GenCon Indy 2010 Results Thread

[Troy_Costisick]

I know I'll take flack for saying this, but that's probably the best Fish deck ever built.

It barely tutors to assemble its combo.  Instead, it just draws cards and disrupts the opponent's strategy winning after its disruption engine turns sideways enough times.  I'm going to call it (perhaps prematurely): Noble Fish is dead and this thing has taken its place.

Actually, Duck, I'd have to say you're right on here. 

[CHaPuZaS]

(...) it just draws cards and disrupts the opponent's strategy winning after its disruption engine turns sideways enough times.

I've been designing and playing Vintage decks with this idea since 2008. An enormous quantity of people have flawed me for defending this positive thinking, even though the results have been extremely positive. This is translated, at least for Spain, as me being (most times) the only player playing CHaPuZaS' Gush Painters, Tezzcast and The CHaPuZaS Solution, Top8ing and winning many times (4 out of each 7 tournaments) but without voice enough to convince people to advance/evolve this kind o thinking.

I'm far convinced that this (While not being the only way to go) is a strategy as strong as playing a deck full of tutors, and this is a matter so important in Vintage that it's worth investigating/discussing it.

[AmbivalentDuck]

I'm far convinced that this (While not being the only way to go) is a strategy as strong as playing a deck full of tutors, and this is a matter so important in Vintage that it's worth investigating/discussing it.

It really already has been.  Many times.  The only thing this deck does that's "new" is focus on drawing/disrupting while still running broken.  It's strictly better than Rod Fish because it doesn't run terrible cards like Null Rod.  Like I keep saying in my goblins thread, would you rather hard cast Null Rod as your entire turn 2 or play out a bunch of Moxen and find something that will actually kill them turn 1, playing said threat turn 2?

I'm also going to come out and say it right now: this deck's natural predators are Earwig Squad, Lightning Crafter (kill both Jace and critters), and Gempalm Incinerator.  I predict a Stax, Ichorid, and nuFish meta with goblins taking the place of traditional fish.  I don't think traditional Tez is optimal in the new meta because heavy tutoring has a hard time competing with heavy card advantage, acceleration strategies being equal.  Oath is questionable due to the white Leyline in Ichorid and nuFish's demonstrated good matchup against it.

Another interesting thing: there's no valid restriction target in this deck.  If it proves long-term dominant, it's because the meta can't adjust to attacking planeswalkers with creatures and/or killing creatures.  WotC would actually have to do format-scaping in that case...which would suck.

[chrispikula]

People are really strongly overreacting to this decklist in this thread.  The most important about thing about this deck is that it was being played by Owen and Bob. To try and draw too many conclusions from the fact that they met in the finals is an error, unless your conclusion is simply that those two guys are really good at Magic.

[M.Solymossy]

Bob made some mistakes based on not knowing the format, but those two were still the best players in that room. 

Those who don't know:  Owen also split the Block Championships AND the Midwest Masters.  He literally lost two matches all weekend.


and @ ADuck:  I disagree with your argument about nothing being restriction worthy in the deck.  I played a very similar deck to 13th (I may or may not post a report, idk yet) and I can tell you i ALWAYS wanted to draw Jace, the Mindsculptor.  That guy won me SO many games, and I used all 4 of his abilities a good amount of times.  I always wanted more.

[Neonico]

Both Gifts and Facts are restricted, and Jace isn't far to be as good as both of them.
It should be on the watch list IMHO.

But to be honest, the fact that Ochoa's list, or in Europe the Team Pataners JAcerator list, start to win tournaments isn't only because of Jace the mindsculptor, but more because it's sideboarded game 1 against the most dominant deck in the format, and well built to fight all of his natural predators (such as fish). ANd i think that the player level does allmost nothing in that equation. I tested MUd against Ochoa's list alot and the matchup was really in Ochoa's list favor.

[AmbivalentDuck]

@ ADuck:  I disagree with your argument about nothing being restriction worthy in the deck.  I played a very similar deck to 13th (I may or may not post a report, idk yet) and I can tell you i ALWAYS wanted to draw Jace, the Mindsculptor.  That guy won me SO many games, and I used all 4 of his abilities a good amount of times.  I always wanted more.

The problem is that he's a bad Concentrate if you can actually attack him.  If Jace looks restriction worthy, it's because other decks aren't following suit and running utility creatures that turn sideways.

Also, someone needs to test the hypothesis: "The deck pretty much folds to T2 Jund with some artifact mana in the manabase."  In particular, the vintage unplayable Bloodbraid Elf looks like a beating.  What are they going to do, bounce it?

[M.Solymossy]

I disagree with Ochoa's list being in their favor against Mud, and hopefully Owen will chime in as he knows better than I do about that list.

I also disagree with Jace not being as good as fact or gifts.  The winning list didn't run Gifts or Fact.

I myself didn't run Gifts, Fact, Thirst, OR Merchant Scroll, instead going with 2x Jace. I didn't miss any of them.  

Both Gifts and Fact would definitely be more playable if they were unrestricted, but Jace unrestricted is better than 95% of the other cards you can play

[M.Solymossy]

  In particular, the vintage unplayable Bloodbraid Elf looks like a beating.  What are they going to do, bounce it?

They'll Mana Drain it just like Goblin Ringleader, and kill you.   (that was not a flame, just a joke about one of your past comments).

[AmbivalentDuck]

Having played Jund most of twice, I can report that a Drained Bloodbraid still gives you whatever you cascade into.  If it dumps something like...say...a creature with more than 2 for a butt, this could be a problem for a deck that relies on planeswalkers and Bob.

If it does in fact turn out to be a problem, it's a good reason to board Flametongue Kavu (or something like it) against the deck.  My suspicion is that anything with a butt and a relevant CIP ability is a problem.

[TopSecret]

The problem with directly porting Standard Jund is that you get destroyed by the decks that just to go broken and win fast.

A sizable chunk of any Vintage metagame will lose to absolute horseshit that's 90% Standard legal. It's been this way for a while.

The problem isn't beating a subset of the metagame. It's having good matchups across the board with few, if any, exceptions.

[AmbivalentDuck]

I completely agree, Jund would be terrible.  The question is more along the lines of, "In the best case scenario, do butts and CIP abilities on creatures actually work against nuFish?"  I'm pretty sure that Bloodbraid Elf, Earwig Squad, Trike, and Flametongue Kavu will give this deck fits.

[The Atog Lord]

Guys, please don't derail this thread into a discussion of whether Vintage Jund is viable.

[Adan]

When will we be able to see the whole Top8? The winning deck alone won't tell me anything about the meta or the current metagame trends/cardchoices of certain decks. Just sayin'

[M.Solymossy]

When will we be able to see the whole Top8? The winning deck alone won't tell me anything about the meta or the current metagame trends/cardchoices of certain decks. Just sayin'

There was a TON of Oath, Confidant Tezz, and MUD around, with Dredge kicking a LOT in the prelims but not much in the actual main event.

[conboy31]

People could probably help fill in the rest.  I know the t8 roughly consisted of:

2 Jace Ubgr control
2 Storm (tps or ant?)
1 MUD

[conboy31]

and @ ADuck:  I disagree with your argument about nothing being restriction worthy in the deck.  I played a very similar deck to 13th (I may or may not post a report, idk yet) and I can tell you i ALWAYS wanted to draw Jace, the Mindsculptor.  That guy won me SO many games, and I used all 4 of his abilities a good amount of times.  I always wanted more.

I agree with this.

My 2 losses were to Coss (12th) and Soly (13th) with Jace BAPTIZING me in both loses.

[M.Solymossy]

My 2 losses were to Coss (12th) and Soly (13th) with Jace BAPTIZING me in both loses.

Yeah, jace was a beast.


And yes, I won 3 games including one against Conley Woods with Jace's Ultimate by using Fateseal @ value.

[honestabe]

My 2 losses were to Coss (12th) and Soly (13th) with Jace BAPTIZING me in both loses.

Yeah, jace was a beast.


And yes, I won 3 games including one against Conley Woods with Jace's Ultimate by using Fateseal @ value.

Hooray for dreamcrushing pros

[AmbivalentDuck]

Guys, please don't derail this thread into a discussion of whether Vintage Jund is viable.

New thread made http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=40966.msg567682#msg567682

[Leooooh]

Does anyone know if the top8 deck lists have already been released?

[Nehptis]

The tempo of just the creatures/walker cards alone in the winning deck is so good.  And in the hands of an expert it's almost unstoppable.

It reminds me of when I used to face expert "The Deck" players back in the day.  No matter how well I played or what non-Mirror deck I brought, the best "the Deck" players would beat me with their skill and relying on "The Deck's" tempo every time!

Dark Confidant-->Trygon Predator-->Jace...wow!

[Juggernaut GO]

People are really strongly overreacting to this decklist in this thread.  The most important about thing about this deck is that it was being played by Owen and Bob. To try and draw too many conclusions from the fact that they met in the finals is an error, unless your conclusion is simply that those two guys are really good at Magic.

I don't know about that.  I watched the semi finals of bob vs the workshop player, and it was a complete blowout because the shop player completely punted both games.  Seeing that just leads me to be skeptical of the play skill of the rest of the workshop players at this event.  They are both obviously good at magic, but the deck is still weak. It absolutely folds to tangle wire, and any resolved smokestack is pretty much game over.  Trygon predator is too slow to answer a turn 1 stack or a turn 2 tangle wire w/strip effects.  The deck also has no answer to chalice at 1 other then lucksacking its way into a trygon.

[Leooooh]

I completely agree with JuggernautGo......That semi final match was pretty awful......The shop player had a great chance to lock or generate a good clock to his oponent more than once, and screwed with everything. Lost 2-0 to a deck that has unstable manabase.

As menedian said in the live coverage, there are few people that know how to play workshop decks. It isn't a deck played as the mana drain, and most people don't know the correct order of deploying lock pieces.

Too bad.....As a shop player, i was expecting it to win.

[Rome]

I was in top 8 with 5 c stax I lost 5 games all day with 4 being to Owen.

[Iron_Chef]

I placed 12th, and the Oath list I played felt unbeatable all day.  Both of my losses (Round 4 vs. 5c stax and Round 7 feature match vs maher) were due to mistakes I made, and not the list itself.  Both of those matches were mine to win or lose, depending on what I did.  Congrats to everyone who did well at Champs, especially "locals" Ryan Glackin and Vinnie Forino.

-Nick

[Rome]

I had really good drawls agaisnt you for sure Nick

[Razvan]

The shop player that made top 4 was Michael Gouthro. It was a combination of being tired and not having played in like a year. Give the man a break .

[Odd mutation]

I placed 12th, and the Oath list I played felt unbeatable all day.  Both of my losses (Round 4 vs. 5c stax and Round 7 feature match vs maher) were due to mistakes I made, and not the list itself.  Both of those matches were mine to win or lose, depending on what I did.  Congrats to everyone who did well at Champs, especially "locals" Ryan Glackin and Vinnie Forino.

-Nick

Would you mind sharing your decklist? I'm building my Oath list anew, so I'm always looking for inspiration...

Thanks,

Robrecht

[Leooooh]

The shop player that made top 4 was Michael Gouthro. It was a combination of being tired and not having played in like a year. Give the man a break .

Agreed...Being in the Top 4 with a stop of almost one year is amazing. Congrats. My bad!!!

Rome, would you mind sharing your 5c Stax build???

I heard that a MonoR stax made the top 8...Is it true???
Who was the guy???