The Dark Times Primer

[policehq]

Any other suggestions?  You get totally destroyed if a chalice @ 2 ever hits the table.

In my experience it hasn't been that big of a problem.  No shop player is going to blind chalice 2 you on the play game 1 and post board you have emissary.  You can also still helm them.  If you really absolutely feel you must have an out to chalice 2: Engineered explosives.

Good luck setting it to 2 in a mono black deck.  lol

Chalice of the Void has a converted mana cost of 0...

[vrl]

thank you 2nd lawl for your primer. it has been a long time since a mono black deck (archetype) appeared in top 8s. i posted in another forum too about this deck but i see here that the innovator himself is posting so i said i will give it a try. the community as well seems more intrigued to discuss about this deck. by the way thanks s.m. for your quick reply . i am looking forward hearing your opinions as i have seen you have participated to this forum too. well i think that these are enough.  lets go to the topic now. i have proposed the cut of emissary of despair but s.m. said the opposite. the same did 2nd lawl as i understand from his posts as it is a good play vs a chalice set at 2. i should playtest them.
Other Cards to Consider:
1.bojuka bog (as a 1 of as stormanimagus said)
2.cabal pit (as a 1 of instead of darkblast maybe? at this time it kills dark confidant, hierarch, oath tokens, welder and selkie. what do you believe? we can sacrifice time and design space for a removal like this that kills the creatures already mentioned in addition to pridemage and meddling mage which seem problematic when they name hexmage?)
3.fetches (djinn mentioned about a way to calculate fetching and "thinning". does anyone have the results to see if it works?)
4.ghost quarter (serves double duty vs dredge and mud so we can cut jailers to get some more space to the sb. and yes i know jailer is the best dredge hate  :wink:but perharps we can adjust the sb to reteain our advantage vs dredge and at the same time correlate the most difficult match up)
5.full set of bitterblossom (as above, double duty vs fish and mud)
6. dystopia vs oath and fish? or even
7. perish and massacre as a 1 of?
 thoughts? thank you for your time...

[DPCyric]

thank you 2nd lawl for your primer. it has been a long time since a mono black deck (archetype) appeared in top 8s. i posted in another forum too about this deck but i see here that the innovator himself is posting so i said i will give it a try. the community as well seems more intrigued to discuss about this deck. by the way thanks s.m. for your quick reply . i am looking forward hearing your opinions as i have seen you have participated to this forum too. well i think that these are enough.  lets go to the topic now. i have proposed the cut of emissary of despair but s.m. said the opposite. the same did 2nd lawl as i understand from his posts as it is a good play vs a chalice set at 2. i should playtest them.
Other Cards to Consider:
1.bojuka bog (as a 1 of as stormanimagus said)
2.cabal pit (as a 1 of instead of darkblast maybe? at this time it kills dark confidant, hierarch, oath tokens, welder and selkie. what do you believe? we can sacrifice time and design space for a removal like this that kills the creatures already mentioned in addition to pridemage and meddling mage which seem problematic when they name hexmage?)
3.fetches (djinn mentioned about a way to calculate fetching and "thinning". does anyone have the results to see if it works?)
4.ghost quarter (serves double duty vs dredge and mud so we can cut jailers to get some more space to the sb. and yes i know jailer is the best dredge hate  :wink:but perharps we can adjust the sb to reteain our advantage vs dredge and at the same time correlate the most difficult match up)
5.full set of bitterblossom (as above, double duty vs fish and mud)
6. dystopia vs oath and fish? or even
7. perish and massacre as a 1 of?
 thoughts? thank you for your time...

Dartkblast can be used to kill 2 toughness creatures as well you just have to hit them during your upkeep and then Dredge it back during your draw step and shoot the dude again. Darkblast is nice because it takes care of every Dark Confidant or other 1 toughness creatures your opponent might play in the long run and honestly I think it should see a lot more play in the format then it gets.

I like the idea of Ghost Quarter and I am really wondering if the meta is coming to a point where Ghost Quarter is playable.

Mishra's Factory seems like it could be good since you can block and trade it with Lodestone Golem, is a beat Jace can't bounce and it doesn't activate Oath.

[vrl]

the hardest matchup semms to be MUD. i made intensive playtesting using as sb material 4 emissary of despair and ghost quarter. these emissaries are beasts! when on the play i found that this matchup can be affordable. however i am afraid that we should  include ghost quarter if we want to have a chance when on the draw. this grants additional lands to play around the spheres and at most a great mana denial plan.
i playtested null rod too and in about 40 matches i rarely cast it. that happened because either i was already winning or i just couldnt cast spells. Chalice of the void on the other hand was a nice addition as i could cast it for 0 even when on the draw. i cant find a way to include it.
any other thoughts about adding 4 quater? and if so you find necessary to include crucible of worlds in the original decklist?
any other suggestions against this matchup. i am afraid when scars of mirrodin will be released mud will become even tougher to handle with a mono black deck.

[M.Solymossy]

If you're playing around the threat of spell pierce in this deck, you're going to lose a lot more often than you should.


Also:   If the shop player ISNT* casting Blind Chalice @ 2 right now, they're fucking retarded.   

[2nd_lawl]

If you're playing around the threat of spell pierce in this deck, you're going to lose a lot more often than you should.


Also:   If the shop player ISNT* casting Blind Chalice @ 2 right now, they're fucking retarded.   

What? G1 on the play no shop player is going to use his only chalice on 2 against an unknown opponent.  Chalice 0 + resistor is a much better play against random opponent.

[AmbivalentDuck]

That's questionable.  Shutting down Goyf, Bob, Vault, Oath, etc is pretty good.  Beside, Dark Times is kinda memorable when you're scouting.

[2nd_lawl]

That's questionable.  Shutting down Goyf, Bob, Vault, Oath, etc is pretty good.  Beside, Dark Times is kinda memorable when you're scouting.

No it isn't questionable. Chalice 0 + resistor is going to stop your opponent from building out.  Chalice 2 might do something, but it also might do nothing and you will get t1 trygoned. It seems insane to me to gamble when t1 Chalice 0 resistor is good vs every deck and turn 1 chalice 2 does is meh vs non-oath drain decks, bad vs other shop decks, is good vs dark times (and maybe fish), and also does nothing vs dredge.

[Bibendum]

0+resistor garuntees there not playing anything productive first turn, chalice on two blind opens you up to letting them recall drop moxen or drop trygon as was said earlier. Chalice on two is a fantastic play against most decks but outside of a few rare occasions blind 0+sphere will win out

[LotusHead]

1) Swamp, Swamp, Black Lotus, Leyline of the Void, Strip Mine, Wasteland, Vampiric Tutor.

Okay this one is a little strange, and really illustrates the importance of scouting. If they don't disrupt you this hand kills on turn 2, but is vulnerable to Spell Pierce and Force of Will.  It is also good vs Shops, as it beats t1 Lodestone. I think this is a snap keep vs Shops, Dredge and Storm (since it is also immune to Duress), but it is much much riskier vs a deck like Tezz, Oath or Fish.

It took me a few minutes to figure out how this could be a turn 2 kill.. For a primer, you should spell it out for us Shop/Drain/Gobbo/Storm/etc players.

[2nd_lawl]

Just Made t8 At the Grudge Match tournament with 74/75 of the list in the Original post. I might do a mini report later.

[Troy_Costisick]

Just Made t8 At the Grudge Match tournament with 74/75 of the list in the Original post. I might do a mini report later.

That would be great.  What card did you change?

[2nd_lawl]

Just Made t8 At the Grudge Match tournament with 74/75 of the list in the Original post. I might do a mini report later.

That would be great.  What card did you change?

-1 phyrexian tower in the SB for a Perish.  And then I played against oath twice and fish 0 times :/.  Went undefeated in the swiss anyway(only dropping 1 game) then got pared against MUD with maindeck Razormane masticore in the t8,  I vomited out loud.

[policehq]

Just Made t8 At the Grudge Match tournament with 74/75 of the list in the Original post. I might do a mini report later.

That would be great.  What card did you change?

-1 phyrexian tower in the SB for a Perish.  And then I played against oath twice and fish 0 times :/.  Went undefeated in the swiss anyway(only dropping 1 game) then got pared against MUD with maindeck Razormane masticore in the t8,  I vomited out loud.

Normally that's the case...

At least you can rest assured knowing that Phyrexian Tower wouldn't have helped you in that match. What would have?

[Troy_Costisick]

Just Made t8 At the Grudge Match tournament with 74/75 of the list in the Original post. I might do a mini report later.

That would be great.  What card did you change?

-1 phyrexian tower in the SB for a Perish.  And then I played against oath twice and fish 0 times :/.  Went undefeated in the swiss anyway(only dropping 1 game) then got pared against MUD with maindeck Razormane masticore in the t8,  I vomited out loud.

Normally that's the case...

At least you can rest assured knowing that Phyrexian Tower wouldn't have helped you in that match. What would have?

Gate to Phyrexia?

[2nd_lawl]

Just Made t8 At the Grudge Match tournament with 74/75 of the list in the Original post. I might do a mini report later.

That would be great.  What card did you change?

-1 phyrexian tower in the SB for a Perish.  And then I played against oath twice and fish 0 times :/.  Went undefeated in the swiss anyway(only dropping 1 game) then got pared against MUD with maindeck Razormane masticore in the t8,  I vomited out loud.

Normally that's the case...

At least you can rest assured knowing that Phyrexian Tower wouldn't have helped you in that match. What would have?

Gate to Phyrexia?

Nope, I never cast a creature in either game that I lost, and in the 3rd game he t1 chalice 2'd me. If I had 1 more turn, I would have been able to helm him out, but razormane is a nasty clock . On my last turn I needed to rip consultation for the win.  Actually if I had EE in my sb as a 1 of I would have won the 3rd game I think, as I would have been able to seal for EE and kill his t1 chalice on 2, which would have let me edict his razormane, and play my bitterblossom.  The other card that might have been good is some kind of creature kill that doesn't cost 2, but the options are kind of lacking, Snuff Out is probably the best one(but ghastly demise perhaps also deserves consideration, the problem I have with both cards is that they cant kill bob), I would consider adding it back to the SB as a 1-of.  Im thinking of Tearing down the sb and rebuilding it from the ground up, as

[Stormanimagus]

Just Made t8 At the Grudge Match tournament with 74/75 of the list in the Original post. I might do a mini report later.

That would be great.  What card did you change?

-1 phyrexian tower in the SB for a Perish.  And then I played against oath twice and fish 0 times :/.  Went undefeated in the swiss anyway(only dropping 1 game) then got pared against MUD with maindeck Razormane masticore in the t8,  I vomited out loud.

Normally that's the case...

At least you can rest assured knowing that Phyrexian Tower wouldn't have helped you in that match. What would have?

Gate to Phyrexia?

Nope, I never cast a creature in either game that I lost, and in the 3rd game he t1 chalice 2'd me. If I had 1 more turn, I would have been able to helm him out, but razormane is a nasty clock . On my last turn I needed to rip consultation for the win.  Actually if I had EE in my sb as a 1 of I would have won the 3rd game I think, as I would have been able to seal for EE and kill his t1 chalice on 2, which would have let me edict his razormane, and play my bitterblossom.  The other card that might have been good is some kind of creature kill that doesn't cost 2, but the options are kind of lacking, Snuff Out is probably the best one(but ghastly demise perhaps also deserves consideration, the problem I have with both cards is that they cant kill bob), I would consider adding it back to the SB as a 1-of.  Im thinking of Tearing down the sb and rebuilding it from the ground up, as

I really like EE as at least a 1 of in the SB. Snuff out and Ghastly Demise are OK answers to Golem, but I've found 1-for-1's VS. MUD to often not be enough. This is why I somewhat disagree with players who think that 4x Nature's Claim will get them there against MUD. It really doesn't much of the time. You need cards that attack their STRATEGY as a whole or a strategy of your own that just trumps theirs (TPS just wins faster or pumps out Inkwell). I think that "answer" cards become dangerous when considering the MUD match-up. EE is an exception as it allows you to advance YOUR strategy, which should, ultimately, trump theirs (20/20 flyer >>> 5/3 nothing).

On another card choice note: have you considered Guul Draz Assassin (leveler creature) as a possible answer to the creatures out there. I'm just wondering if he's too slow and would only have narrower applications. Here's how I see him playing out.

VS. MUD (on the play)

Turn 1 Ritual + Assassin + Level
Turn 2: Level 2
Turn 3: Level 3
Turn 4: Level 4

That is most likely too slow, but then it is repeatable so they can't really do much at that point. Also once he's Level 4 he is out of Masticore range as well as Trike rang so he is only susceptible to dups.

He's probably a poor choice, but could he be made to work? Would he work better in a deck like TPS with more fast mana?

I look forward to your reply. Thanks!

-Storm

[Djinn]

Just Made t8 At the Grudge Match tournament with 74/75 of the list in the Original post. I might do a mini report later.

That would be great.  What card did you change?

-1 phyrexian tower in the SB for a Perish.  And then I played against oath twice and fish 0 times :/.  Went undefeated in the swiss anyway(only dropping 1 game) then got pared against MUD with maindeck Razormane masticore in the t8,  I vomited out loud.

Normally that's the case...

At least you can rest assured knowing that Phyrexian Tower wouldn't have helped you in that match. What would have?

Gate to Phyrexia?

Nope, I never cast a creature in either game that I lost, and in the 3rd game he t1 chalice 2'd me. If I had 1 more turn, I would have been able to helm him out, but razormane is a nasty clock . On my last turn I needed to rip consultation for the win.  Actually if I had EE in my sb as a 1 of I would have won the 3rd game I think, as I would have been able to seal for EE and kill his t1 chalice on 2, which would have let me edict his razormane, and play my bitterblossom.  The other card that might have been good is some kind of creature kill that doesn't cost 2, but the options are kind of lacking, Snuff Out is probably the best one(but ghastly demise perhaps also deserves consideration, the problem I have with both cards is that they cant kill bob), I would consider adding it back to the SB as a 1-of.  Im thinking of Tearing down the sb and rebuilding it from the ground up, as

Sounds noobish but what is EE?

Edit: Engineered Explosives just clicked in my head

[MagicMan]

Just Made t8 At the Grudge Match tournament with 74/75 of the list in the Original post. I might do a mini report later.

I would be interested in seeing the report as well. I was at Hadley but unfortunately didnt get the chance to mee you I dont think.

Also would u consider running a 3rd Dark Depths? How often do u run into times when u have one of ur 4 Hexmages ready and cant get your Dark Depths land in time? Thanks

[Djinn]

I'm wondering if anyone has used Chains of Mephistopheles in Dark Times, and what their experience was with it.  Seems like you should almost run it main deck?  If I'm not mistaken, card drawing through Bobs and Necropotence is not effected by Chains.

[2nd_lawl]

Hadley Mini-report(Have a plan):

I awoke in a cold sweat, there were flies, flies everywhere. Big ones, Little ones, fast ones, slow ones.  Never Had I seen so many damn flies!  As I regained my focus I remembered where I was, Inside a game store that looked suspiciously like a barn from the outside.  I wanted to go back to bed right next to my beloved air-conditioner inside my very cold and very insect-free room.

Round 1 - Oath of Jews
g1 - He does nothing/gets thoughtsiezed while I leyline/helm the she skin from his flesh and the flesh from his bones and Leyline/Helm his bones dry. And still he did not suffer enough.
g2 - he plays a bunch of mana and then hardcasts a Hellkite Overlord. I said "WAT" and obeylined him again.

During this round I got to watch someone else playing my deck, no offense buddy whoever you were, but you were seriously dooan it wrong.

Round 2 - BUG Fish!
g1- I for one welcome our new Marit Lage overlords,  my opponent was less enthused about their arrival.
g2- I played a necro, striplocked him, Killed his creatures, drew a bunch of cards (down to 5 I think) DT'd for yawgs will, then idiotically waited a turn to duress him first to play around spell pierce with him on 1 card(he just had a sandbagged land) He draws and Duress's my will away .  In retrospect If I wanted to play around pierce I should have just DT'd for hexmage (I Had depths in hand), or If i wanted to play around creature removal I should have duressed him Before playing the DT->Will. Anyway I just necro'ed down to 1, drew 2 hexmages and won regardless of being bad.

Round 3 - Paul Mastriano with Blue cards
g1 -I get a pretty fast start and have hexmage/depths in play by turn 4(?) After some back and fourth. He Plays the Hell mary time walk, Jace, 0:brainstorm and Misses.
g2- My opening hand is Lotus, Duress, Hexmage, Depths, Swamp Swamp, Swamp. In that Order. I emerged Victorious from this thrilling battle.

Round 4 - Workshopington
I Win the Die roll.

Round 5 - Oath of Jews II: Revenge is a dish best served never
g1 - I actually Just forgot but I think I made a 20/20 and rotated it 90 degrees Clockwise.
g2 - I have leyline and he opens with land, sol ring. I go ritual into double duress and see his hand of  2 oath, regrowth, Will, Land.  I Chortled, then Imp sealed for null rod. He goes land, pass, I go land pass, soon after I draw helm and play it to protect my null rod from claim, and he asks me If I have any mana open. I respond with "no I cant activate it without any mana." I quickly pass, and he draws and scoops. GOTEM.  My proudest moment.

Round 6 - Me and my buddy travis(not laplante) are both 5-0 so we draw, I go to "Tran's World Food Mart" and buy some dried anchovies + caramel rollups and some delicious Aloe Vera Drink for lunch.  He gets some sushi  at the restaurant next-door and I walk in and eat his edamame.  

Round 7- Guy with workshops - Im a lock so I can technically try and dreamcrush this guy to knock him out of t8 But I figure out that if I draw him in, there's no way I will play against him anyway in the semi's  based on breakers, and im also lazy so we draw.

T8
Joe Brown (my dad's name, which is weird) with shops w/ maindeck razormane masticore.
g1- I win the Die roll but still somehow lose when my t1 duress + bob drew me into nothing but extremely painful leylines and swamps that arent diabolic edicts.  Bob gets eaten by razormane, and I die soon after after drawing alot of blanks.
g2- I have a weak draw but all he has is thorn, While i duress away his smokestacks. He fins another stack, but I get crucible down, forcing him to ramp his stack to 3. Crucible lets me sandbag waste + urborg + depths in hand as lands. By the time the stack dies and the smoke clears my board is nothing to his board of thorn, thorn Shop. I waste his shop and pass back, he draws and passes. I play urborg, he draws and passes, I play swamp, he Draws and Passes, I play Depths, Emissary, he draws and passes, In my upkeep I Vamp and he scoops.
g3- He t1 chalice 2's me and then razormane's my face off. I imp seal for Helm and play it. If I draw consultation or leyline on my last turn I can win with leyline/helm, If I Draw Thoughtsieze I can Kill his Razormane (going to 1).  but It doesent happen, So I have to helm him for 7(with rituals) and hope to hit razormane or duplicant, I Hit Lodestone and Die.

Oh well

[2nd_lawl]

I'm wondering if anyone has used Chains of Mephistopheles in Dark Times, and what their experience was with it.  Seems like you should almost run it main deck?  If I'm not mistaken, card drawing through Bobs and Necropotence is not effected by Chains.

Ive played this card before, But its not very good since the restriction of TFK.  Bob is not affected by it and that's the problem, You cant afford to have a card that is a do-nothing in all of the non blue matchups, and STILL a do nothing half the time against Tez, because they play bob. When Blue decks all relied on TFK as their draw engine this card was good.  I feel like people have a tendency when they see new/roguish decks to automatically assume that it is still "in development"  and just suggest whatever cards strike their fancy, this isn't the case, I have been working on this deck for the better part of a year, tuning it for the meta and trying out cards, The (maindeck) is right for sure(the only card that is up in the air as far as i'm concerned is the pithing needle) and while I still frequently tinker with the sideboard Its more like I have a set gameplan against all the decks and I just change numbers based on what I expect to see.

[Phele]

We have lots of Workshop Aggro and Oath in our Meta and I would love to splash Green, especially for Claim out of the board but also a possible Crop Rotation/Strip/Loam lock in the maindeck.

This is what I came to so far:

Mana:
1 Black Lotus
1 Lotus Petal
1 Mox Jet
1 Strip Mine
3 Wasteland
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
2 Dark Depths
3 Bayou
6 Fetchlands
4 Swamp
4 Dark Ritual

Creatures:
4 Dark Confidant
4 Vampire Hexmage

Spells:
4 Duress
4 Thoughtseize
4 Leyline of the Void
2 Diabolic Edict
2 Crop Rotation
1 Life from the Loam
1 Darkblast
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Imperial Seal
1 Yawgmoths Will
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Null Rod
1 Pithing Needle
1 Helm of Obedience

Board:
3 Tarmogoyf
3 Natures Claim
1 Forrest
1 Pernicious Deed
1 Pithing Needle
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Yxlid Jailer
2 Sadistic Sacrament
2 Null Rod

I cut Consultation out of the maindeck as I have never been such a fan of removing all my singletons. Even Consultation on Depths is somewhat risky. I also cut Necro. It is a bomb in your opening hand with Ritual but I too often draw it under a Confidant where I mostly hated it. Its now a 61 cards maindeck so maybe you have suggestion what to cut as well.

In testing the Workshop matchup has improved a lot, as Claims and Goyf are a beast against Shops and you don't have to fear Chalice 2 that much. You now also have a smooth weapon against resolved Oathes. Deed is also a versatile reset button.

The manabase doesn't feel too weakened as I still play 10 possible Basics (Fetches and Basic Swamps) plus the forrest out of the board against Shops and Fish and Crop Rotation as an answer against hostile Wastelands. Crop on Bojuka is also a nice tool out of the board against Dredge and Will-centric combo.

What do you think about this version?

[2nd_lawl]

We have lots of Workshop Aggro and Oath in our Meta and I would love to splash Green, especially for Claim out of the board but also a possible Crop Rotation/Strip/Loam lock in the maindeck.

This is what I came to so far:

Mana:
1 Black Lotus
1 Lotus Petal
1 Mox Jet
1 Strip Mine
3 Wasteland
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
2 Dark Depths
3 Bayou
6 Fetchlands
4 Swamp
4 Dark Ritual

Creatures:
4 Dark Confidant
4 Vampire Hexmage

Spells:
4 Duress
4 Thoughtseize
4 Leyline of the Void
2 Diabolic Edict
2 Crop Rotation
1 Life from the Loam
1 Darkblast
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Imperial Seal
1 Yawgmoths Will
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Null Rod
1 Pithing Needle
1 Helm of Obedience

Board:
3 Tarmogoyf
3 Natures Claim
1 Forrest
1 Pernicious Deed
1 Pithing Needle
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Yxlid Jailer
2 Sadistic Sacrament
2 Null Rod

I cut Consultation out of the maindeck as I have never been such a fan of removing all my singletons. Even Consultation on Depths is somewhat risky. I also cut Necro. It is a bomb in your opening hand with Ritual but I too often draw it under a Confidant where I mostly hated it. Its now a 61 cards maindeck so maybe you have suggestion what to cut as well.

In testing the Workshop matchup has improved a lot, as Claims and Goyf are a beast against Shops and you don't have to fear Chalice 2 that much. You now also have a smooth weapon against resolved Oathes. Deed is also a versatile reset button.

The manabase doesn't feel too weakened as I still play 10 possible Basics (Fetches and Basic Swamps) plus the forrest out of the board against Shops and Fish and Crop Rotation as an answer against hostile Wastelands. Crop on Bojuka is also a nice tool out of the board against Dredge and Will-centric combo.

What do you think about this version?

I would NOT cut consultation, it is the most powerful card in the deck.  In a year of playing the deck I have never killed myself with it when going for Dark Depths, And have only died to it twice while going for a desperation 1-of. It is one of the best cards ever printed and One of the premier reasons to play the deck: it is one of the few combo decks in the format that can take advantage of this card.  If you want another card to cut instead: pithing needle is my suggestion.  Also I think crop rotation is pointless/poor why would you take out one powerful 1 mana tutor for a weak one that does a fraction as much plus gets you 2-for1'd when its countered?  Darkblast main right now isnt very good, as it doesn't kill trygon. Im not sure what loam does either? You dont have free turns to cast 2 mana do-nothings with this deck. You are trying to find a hole and then blow them out, This isn't a control deck.  Goyf wont be big enough vs stax either, as it is hard to get anything besides land and sorcery in the yard, plus it has anti-synergy with leyline.  They might be okay in the fish matchup, but I think I would rather just have perish.

edit: what im getting at here, and in my last post is simply this: To me your suggestions indicate to me that You haven't actually played the deck, and are just making off the cuff suggestions and changing the list for its own sake. I am certainly open to the suggestion of a second color, but if you had played the deck extensively you would know that life from the loam for example is really going to be a poor choice for this deck.  This deck is NOT trying to compete the blue decks in card advantage. What it is trying to do is compete with them in card "relevance" - that means taking their best card(either offensive or defensive), and following it up with a game ending threat, or mana-screwing them and deploying a game ending threat.  If they neutralize the threat, repeat the process.  No amount of loams is ever going to let you compete with blue decks in card advantage.

[MagicMan]

2nd Law, I posted this question to u earlier and I think u may have missed it cause I havent seen an answer yet? I was just curious  . . . . . would u consider running a 3rd Dark Depths? How often do u run into times when u have one of ur 4 Hexmages ready and cant get your Dark Depths land in time? I also thought of another questions? Would u consider possibly adding another tutor such as grim tutor to the deck, maybe in place of pithing needle? I also feel that its possible to add a copy of tendrils as people are hurting themselves left and right with Dark Condisant and you are running dark rituals, yaw will, and lotus? COuld be another kill condition?  My thoughts anyway, Love your list and I will be practicing with it!


Ughh one more thing. I understand how the MB works, but i guess Im an idiot and was wondering if you could explain what u sideboard Bitterblossum in against and how they are effective. I've personally never used Bitterblossum out of the board for any deck before. Thanks, JJ

[2nd_lawl]

2nd Law, I posted this question to u earlier and I think u may have missed it cause I havent seen an answer yet? I was just curious  . . . . . would u consider running a 3rd Dark Depths? How often do u run into times when u have one of ur 4 Hexmages ready and cant get your Dark Depths land in time? I also thought of another questions? Would u consider possibly adding another tutor such as grim tutor to the deck, maybe in place of pithing needle? I also feel that its possible to add a copy of tendrils as people are hurting themselves left and right with Dark Condisant and you are running dark rituals, yaw will, and lotus? COuld be another kill condition?  My thoughts anyway, Love your list and I will be practicing with it!

Yea, I would consider that. I might be too attached to needle, and it is possible that the 3rd depths is better.  As i said in previous posts the MD needle is the first card I would cut if you are looking to play with numbers or try a new card.  I haven't tested with tendrils, but my initial isntinct is that It isnt necessary to offset the lifeloss. It isn't good in the worst matchup (workshops) If i was looking to change cards, I would be focusing on cards that improve the shops matchup first and foremost. It is possible in like a heavy fish meta for example, that tendrils is good, especially post board.

Ughh one more thing. I understand how the MB works, but i guess Im an idiot and was wondering if you could explain what u sideboard Bitterblossum in against and how they are effective. I've personally never used Bitterblossum out of the board for any deck before. Thanks, JJ

Bitterblossom is for the workshop matchup, as it is the best card against both smokestack and wire.  One of the ways to beat shops post board is to out-permanent them and race them under their own spheres while using wasteland to contain their mana.  Because you have a ton of basics, and they are all non-basics, it is actually fairly common to lock them or contain them under their own spheres by wasting a shop.  The problem with blossom, and the one im struggling with is the fact that it also costs 2.  I'm probably going to completley rebuild my board for waterbury, with the shop matchup as the focus.  Ill be looking to diversify mana costs, to address the chalice problem. Im hopefull that scars will contain some kind of help for the matchup, perhaps some kind of anti-sphere (0: cards may be cast for their casting cost, without paying additional costs).

[MagicMan]

Ughh one more thing. I understand how the MB works, but i guess Im an idiot and was wondering if you could explain what u sideboard Bitterblossum in against and how they are effective. I've personally never used Bitterblossum out of the board for any deck before. Thanks, JJ

Bitterblossom is for the workshop matchup, as it is the best card against both smokestack and wire.  One of the ways to beat shops post board is to out-permanent them and race them under their own spheres while using wasteland to contain their mana.  Because you have a ton of basics, and they are all non-basics, it is actually fairly common to lock them or contain them under their own spheres by wasting a shop.  The problem with blossom, and the one im struggling with is the fact that it also costs 2.  I'm probably going to completley rebuild my board for waterbury, with the shop matchup as the focus.  Ill be looking to diversify mana costs, to address the chalice problem. Im hopefull that scars will contain some kind of help for the matchup, perhaps some kind of anti-sphere (0: cards may be cast for their casting cost, without paying additional costs).
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Are u considering taking the blossums out. I only ask as I dont own any and was deciding if they are worth purchasing or maybe there is something else i can use for the shop matchup.

[2nd_lawl]

Ughh one more thing. I understand how the MB works, but i guess Im an idiot and was wondering if you could explain what u sideboard Bitterblossum in against and how they are effective. I've personally never used Bitterblossum out of the board for any deck before. Thanks, JJ

Bitterblossom is for the workshop matchup, as it is the best card against both smokestack and wire.  One of the ways to beat shops post board is to out-permanent them and race them under their own spheres while using wasteland to contain their mana.  Because you have a ton of basics, and they are all non-basics, it is actually fairly common to lock them or contain them under their own spheres by wasting a shop.  The problem with blossom, and the one im struggling with is the fact that it also costs 2.  I'm probably going to completley rebuild my board for waterbury, with the shop matchup as the focus.  Ill be looking to diversify mana costs, to address the chalice problem. Im hopefull that scars will contain some kind of help for the matchup, perhaps some kind of anti-sphere (0: cards may be cast for their casting cost, without paying additional costs).

Are u considering taking the blossums out. I only ask as I dont own any and was deciding if they are worth purchasing or maybe there is something else i can use for the shop matchup.
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I'm not sure yet honestly, The goal for the SB is to have the right # of cards to go in and out for each matchup, and I have been pretty busy and haven't had the time to sit down and work it all out for each matchup.  One of the easiest ways to lose% in a match up is to have too many or too few  SB cards.  Regarding BB specifically: the # of anti shop cards available to the deck in these colors is limited, which is why im looking for tech specifically for shops.  BB has served me well in the past but im not married to it,  Ill be able to give you a definitive answer sometime before Waterbury when I rework the SB.

[overseer1234]

The problem with blossom, and the one im struggling with is the fact that it also costs 2.  I'm probably going to completley rebuild my board for waterbury, with the shop matchup as the focus.  Ill be looking to diversify mana costs, to address the chalice problem. Im hopefull that scars will contain some kind of help for the matchup, perhaps some kind of anti-sphere (0: cards may be cast for their casting cost, without paying additional costs).

I woudl definetly advise to run at least 1 Engineered Explosives in the sideboard vs Shop decks as it it one of the few things that can get rid of chalice @2 for mono black decks.

Only problem is that you need your wastelands/strip mine to set it at 0 when there are sphere's on the field...

[Phele]

I would NOT cut consultation, it is the most powerful card in the deck.  In a year of playing the deck I have never killed myself with it when going for Dark Depths, And have only died to it twice while going for a desperation 1-of. It is one of the best cards ever printed and One of the premier reasons to play the deck: it is one of the few combo decks in the format that can take advantage of this card.  If you want another card to cut instead: pithing needle is my suggestion.  Also I think crop rotation is pointless/poor why would you take out one powerful 1 mana tutor for a weak one that does a fraction as much plus gets you 2-for1'd when its countered?  Darkblast main right now isnt very good, as it doesn't kill trygon. Im not sure what loam does either? You dont have free turns to cast 2 mana do-nothings with this deck. You are trying to find a hole and then blow them out, This isn't a control deck.  Goyf wont be big enough vs stax either, as it is hard to get anything besides land and sorcery in the yard, plus it has anti-synergy with leyline.  They might be okay in the fish matchup, but I think I would rather just have perish.

edit: what im getting at here, and in my last post is simply this: To me your suggestions indicate to me that You haven't actually played the deck, and are just making off the cuff suggestions and changing the list for its own sake. I am certainly open to the suggestion of a second color, but if you had played the deck extensively you would know that life from the loam for example is really going to be a poor choice for this deck.  This deck is NOT trying to compete the blue decks in card advantage. What it is trying to do is compete with them in card "relevance" - that means taking their best card(either offensive or defensive), and following it up with a game ending threat, or mana-screwing them and deploying a game ending threat.  If they neutralize the threat, repeat the process.  No amount of loams is ever going to let you compete with blue decks in card advantage.

As I wrote, i wanted to improve the deck in the Workshop Aggro and Oath machtup. We also have quite a bit Noble Fish around still playing Selkie. So: Tarmogoyf (after boarding there are enoughe creatures and Instants in this deck) is good against Fish and Shops and Claim is good against Shops and Oath (better than Phyrexian Tower or  Emissary imo). Darklast is good against Fish and more flexible against Control (when they have multiple Confidants or Welders). Remember: I play in my meta, not in yours. And here People play Natures Claim maindeck over Trygon in many cases.

The Deck plays lots of singletons and I want to have the possibility to go for them with my tutors. While playing the deck (yes, I tested the deck quite a lot, but I want to improve it before actualy playing it in our tournament) I very often hated Consultation in my hand, when I seriously wanted one of the singletons like Helm or Will. Thats my expericence and I modified the list for that reason.

Loam is a very good comeback card for this deck, that improves the mana denial route and can bring you back one of your combo reasons. For what reason do you play Crucible? I guess for the same. My version is still a combo deck with an aggro-control backup plan and I just strengthen the second route a bit with Loam which interacts perfectly with Crop Rotation. Your list is definately also a combo deck with an aggro-control backup plan, not a pure combo deck so the inclusions makes sense, it is just a matter of playstyle. I very often like my opponents to use all their ressoures to stop my combo and then aggro-control them out. Especially against control this route works perfectly. You say, I can't beat control by card advantage. I say I can beat control by mana denial and for that Loam does help a lot. It actually can't get countered and it isn't stopped by Claim or Trygon.

You suggested in your opening post that you are open for splashes. But to me it seems you just want to discuss little modifications of your mono black list. Thats fine but then say so. Cheers