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Author Topic: The Dark Times Primer  (Read 146724 times)
2nd_lawl
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« Reply #120 on: October 26, 2010, 11:56:29 am »

This is my current list with the new anti-shop sideboard that seems to be working fairly well:
4 Wasteland
3 Dark Depths
2 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Strip Mine
11 Swamp
4 Dark Confidant
4 Vampire Hexmage
1 Necropotence
4 Dark Ritual
4 Leyline of the Void
4 Duress
4 Thoughtseize
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Imperial Seal
1 Demonic Consultation
1 Null Rod
3 Diabolic Edict
1 Helm of Obedience
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Lotus Petal
1 Mox Jet
1 Black Lotus
1 Yawgmoth's Will

SB:
2 emissary of despair
2 ghost quarter
3 Null rod
1 darkblast
2 yixlid jailer
1 trinisphere
1 engineered explosives
1 snuff out
1 Pithing Needle
1 mana crypt (white bordered Spanish of course)

Sometime soon I will be writing a "suppliment" to the primer with explanations about the changes (especially why I no longer like sadistic sacrament), and with more in depth explanations about how to play with the deck.  My major frustration with the deck is this: Every time I have watched other people play the deck I have vehemently disagreed with key plays, especially how they use the tutors.  I know that this is somewhat of a "budget" deck and that perhaps that means it attracts "budget" players for lack of a better term, but it IS a difficult deck to play, and it is frustrating as the deck's designer to watch people misplay themselves to losses with it.  Im not trying to be elitist, im trying to be honest and help people who want to win with these cards.
« Last Edit: November 01, 2010, 12:47:39 pm by 2nd_lawl » Logged

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« Reply #121 on: October 26, 2010, 01:18:01 pm »

As a lover of TPS, I can unfortuantely say that Storm combo is pretty much the nut low right now unless your meta is for some reason devoid of the Shop infestation that is everywhere else. While Dark Times is not a "Shopkiller", it does have a much better matchup then Storm based decks do.



I would totally agree that Storm and TPS are having a difficult time right now.  Dark Times does have a better Shop matchup especially using Gate to Phyrexia and Bitterblossom post SB.

Are you joking? TPS has an infinitely easier time with "Good" MUD lists than Dark Times. Dark Times runs almost 0 artifact acceleration so it'll never get to the 2-3 mana required for effective win cons and hate. TPS has all the moxen so getting to hurkyl's mana under Lodestone and spheres is not nearly as hard. That said, the match-up isn't great for either deck but TPS >>>>> Dark Times. I've piloted both at large tournaments and Dark Times is just the huge dog in that match-up as of now. Ask Max. He'll say the same thing.

-Storm
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« Reply #122 on: October 26, 2010, 01:42:27 pm »

As a lover of TPS, I can unfortuantely say that Storm combo is pretty much the nut low right now unless your meta is for some reason devoid of the Shop infestation that is everywhere else. While Dark Times is not a "Shopkiller", it does have a much better matchup then Storm based decks do.



I would totally agree that Storm and TPS are having a difficult time right now.  Dark Times does have a better Shop matchup especially using Gate to Phyrexia and Bitterblossom post SB.

Are you joking? TPS has an infinitely easier time with "Good" MUD lists than Dark Times. Dark Times runs almost 0 artifact acceleration so it'll never get to the 2-3 mana required for effective win cons and hate. TPS has all the moxen so getting to hurkyl's mana under Lodestone and spheres is not nearly as hard. That said, the match-up isn't great for either deck but TPS >>>>> Dark Times. I've piloted both at large tournaments and Dark Times is just the huge dog in that match-up as of now. Ask Max. He'll say the same thing.

-Storm

The only Workshop lists I Really fear are the ones that are just serum powdering into lodestone.  If your opponent is fucking around with metalworker welder or anything like that you will probably win.  The match is still winnable anyway especially with the new board. I wouldnt consider the deck a bad choice on the presence of workshops alone, I would consider it a bad choice if all the workshop decks start with 4 powder and 13 spheres (although thorn of amethyst is actually terrible against us).  The key to the shop match up is aggressive Mulligan and LOTS of sideboard cards.  Even if we are only 35% to matchwin against the most dangerous builds of shops (which is what I think it is about) those builds only compromise 1/3 to 1/2 of all the shop decks that people play(again if you see your opponent fucking around with welders or metalworkers, then you are in good shape) and the shop decks themselves only comprise around 30% of the meta.  As the blue decks bend more and more out of shape to fight shops (with cards like natures claims and trygon preds main that are virtual Blanks)  You make up that % against the blue decks who are worse and worse equipped to fight you, for example nobody plays cards like repeal anymore in their jace decks, all of that stuff has been cut for claims and other anti-shop and anti-morror tech.

  Im happy to take this to a tournament that is going to be:
30% shops(only 15% of which are going to be serum powder MUD),
25% jace/vault,
10% other blue decks(oath,gush,storm, whatever else all of which are fine matchups),
15% dredge and
10% fish/random jank.
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« Reply #123 on: October 26, 2010, 01:59:20 pm »

As a lover of TPS, I can unfortuantely say that Storm combo is pretty much the nut low right now unless your meta is for some reason devoid of the Shop infestation that is everywhere else. While Dark Times is not a "Shopkiller", it does have a much better matchup then Storm based decks do.



I would totally agree that Storm and TPS are having a difficult time right now.  Dark Times does have a better Shop matchup especially using Gate to Phyrexia and Bitterblossom post SB.

Are you joking? TPS has an infinitely easier time with "Good" MUD lists than Dark Times. Dark Times runs almost 0 artifact acceleration so it'll never get to the 2-3 mana required for effective win cons and hate. TPS has all the moxen so getting to hurkyl's mana under Lodestone and spheres is not nearly as hard. That said, the match-up isn't great for either deck but TPS >>>>> Dark Times. I've piloted both at large tournaments and Dark Times is just the huge dog in that match-up as of now. Ask Max. He'll say the same thing.

-Storm

The only Workshop lists I Really fear are the ones that are just serum powdering into lodestone.  If your opponent is fucking around with metalworker welder or anything like that you will probably win.  The match is still winnable anyway especially with the new board. I wouldnt consider the deck a bad choice on the presence of workshops alone, I would consider it a bad choice if all the workshop decks start with 4 powder and 13 spheres (although thorn of amethyst is actually terrible against us).  The key to the shop match up is aggressive Mulligan and LOTS of sideboard cards.  Even if we are only 35% to matchwin against the most dangerous builds of shops (which is what I think it is about) those builds only compromise 1/3 to 1/2 of all the shop decks that people play(again if you see your opponent fucking around with welders or metalworkers, then you are in good shape) and the shop decks themselves only comprise around 30% of the meta.  As the blue decks bend more and more out of shape to fight shops (with cards like natures claims and trygon preds main that are virtual Blanks)  You make up that % against the blue decks who are worse and worse equipped to fight you, for example nobody plays cards like repeal anymore in their jace decks, all of that stuff has been cut for claims and other anti-shop and anti-morror tech.

  Im happy to take this to a tournament that is going to be:
30% shops(only 15% of which are going to be serum powder MUD),
25% jace/vault,
10% other blue decks(oath,gush,storm, whatever else all of which are fine matchups),
15% dredge and
10% fish/random jank.

There must be a lot of bad pilots out there for you to be experiencing much Metalworker. ALL the good lists run between 11-13 spheres (usually they drop Thorn from 4 of to 2 of first so don't expect them to help you by dropping anything else) They also run 4 Wire and 4 Shops and all of those cards hurt. You shouldn't be seeing many Worker builds if you are in a meta of experienced Shop pilots like the NYSE area meta is. Whether or not Powders are in there they will be running full spheres and that will usually give them the HUGE edge vs. you. Cleaning up the noobs who run janky Worker/Staff/Forgemaster builds does not count in these % Max. Be honest with yourself.

-Storm
« Last Edit: October 26, 2010, 02:16:42 pm by Stormanimagus » Logged

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« Reply #124 on: October 26, 2010, 02:20:39 pm »

I haven't played in the NYSE meta in a few months, But I have played in new england where there are terrible shop lists everywhere.  Again, it barley even matters,  im not going to not play a deck because I know i probably wont beat the 3 good shop piliots who are there, especially when there are plenty of bad ones who I dont mind playing.  The matchup is acceptable with aggressive Mulligans (which you should be doing anyway with this deck) Im 2-2 against shops in real matches since I changed the SB, and that is acceptable to me since the jace matchup keeps getting better and better.

Edit:
Also the evidence contradicts what you are saying about the NYSE Meta:
The last 2 NYSE events:
ana Drains:

Elephant Oath – 2
Titan Oath – 1
Jace Control – 1
Cobra Vault – 1

Workshops:

5CStax – 1
Ravager Affinity – 1

Bazaars:

Dredge – 2

Null Rods:

Noble Fish – 1
B/U/W Fish w/Vault – 1
Suicide Black – 1
BUG Fish – 1
GAT – 1

Rituals:

Bob Tendrils – 1
Gush Storm – 1


AND

Mana Drains

U/R Control: 1
Jace Control: 9
4C Tezzeret: 1
Landstill: 2
Elephant Oath: 4
Keeper: 1
Bomberman: 2

Workshops

Espresso Stax: 9
Mono-Red Shops: 1
Two Card Monte: 1
MUD Aggro: 1

Null Rods

Noble Fish: 3
U/B Fae: 1

Bazaars

Dredge: 6

Rituals/Combo

Bob TPS: 1
Belcher: 1
Dark Times: 1
TPS: 1


In the first(most recent) there are actually just 0 players on serum powder mud, and in the 2nd, shops only comprised 26% of the meta, with 20% of them being serum powder MUD. Again even if you consider that match-up to be a 35% dog, It is more than balanced by the large amount of dredge and jace decks, which not only are great matchups actually keep the shop decks out of the top 8.  This 2nd tournament represents the high ebb of serum powder MUD lists (imo) as many players are looking to either fuck around with scars cards (which is good for dark times) or switch to gush decks (which is good for dark times). 
In my opinion the most serious threat to the deck is not workshops but bad pilots.
« Last Edit: October 26, 2010, 02:50:42 pm by 2nd_lawl » Logged

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« Reply #125 on: November 01, 2010, 02:24:26 am »

Quote
SB:
2 emissary of despair
2 ghost quarter
3 Null rod
1 darkblast
2 yixlid jailer
1 trinisphere
1 engineered explosives
1 snuff out
1 mana crypt (white bordered Spanish of course)

it seems that you missed a card in sb. could you please tell us which is?
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« Reply #126 on: November 01, 2010, 12:08:10 pm »

4 Wasteland
3 Dark Depths
2 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Strip Mine
11 Swamp
4 Dark Confidant
4 Vampire Hexmage
1 Necropotence
4 Dark Ritual
4 Leyline of the Void
4 Duress
4 Thoughtseize
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Imperial Seal
1 Demonic Consultation
1 Null Rod
3 Diabolic Edict
1 Helm of Obedience
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Lotus Petal
1 Mox Jet
1 Black Lotus
1 Yawgmoth's Will

SB:
2 emissary of despair
2 ghost quarter
3 Null rod
1 darkblast
2 yixlid jailer
1 trinisphere
1 engineered explosives
1 snuff out
1 mana crypt (white bordered Spanish of course)

I'd like to think that I'm becoming a better pilot with this deck, and I'll definitely give your modifications above a run. It seems like you have opted to remove some of your anti-Oath cards though. Is this due to a shift in your meta? I'm definitely looking forward to reading your updated primer.
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« Reply #127 on: November 01, 2010, 12:47:19 pm »

Quote
SB:
2 emissary of despair
2 ghost quarter
3 Null rod
1 darkblast
2 yixlid jailer
1 trinisphere
1 engineered explosives
1 snuff out
1 mana crypt (white bordered Spanish of course)

it seems that you missed a card in sb. could you please tell us which is?

sorry the missing card is pithing needle (also white bordered, of course)
Ill fix it in the other post
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« Reply #128 on: November 01, 2010, 12:50:28 pm »


I'd like to think that I'm becoming a better pilot with this deck, and I'll definitely give your modifications above a run. It seems like you have opted to remove some of your anti-Oath cards though. Is this due to a shift in your meta? I'm definitely looking forward to reading your updated primer.
Yes, It seems like Oath has a real hard time beating the Jace decks that are increasingly replacing blue cards with moe and more natures claims and trygon predators.  If the meta shifts back to oath, then the card that I would suggest putting back in (either in the board or the main) is phyrexian tower.
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« Reply #129 on: November 22, 2010, 02:49:15 pm »

Been awfully quiet around here.

A budget version of this deck made it to the finals at the dutch vintage championship. (no mox, lotus and seal)

I'll post the list here as soon as it comes online, but for what I could tell it was running:

4 chalice + 4 null rod

Didn't run the helmline combo (or the mox jet,imperial seal or black lotus

And it did play at least 1 tendrills as a backup plan.


Greetzzz,
Robin.

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« Reply #130 on: November 22, 2010, 06:20:45 pm »

I played this yesterday at Superstars.  Went 3-2 (lost to fish, beat the bye, lost to control slaver, beat fish, beat storm)


was nice as an opening 7 vs storm.

I made a huge blunder of a play mistake vs Fish, he had a wasteland on board, i had hexmage\depths on board (played depths after the wasteland), I imperial sealed for an answer and came up with.... another dark depths instead of a wasteland\strip\pithing needle.  Whoops.  Basic interaction of the deck I didn't grasp having never played it before.

I also lost vs control slaver, not knowing if he had a strip effect in his deck I comboed during his upkeep only to walk into a sower of temptation.  Which oddly enough I drew into a second combo the next turn to legend rule it away.  He ended up drawing a second sower to take my dark confidant and beat me down with 2 sowers and confidant.  rough.

I boarded out leyline helm 100% of game 2 and 3s.

I was playing 3 null rod main, 1 extirpate, 1 chains, 1 diabolic edict, no crucible. other than that i think it was the same maindeck as 2nd lawl's last one.  Seeing as our meta has about 0% dredge I don't know that the leylines main deck are necessary.  Ad nasuem tendrils or painter grindstone might be better?  Not sure.  I had a lot of fun playing the deck regardless.  Needing 5 mana to bring out the helm and activate it, 6-7 total to tutor it into your hand and cast it the same turn, 7-8 total to disrupt first makes it seem like an unlikely combo to come up, but maybe i'm missing something crucial about how to deal with it.

The trinisphere in the sideboard came in against storm, and ended up costing me the game as I couldn't get anything done either and he eventually vault keyed.  I dont think it was a mistake to play it (turn 1), just bad luck on my resulting draws.
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« Reply #131 on: November 23, 2010, 02:58:36 am »

I played this yesterday at Superstars.  Went 3-2 (lost to fish, beat the bye, lost to control slaver, beat fish, beat storm)


was nice as an opening 7 vs storm.

I made a huge blunder of a play mistake vs Fish, he had a wasteland on board, i had hexmage\depths on board (played depths after the wasteland), I imperial sealed for an answer and came up with.... another dark depths instead of a wasteland\strip\pithing needle.  Whoops.  Basic interaction of the deck I didn't grasp having never played it before.
these things happen, One thing you can do to avoid mistakes like this is something that I always do, intentionally 2nd or 3rd guess my tutors: before I tutor for anything I force myself to think of a different card or 2 too get, you will find frequently that your first instinct isn't always right, also If you have rituals in your hand/yard, always consider getting Yawgs will instead of a combo piece(and then replaying the tutor with will for the combo peice)

I also lost vs control slaver, not knowing if he had a strip effect in his deck I comboed during his upkeep only to walk into a sower of temptation.  Which oddly enough I drew into a second combo the next turn to legend rule it away.  He ended up drawing a second sower to take my dark confidant and beat me down with 2 sowers and confidant.  rough.
Here is a subtle yet important thing about deciding WHEN to combo: the downside of being wrong when your opponent has strip/waste, is much less than the downside of being wrong when your opponent has sower/jace.  If you wait, and your opponent has strip, you are still drawing live to Needle, 4x Waste, 1 Strip, and 4 Tutors.  If you combo on your turn and your opponent jace bounces it, or worse sowers it, you almost always lose.  Control slaver should actually be a great match-up for you, but the blue decks(and storm too) require the most practice, in general if you misplay with a duress or a tutor then you almost always lose, this deck "barley wins" more then any other deck i have ever played(Had a game against dredge on saturday where I won at 1 life with 2 cards left in my library)

I boarded out leyline helm 100% of game 2 and 3s.

I was playing 3 null rod main, 1 extirpate, 1 chains, 1 diabolic edict, no crucible. other than that i think it was the same maindeck as 2nd lawl's last one.  Seeing as our meta has about 0% dredge I don't know that the leylines main deck are necessary.  Ad nasuem tendrils or painter grindstone might be better?  Not sure.  I had a lot of fun playing the deck regardless.  Needing 5 mana to bring out the helm and activate it, 6-7 total to tutor it into your hand and cast it the same turn, 7-8 total to disrupt first makes it seem like an unlikely combo to come up, but maybe i'm missing something crucial about how to deal with it.

The trinisphere in the sideboard came in against storm, and ended up costing me the game as I couldn't get anything done either and he eventually vault keyed.  I dont think it was a mistake to play it (turn 1), just bad luck on my resulting draws.
If there are no dredge players in your meta, I would play dredge!  Seriously though yea that is fine, although I would play more edicts and Chains is bad for sure.  The trinisphere works best as a surprise card against storm,  and works best in conjunction with a dedicated wasteland hand or null rod, but the key to the strom match up for sure is playing your dresses correctly.


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« Reply #132 on: November 23, 2010, 03:11:39 am »

Sorry for the double post: but I thought I would do a little bit of an update:
Finally got to battle vintage at Blue Bell on saturday: went 4-2 thanks to a very very frustrating loss to affinity(vomit) involving several mulligans.  Beat MUD, Dredge, Jace Deck, Ad-Nauseum, Lost to MUD and affinity. Still had fun and made top 16 so i got my entry back in dealer credit, so it wasn't a total loss.  The Anti-shop sideboard plan is actually working quite well, As I was able to beat one MUD opponent after losing the die roll, EE, Ghost Quarter and Snuff Out were all instrumental to my victory.  I had some really intense games against both MUD and dredge, but I mostly blew out my jace and storm opponents, and got blown out by affinity.  As usual the MVP card of the day was Consultation.
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« Reply #133 on: November 23, 2010, 05:12:05 am »

2nd lawl: have you encountered any metalworker/hellkite MUD list? how is the matchup in there? i still find that the toughest match against us to be brown's MUD list. Looking forward for your new updated primer!
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« Reply #134 on: November 23, 2010, 10:12:00 am »

2nd lawl: have you encountered any metalworker/hellkite MUD list? how is the matchup in there? i still find that the toughest match against us to be brown's MUD list. Looking forward for your new updated primer!
Yes, The one on beat on Saturday had both metalkworker and Hellkite. The worst matchup is always going to be the mono-brown shop lists, but I still think the MW% against workshop decks in general as a whole is still 40-45% which I find acceptable given the percentages versus the blue decks and dredge.
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« Reply #135 on: November 23, 2010, 11:23:21 am »

As I said before, here's the decklist from the ducht vintage finals:

Gert Rammeloo – hexdepths second place
4 dark confidant
4 vampire hexmage
4 dark ritual
4 diabolic edict
1 demonic consulation
1 vampiric tutor
1 darkblast
4 duress
4 thoughtseize
1 Yawgmoth's will
1 tendrills of agony
1 demonic tutor
4 null rod
4 chalice of the void
1 necropotence
12 swamp
4 wasteland
2 urborg, tomb of yawgmoth
2 dark depths
1 strip mine

side
4 sadistic sacrement
4 leyline of the void
4 emissary of despair
2 massacre
1 perish

I'll see if I can get him to write a report, but for now this is the decklist.

Greetzzzz,
Robin.
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« Reply #136 on: November 24, 2010, 11:02:49 am »

2nd lawl: have you encountered any metalworker/hellkite MUD list? how is the matchup in there? i still find that the toughest match against us to be brown's MUD list. Looking forward for your new updated primer!
Yes, The one on beat on Saturday had both metalkworker and Hellkite. The worst matchup is always going to be the mono-brown shop lists, but I still think the MW% against workshop decks in general as a whole is still 40-45% which I find acceptable given the percentages versus the blue decks and dredge.

would you mind sharing your current list and sideboard?
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« Reply #137 on: November 24, 2010, 11:28:37 am »

Hi everyone. I'm Gert Rammeloo and I'll post a tournament report here. Credit where credit is due – this thread was what made me play Dark Times at the Dutch open. Anyway, I wasn't intending on writing a tournament report beforehand and I didn't take any notes, so the match reports will generally be pretty basic and superficial. (Edit: it turned out to be a lot longer than I expected)

First, some explanation on card choices: I don't own Imperial Seal, Mox Jet or Black Lotus. If I did, I would definitely play these cards.

I didn't run the Helm/Leyline combo main deck because I wanted to go all in on the hate cards. Incidentally, Null Rod served me very well.

I also believe that Tendrils is a more than capable secondary kill option, despite the budgetary nature of this deck and the general lack of brokenness. Chalice storms nicely (doesn't require any mana and several combine very well with Will), and a Dark Ritual or 2 go a long way. I also have tutors to get the missing cards, be that Dark Ritual or Demonic Tutor (I will often play Vampiric Tutor for Demonic Tutor, and then Demonic Tutor for both Will and Tendrils).

I thought a long time about whether or not to include Necropotence and it can be a drag to draw it early on, but it is just too powerful. It actually won me 2 games and never clogged any of my hands.

Anyway, on with the tournament report. Since I did not intend to write this and do not attend tournaments regularly, I do not know the names of any of my swiss round opponents. I hope this does not offend anybody. With regards to the top 8 players, their full decklists can be found here:

http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=41499.0

Round 1: Mono red aggro (2-1)

SB: -2 Chalice, +2 Massacre

This was a very intruiging deck. I think this guy ended up going 3-3 or something, so that was pretty good. Cards I remember being in this deck are

Blood Moon
Magus of the Moon
Ancient Tomb
Simian Spirit Guide
City of Traitors
Manic Vandal
Dead/Gone
Lightning Bolt
Umezawa's Jitte
Cunning Sparkmage
Figure of Destiny

I think he was packing 8 Moon effects total, so you can see how this matchup could be a little annoying. The first game I got a Marit Lage token on turn 3 I think without having encountered any hate.

The second game he got a Magus of the Moon out quickly with some smaller critters (2 Figure of Destiny I think). I didn't see Massacre and Diabolic Edict didn't succeed in getting rid of Magus of the Moon. His Figures of Destiny were growing quickly and beating me down.  

However I had played a Confidant early on and was getting close to a Tendrils kill. Near the end I had 9 lives and a Dark Confidant left, he had 2 4/4 Figure of Destiny and a Magus of the Moon and I was planning to block one FoD with Confidant, play a Vampiric Tutor to Will EoT and kill him with Tendrils in my turn.

However he drew a Cunning Sparkmage and I couldn't play Vampiric Tutor anymore (to be fair, he had a lot of topdecks).

The third game I Thoughtseize'd a Magus of the Moon and took it from there (Marit Lage kill). Luckily, I didn't see Blood Moon at all.


Round 2: MUD (0-2)

SB: - 1 Darkblast, -1 Tendrils, -2  Chalice, +4 Emissary of Despair

I always like to side out Tendrils in this matchup because let's face it, that's not happening. Darkblast is not very good here either.

Anyway, I didn't stand a chance this round.

He won the die roll and played a first turn Smokestack the first game. I had no Rituals or Chalices to get more than 1 permanent going and basically lost against this play. I wasted 2 or 3 Workshops but he got another one and killed me shortly after that.

Anyway I mulliganed to 6 and kept a pretty average hand. I was a little short on mana and he actually immediately stripped my Urborg. I didn't draw lands and the Wasteland I was holding couldn't get me to play any cards.


Round 3: G/W aggro (2-1)

SB: -3 Null Rod, +2 Massacre, +1 Perish

Cards this guy was running:

Aethersworn Canonist
Gaddock Teeg
Mother of Ruins
Root Maze
Swords to Plowshares
Pithing Needle (SB)
Qasali Pridemage (I'm actually not positive of this, but he had to run them, right?)

The first game he was mana screwed like nobody's business. He had just a single plains and I don't think he played any cards. He was really unlucky because he drew like 7 cards beyond the opening hands and didn't see any lands. I got a couple of StP's out of his hand and, belatedly, finished with a Marit Lage.

(My game was pretty bad as well, though nowhere near his).

Game 2, I played abysmally. He got a pair of Mother of Ruins out quickly and I didn't succeed in dealing any damage with a pair of Hexmages and a Dark Confidant. He got a Pithing Needle out so the Tendrils option was looking like my easiest way out. At one point I had all the pieces and was ready to blow a Vampiric Tutor at the end of his turn for Will or Demonic.

The interesting thing here is that I was holding a Null Rod this game (the single one that I had left MD) but didn't think to play it because I hadn't seen a single artifact yet. I just kept it in my hand even though I didn't use the mana for any other cards.

He still had just his plains and the turn after which I was planning on killing him he drew a Lotus Petal, and played a Canonist. Now I had to work around this creature and ended up losing a game I clearly should have won. I remember scooping afterwards even though I had a Massacre which would have cleared the board (I don't think it would have won me the game but I could have tried, at least).

Looking back on that game, I was amazed at how badly I played there. I think my hunger was getting to me here.

Game 3, he actually had his first good game (no mana screw) and we were trading blows. We ended up in a sort of stalemate and I drew a Necropotence. At this point I had a Dark Confidant in play, 2 cards in hand and 18 lives remaining.

I paid 8 lives (somewhat arbitrarily, though I could assume a 10-card hand would contain some dead cards like Chalice or excess lands). I drew some Edicts but the bunch was pretty bad overall. In addition, he Nature's Claim'd my Necro. However when it was my turn again I revealed a Will with Confidant and killed him on the spot (my graveyard had, among other things, a Demonic Tutor in it).

I actually had a Tendrils kill in 2 of the 3 games here, despite Canonist and Gaddock Teeg. I should've won this game sooner but was very glad to be able to finish it after all.

I'm not sure what changed after this game, but I played a lot more relaxed and generally better from here on out (though I hadn't made any mistakes, as far as I could see, before this game either).

Round 4: Counter-top (2-1)

SB: -4 Chalice, +4 Sadistic Sacrament

The only piece of power this guy was packing was Ancestral Recall, I think, so I decided to side out  Chalice of the Void. Game 1 I resolved a Necropotence and it just got me too many cards (hand disruption + combo assembly). I still wasn't sure what my opponent was playing exactly but I hadn't seen a lot of threats so I thought Sadistic Sacrament could be useful here.

Game 2 I resolved a Sacrament on turn 1 with a Ritual (he was tapped out). I took Jace, Inkwell Leviathan (Tinker didn't have other scary targets, just Liquimetal Coating) and Sower of Temptation.

His kill condition and this point was 4 Gorilla Shaman and 1 Sower of Temptation. There were 20 minutes so I felt like I could coast this one out to a slow 1-0 victory. However I don't like this sort of douchy stuff so I just kept playing like I would have otherwise.

He had a Counterbalance with a Sensei's Divining Top and had clearly taken control of the game (though still without any threats). Shortly afterwards he started eating my lands with Shaman/Liquimetal Coating (I didn't succeed in resolving a Null Rod). I played a Necropotence in a controllish fashion (going from 20 to 17 lives) and he played a Pithing Needle on it. I quickly conceded and we had a good 15 minutes left going in to the final game.

I decided to keep Sadistic Sacrament because I felt like it somewhat castrated my opponent. I resolved it again, picking the same targets. His other Sower of Temptation was in his hand (I had seen it with Duress or Thoughtseize, but was forced at that time to pick a different target).

I resolved a Hexmage and was beating him down with it. I had a Dark Confidant in my hand but didn't want him to take it with Sower so I kept it. He seemed reluctant to play his Sower on Hexmage but I figured he obviously would at some point, so I did want to drop extra threats.

As soon as I could, I dropped 2 Dark Confidants in the same turn (I knew from disruption that they would resolve). He played a Sower for Confidant, then in my turn I Darkblasted Sower twice. At that point I had 2 Dark Confidants and a Hexmage and I beat him down quickly.  


Round 5: MUD (2-0)

SB: -1 Darkblast, -1 Tendrils, -2 Chalice, +4 Emissary of Despair

I'm not sure what happened the first game. I think I wasted one of his Wastelands and got a Marit Lage out pretty quickly.

The next game I got an Emissary of Despair out on the first turn and it went all the way. I never missed a land drop which turned out to be necessary. My opponent dropped a Lodestone Golem on turn 3 I think, and the next turn he dropped another one but failed to attack with the first one. If he had done so, he would've won this match (which he quickly realized himself). His Tanglewire came just short of having me tap my Emissary.

Round 6:  ID into top 8.

Quarter Finals: Thomas Hendriks playing elves combo

SB: - 1 Tendrils, +1 Perish

I knew Thomas' deck very well – my brother plays it occasionally. I understand that Perish doesn't really stop this deck, however with Null Rod stopping Skullclamp and Duress/Thoughtseize against Glimpse of Nature I tend to force this deck into an aggro playstile.

What really won me this match though (both games) was Chalice with 1 counter on it. I resolved several just in case he would play a Viridian Shaman. The first game he played around the Chalice with Timberwatch Elf (he had a Quirion Ranger from earlier). I drew a Diabolic Edict, he sacrificed Quirion Ranger, he attacked with Timberwatch Elf and I blocked it with a Confidant.

He didn't find an answser to Chalice and I beat him down. The next game was similar except I got a Marit Lage out here.

Semi-finals: Steven van den Bulck playing Prototype MUD

SB: -1 Tendrils, -1 Darkblast, -2 Chalice. +4 Emissary of Despair

I wasn't familiar with this deck but Null Rod was a trooper here. Game 1 I disrupted him sufficiently and finished him off with a Marit Lage.

Game 2 he got out a pair of Golems quickly and trampled me.

Game 3 he was mana screwed. I think I had a Chalice out on 0 (not sure) and a Wasteland was his only land. I had a Wasteland, 2 Swamps and 2 Confidants in play  and he had just a Wasteland (I think, not 100% sure).

In my turn I reveal a Vampiric Tutor with Confidant. At that point I was thinking for a while what I should pick: Dark Depths (I had a Hexmage in my hand) or Null Rod. There was no way I could play the Vampiric Tutor and resolve Hexmage the same turn, so I decided to go for Null Rod and waste his Wasteland. This made me kill like 2 turns slower I think, but I had taken all direct threats from his hand with discard and he literally had no mana, so I didn't see him surving that.



Finals: David Martinez playing Madness

SB: -4 Null Rod, +4 Leyline of the Void

Props to David for this deck, very original and great all around. I was lucky to be done with my semi-finals relatively quickly and was able to see an entire game of David's semi-final, so I sort of had an idea of what I was up against. I did not like what I was seeing. From what I hear, David also played the finals of the Dutch open last year with a madness deck (though he lost then).

We both mulliganed and I kept a pretty sub-par hand. I had only 1 land. I resolved a Thoughtseize, and, retardedly, pick FoW over Mystical Tutor. Immediately after doing so, I realize he's going to cast Mystical Tutor for Life from the Loam EOT and strip lock me, which he did.

I don't think I would've stood a chance either way because I would still have been mana screwed, but I still should've picked Mystical Tutor. In fact, in retrospect, I'm not sure why he didn't respond to Thoughtseize by playing Mystical, though my memory may be a bit fuzzy here.

Game 2 I kept a hand with 2 Confidants (but no Leyline) and got some draw going.
The thing about David's deck is that it takes a while to start dealing damage. I had a nice little Confidant draw engine going, he was dealing some damage with a power 3 Tarmogoyf and a Bloodghast. I was getting low on life but assembling a Tendrils kill. I started pitching some creatures to Tarmogoyf and keeping Confidant to draw me into some Rituals/tutors etc (I had a Tendrils in hand). In this going back and forth, I drew 2 Thoughtseizes (which were useless because of my low life total) and I tried twice to get a Will going with Dark Ritual but these were Circular Logic'd (I heard he drew 2 Circular Logic and a FoW with a Recall).

So he drew some nice cards with Recall, but on the other hand he was unlucky not to draw a land sooner and kill me with another Bloodghast sitting in his graveyard. I felt I came pretty close this second game, but it definitely deserved to go to David all the same. Great deck.


 



« Last Edit: November 24, 2010, 12:51:47 pm by wake_of_destruction » Logged
sassfactor4
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« Reply #138 on: December 21, 2010, 01:17:25 am »

i "top 4'ed" an 11 man this weekend with dark times, and I must ask 2nd Lawl, what do you do in the face of chalice at 2?  My answer was "good game" and a handshake.

My crowing achievement was paying 30 mana to activate dark depths, and resolving marit lage 4 times in 2 games and ending both with over 30 life.
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Draw with bob
take 5 from force of will
draw lotus for turn.
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2nd_lawl
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« Reply #139 on: December 21, 2010, 04:31:14 am »

Engineered explosives. Its in the SB of my current list.  Its also performs a host of other neat tricks:
Kills empty tokens/zombies
can stop tidespout oath from comboing
kills spirit tokens, or if you are lucky oath itself
general mana denial duties
kills pithing needles
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RecklessEmbermage
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« Reply #140 on: December 21, 2010, 09:48:57 am »

Wake of destruction: Thanks for a well-written tournament report and congratulations with your finish! Would you happen to know where I could find Martinez' decklist?
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« Reply #141 on: December 21, 2010, 12:42:29 pm »

reckless - http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=41499.0

2nd_lawl - any updates on part 2 of your primer?  Very Happy
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« Reply #142 on: December 21, 2010, 01:58:27 pm »

reckless - http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=41499.0

2nd_lawl - any updates on part 2 of your primer?  Very Happy

Great cruzron. Thanks!
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Djinn
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« Reply #143 on: December 26, 2010, 12:34:22 am »

First time checking back here in a while...anyways, i think the chalice list is really interesting.  I'm surprised how well it did, is there any debate about which deck is better (chalice list vs non chalice list)? 
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Bosaapje
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« Reply #144 on: January 07, 2011, 08:15:07 pm »

Hi hi,

What do you think of this list:

Dark Times V1.0


Mana:

1 Lotus Petal
3 Dark Ritual
3 Dark Depths
1 Strip Mine
10 Swamp
2 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Wasteland

Kill:

1 Helm of Obedience
4 Leyline of the Void
4 Vampire Hexmage

Disruption:

4 Duress
4 Thoughtseize
1 Null Rod
1 Pithing Needle

Other stuff:

1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Grim Discovery
1 Extirpate
1 Necropotence
3 Bitterblossom
4 Dark Confidant
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Demonic Consultation
1 Demonic Tutor

Sideboard:

3 Null Rod
3 Pithing Needle
1 Trinisphere
2 Emissary of Despair
2 Yixlid Jailer
1 Engineered Plague
1 Darkblast
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Sadistic Sacrament


It's a pretty standard list, but I enjoy playing it. The only big thing that I didn't see in other lists (yet) is Grim Disco. I'm playing that because it's pretty nice to play Hexmage and Depths, sac Hexmage and return them back to your hand so if Marit Lage is gone, you can play it again instead of waiting for a Tutor/what ever.

The reason why I play unpowered is because I want to have the Lotus, Mox and Seal not proxied, so, until I've got them, I play unpowered.

Do you guys here have some advise or comments?


Cheers,

Maarten
« Last Edit: January 07, 2011, 08:19:31 pm by Bosaapje » Logged
overseer1234
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« Reply #145 on: January 08, 2011, 11:47:58 am »

Hi hi,

What do you think of this list:

Dark Times V1.0


Mana:

1 Lotus Petal
3 Dark Ritual
3 Dark Depths
1 Strip Mine
10 Swamp
2 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Wasteland

Kill:

1 Helm of Obedience
4 Leyline of the Void
4 Vampire Hexmage

Disruption:

4 Duress
4 Thoughtseize
1 Null Rod
1 Pithing Needle

Other stuff:

1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Grim Discovery
1 Extirpate
1 Necropotence
3 Bitterblossom
4 Dark Confidant
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Demonic Consultation
1 Demonic Tutor

Sideboard:

3 Null Rod
3 Pithing Needle
1 Trinisphere
2 Emissary of Despair
2 Yixlid Jailer
1 Engineered Plague
1 Darkblast
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Sadistic Sacrament


Maarten


Honnestly If you have to play this deck unpowered, I would kick the helmline plan and go for chalice, null rod, and a tendrills (I still do even with the helmline, gives random oops I win's).

Obviously you need the extra dark ritual if you want tendrills.

Normaly you should find a link to the decklist in this thread (it made finals at the dutch vintage champs...
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Bosaapje
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« Reply #146 on: January 08, 2011, 02:04:11 pm »

I want to try Unpowered first. If I want to play Tendril + Wil, I'll go for TPS or something like that. As I said, I'm going to run this list first, and then I'll add some power to it. I don't think it's too bad for the meta right now. Maybe I wouldn't reach to the top 1 at a big tournament, but that's okay for now. I've also got some other decks that need attention Smile.
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Djinn
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« Reply #147 on: January 08, 2011, 04:25:33 pm »

I want to try Unpowered first. If I want to play Tendril + Wil, I'll go for TPS or something like that. As I said, I'm going to run this list first, and then I'll add some power to it. I don't think it's too bad for the meta right now. Maybe I wouldn't reach to the top 1 at a big tournament, but that's okay for now. I've also got some other decks that need attention Smile.

You basically asked for input and then disagreed with it.  Overseer1234 is right, if you're going to play unpowered list, it makes no sense to not stop opponent's power from hitting the table.  You are just permitting your opponent to accelerate his mana faster than you are.  I'd support his suggestion to add chalices/nulls.  This doesn't mean you can't play helmline main deck, but the null rod and helm is quite dis-synergic.  I see no reason not to play 4 rituals.  This also gives you the tendrils secondary kill option with only 1 added card (the tendrils itself), freeing up other helmline spots for other cards like the chalices, nulls, or grim disco.  Whats the deal with the bitterblossoms?  Seems like they'd be pretty worthless in any matchup except shops, since the chances you attack someone to death before you could get a marit lage on the table seems pretty slim (the entire deck is designed to get out the 20/20 token, and were talking 7+ turns for the bitterblossoms to do 20 dmg, assuming none chump block or get killed).

Also, your argument against tendrils is pretty weak.  Dark times isn't TPS, and not playing the better secondary wincon because you "don't want to" is not a very compelling argument.  My 2 cents.
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Djinn
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« Reply #148 on: January 09, 2011, 12:11:45 am »

I'm also considering adding more nulls/chalices to 2nd lawls list.  Aside from dredge, 99% of other decks use at least 5 0cc artifacts (lotus, 3 mox, petal, but could also include crypt, 2 other mox), IMO dark times is not proactive enough against these cards. Thoughts?
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mijah
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« Reply #149 on: January 10, 2011, 11:03:26 pm »

I recently started to build/test this and played it at the Grudge match this past weekend. My thoughts were a shops heavy meta, but alas that was not quite the case. I saw Oath, Tezz x 2, and Belcher before I dropped to eat/trade/tichu and was not pleased with how the deck ran. I can post my list sometime, but for now it is MB and I wanted to keep it that way, but with the current state, the green splash is probably necessary to get rid of oath/spheres/CotV@2, etc. I played 2 Null Rod main and 2 in the side and was happy with the disruption it caused; chalice I am unsure about currently but I will have to play around with it. I am also tinkering with Gatekeeper main for an edict effect/bear that puts pressure with a Bob and/or Hexmage; worked at getting rid of a Sphinx/I was able to play it as a bear against Belcher (granted, I know that this is not a deck that I will see often).
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