Leyline of Anticiptation

[waffles]

I have writen a primer it is below. I still think that the vintage community is underrating this card. Ive come up with a deck that takes advantage that this card provides. This list is untested, and very rough.

4   Leyline of Sanctity
4   Leyline of Anticipation
4   Force of Will
2   Hurkyl's Recall
1   Timetwister
4   Foil Spell Pierce
1   brainstorm
1   Mind's Desire
1   A. Recall
1   Ponder
3   Serum Powder
4   Chalice of the Void
1   Mox Pearl
1   Mox Emerald
1   Mox Ruby
1   Mox Jet
1   Mox Sapphire
1   Black Lotus
4   Chrome Mox
1   Possessed Portal
4   Empty the Warrens
4   tendrils of Agony
4   Underground Sea
4   Polluted Delta
4   Baazar of Bagdad
61 35

For reference


The leyline is really crazy since chalice can be played on their upkeep, locking them out from playing most of their mana base if they happen to be powered by mox/lotus. i tried to go landless but i couldn't think of anything to sub for those cards between 0-1 cost. The win condtion in this is a bit shaky, but i figured i could try using warrens or tendrils to accomplish this. A for the comments of the extra leylines being dead cards, they arent they pitch to force or get eaten by chrome Mox.

[Killane]

not to put too fine a point on it but this list is really really bad.

1. You're playing Foil yet have only 4 islands.

2. You're playing Chalice of the Void, yet have a mana base that is reliant on moxen.

3. Why are you playing a Posessed Portal?

4. Eight storm cards are WWAYYYYYY too many. The most you ever want to run is 4 to dodge Jester's Cap effects, but generally even that many is bad unless you are expecting heavy caps. Teh extras are just dead cards, on top of the dead leylines (which you have virtually no way to hardcast)

5. you have no way to abuse Bazaar. just running it to filter your massive numbers of dead cards is rather suboptimal. It also has pretty bad dissynergy with Posessed Portal without Dredgers.

6. You have 4 mana producing lands, and you want to cast spells to win. You also have 0 basics. boo.

[M.Solymossy]

1st:  Welcome to TMD.


2nd:  This is the worst deck I've seen since anything Ambivaliant Duck posts.   You want to play chalice to lock them out of playing their "Most important spells", but you lock out more of your own mana than theirs.

You play Leyline of Sanctity for what reason exactly?

You play 4 Foil, and only FOUR CARDS WITH ISLAND IN THEIR CARD TYPE.  

4 Empty the Warrens and 4 Tendrils.  How do you ever plan on playing them?

There is a whole lotta cards that aren't in this list that should be.   Can I direct you to the Restricted list?




ugh...

This whole thread has aids.

[waffles]

1st:  Welcome to TMD.


2nd:  This is the worst deck I've seen since anything Ambivaliant Duck posts.   You want to play chalice to lock them out of playing their "Most important spells", but you lock out more of your own mana than theirs.

You play Leyline of Sanctity for what reason exactly?

You play 4 Foil, and only FOUR CARDS WITH ISLAND IN THEIR CARD TYPE.  

4 Empty the Warrens and 4 Tendrils.  How do you ever plan on playing them?

There is a whole lotta cards that aren't in this list that should be.   Can I direct you to the Restricted list?




ugh...

This whole thread has aids.

thank you for being highly hostile and borderline helpful, on to actual constructive critisim

not to put too fine a point on it but this list is really really bad.

1. You're playing Foil yet have only 4 islands.

2. You're playing Chalice of the Void, yet have a mana base that is reliant on moxen.

3. Why are you playing a Posessed Portal?

4. Eight storm cards are WWAYYYYYY too many. The most you ever want to run is 4 to dodge Jester's Cap effects, but generally even that many is bad unless you are expecting heavy caps. Teh extras are just dead cards, on top of the dead leylines (which you have virtually no way to hardcast)

5. you have no way to abuse Bazaar. just running it to filter your massive numbers of dead cards is rather suboptimal. It also has pretty bad dissynergy with Posessed Portal without Dredgers.

6. You have 4 mana producing lands, and you want to cast spells to win. You also have 0 basics. boo.

Okay killane, here we go:

1 .i can replace the foils, i was just thinking of counters off the top of my head that could be played for cheap

2. um you can respond to the chalice with the leyline in play everything has flash iand in the same way that some decks sculpt their hands to get leyline of the void on the board, wish to achieve the same thing in this deck.

3. i did say i had no idea about an actual kill condition, so i ran with that.

4. i dont know, thought i could minds desire into it, but not as good without some way to either discard or sac to- will remove

5.the lands are actually filler, i was aiming for a landless deck, less to slow this down

6. see 5

[Delha]

2. You're playing Chalice of the Void, yet have a mana base that is reliant on moxen.

2. um you can respond to the chalice with the leyline in play everything has flash iand in the same way that some decks sculpt their hands to get leyline of the void on the board, wish to achieve the same thing in this deck.

However, you can't respond to Chalice on any turns after it hits play, meaning all those moxen are now dead draws. If you're really set on an all in combo deck with Leyline, I'd suggest you look at No-Land-Belcher for a shell to tinker with.

[Killane]

2. You're playing Chalice of the Void, yet have a mana base that is reliant on moxen.

2. um you can respond to the chalice with the leyline in play everything has flash iand in the same way that some decks sculpt their hands to get leyline of the void on the board, wish to achieve the same thing in this deck.

However, you can't respond to Chalice on any turns after it hits play, meaning all those moxen are now dead draws. If you're really set on an all in combo deck with Leyline, I'd suggest you look at No-Land-Belcher for a shell to tinker with.

x2

1st:  Welcome to TMD.


2nd:  This is the worst deck I've seen since anything Ambivaliant Duck posts.   You want to play chalice to lock them out of playing their "Most important spells", but you lock out more of your own mana than theirs.

You play Leyline of Sanctity for what reason exactly?

You play 4 Foil, and only FOUR CARDS WITH ISLAND IN THEIR CARD TYPE. 

4 Empty the Warrens and 4 Tendrils.  How do you ever plan on playing them?

There is a whole lotta cards that aren't in this list that should be.   Can I direct you to the Restricted list?




ugh...

This whole thread has aids.

thank you for being highly hostile and borderline helpful, on to actual constructive critisim

not to put too fine a point on it but this list is really really bad.

1. You're playing Foil yet have only 4 islands.

2. You're playing Chalice of the Void, yet have a mana base that is reliant on moxen.

3. Why are you playing a Posessed Portal?

4. Eight storm cards are WWAYYYYYY too many. The most you ever want to run is 4 to dodge Jester's Cap effects, but generally even that many is bad unless you are expecting heavy caps. Teh extras are just dead cards, on top of the dead leylines (which you have virtually no way to hardcast)

5. you have no way to abuse Bazaar. just running it to filter your massive numbers of dead cards is rather suboptimal. It also has pretty bad dissynergy with Posessed Portal without Dredgers.

6. You have 4 mana producing lands, and you want to cast spells to win. You also have 0 basics. boo.

Okay killane, here we go:

1 .i can replace the foils, i was just thinking of counters off the top of my head that could be played for cheap

2. um you can respond to the chalice with the leyline in play everything has flash iand in the same way that some decks sculpt their hands to get leyline of the void on the board, wish to achieve the same thing in this deck.

3. i did say i had no idea about an actual kill condition, so i ran with that.

4. i dont know, thought i could minds desire into it, but not as good without some way to either discard or sac to- will remove

5.the lands are actually filler, i was aiming for a landless deck, less to slow this down

6. see 5

1st, although Soly can come off as a bit abrasive, he tends to have good points. I wouldn't dismiss him so quickly.

2nd, general comment - even in the "creative" forum we tend to look for some thought in deck construction here at TMD. Things like including 4 Foils with only 4 Islands for support tend to give the impression that you haven;t really thought things through much.

point by point:

1. Yes please do.

2. What Delha said. CoTV doesn;t belong in a deck with full moxen unlessthat deck also has Workshops and is called Stax or MUD.

3. you do realize Portal doesn't actually kill them right? It locks them down and eventually wipes the hand and board so you can kill them with .... well whatever but it's no kill con in and of itself.

4. oops, i think you mixed up 4 and 5. Ok, so now that i know you'll ditch portal I repeat the comment that 8 Storm spells are wayyyyy to many, and move on

5. (and 6). Wow. You're going to use a playset of $300 cards and a playset of $90 cards for filler? te Salut, Don Corleone.

I'd like to repeat Mike's sentiment this point. This deck is truly aweful and doesn't show much thought. I'm not being harsh for the sake of being harsh, I'm hoping you just need a wkeup call to think a bit deeper about your decklists prior to posting them.

try writing a mini-primer on the deck, from a theoretical standpoint, before posting it up. go trhough and explain why you picked each card, how you constructed the manabase, what the synergies are, etc... You'll find that glaring weakness in your lists start to come through more clearly. it also helps people respond to your ideas because we get to see your thought process.

As for this deck, I'm sorry to say i think you shoudl scrap it and look at adding leylines to Belcher like Delha said. that would be one scaar, if unstable, deck.

[waffles]

try writing a mini-primer on the deck, from a theoretical standpoint, before posting it up. go trhough and explain why you picked each card, how you constructed the manabase, what the synergies are, etc... You'll find that glaring weakness in your lists start to come through more clearly. it also helps people respond to your ideas because we get to see your thought process.

As for this deck, I'm sorry to say i think you shoudl scrap it and look at adding leylines to Belcher like Delha said. that would be one scaar, if unstable, deck.

Well, i think that will help everyone get on the same page i am on. What would be the point of that? It wouldnt be mine, yes it would get me there, but its not deveploping anything new. So not a concideration for me.

2. You're playing Chalice of the Void, yet have a mana base that is reliant on moxen.

2. um you can respond to the chalice with the leyline in play everything has flash iand in the same way that some decks sculpt their hands to get leyline of the void on the board, wish to achieve the same thing in this deck.

However, you can't respond to Chalice on any turns after it hits play, meaning all those moxen are now dead draws. If you're really set on an all in combo deck with Leyline, I'd suggest you look at No-Land-Belcher for a shell to tinker with.

to answer a chalice on the board is easy. bounce it or phase it.

[Killane]

try writing a mini-primer on the deck, from a theoretical standpoint, before posting it up. go trhough and explain why you picked each card, how you constructed the manabase, what the synergies are, etc... You'll find that glaring weakness in your lists start to come through more clearly. it also helps people respond to your ideas because we get to see your thought process.

As for this deck, I'm sorry to say i think you shoudl scrap it and look at adding leylines to Belcher like Delha said. that would be one scaar, if unstable, deck.

Well, i think that will help everyone get on the same page i am on. What would be the point of that? It wouldnt be mine, yes it would get me there, but its not deveploping anything new. So not a concideration for me.

Innovation does not have to be the creation of an entire deck. making a fringe deck insane is just as much of an innovation, if not more so. Look what Menendian et al. did with Long.dec.

Besides, do you want to innovate, or do you want to win? From the list above, I would say you need more practice with the interactions in the format before trying to design a brand new deck. I've been workign had at Vintage for 2 years now and only recently ahve I started to feel comfortable enough with the format to try designing things. It takes time.

[M.Solymossy]

I thought telling you the truth about your deck was being constructive.  I guess after I get back from Work I can apply greater depth:
 Here's my outline:

1) Stax
2) Null Rod
3) combo
4) Bazaar of Baghdad
5) 8leyline.dec
6) oponents with an IQ level higher than a Rock.

[Killane]

lmao. Nice post Mike.

[BruiZar]

As Brassman puts it, innovation is the unsung hero of crappy designs. Innovation is only good when it solves problems. I would not recommend new for the sake of new. Designing decks in vintage is 99 out of a 100 times a thought experiment that will teach you more about the format and the card interactions. That is why writing a mini primer is important. For each card, write your reasons down for their inclusion and ideally why you chose the number of cards. It's not just to show us that you have an understanding of deck design, but also to teach yourself to be critical about cards. Take a look at Terastodon Oath, that deck is so streamlined that it's very hard to choose 3 cards that you would like to replace for something else and improve the deck. The margins for change are really slim and even finding space for your sideboard cards can be challenging. The list you have made seems like it was quickly thrown together and it needs to be refined. You need to think of a plan for your deck (what role does the deck take). Read up on the many free articles that are on this site to get a better grasp of design.

That said, I do agree that Leyline of Anticipation has a future.

[waffles]

I thought telling you the truth about your deck was being constructive.  I guess after I get back from Work I can apply greater depth:
 Here's my outline:

1) Stax
2) Null Rod
3) combo
4) Bazaar of Baghdad
5) 8leyline.dec
6) oponents with an IQ level higher than a Rock.

 
there is nothing wrong with being truthful but just saying its bad doesnt tell me much sure you pointed out some stuff but after that you just copped out and went LOLBAD. That was what i wasnt happy with

As Brassman puts it, innovation is the unsung hero of crappy designs. Innovation is only good when it solves problems. I would not recommend new for the sake of new. Designing decks in vintage is 99 out of a 100 times a thought experiment that will teach you more about the format and the card interactions. That is why writing a mini primer is important. For each card, write your reasons down for their inclusion and ideally why you chose the number of cards. It's not just to show us that you have an understanding of deck design, but also to teach yourself to be critical about cards. Take a look at Terastodon Oath, that deck is so streamlined that it's very hard to choose 3 cards that you would like to replace for something else and improve the deck. The margins for change are really slim and even finding space for your sideboard cards can be challenging. The list you have made seems like it was quickly thrown together and it needs to be refined. You need to think of a plan for your deck (what role does the deck take). Read up on the many free articles that are on this site to get a better grasp of design.

That said, I do agree that Leyline of Anticipation has a future.

yes it was thrown together the glaring hole in that list are there cause its a very rough idea, but i thought the point of this subsection of this fourm was to hashout very rough framework to nearly running ideas.  i saw the synergies in this deck, and the potential of being explosive but i think ill go back to the drawing board and write a primer on this because it is getting me nowhere as it stands.

[BruiZar]

Alright, if you write out the rationale for the inclusion of the cards we can start giving you meaningful advice on why those cards should or shouldn't be in there (i wont bother you yet with the reasons you have excluded some other very good cards). Just a pointer, its important that you clearly define a strategy/role for the deck.

[Delha]

Well, i think that will help everyone get on the same page i am on. What would be the point of that? It wouldnt be mine, yes it would get me there, but its not deveploping anything new. So not a concideration for me.

I take it you've never heard the phrase "Standing on the shoulders of giants". The mistakes you're making are a clear indicator that you're not yet on the same level as many of the tournament veterans here. If you want to build decks from scratch, you should develop the knowledge base to do so effectively. The most efficient way to do that is by working with existing frameworks to better understand their workings, through research, play, and tuning.

As an example, you tried to build a deck without lands (that still casts spells), and knowledge of the format points towards Belcher as the most established example of that. Even if you insist on creating something new, it would make sense to look over the deck and consider which cards are useful for your purposes. ANT would also be a good deck to review, as its inherent speed makes a high land count undesirable. The next step is to consider what cards cause problems for these decks, and how those cards would affect the list you are brewing.

I understand that yours is a much more casual environment. These boards however, are predominantly focused on building decks capable of competition in major events, and people are going to post accordingly.

to answer to a chalice on the board is easy. bounce it or phase it.

Consider this scenario: Are on the draw with no opening Leyline. They go T1 Chalice/Sphere/Thorn/Golem/Rod. You now have no mana to bounce or phase anything, meaning that you've lost the game to one of the most prevalent decks in the format, which typically runs 16+ cards which irrevocably lock you of the game.

ugh...

This whole thread has aids.

Yeah, that's clearly "the truth about his deck", and quite constructive. Look, if you're going to be a dick to someone, don't act all asshurt when they get pissed off.

[M.Solymossy]

Yeah, that's clearly "the truth about his deck", and quite constructive. Look, if you're going to be a dick to someone, don't act all asshurt when they get pissed off.

Actually, I'm not asshurt at all.  I'm just going to be mature and not tear into this thread and the 10 ways I can think of about why it would never work outside the kitchen table.  Thanks for trying, though. 

[waffles]

So back to the drawing board, more to come at a later time.

[Tobi]

I guess to start off thinking about Leyline of Anticipation being included into a deck, we should draw an outline of parameters that the deck should cover:

1. The deck should be good without Leyline
2. The deck should be the nuts with Leyline in play
3. The deck should have use for topdecked Leylines, or not have a problem with dead draws
4. The list should include many cards that make the most out of a Leyline in play, but are also good without it

For example, Chalice is a very good card to use with Leyline on it's own. Being able to play a Chalice on opponent's 1st upkeep with you being on the draw sounds powerful. Chalice also partially solves point 3 since it turns a lot of opponent's cards into dead draws, and if your list may drop a Chalice@1 without hurting itself, even more so.
Cards like Duress, Tendrils, EtW, Confidant are good on their own and a lot better with Flash.

No land Belcher is another good example that solves the above mentioned points. However I have to say that I already tested it and it wasn't as good as I expected it to be. Having a Leyine on the draw is fine, but that is basically like being on the play with a mulligan to 6.

So I think this is where we have to start thinking if we want to make Leyline of Anticipation work.

[BruiZar]

Chrome Mox is another good outlet for additional leylines, as is misdirection force of will and commandeer

[Tobi]

Chrome Mox is another good outlet for additional leylines, as is misdirection force of will and commandeer

Don't forget Bazaar of Baghdad!

[M.Solymossy]

So back to the drawing board, more to come at a later time.

I'd just like to point out that my points above have now been proven.

[Demonic Attorney]

Verbal warning to Soly for flaming.  Soly, I've asked you multiple times recently to stop antagonizing Ambivalent Duck, and you haven't done that.  The staff have been asking you, for as long as I can remember, to stop the needless hostility.  You're very close to a demotion to Restricted Posting.  -DA

[waffles]

Creature [12]

4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Arcbound Ravager Simian Sprit Guide
4 Salvage Titan

Enchantment [6]

4 Leyline of Anticipation
12 Recycle Null Profusion
1 Artificer's Intuition

Instant [10]

1 Ancestral Recall
4 Force of Will Pact of Negation
4 Manamorphose
4 Dark Rituals

Sorcery [13]

1 Mindtwist
2 Tendrils of Agony
2 Grapeshot
4 Duress
1 Timetwister
1 Tinker
1 Channel Dropped for Imperial seal
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Kaervek's Torch Dropped for Shattering Spree

Artifact [25]

1 Black Lotus
4 Chrome Mox
4 Jeweled Amulet
1 Kark Clan Ironworks Vedalken Orrery
1 Lotus Petal
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mana Vault
1 Pithing needle
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Sol Ring
1 Chalice of the Void s]Spellbook
3 Serum Powder

The Primer
The core idea of this deck is leyline of anticipation storm, using kill conditions like grapeshot, tendrils,  with the back up plans of aggro and direct damage. The pluses to this deck, is that it is very fast, blindly so under the leyline potenial for upkeep kills. Immune to strip effects. The dangers to this deck are chalice @ 0, null rod, and artifact destruction.The following is an explanation of my choices.


Creatures

Elvish spirit guide
mana accel, going faster is a good thing can be used in an aggro strategy.

Salvage titan
Most, if not all of my deck is artifacts so casting him is easy, this becomes my plan b if i get locked out of everything else.
Synergy: With any artifact within the deck

Archbound Ravager
Low cost make it easy to cast, fuels storm count too.
Synergy: With any artifact within the deck. However, the modular ability this has works well with the salvage titan
Dropped for Simian Spirit Guide

Enchantments

Leyline of Anticipation
Normally being on the draw is kinda a minus, since your turn will be affected by whatever was played before it. With this in play this makes being on the draw not matter, win or lose the roll, you still have an advantage. In addition to that it opens the door for explosive play, making denial cards like null rod, chalice, pithing needle and bargain based draw devastating, like Flash/Hulk. The draw back to this is knocks you down one card so your starting hand is 6 instead of 7 the other player gets the trade off is a very powerful ability to play on your opponents turn, and getting to draw on yours. What it isn't, card advantage. What it is, turn advantage.  Extremely synergistic with all cards.


Recycle
Made sense to use this since most of the things in the deck are 0-2 cost, so string drawing is possible in this setting. There are no lands so this puts me in a position of not drawing unplayable cards. It is true that it has the same cost as Yawgmoth's bargain. Furthering my choice is that it isn't really on anyone's radar of must counter cards, like bargain is.  Thus I will relegate the bargain to the sideboard, for more of a surprise tactic.

Artificer's Intuition
This is a way to find chalice or something else that is needed.

Instants

A. Recall
Auto include.

Force of will
Auto include, eats unused leylines

Manamorphose
mana accel, good for getting out of a recycle lock

Brainstorm
auto include

Mindtwist
this is strong without the leyline and devastating under it almost felt like an auto include.

Tendrils of Agony
auto include, since recycle is allows to draw and play continuously.

Grapeshot
same as tendrils.

Duress
a way to protect against force of will.

Timetwister
Auto include, hand reload is a good thing, powerful under the leyline.

Tinker
A tutor, My targets include arcbound, salvage titan, ironworks

Channel
mana accel, fueling the larger casting costs like recycle, ironworks, and possibly the fuel for a large torch.

Kaervek's torch
with the amount of mana at my disposal I thought to include it as another win condition. Great under leyline

Vampiric Tutor
auto include

Demonic Tutor
auto include

Artifacts

Black lotus/Moxen/Petal/Sol Ring/Mana crypt/Mana Vault
auto include, fuels storm count Chrome Mox eats unused copies of leyline

Jeweled amulet
fuels storm, smooths out mana needs.

Kark clan Ironworks
Included to eat artifacts for mana accel.
Pithing/Chalice
included to prevent the casting of null rod, and other threats to this deck, really good under leyline.

Serum Powder
included for better chances to get the leyline in the opening hand.

[Delha]

Preliminary suggestions, don't have time to respond in detail just now:
Add in Simian Spirit Guide and mainboard Shattering Sprees. Null Rod is an absolute beating, and you can't really be positive that you'll be able to stop it from hitting the table. Chalice @ 0 is a bit less painful, but still pretty painful.

I'd cut blue from the list. You don't have a high enough blue count to support FoW, and I suspect that your manabase can't reliably hit blue for the spells you've included.

Add Rits. They'll help you accelerate, and make your Chromes more reliable black sources. On that note, I'd swap the Recycle for Null Profusion, since BB probably becomes easier to hit that GG. Increase the number of these too, since they're your primary draw engine.

Cut Ravagers. 4xTitan is more than enough for a plan B.

[Killane]

i find this idea intresting, but there are still alot of issues, mostly with Mana.


your kill coditions require   or   or   . You have:

6   sources. You have 8 additional cards that caproduce   in theory, but 4 of them can only produce   if you already have either   or  , and the other 4 require you to remove a   card in hand, all of which are either kill conditions or conditional mana sources.

3 black sources. Again another 8, that are even less likely to produce  

3 Red sources, plus the 8.

you are relying on speed, so I'm not counting the Jeweled Amulets becuse you have to charge them and pass the turn.

You have no lands. You have no outs to Chalice at 0 apart from killing them turn 1 on the play. I would guess that you can do this less than 1% of the time with the current build, given the mana issues.

Why do you want to avoid lands? Lands are POWERFUL, especially basic lands. Strip Mine, a restricted card, is the only card that sees common play in Vintage that can kill basic lands (exceptions: Terrastodon, but most of the time if they get one of those to resolve you've lost anyways,  Emrakul, perhaps even more so since if he's killing your lands he's attacking, Angel of Despiar - again, if Dredge is Dread Returning, you're generally done). Yes they're a poor topdeck (sometimes), but fast combo doesn't really care. Look at an ANT build - You bascially have some tutors, a couple kill conditions, and a bunch of INSANE draw spells that will get you past those bad topdecks anyways.

I get Recycle is this deck. If you can resolve it, you will likely win, since you draw the whole deck. why not focus more on that and include more ways to find and resolve Recycle? If you have Cantrips like Manamorphose, you can include lands = to those Cantrips since it still makes stalling out post-recycle almost impossible.

12 blue cards to support FoW is not close to enough. You need 17, minimum, and 19 is commonly used in TPS builds as correct (it's even a non-trivial reaosn to pick Inky or Sphinx over DSC). If you want to win really faast, why not go with Pact of negation instead?

You don't need more than 4 kill conditions. Period. Mindtwist isn't worth it since that's all the gas you'll have and mana Vtage decks can win off a single topdeck. Kaervek's Torch is just bad, Banefire is better and that's still countered by the same thigns that counter Storm spells. Go with 2 Grapeshot, 2 Tendrils, or maybe a Brainfreeze instead of the Grapeshot.

FYI, the Storm spells don;t interact they way you think they do with Recycle. The copies aren't cast, they're put directly onto the stack, so you don;t get spells off Recycle from them.

BTW WTF is chalice of the Void doing in here? Don't play the one card that you least want to see accross the table.

Tinker-Robot is a more powerful plan B than 8 substandard Robots, and takes 7 less slots in your deck. With the amount of Mana you have have, hardcasting a sundering Titan isn't out of the question either.

I'd sugguest dropping the 8 robots for one Sphinx of the Steel Wind and one Sundering Titan, plus 6 lands. Then cut the Jeweled Amulets for 4 more lands. then cut Mind Twist, CoTV, and Torch for a 2nd Tendrils or a BrainFreeze and 2 more lands. finally, cut Channel for mind's Desire, cause it's INSANE.

that might be a shell worth testing. It's an intereting idea. i still don;t think it would be a good deck, certainly not as good as ANT and much inferior to GWSx and TPS as far as combo decks are concerned, but it's interesting.

much better effort than the fist list BTW. I think many of your choices are not good and the overall deck itself is quite bad, but I'm glad you took the suggestion of writing a pimer and thinkingings through.

FYI-My first decklist in a Vintage forum, many years ago, received a similar response. this is a HARD format to innovate in. Kudos for trying.

[waffles]

i find this idea intresting, but there are still alot of issues, mostly with Mana.


your kill coditions require   or   or   . You have:

6   sources. You have 8 additional cards that caproduce   in theory, but 4 of them can only produce   if you already have either   or  , and the other 4 require you to remove a   card in hand, all of which are either kill conditions or conditional mana sources.

3 black sources. Again another 8, that are even less likely to produce  

3 Red sources, plus the 8.

you are relying on speed, so I'm not counting the Jeweled Amulets becuse you have to charge them and pass the turn.

You have no lands. You have no outs to Chalice at 0 apart from killing them turn 1 on the play. I would guess that you can do this less than 1% of the time with the current build, given the mana issues.

Why do you want to avoid lands? Lands are POWERFUL, especially basic lands. Strip Mine, a restricted card, is the only card that sees common play in Vintage that can kill basic lands (exceptions: Terrastodon, but most of the time if they get one of those to resolve you've lost anyways,  Emrakul, perhaps even more so since if he's killing your lands he's attacking, Angel of Despiar - again, if Dredge is Dread Returning, you're generally done). Yes they're a poor topdeck (sometimes), but fast combo doesn't really care. Look at an ANT build - You bascially have some tutors, a couple kill conditions, and a bunch of INSANE draw spells that will get you past those bad topdecks anyways.

I get Recycle is this deck. If you can resolve it, you will likely win, since you draw the whole deck. why not focus more on that and include more ways to find and resolve Recycle? If you have Cantrips like Manamorphose, you can include lands = to those Cantrips since it still makes stalling out post-recycle almost impossible.

12 blue cards to support FoW is not close to enough. You need 17, minimum, and 19 is commonly used in TPS builds as correct (it's even a non-trivial reaosn to pick Inky or Sphinx over DSC). If you want to win really faast, why not go with Pact of negation instead?

You don't need more than 4 kill conditions. Period. Mindtwist isn't worth it since that's all the gas you'll have and mana Vtage decks can win off a single topdeck. Kaervek's Torch is just bad, Banefire is better and that's still countered by the same thigns that counter Storm spells. Go with 2 Grapeshot, 2 Tendrils, or maybe a Brainfreeze instead of the Grapeshot.

FYI, the Storm spells don;t interact they way you think they do with Recycle. The copies aren't cast, they're put directly onto the stack, so you don;t get spells off Recycle from them.

BTW WTF is chalice of the Void doing in here? Don't play the one card that you least want to see accross the table.

Tinker-Robot is a more powerful plan B than 8 substandard Robots, and takes 7 less slots in your deck. With the amount of Mana you have have, hardcasting a sundering Titan isn't out of the question either.

I'd sugguest dropping the 8 robots for one Sphinx of the Steel Wind and one Sundering Titan, plus 6 lands. Then cut the Jeweled Amulets for 4 more lands. then cut Mind Twist, CoTV, and Torch for a 2nd Tendrils or a BrainFreeze and 2 more lands. finally, cut Channel for mind's Desire, cause it's INSANE.

that might be a shell worth testing. It's an intereting idea. i still don;t think it would be a good deck, certainly not as good as ANT and much inferior to GWSx and TPS as far as combo decks are concerned, but it's interesting.

much better effort than the fist list BTW. I think many of your choices are not good and the overall deck itself is quite bad, but I'm glad you took the suggestion of writing a pimer and thinkingings through.

FYI-My first decklist in a Vintage forum, many years ago, received a similar response. this is a HARD format to innovate in. Kudos for trying.

Number one thing about recycle/null profusion, is that drawing into two lands twice is a very bad thing, and i cant play lands on their upkeep, thus it slows the whole thing down. without the leyline, its not as bad since i can play 1 land but still drawing another land on that play is still bad.  The point was to minimize the dead cards in my hand at any given time. I know that storm doesnt interact that way with recycle, but the rest of the deck does.  About chalice, in this deck it makes sense to me because with leyline online it can be responded to with anything that is in hand moxen,  duress, etc... thus boosting storm by one. With the Leyline offline it isnt as good, but still can be pitched to the intution. Saw the light, spellbook is better in this slot.

Preliminary suggestions, don't have time to respond in detail just now:
Add in Simian Spirit Guide and mainboard Shattering Sprees. Null Rod is an absolute beating, and you can't really be positive that you'll be able to stop it from hitting the table. Chalice @ 0 is a bit less painful, but still pretty painful.

I'd cut blue from the list. You don't have a high enough blue count to support FoW, and I suspect that your manabase can't reliably hit blue for the spells you've included.

Add Rits. They'll help you accelerate, and make your Chromes more reliable black sources. On that note, I'd swap the Recycle for Null Profusion, since BB probably becomes easier to hit that GG. Increase the number of these too, since they're your primary draw engine.

Cut Ravagers. 4xTitan is more than enough for a plan B.

I if i were to cut the blue, where would i pitch the unused leylines? Are the Chrome Moxes enough for that purpose?

[BruiZar]

I can't give any concrete feedback today but will do so this weekend. I just wanted to give my compliments to Waffles for taking the time to write out a much more thorough and analytical decklist/mini primer.

Good job!

[waffles]

I can't give any concrete feedback today but will do so this weekend. I just wanted to give my compliments to Waffles for taking the time to write out a much more thorough and analytical decklist/mini primer.

Good job!

Thank you, i am still trying to figure out how to solve the mana issues killane pointed out; without adding in lands.

[Delha]

Thank you, i am still trying to figure out how to solve the mana issues killane pointed out; without adding in lands.

Honestly, the is that you're being too scared of hitting double lands, and stalling out. Keep the number low enough, and you really shouldn't have a problem with them.

Try this: Add four lands to the deck, deal youself a hand of three cards or so (we'll just arbitrarily pick that as the number of cards it took to get your Null Profusion into play, then start flipping off the top. See how many cards down you tend to get before seeing a second land. I suspect you'll consistently cycle a very healthy chunk of your deck before then.

[M.Solymossy]

I can't give any concrete feedback today but will do so this weekend. I just wanted to give my compliments to Waffles for taking the time to write out a much more thorough and analytical decklist/mini primer.

Good job!

Thank you, i am still trying to figure out how to solve the mana issues killane pointed out; without adding in lands.

Another option you have is to play Green lands and use Land Grants.

[waffles]

I can't give any concrete feedback today but will do so this weekend. I just wanted to give my compliments to Waffles for taking the time to write out a much more thorough and analytical decklist/mini primer.

Good job!

Thank you, i am still trying to figure out how to solve the mana issues killane pointed out; without adding in lands.

Another option you have is to play Green lands and use Land Grants.

that just might work, i am concidering dropping the black and bolstering the green but that will cause me to lose the tutors, just dont know if thats justifiable. Ill post another alternate list when i get some time.