets for the copies.)"

I suppose that might be correct, though they're typically more explicit about things being placed there "from the battlefield."  Learn something new every day. 

[Daenyth]

Saying "from the battlefield" would be redundant. Cards are only ever "permanent" when in the battlefield. If it's on the stack is a "spell", anywhere else it's a "card"

[Darkenslight]

I was thinking about Reassembling Skeleton, and wondering if there was a way to get it to come back in a cycle.  I didn't find one, but I did find a Possibility:  Phyrexian Altar + Carnival of Souls.  The loop goes like this:

in pool, Altar and Carnival in play

1) Cast Reassembling Skeleton.
2) Sacrifice Reassembling Skeleton to Phyrexian Altar, naming Black.
3) Use the remaining  to return Skeleton to play.
4) Carnival triggers, lose 1 life, gain B in pool.
5) Repeat.

If you have a lifegain creature (such as Deathgreeter, which triggers off a creature going into the graveyard,) then you're golden.

[waffles]

I was thinking about Reassembling Skeleton, and wondering if there was a way to get it to come back in a cycle.  I didn't find one, but I did find a Possibility:  Phyrexian Altar + Carnival of Souls.  The loop goes like this:

in pool, Altar and Carnival in play

1) Cast Reassembling Skeleton.
2) Sacrifice Reassembling Skeleton to Phyrexian Altar, naming Black.
3) Use the remaining  to return Skeleton to play.
4) Carnival triggers, lose 1 life, gain B in pool.
5) Repeat.

If you have a lifegain creature (such as Deathgreeter, which triggers off a creature going into the graveyard,) then you're golden.

hrmm, i am still working on how to make this work, so far im working on a null profusion shell to try to get this to work.

[AmbivalentDuck]

Slight upgrade: Heartstone won't cost you any life.  So, Skeleton, Heartstone, Phyrexian Altar.

This is a 5-7 mana three card combo.  Why play this over Vault-Key?

[Darkenslight]

Slight upgrade: Heartstone won't cost you any life.  So, Skeleton, Heartstone, Phyrexian Altar.

This is a 5-7 mana three card combo.  Why play this over Vault-Key?

Heartstone doesn't work, and neither does Training Grounds.  They only work on permanents in play.

[brianpk80]

Saying "from the battlefield" would be redundant. Cards are only ever "permanent" when in the battlefield. If it's on the stack is a "spell", anywhere else it's a "card"

Wizards has a history of being redundant, unclear, and other such things in text.  At any rate, the rules issue seems to have been resolved a few days ago.  I'm not sure what you are trying to say in your last sentence, but I'll leave that for brighter minds to discern. 

[Killane]

I still feel that Bitter Ordeal is not a card to buidl your deck around, especially not around a 3 card combo.

[brianpk80]

I still feel that Bitter Ordeal is not a card to buidl your deck around, especially not around a 3 card combo.

I agree that this is true for the current meta.  I'm a fan of the Extract strategy when the top decks are so efficient they only run 1 or 2 win conditions.  It gets behind the brokenness and surgically removes the heart of a deck like Gifts, and earlier incarnations of Pitch Long and Oath, etc.  Right now its potency is waning as the top Drain deck has almost as many win conditions as Fish, many of them even having their origins from that archetype (Bob, Trygon). 

[waffles]

I think i have something this time, ive been tinkering around with null profusion and mostly 0 cost stuff idea being that more stuff on the board the more to sac, with the low curve i will eventually chain draw my deck. this is all backed up with hand disruption, right now i am trying forbidden ritual.

[Delha]

If you're including a boatload of Moxen, 4xHurkyl's in the main is probably a good idea, since that's probably the quickest way to go infi w/ Recycle. The collateral damage to various opponents by being pre-sided against their bots/lock pieces is nice too.

Just bear in mind that any deck so dependent on Moxen folds to Chalice or Rod.

[waffles]

If you're including a boatload of Moxen, 4xHurkyl's in the main is probably a good idea, since that's probably the quickest way to go infi w/ Recycle. The collateral damage to various opponents by being pre-sided against their bots/lock pieces is nice too.

Just bear in mind that any deck so dependent on Moxen folds to Chalice or Rod.

yes, but a countered spell still counts for being played as far as null profusion is concerned so chalice isnt that bothersome, but i do see the point of where they dont make it to play. i decided to include lands so null rod isnt that threating if at all minimal. if its really a bother ill toss in pyrexian tribute, a good use for kololds. A few goldfish games i found that the forbidden ritual is kinda neat in this, as is raven crime, though there is a bit of awkwardness in trying to cast the ordeal after the forbidden ritual may be still a mana issue. Might change from 2x to 1x and go the route of claws of gix for a sac outlet though that makes me more vulnerable to null rod. I should probalily should include extripates as well. oh so far ive been just messing around with a mono black verson. but if i do go the way of B/U i might try throwing in leyline of anticipation to see if it will work in this setting, in theory it sounds good since it allows me a better syngery with necro, because as it stands necro just doesnt work well with null profusion.

[Delha]

From the cards you've listed above, I'd would definitely say you're falling into the trap of "too cute".

With the engine you're describing, if you've cast enough permanents to do anything significant with Forbidden Ritual, you might as well be casting Tendrils. It just wins outright, doesn't give them choices, and doesn't require that you dig up Bitter Ordeal and the mana to cast it. The eternal dilemma with new deck concepts in Vintage is coming to the fore again. For 99.9% of ideas, there is another deck doing the same thing, but better.

I highly suspect that the most efficient engine for Ordeal is to put it in a WGD shell. At that point though, you might as well just include a creature based kill, since you have to stop the loop anyway.

[waffles]

From the cards you've listed above, I'd would definitely say you're falling into the trap of "too cute".

With the engine you're describing, if you've cast enough permanents to do anything significant with Forbidden Ritual, you might as well be casting Tendrils. It just wins outright, doesn't give them choices, and doesn't require that you dig up Bitter Ordeal and the mana to cast it. The eternal dilemma with new deck concepts in Vintage is coming to the fore again. For 99.9% of ideas, there is another deck doing the same thing, but better.

I highly suspect that the most efficient engine for Ordeal is to put it in a WGD shell. At that point though, you might as well just include a creature based kill, since you have to stop the loop anyway.

this is the best way i have come up to make it a main board kill condtion. Actually, that was going to be my 2nd  game strat, using a transitive sideboard to turn it into tendrils, i think it would work since the shell is pretty close to standard tendrils shell. though finding a sac outlet better than forbidden ritual would be nice.

[Delha]

The big question any deck has to answer to be competitive is this:
"What does this deck have over the other top decks in the field?"

On a more tuning oriented level, the question becomes:
"What does this card have over the other top cards available?"

Unfortunately, in the vast majority of cases, an objective answer to both question is going to end with "not much". Here, if we compare Forbidden Ritual to Tendrils, the latter is simply the more efficient wincon. When your Plan B is superior to your Plan A, you need to reconsider your priorities.

I can understand the motivation that leads people into the "snowflake" trap. Everyone wants to be beautiful and unique. At the end of the day though, the question is how much optimization you're willing to sacrifice to that end. When an option is strictly inferior to the mainstream answer, you need to either go with conventional wisdom, or accept that the deck will be less effective.

[Darkenslight]

Hmm...Would a Basal Sliver/Hivestone combo deck work with this?  I'm thinking having Nether Traitors, Bloodghast and Nether Traitor, along with Buried Alive and tutors, along with Disruption (Leyline, Duress, TS, Hymn, even Rapid Decay [!]).

But then I am insane. 

[waffles]

Hmm...Would a Basal Sliver/Hivestone combo deck work with this?  I'm thinking having Nether Traitors, Bloodghast and Nether Traitor, along with Buried Alive and tutors, along with Disruption (Leyline, Duress, TS, Hymn, even Rapid Decay [!]).

But then I am insane. 

this would have to be very low cost if it was going to work, that seems more intensive than just playing zero cost stuff although it does keep the threat of chalice pretty low, a better plan i think would be hivestone and kobolds and basall sliver, but event that a bit extraneous since it requires that hivestone be in play.

[Delha]

Being dependent on Hivestone is little different from being dependent on Recycle.

Blood Pet, Blood Vassal, Basal Thrull, Soldevi Adnate are other things along the same vein. I think that the approach using this creature group is stronger than the Recycle plan, since you have something like 20 potential copies of your enablers. The fact that they generate mana also helps you accelerate into Ordeal. Also note that you can run Hivestone/Recycle/etc as support for the creatures.

Side note: 2x Nether Traitor + Phyrexian Altar = Infi Gravestorm. Between Entomb/Intuition/Buried Alive, it shouldn't be too hard to set up. Diabolic Intent makes digging up Altar/Ordeal easier too, in any of the creature based lists.

[waffles]

Being dependent on Hivestone is little different from being dependent on Recycle.

Blood Pet, Blood Vassal, Basal Thrull, Soldevi Adnate are other things along the same vein. I think that the approach using this creature group is stronger than the Recycle plan, since you have something like 20 potential copies of your enablers. The fact that they generate mana also helps you accelerate into Ordeal. Also note that you can run Hivestone/Recycle/etc as support for the creatures.

Side note: 2x Nether Traitor + Phyrexian Altar = Infi Gravestorm. Between Entomb/Intuition/Buried Alive, it shouldn't be too hard to set up. Diabolic Intent makes digging up Altar/Ordeal easier too, in any of the creature based lists.

i did try going the blood pet, basal sliver route even tried using overeager apprentice, though i did fail to include hivestone. Now that i think of it the evoke creatures work with this quite well too, but i cant think of any good ones off the top of my head other than ingot chewer. At the moment i am using duress and raven's crime to destroy their hand as a way to buy me time and to protect from counters. Ill try to post a list when i can find some time.

[Darkenslight]

Hrm...DECKLIST TIEM! 

Mana: 25

6 Swamp
6 Fetch
4 Drit.
7 SoLoMoxen
Crypt
Mana Vault

Combo: 16

4 Phyrexian Altar
4 Nether Traitor
2 Nether Spirit
2 Bloodghast
4 Bitter Ordeal

Other: 19

Necro
YawgWin
DT
4 Buried Alive
4 Duress
4 Thoughtsieze
4 open slots (probably Entomb)

SB: 15

4 Ravenous Trap
4 LotV
4 Helm of Obedience
3 open.

That way, you can side out your chaff BO for Helmline, which has completely different hate.

[Delha]

I'd find space for Blood Pets. T1 Blood Pet, T2 Fetch, Ordeal for three is a very easy line of play. Since it's mana neutral, it's pretty much a free point of gravestorm, even if you rip it on the turn where you're casting Ordeal in the first place.

Also, you should probably cut Nether Spirits. Reassembling Skeleton is probably better.

Innocent Blood barely impacts you at all, while getting rid of opposing Tinker bots, Golems, etc.

[waffles]

Hrm...DECKLIST TIEM! 

Mana: 25

6 Swamp
6 Fetch
4 Drit.
7 SoLoMoxen
Crypt
Mana Vault

Combo: 16

4 Phyrexian Altar
4 Nether Traitor
2 Nether Spirit
2 Bloodghast
4 Bitter Ordeal

Other: 19

Necro
YawgWin
DT
4 Buried Alive
4 Duress
4 Thoughtsieze
4 open slots (probably Entomb)

SB: 15

4 Ravenous Trap
4 LotV
4 Helm of Obedience
3 open.

That way, you can side out your chaff BO for Helmline, which has completely different hate.

what about waste effects?