The Dark Times Primer

[TheWhiteDragon]

Confidant is very much better in this deck since it is cheaper and the +1 for me is more valuable than the -1 for my opponent.  Games with this deck tend to be swingy in that I assemble the combo, which bob enables, or that my opponent topdecks the win, cause my hand control won't let them stockpile an attack.  Also, ritual enables duress/bob on turn 1 whereas hippy goes in blind or waits until turn 2.  Hippy is very good at what he does, but not nearly as potent as bob.

Thorn isn't good in this deck.  I run a fair amount of beaters, but the disruption is important to advance that plan.  I also run 0 land destruction and only 2 null rods, so hindering mana is only good vs storm, where I have little problem against with all my discard effects.  I won't really be causing delay to any other deck than storm with thorns. It will hurt me more than my opponent most times.

Withered wretch might be an interesting sb slot, but grave disruption has been almost wholly unneeded.  Needles take down so many things including bazaars.  It's useful against yawg will, but that's just 1 card and they have to topdeck it lest I yank it from their hand.  In the sb I also have cages, sacrament, and extirpate for something really focused on snapcaster or yawg will too.  What I'd really like is to +1 on obliterator and hippie, but don't know what to cut. Hymns for hippy don't work since hymns take 2 cards out immediately for 2 mana, where hippie takes 3 turns to gain that advantage.

Mind twist might also be a decent 1 or 2 of.

[vaughnbros]

Confidant is better is every deck than hypnotic and personally I think Liliana is better than hypnotic.  She is an answer to resolved creatures, something really only obliterator can do anything about.  With rituals and the relatively low curve you are working with your entire hand should be dumped pretty early so I'm not quite sure why you are so worried about the +1's drawback.  Also she's one of the few planewalkers, if not the only, that can reach her ultimate almost every game that shes played.

Withered Wretch would be more of an answer to Snapcasters than anything else.  If your not going to main deck it don't play it.  Cage is generally just better than it.

Isn't mind twist just worse than hymn?  Since you dont have colorless mana producers and you have tons of other discard.

The one thing I've been wondering about this is how much is this affected by the die roll against decks with all the discard effects?

[TheWhiteDragon]

Confidant is better is every deck than hypnotic and personally I think Liliana is better than hypnotic.  She is an answer to resolved creatures, something really only obliterator can do anything about.  With rituals and the relatively low curve you are working with your entire hand should be dumped pretty early so I'm not quite sure why you are so worried about the +1's drawback.  Also she's one of the few planewalkers, if not the only, that can reach her ultimate almost every game that shes played.

Withered Wretch would be more of an answer to Snapcasters than anything else.  If your not going to main deck it don't play it.  Cage is generally just better than it.

Isn't mind twist just worse than hymn?  Since you dont have colorless mana producers and you have tons of other discard.

The one thing I've been wondering about this is how much is this affected by the die roll against decks with all the discard effects?

Yeah, this deck will never have less than 4 bob.

Liliana is good, but the randomness of the discard can be really good.  It's also one-sided.  Yes, I should dump my hand quick, but when I'm holding combo pieces or discard or obliterator that I can't cast just yet, Liliana's +1 isn't great.  I can always get a bonus out of hippy's discard no matter what I'm holding.  Liliana is an answer to critters, but obliterator can be as well, like you said.  also, a 20/20 isn't too shabby of an answer to critters either.  Only BSC can last against Merit, and Emakrul can blow anything up with a swing before making contact (and oath lists tend to regrow time walk or use dragon breath anyway, so any sorcery-speed answer is a no-go.  Griselbrand is even faster than instants, but at least I have needles to buy some time there.

Overall, I like the ability and extra damage of hippy over liliana's +1 being the same cost.  However, her -2 might be worth it to run 2 of her.  Her ultimate, I'd never considered.  I never actually had her hit +6 in a game.  I either won or lost long before then.  Usually her first ability used is the -2, and then it's 6 turns later to use.  Games never last 8+ turns after I land Liliana usually.

Cage is better than wretch.  He's not good enough main.

Twist is worse than him, you're right.

The die roll isn't usually too bad.  I typically don't get blown out on turn 1 anymore than any non-FoW deck.  Misstep would be the answer if I found myself getting K.O.ed on turn 1 a lot.  Shops on the go is rough, but again, it's as bad for any non-FoW deck, and missteps don't help there at all.  I have a crapload of basics and 1cc or 2cc spells/threats, plus my combo costs only 2 mana.  I think I'm in better shape being on the draw against shops than most decks.  Outside of FoW, there's nothing I can do - but not every deck can run 4 FoW + 12 blue, otherwise there'd be no diversity at all.

[Metman]

This deck has three fundamental problem matches which need to be addressed when building and metegaming. First, this deck has a horrible Shops matchup. Null Rod helps the Martello and Metalworker versions but Duress effects and Rituals are terrible against a deck as consistent as Shops. Emissary of Despair and Bitterblossom are nearly mandatory SB material. Second, this deck struggles against Control running Jace and Missteps. I don't know what the solution is, perhaps Hymn, perhaps your own Missteps. Finally, this deck scoops to Oath and once again, I don't know the solution.

Mono Black is very difficult to metegame with. The deck is too sorcery-speed focused to be able to react with. The deck should be focussed around dictating the tempo and terms.

I don't intend to sound like a turd in a punch bowl and wreck your party, however a buddy of mine loves Dark Times and we have spent many hours testing its match ups and the deck doesn't have a lot of flexibility. I really like the deck if the metegame presents itself to play it. If Dredge and Control are on top of the hill, Dark Times is the deck to play. Otherwise, you end up greatly weakening those two match ups for slight increases in an otherwise terrible Shops match up.

[TheWhiteDragon]

This deck has three fundamental problem matches which need to be addressed when building and metegaming. First, this deck has a horrible Shops matchup. Null Rod helps the Martello and Metalworker versions but Duress effects and Rituals are terrible against a deck as consistent as Shops. Emissary of Despair and Bitterblossom are nearly mandatory SB material. Second, this deck struggles against Control running Jace and Missteps. I don't know what the solution is, perhaps Hymn, perhaps your own Missteps. Finally, this deck scoops to Oath and once again, I don't know the solution.

Mono Black is very difficult to metegame with. The deck is too sorcery-speed focused to be able to react with. The deck should be focussed around dictating the tempo and terms.

I'm not really sure how true this is.

Shops probably is the worst matchup, but it's not like they drop a workshop and I scoop.  I run 12 non-wasteable lands and 3 needles with 2 rods.  It's not an ideal match, but I can race out a couple bobs or hexmages.  On the play, I can even turn 1 an obliterator.  SB, I will use emissaries, and the bitterblossoms (main and sb) buy lots of time.  Hexmage with a depths in play can EoT become Merit (to dodge Dupe/Metamorph)...so there ARE answers.  Even turn 1 ritual, liliana will take down golems and leave my opponent with spheres/tangles while I build up a weenie army. It's not unwinnable.

Control running jace and missteps?  I really feel like this is a STRONGER matchup, not a weak one.  Their missteps will hit my duresses, which is basically pulling out a counterspell.  I run 10 discard spells, 2 hypnotics, and liliana (which may even become 2).  I think I'll out discard their counterspells.  3 pithing needles make Jace laughable.  Null rod slows down their nuts as well.  4 hexmage are not just combo enablers, they are jace killers.  I can attack them down quickly, and if jace gets pumped at all, I can sac to remove all the counters.  BB is a fair trade for 2UU.  If they run repeals, it's a bit tougher (but not much), and if they are running hurkylls, they've got nothing to stop Merit Lage.  I have 12 beaters and a crapton of disruption.  I'm basically a duressing fish deck with a giant combo finish - and half of my combo also takes out their best card.  I struggle to see how this is a bad match in any way.

Oath is also "tough", but it doesn't scoop.  It scoops to turn 1 mox, orchard, oath...but most decks have nothing to handle that.  Again, the discard here is big.  If they don't turn 1 the oath while I'm on the draw, I can easily make them discard it.  They can topdeck it or a tutor, so it's not an easy match, but don't forget Merit Lage.  While oath can turn 1 mox, orchard, oath - I can just as easily turn 1 ritual, duress, hexmage and then drop depths.  There's not a lot of time against a fast Merit.  Sb, I also run sadistic sacraments particularly for oath and tendrils decks.  If I can pull their griselbrands/emakruls/tendrils, then the only tool they have left is Jace, which a hexmage/needle kills. Oh, and I also run 4 grafdiggers in the sb too. -2 hippy, -2 obliterator, -1 hymn, -2 rod, +3 sacrament, +4 cage.  Again, not an easy match, but not quite the scoop you imply.

The deck is very sorcery speed, but I think the discard and speed of its combo DOES dictate the tempo.  Perhaps the emissary, rod, needle, cage, sacrament inclusions are this addressing of these archetypes that you're referring to.  I think the maindeck itself addresses the jace/misstep deck - still don't see that as a problem.

The SB has changed a bit:

// Sideboard
SB: 1  Phyrexian Obliterator
SB: 2  Null Rod
SB: 1  Bitterblossom
SB: 3  Emissary of Dispair
SB: 3  Sadistic Sacrament
SB: 4  Grafdigger's Cage
SB: 1  ???

[Metman]

Granted, Pithing Needle is better against JtMS than Wastelands are. We haven't tested the swap. However, using Hexmage to nullify JtMS is a loosing proposition. Hexmage/Depths is the combo that can race Vault/Key or Tinker and banking on two Hexmages to take care of JtMS that bounces your combo, in my testing is not plausible.

Using Duress and having it Misstepped is not the same as having a Force or bomb pulled from the hand. As a control player, I would rather you take my Misstep than my Tinker, Yawg, or a tutor.

You are running a much more aggro version though. I haven't tested Gatekeeper, Spector, and Oblitorater. I can only assume they help the Control match up. One of the most frustrating spells to have played against the control player is Leyline of the Void, a card you have cut from the maindeck. Also the loss of Wastelands weakens the Control match up. Are the cards you are replacing them with holding the line or improving the Control and Shop match ups? You are severely weakening Dredge too.

I always felt like playing this deck was nigh impossible to metegame. Black just doesn't have enough flexibility and splash hate available to it. It seems to me that every time we made a change to improving one specific match we were robbing Peter to pay Paul.

[TheWhiteDragon]

Granted, Pithing Needle is better against JtMS than Wastelands are. We haven't tested the swap. However, using Hexmage to nullify JtMS is a loosing proposition. Hexmage/Depths is the combo that can race Vault/Key or Tinker and banking on two Hexmages to take care of JtMS that bounces your combo, in my testing is not plausible.

I think using hexmage to kill jace is not ideal as you want to use hexmage for your combo...but it is a fair trade.  Jace is perhaps their most potent spell and is a wincon.  Pithing needle ALSO stops jace and makes him a 4cc blank card.  That's 7 answers to 4 (at most) cards.  I also have yawgwill to replay sacrificed hexmages.  Pithing needle also stops vault/key (as do the null rods).  Control usually doesn't run wastelands, so since I'm not naming waste, I'm naming key (so they can't use it with Sensei top either) or jace.  And that's all assuming I don't just make them discard it or kill jace with a pair of 2/x critters.

Also, I've never, in any game, had Merit Lage bounced with Jace.  I've had him bounced with repeal or e-truth, but never Jace.  If you have Hexmage in play when they have jace, you sac in response to them bouncing hexmage.  If they don't bounce it, you sac on their EoT to make the token.  I don't get how they'll ever have Jace in play and on their main phase when you'd have Merit in play.  If you are just playing/sacing hexmage and leaving the token and passing the turn, you're doing it wrong.  I can only suspect that would be done when you are afraid they are going to topdeck wasteland to ruin your combo.  With needles, you don't fear that.  The only other scenario is if they have a flying blocker - I think delver is the only jace deck I've seen with fliers.  In that case, you're probably better using your 2/Xs as attackers or removing the fliers with liliana/gatekeeper first.

Using Duress and having it Misstepped is not the same as having a Force or bomb pulled from the hand. As a control player, I would rather you take my Misstep than my Tinker, Yawg, or a tutor.

Much agreed, however I run 10 discard spells (2 that can't be mistepped) and the two hippies and liliana.  They run 4 missteps.  If they are FoWing a duress, I just got the card I'd probably pull + 1 blue card.  If they drain it, I probably got the card i wanted anyway.  And if they are countering all of my discard, they're not countering my hexmages, bobs, obliterators, or needles.  Vs a control deck that wants to build up a counter wall and gain control, almost all of my cards that don't read "land" are a threat to them.  Also, considering I have 12 creatures - 6 of which can kill snaps/bobs and keep swinging - they need to be countering more than just my discard effects.

You are running a much more aggro version though. I haven't tested Gatekeeper, Spector, and Oblitorater. I can only assume they help the Control match up. One of the most frustrating spells to have played against the control player is Leyline of the Void, a card you have cut from the maindeck. Also the loss of Wastelands weakens the Control match up. Are the cards you are replacing them with holding the line or improving the Control and Shop match ups? You are severely weakening Dredge too.

I swing back and forth between gatekeeper and liliana.  At the moment, i'm testing liliana and might try 2 just to really get a feel for her effect on the game.  Liliana makes my bobs live and theirs die without needing combat, where gatekeeper can only kill 1 before needing combat.  Liliana is additional discard however, and they will soon have to choose between pitching counters or bombs, so there is that.  I don't see leyline as that frustrating for control.  I don't see leyline as anything but a minor speed bump to control.  Only snapcaster builds.  Even then, you need to have it in hand or cast it off ritual for an effect you might need or might not.  It's also a -4 flip to bob and sucks in multiples.  Needles are much more versatile and faster when not in your opener and can hit more than 1 effect with multiples.  Leylines also don't hit wasteland, but needle does, and that's the number one threat to your combo.  They can just sit on an untapped wasteland all day and you'll never get a Merit token.  Leylines had marginal use with helm, but that is a very clunky, disruptable combo that is  very random with the 1-of helm as well.  Leyline is a strong effect, but overall, needles are better.  If I see my opponent is crutching on yawg will or snapcasters, I'll bring in the cages.

Just like leyline, I don't see how wasteland hurts control much.  It might keep them off a splash color if they are 3 color, but any 2 color (like B/U, U/W, R/U) control deck is going to have basics, including 1 of their minor color, fetches, and a set of duals.  Your wastes are hitting 4 or 5 lands at best in that case and are more dead than good.  Then you're also running colorless mana in a deck that has a heavy concentration of colored mana costs.  I've always felt land destruction was bad in dark times.  Control decks try to control your spells, by countering/disrupting your hand.  Shop decks don't disrupt your hand at all, but attack mana with wastes, rods, revoker and then spheres to capitalize on the loss of mana.  Dark times does half and half with land destruction.  It hits your hand, but not with counters so it doesn't do that as well as control, and it can hit mana, but without spheres, so it doesn't do it as well as shops.  That's a bad approach to attach two angles instead of one concentrated effort. Outside of using spheres, I think the duress package is stronger against explosive decks.  Also, wasteland is a 1-for-1 against opposing wastes and bazaars.  One needle shuts off 4 of said cards, allowing me to utilize other slots to advance my game plan.  If anything, I'd go up to 4 needles due to their versatility.  I also don't feel hurt vs dredge by cutting leylines, since needles shut off bazaars as well and I can access them better off tutor.  Ritual + tutor = needle in play too.  I don't have to start with it in hand to realize I need it when they drop bazaar.  Unless you are always mulling into leyline, leyline will have no effect vs dredge.  The times you open with it and it is great will be offset by the times you play fish or aggro MUD and you just lost CA for each leyline in hand.  Needle has a use vs EVERY deck (Jace, Key, Vial, Waste, Belcher...whatever).  It can even name fetchlands when I see they are holding just fetches with my duress.  Also in the SB I have 4 cages, so I'm really not worried about dredge. A turn 1 or 2 20/20 can sometimes get there too, since sacing the hexmage removes all bridges as well.

I always felt like playing this deck was nigh impossible to metagame. Black just doesn't have enough flexibility and splash hate available to it. It seems to me that every time we made a change to improving one specific match we were robbing Peter to pay Paul.

From the general comments, I'm assuming your build was something like 4 bob, 4 hex, 3-4 depths, tutors, 4 leyline, maybe a helm or 2, 8+ discard spells, and 5+ wastes w/ crucible and null rods.  I think this probably gave you good game vs dredge, but left you more vulnerable vs shops and very much more linear vs control without any answer to their engine (Jace).  The extra 4 critters in obliterator/hippy, and the removal for BSC via gatekeeper/liliana, and the alternate aggro in bitterblossoms really sure up these matches.  The needles also help vs jace, dredge, vault/key and opposing wastes in a way that crucible/waste just can't do - and with less slots.  The SB slots of emissary, sacrement, cages...really seem adequate to sure up tougher matches too.

[Metman]

Granted, Pithing Needle is better against JtMS than Wastelands are. We haven't tested the swap. However, using Hexmage to nullify JtMS is a loosing proposition. Hexmage/Depths is the combo that can race Vault/Key or Tinker and banking on two Hexmages to take care of JtMS that bounces your combo, in my testing is not plausible.

I think using hexmage to kill jace is not ideal as you want to use hexmage for your combo...but it is a fair trade.  Jace is perhaps their most potent spell and is a wincon.  Pithing needle ALSO stops jace and makes him a 4cc blank card.  That's 7 answers to 4 (at most) cards.  I also have yawgwill to replay sacrificed hexmages.  Pithing needle also stops vault/key (as do the null rods).  Control usually doesn't run wastelands, so since I'm not naming waste, I'm naming key (so they can't use it with Sensei top either) or jace.  And that's all assuming I don't just make them discard it or kill jace with a pair of 2/x critters.

Also, I've never, in any game, had Merit Lage bounced with Jace.  I've had him bounced with repeal or e-truth, but never Jace.  If you have Hexmage in play when they have jace, you sac in response to them bouncing hexmage.  If they don't bounce it, you sac on their EoT to make the token.  I don't get how they'll ever have Jace in play and on their main phase when you'd have Merit in play.  If you are just playing/sacing hexmage and leaving the token and passing the turn, you're doing it wrong.  I can only suspect that would be done when you are afraid they are going to topdeck wasteland to ruin your combo.  With needles, you don't fear that.  The only other scenario is if they have a flying blocker - I think delver is the only jace deck I've seen with fliers.  In that case, you're probably better using your 2/Xs as attackers or removing the fliers with liliana/gatekeeper first.

Using Duress and having it Misstepped is not the same as having a Force or bomb pulled from the hand. As a control player, I would rather you take my Misstep than my Tinker, Yawg, or a tutor.

Much agreed, however I run 10 discard spells (2 that can't be mistepped) and the two hippies and liliana.  They run 4 missteps.  If they are FoWing a duress, I just got the card I'd probably pull + 1 blue card.  If they drain it, I probably got the card i wanted anyway.  And if they are countering all of my discard, they're not countering my hexmages, bobs, obliterators, or needles.  Vs a control deck that wants to build up a counter wall and gain control, almost all of my cards that don't read "land" are a threat to them.  Also, considering I have 12 creatures - 6 of which can kill snaps/bobs and keep swinging - they need to be countering more than just my discard effects.

You are running a much more aggro version though. I haven't tested Gatekeeper, Spector, and Oblitorater. I can only assume they help the Control match up. One of the most frustrating spells to have played against the control player is Leyline of the Void, a card you have cut from the maindeck. Also the loss of Wastelands weakens the Control match up. Are the cards you are replacing them with holding the line or improving the Control and Shop match ups? You are severely weakening Dredge too.

I swing back and forth between gatekeeper and liliana.  At the moment, i'm testing liliana and might try 2 just to really get a feel for her effect on the game.  Liliana makes my bobs live and theirs die without needing combat, where gatekeeper can only kill 1 before needing combat.  Liliana is additional discard however, and they will soon have to choose between pitching counters or bombs, so there is that.  I don't see leyline as that frustrating for control.  I don't see leyline as anything but a minor speed bump to control.  Only snapcaster builds.  Even then, you need to have it in hand or cast it off ritual for an effect you might need or might not.  It's also a -4 flip to bob and sucks in multiples.  Needles are much more versatile and faster when not in your opener and can hit more than 1 effect with multiples.  Leylines also don't hit wasteland, but needle does, and that's the number one threat to your combo.  They can just sit on an untapped wasteland all day and you'll never get a Merit token.  Leylines had marginal use with helm, but that is a very clunky, disruptable combo that is  very random with the 1-of helm as well.  Leyline is a strong effect, but overall, needles are better.  If I see my opponent is crutching on yawg will or snapcasters, I'll bring in the cages.

Just like leyline, I don't see how wasteland hurts control much.  It might keep them off a splash color if they are 3 color, but any 2 color (like B/U, U/W, R/U) control deck is going to have basics, including 1 of their minor color, fetches, and a set of duals.  Your wastes are hitting 4 or 5 lands at best in that case and are more dead than good.  Then you're also running colorless mana in a deck that has a heavy concentration of colored mana costs.  I've always felt land destruction was bad in dark times.  Control decks try to control your spells, by countering/disrupting your hand.  Shop decks don't disrupt your hand at all, but attack mana with wastes, rods, revoker and then spheres to capitalize on the loss of mana.  Dark times does half and half with land destruction.  It hits your hand, but not with counters so it doesn't do that as well as control, and it can hit mana, but without spheres, so it doesn't do it as well as shops.  That's a bad approach to attach two angles instead of one concentrated effort. Outside of using spheres, I think the duress package is stronger against explosive decks.  Also, wasteland is a 1-for-1 against opposing wastes and bazaars.  One needle shuts off 4 of said cards, allowing me to utilize other slots to advance my game plan.  If anything, I'd go up to 4 needles due to their versatility.  I also don't feel hurt vs dredge by cutting leylines, since needles shut off bazaars as well and I can access them better off tutor.  Ritual + tutor = needle in play too.  I don't have to start with it in hand to realize I need it when they drop bazaar.  Unless you are always mulling into leyline, leyline will have no effect vs dredge.  The times you open with it and it is great will be offset by the times you play fish or aggro MUD and you just lost CA for each leyline in hand.  Needle has a use vs EVERY deck (Jace, Key, Vial, Waste, Belcher...whatever).  It can even name fetchlands when I see they are holding just fetches with my duress.  Also in the SB I have 4 cages, so I'm really not worried about dredge. A turn 1 or 2 20/20 can sometimes get there too, since sacing the hexmage removes all bridges as well.

I always felt like playing this deck was nigh impossible to metagame. Black just doesn't have enough flexibility and splash hate available to it. It seems to me that every time we made a change to improving one specific match we were robbing Peter to pay Paul.

From the general comments, I'm assuming your build was something like 4 bob, 4 hex, 3-4 depths, tutors, 4 leyline, maybe a helm or 2, 8+ discard spells, and 5+ wastes w/ crucible and null rods.  I think this probably gave you good game vs dredge, but left you more vulnerable vs shops and very much more linear vs control without any answer to their engine (Jace).  The extra 4 critters in obliterator/hippy, and the removal for BSC via gatekeeper/liliana, and the alternate aggro in bitterblossoms really sure up these matches.  The needles also help vs jace, dredge, vault/key and opposing wastes in a way that crucible/waste just can't do - and with less slots.  The SB slots of emissary, sacrement, cages...really seem adequate to sure up tougher matches too.

I have bounced many of Marit Lage tokens by tinkering out a robot and passing the turn before the Hexmage comes down.  They play the Hexmage and either have to sac it to create the token or wait until blocking. They either get it bounced or the token becomes too small to return with an alpha strike.  Granted, I usually run either a bounce spell or a Fire/Ice in my control decks.  Tapping down a Marit Lage and dropping a Jace to bounce happens quite frequently. 

My experience with Control v. DT from the control perspective is played for the long haul.  I happily trade bombs for bombs where I just do my best to keep the Hexmage off the board.  I set up an end of the turn Mystical/Vamp for Yawgmoth's Will and win from there, something DTimes can't interact with which is why I think Mental Misstep may be a good option.  With Leyline out it doesn't happen that way. 

You are right, the build we have been testing is close to your mentioned version.  We haven't tested a heavy Pithing Needle version that scraps Wasteland and Leyline.  I was never convinced Needle was a better option against Dredge and Control but I could be convinced otherwise.  One of the problems we always had with DT was the inconsistency in the mana base, but we always liked the Wastelands to disrupt all match ups, though it does make the deck rely on the Urborgs.  I'm not sure if one is better than another, if your testing has proven good I will test it for myself.  A well timed Wasreland does cripple several decks though.  I've been on the receiving end of Wastelands that cut off a secondary color or hit the Workshop that prevents the four or five drops in Shops. 

Phyrexian Revoker may be an option in DT if the Wastelands are kept.  The two drop may be too busy at that point though.  Now that I think about DT as being competitive I think we need to scrap our version and be willing to start over.  We had shelved it with the rise of shops and our inability to come close to besting it.

[serracollector]

this might be a silly suggestion but since you are running an aggro variant of DT have u considered hidden horror/unearth?

this gives you faster threats than obliterator that cant be bolted and also gives a way to return hex/bob/hyppi that have been killed/sacced/discarded by lil/horror. between 8 1cc discards 4 rits and X UNEARTH missteps wont be able to handle them all. hope it helps.

[TheWhiteDragon]

I have bounced many of Marit Lage tokens by tinkering out a robot and passing the turn before the Hexmage comes down.  They play the Hexmage and either have to sac it to create the token or wait until blocking. They either get it bounced or the token becomes too small to return with an alpha strike.  Granted, I usually run either a bounce spell or a Fire/Ice in my control decks.  Tapping down a Marit Lage and dropping a Jace to bounce happens quite frequently.  

In the situation where they are using Merit Lage as a last-ditch effort to stay alive, maybe you can bounce the token.  If you have resolved a tinker and passed the turn and they don't topdeck Liliana/gatekeeper, they've lost anyway.  At best, they get 2 blocks off Merit and then you swing for the kill.  With a hexmage in play and you swinging, they make the token and get in one block, then you bounce it.  So you've turned Jace into a time walk in that scenario.  Again, needles do to Jace what wastelands cannot, so less of a concern for me.  The threat of BSC/aggro is enough to go to 2 liliana though, so I have swapped 1 bitterblossom for lily #2.  I swapped 1 hymn for a 4th needle - since they're just that good for me.  I also swapped lotus petal for 1 strip mine.  It takes a bit off the speed, but hits all the non-Jace problem cards - waste, LoA, bazaar, karakas, maze of ith. I still prefer needles, but since I run 4 already, it's like a more limited needle #5.  I can't say enough for what effect needle has on almost every matchup.

My experience with Control v. DT from the control perspective is played for the long haul.  I happily trade bombs for bombs where I just do my best to keep the Hexmage off the board.  I set up an end of the turn Mystical/Vamp for Yawgmoth's Will and win from there, something DTimes can't interact with which is why I think Mental Misstep may be a good option.  With Leyline out it doesn't happen that way.  

Having them topdeck the win is rough, whether via tutor or just drawing yawg win.  Leyline prevents this WHEN you open with it in hand.  Again, it can be dead in several matches.  I did actually lose to a scenario where my opponent had snaps and yawg will and won.  G1/G2 he opened with LoA both games and I never drew a needle btw.  G1 he won with jaces, counters, and vault key and never touched his grave...next game he snapcastered twice and then drew yawg win.  Had I known he had snap/yawg, I'd have brought in cages, but after seeing what he played G1, Leylines would have been the first cards swapped out if I ran them.  I think the ability to hit snap/yawg, oath, tinkerbot, and dredge make cage more valuable overall than leyline.  So I use 4 of those in the sb.  Needle has been WAY more versatile than leyline, and had I drawn any, I could have stopped jace and/or LoA.

You are right, the build we have been testing is close to your mentioned version.  We haven't tested a heavy Pithing Needle version that scraps Wasteland and Leyline.  I was never convinced Needle was a better option against Dredge and Control but I could be convinced otherwise.  One of the problems we always had with DT was the inconsistency in the mana base, but we always liked the Wastelands to disrupt all match ups, though it does make the deck rely on the Urborgs.  I'm not sure if one is better than another, if your testing has proven good I will test it for myself.  A well timed Wasreland does cripple several decks though.  I've been on the receiving end of Wastelands that cut off a secondary color or hit the Workshop that prevents the four or five drops in Shops.

Really, the biggest thing I hated about wastelands (other than being totally dead vs basics/fetches) is that you are either running 5 less spells and can get mana flooded, or 5 less lands and can draw just colorless (esp if they waste urborg).  When you draw a needle at any time, there are good calls to shut off something.  When you draw a waste in the later game, they usually have several mana and you're not affecting much.  Waste might shut off a color, but often that splash color is black - which Urborgs give them right back.  Talk about shutting off a color, how about seeing their fetchlands off a duress and needling it?  Now not only can they not fetch their dual in the first place, you effectively made their deck -4 mana in one card.

It's not necessarily that needles are better than waste vs dredge, or better than control vs a 3 color deck...but they are very useful in both matches and in a ton of others.  I think they are probably LEAST useful in the non-welder shop decks, but they can still hit triskelion and such.  They always hit wastelands in that matchup though, which might be better than anything they could hit otherwise.  Nowadays they also hit buried ruins, which have taken the place of welder in many MUD builds.  It's just that needles are really dead only in 1% of cases, whereas wastelands can be dead in many and can really alter your mana over the course of a game.  Ever rip 2-3 wastelands when your opponent dropped basics/fetches and now you have no more than one black source?  It happens.

Phyrexian Revoker may be an option in DT if the Wastelands are kept.  The two drop may be too busy at that point though.  Now that I think about DT as being competitive I think we need to scrap our version and be willing to start over.  We had shelved it with the rise of shops and our inability to come close to besting it.

At best, revoker could find a sb slot, and really not even then.  Needle hits lands.  Wasteland, bazaar, maze, karakas, LoA are the biggest threats.  You'd need both wastes and revokers as you said, and then you might as well just play control MUD.  As I said before, the best use of a mana denial strategy is to capitalize with spheres.  Otherwise, they can just stockpile on basics and fetches and win on an apeshit turn.  attacking the hand and the mana halfway is not as good as going all in on hand OR mana disruption.

With the speed and resilience of fish decks and the aggressiveness and versatility of shop decks and the ridiculous amount of cheap counters available to control, I think a more aggro, streamlined build is the only way to go.  You have to have the ability to shift gears into aggro and away from the combo when they run too many answers.  Obliterator and bitterblossom and hippies help there.

this might be a silly suggestion but since you are running an aggro variant of DT have u considered hidden horror/unearth?

this gives you faster threats than obliterator that cant be bolted and also gives a way to return hex/bob/hyppi that have been killed/sacced/discarded by lil/horror. between 8 1cc discards 4 rits and X UNEARTH missteps wont be able to handle them all. hope it helps.

I really don't like hidden horror.  A vanilla 4/4 for 3 that costs a card isn't nearly as good as a 5/5 trample with no drawback that makes them lose their board by blocking for only 1 extra mana.  Besides, I'd have to pitch bob or hexmage most likely, and that's just bad.  

Unearth might be okay.  Not sure what to cut for them, but they could be alright.  Missteps shouldn't be able to handle everything I have anyway, and those unearths could be discard (pulling their counters/answers) or additional threats (that don't need me to have stuff in the grave).  

There is one deck I saw, a UW bomberman build, that really looks brutal.  4 plows, 3 misstep, 3 spell snare, 4 FoW, 4 drains, 4 Jace, aether spellbomb, and the trinket/auriok/combo package with access to EE (kills token), needle, cage, tormods.  I really don't see how ANY deck can beat it unless it gets crappy draws.  It has a counter for everything and an effect to kill what it doesn't counter.  Not sure how that's beatable with anything outside of a near mirror.  Even with leylines, it can just beat down and counter/plow everything you cast as well as disenchant/bounce the leyline and go combo.  Not to make this thread go in that direction, but I'd like to know how I could help my deck hedge against something that has a counter/answer for everything, 4 Jaces, and a combo where each piece is a killer on its own (auriok blocks 2/1s, lotus is speed, and aether kills token).

[TheWhiteDragon]

So, I saw someone playing a belcher list with draw 7s and underworld dreams.  The argument was that many decks draw to combo and run draw 7s.  Jace especially whacks himself with his brainstorm ability.  I found the bitterblossoms to be just too slow to really affect the game and I take so much damage already.  Is underworld dreams a decent 2-of in dark times?  I'm thinking if I can ritual one out on turn 1, then their draw spells all bite them so my smaller guys can deal the finishing damage.  On that same note, I could ritual out a hippy and deal 2 + a random discard over time.  The difference being that dreams is harder to remove and is good for at least 1 damage a turn, but could flat out kill them if they try to combo.  With FoWs, fetches, seizes, vamp, etc, decks take a lot of damage on their own.  If they're getting lightning bolted for every brainstorm, it could add up quick.

Thoughts?

**edit**

If UD is too slow or situational, what about phyrexian arena?  It's not as good as bob, but can cost less life in the long run, can be ritualed turn 1, and is a definite threat over time. It also dodges spell snare and flusterstorm and is much harder to remove than Bob.

[vaughnbros]

Chains of Mephistopheles just seems better than underworld dreams.  I don't think they will be casting draw spells at all if you drop that.

From your description of match ups it seems like you are not favored in any, and your weakest match up, workshops, is the most important in the current vintage meta game.  This is most likely the reason why this is no longer even a deck choice for most people.

I think in order to make this deck competitive again including a second color is necessary.  Red, green, or white would all provide the hate cards you need to win against workshops.  They would also increase the power level of your deck against other match ups.  And with the exclusion of wasteland it should not be difficult to build a solid 2 color mana base.  I know Sean Duffy had some success with a BG dark times deck a couple years ago that might be a good place to gain inspiration.

[TheWhiteDragon]

Chains of Mephistopheles just seems better than underworld dreams.  I don't think they will be casting draw spells at all if you drop that.

From your description of match ups it seems like you are not favored in any, and your weakest match up, workshops, is the most important in the current vintage meta game.  This is most likely the reason why this is no longer even a deck choice for most people.

I think in order to make this deck competitive again including a second color is necessary.  Red, green, or white would all provide the hate cards you need to win against workshops.  They would also increase the power level of your deck against other match ups.  And with the exclusion of wasteland it should not be difficult to build a solid 2 color mana base.  I know Sean Duffy had some success with a BG dark times deck a couple years ago that might be a good place to gain inspiration.

Chains does seem better against the draw-nuts decks.  I'm wondering if it's just dead vs many decks though.  I had the same concern vs shops, fish with UD - except at least they take one damage a turn.  With chains, it is a blank vs those decks, but good vs blue.  I'm thinking a card like P. Arena is not awesome vs anything, but never dead...and extra bobs that can't be easily removed have some merit.  I'd easily run 6 bobs in this deck, so 4 bobs and 2 arena might be worth a look.

My description of matchups has really been "matchup" and only 1 set vs said archetype (in which he drew the opening library both games and had ancestral both games, and got to play jace both games, and I never drew a pithing needle or the combo.)  I'd say that was a case of a not-easy matchup with a healthy shovelful of kick-in-the-nuts bad luck.  I have beaten blue decks many a time with DT, just not that game.  I have also been squashing burning wish lists with DT because I can quickly rip their bombs, can answer BSC, and they have very few counters/instant answers for EoT Merit Lage.

Shops is a tough match, but with the lilianas, bobs, basics, bitterblossoms, emissaries....I wouldn't say it's any worse match than it is for any other deck.  Yes, they can just sphere the nuts off me, but they can do that if I was holding a handful of ingot chewers too.  I've been shut out of games with red hate decks where I had chewers, welders, shamans, sprees...and just couldn't cast a damn thing.  Sometimes shops goes tomb, mox, sphere, chalice 0, pass...workshop, golem, pass...wasteland, tangle wire, pass....and I just sit there with my awesome hand and thumb  up my ass.  Nothing you can do about that outside of running FoW (and then you're fighting an uphill battle being on blue vs shops).  I'm not sure why you'd assume shops is my weakest matchup (though you'd be correct) other than because shops is EVERYBODY'S weakest matchup.  Hell, even oath and dredge have a bad matchup with shops thanks to cage, golem, and metamorph in print.  Shops will forever be the juggernaut (pardon the pun) in the room, so long as their strategy is to not let you cast anything.  Blue can do it better (counter everything) but not as consistently as shops.  Blue is not everyone's worst matchup (cavern of souls, vial, etc), but "your spells cost 50".dec is, especially when they have a cheap, efficient answer for every strategy.

And now off my "shops is king" soapbox and back to DT...

The matchups really aren't all that bad.  I never mention the games I bitchslap people, because that doesn't improve my deck.  I only mention the games I lose, whether by a lot or barely, because I need to win those matchups.  I have won many games vs many archetypes, but I don't need help with those, so they're a moot point.  I think this deck hasn't been a deck choice for most people because they ran lists with the 4 bob, 4 hexmage + less-than-4 depths with tutors, helmline combo as their only wins and those get easily disrupted.  Necro + tendrils really doesn't fit so well in this deck as a wincon, but more as a stall or life refresher or finisher when all else can't go the distance.  I don't recall seeing many others with a stronger aggro approach.  Also, I think most ran the null/crucible/waste suite to disrupt the hand a little and the mana a little, and not dedicate fully to discard, stopping wastes with pithing needles (again, I can't say enough for how awesome that card has been vs SO many killer cards).  I can't really say my list is better, since I haven't played it in tourneys yet, but it does play out differently.  In old DT lists, certain cards just really wrecked your day...but I can totally switch gears if the Merit plan goes bunk and just drop big ass obliterators and other threats.  I don't have to match wasteland for wasteland to get depths online.  I can drop 1 needle and call it a day.

With needles especially, stopping wasteland already anyway, I won't disagree that a second color may be beneficial.  I'm inclined to think any color but blue is best.  Blue works best as the primary color, and this deck can't do that.  I like red for its answers to artifacts, but I think it's biggest bombs are wheel, magus of moon, bolt...things this deck won't benefit much from.  Green seems nice if only for nature's claim and abrupt decay.  It opens up the sb.  Sylvan library could also be nice for a quick hand boost and nice with bobs.  I also considered a hex/depths in the board and 4 living wish main, but the deck really felt clunky and more reliant on the combo when I tried that. White has plows and disenchant, balance and serenity....all bombs.

What options do you think might help most if it stays all black?  Any good artifacts or black cards I'm missing?

If I add a color, which is best and why?  What cards will that color give me?

I'm also never really sold on the "X kills an artifact" argument, since shops can dump out several artifacts on turn 1, and when they get a couple spheres out, even ingot chewer is often uncastable.  I find 1-for-many answers like hurkyl's or trygon have been good answers, where natures claim, chewer, etc. are not so hot.  They take out 1-for-1 and that threat just gets replaced on the next turn after I have tapped out to pay for the chewer anyway.

[xouman]

Green seems the better color given those facts. 4 living wish allow you to play 1 hexmage, 1 dark depths and 1 parasite in the side, fetching for them to combo, as well as some silver bullets too, as a full land-pack (strip mine, bazaar, orchard, maze of ith, karakas...) or creatures (obliterator, fleshbag marauder, caustic wasps...). Green has solid artifact hate and black-green great overall permanents destruction. You can even switch obliterators and hippies for tarmos and sit on them. Silvan library is great itself and even better with confidant as you said.

With green you have a problem, since there are lots of interesting cards, that may 'pervert' current selection of cards, getting a full new deck.

[msg67183]

Another card that green gives is Pernicious Deed! It is insane. Also you might want to try Vampire Nighthawk, the life link and deathtouch make it pretty good against Shops.

[TheWhiteDragon]

Some changes if we go with green...

// Lands
    4. Verdant catacombs
    3  Dark Depths
    1. Strip mine
    2  Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
    3  Swamp
    3. Bayou
    1. Forest

// Creatures
    4  Dark Confidant
    3  Vampire Hexmage
    4. Tarmgoyf
    1 vamp nighthawk/stinkweed imp/basilisk collar

// Spells
    4  Duress
    1  Demonic Consultation
    1  Demonic Tutor
    1  Vampiric Tutor
    4  Dark Ritual
    4. Living wish
    1  Black Lotus
    1  Mox Jet
    1. Mox emerald
    1. Lotus petal
    4  Thoughtseize
    3  Pithing Needle
    1  Yawgmoth's Will
    1  Liliana of the Veil
    1. Abrupt decay
    2. Sylvan library
   

// Sideboard. (16 shown)
SB: 3. Nature's claim
SB: 1. Phyrexian revoker
SB: 1  Null Rod
SB: 1  viridian zealot???
SB: 1  Gatekeeper of Malakir
SB: 1  bog (the one that rfgs a grave)
SB: 1  pernicious deed???
SB: 4  Grafdigger's Cage
SB: 1 wasteland
SB: 1 vampire hexmage
SB: 1 dark depths


I like the tarmgoyfs and sylvans and flexibility of green...

However, I'm not sure living wish is good.  You'd think it offers more consistent combos, but you draw less of either half in hand or throughout the game and are now dependant on a 2cc, green mana, sorcery to get 1 piece more often than not.  You get more maindeck answers, but the sb feels weaker and more random. It also forces you to draw more situational tutors than good threats or answers.  We could add back in the depth/hexmage from the SB, make a better sb, and then add another maindeck abrupt decay and a nature's claim or liliana for example.

Thoughts on the change in general?  Other ideas?

Some things to note is that while I get tarm/sylvan, I lose a liliana, a needle, and 5 discard effects overall as well as well as null rods to accommodate petal and emerald to get faster green.  It's basically +10/-10 not counting land swaps with swamps.

[credmond]

I would ditch living wish altogether. You lose too much tempo with that card. Go to 4 x claim in sideboard. Go 2 x abrupt decay (uncounterable is good) and put the singleton pernicious deed in the main deck (a nuke switch is good).

[TheWhiteDragon]

I would ditch living wish altogether. You lose too much tempo with that card. Go to 4 x claim in sideboard. Go 2 x abrupt decay (uncounterable is good) and put the singleton pernicious deed in the main deck (a nuke switch is good).

Agreed.  Wish doesn't add what it really should.  So the list would look more like:

// Lands
    4. Verdant catacombs
    4  Dark Depths
    1. Strip mine
    2  Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
    3  Swamp
    3. Bayou
    1. Forest

// Creatures
    4  Dark Confidant
    4  Vampire Hexmage
    4. Tarmgoyf
    1 vamp nighthawk/stinkweed imp/basilisk collar

// Spells
    4  Duress
    1  Demonic Consultation
    1  Demonic Tutor
    1  Vampiric Tutor
    4  Dark Ritual
    1  Black Lotus
    1  Mox Jet
    1. Mox emerald
    1. Lotus petal
    4  Thoughtseize
    3  Pithing Needle
    1  Yawgmoth's Will
    2  Liliana of the Veil
    2. Abrupt decay
    2. Sylvan library
   

// Sideboard. (16 shown)
SB: 4  Nature's claim
SB: 2  Deglamer
SB: 2 Abrupt Decay
SB: 1  Null Rod
SB: 1  Gatekeeper of Malakir
SB: 1  pernicious deed
SB: 4  Grafdigger's Cage

So it's basically the same as mono-black except the critters drop faster (but aren't as devastating sometimes), and we added 2 situational removal instead of 2 discard effects, and we added secondary color moxen instead of 2 null rods, and we added 2 sylvan library instead of necro/arena.  Did I miss anything?  Is it worth it to run 2 colors to make these switches?  It seems we've basically swapped the green version of the same things black has, but now added the element of color screw.  The one positive is the sb.  I think abrupt/claim (and to a lesser extent, deed) are nice additions.  I miss the extra discard though.  Also, I hate drawing swamps/depths/urborgs and topdecking tarmgoyfs/sylvans.

How do we fix this??

Does mono black have any similar effects to deed, decay, claim, tarm?  I think arenas is a fine swap for sylvan actually as it can turn 1 off a ritual and gets you more cards with less life cost over time.  I think the removal for things like oath and spheres are the bigger issue.  What can black/artifact do on its own to solve those problems?  Would ratchet bomb be better than null rod, at least in the sb?  I think BG is viable like we listed, but I haven't given up on monoblack having access to answers either.

Thoughts?

[serracollector]

personally i would -1 syivan and add necro back in. true they dont work well together but necro is better and restricted so give it its 1 slot. i would also consider -1 depths and add 1 wasteland/extra fetch alongside 2-4 deathrite shaman to help w color issues along w some lifegain/damage. maybe in the place of your nighthawk slot and -1/2 goyfs for 2/3 dr shaman. also i would still consider 1 underworld dreams in sb for 4 jace.deck - landstill - burningwsh/grisleoath.dec. hope this helps. have you tested unearth yet alongside lil? seems it could be very useful even as a one of for hexes sacced to kill jace or countered etc also although situational unearth lets u combo out around chalice at 2 (cast vamp let it get countered then unearth it ftw etc)

[xouman]

dr shaman was also on my mind when giving up wishes. however I see it more focused on control, but adds little to combo. The exeption could be opening with

T1:fetch->shaman, T2:darkdepths,land+shaman onto hexmage,

or just

T1:fetch->shaman, T2:land, discard+confidant

Instead playing 3/4 tarmo, why not try 1 scavenging ooze? tarmo is more combat oriented and is probably better in this deck, but ooze can gain life (really interesting in this deck) and hoses some strategies.

[serracollector]

my pt was turn 1 swamp dr shaman turn 2 waste and still cast goyf bob or hex or it helps power out lil/necro w/out rit or just provides green mana when needed. dont forget shaman gains life as well.

[credmond]

Death rite shaman plus Goyf and Lilliana is a pretty good plan B that can totally dominate the aggro matchup. Shaman is a great foil to the wasteland.dec and you can lighten up on the pithing needles as a result.

[TheWhiteDragon]

Death rite shaman plus Goyf and Lilliana is a pretty good plan B that can totally dominate the aggro matchup. Shaman is a great foil to the wasteland.dec and you can lighten up on the pithing needles as a result.

I'm not sure if the aggro match is the one we needed help with.  A 20/20 is big enough to handle any critter, and obliterator basically reads "opponent's critters dare not attack." Goyf can be a big wall or attack, but without the support of a ton of other critters and exalted critters, it's not going to handle the army of fish w/ plows any more than a monoblack version could.  The bonus is it's ability to sneak in through spheres and be a viable attack to blue control.

Shaman may help color smooth, but color smoothing is only needed with 2 colors - so while it may be nice in 2 color, it's not necessarily an upgrade to 1 color.  It situationally adds speed, but a ritual does as much.  The disruption is nice though.  I don't see it as an answer to wastelands though. It gets around a wasted bayou, but with 1 color, wastelands couldn't hit your mana anyway.  Waste recursion isn't really an issue anyway, especially with 1 color.  The problem of wasteland is 1 in play basically reads "kill target Merit Lage combo", not "kill target mana".  For that reason, even 4 shamans won't negate the need to max out on needles (or your own wastes if you prefer that route).

That said, I think goyf gives a nice attacker to plan B for control, where obliterator is slower since it's emakrul effect is almost never utilized because there is no combat. Shaman can help vs snapcaster builds, but only if they don't use their removal on that first and then your other critter. Even still, it's mana and ins/sorc removal abilities are bigger than the critter removal effect, so if shaman does prove good, it's just as good in monoblack.

If necro is as good as sylvan (and maybe even arena), it really comes down to 1) the removal spells, and 2) the cheap giant critters.  Does black have anything as big/cheap as goyf, and any black/artifact answer to oath/artifacts?

[serracollector]

nevs disk is about you best bet. lots of black cheap beef.

[msg67183]

For a beater you could try Death's Shadow. With Thoughtsiezes, Bobs, Hex Parasites maybe, and Necro he should be pretty big.

[TheWhiteDragon]

For a beater you could try Death's Shadow. With Thoughtsiezes, Bobs, Hex Parasites maybe, and Necro he should be pretty big.

I tried death's shadow before I found obliterator.  Obliterator is like a moat...even a larger tarmgoyf won't swing when you have PO untapped.  They won't block either.  Losing 5+ permanents is a beating to most decks.  Shadow is not as good for the reasons that 1) it's just a beater with no abilities or evasion, 2) it's not even castable in your first several turns as it enters a 0/0 until later, 3) it's a small weenie, 3/3 or less, unless you're on death's door, which allow you to be raced with a weenie army, 4) is terrible vs control, who tend to kill in one fell swoop instead of over time - so Shadow goes from uncastable to too late in one turn.  Tarmgoyf can deal big damage fast to control, sneaking under the counters.  It also happens to be good in the aggro match.  Oblitertor is amazing in the aggro match, but it's a bit slower vs control.  I tried 4 DS as my first critters, and often they sat in hand until I had 4 mana (or often after with rituals) anyway.  In which case, obliterator was almost always better. Hippies have the evasion and are faster and have a nice effect vs control, but they are weak, boltable, and terrible in the aggro match.  I'm looking for something like a 2 mana 4/4 or 3/5 with some ability that is worthwhile.  Maybe even a 4/5 or 3/4 flier for 3 mana with some decent ability would be fine.

If I can find those, then we can look at removal options next.

[serracollector]

you could always try hunted horror the 7/7 trampler for  . if you maindeck ratchet bombs or get an early lil or have abrupt decays its drawback is negligible sice the trample damage goes over even if they block with a token. if you stick w green then maindecking pernicious deed is also an option that can remove the tokens.

[TheWhiteDragon]

you could always try hunted horror the 7/7 trampler for   . if you maindeck ratchet bombs or get an early lil or have abrupt decays its drawback is negligible sice the trample damage goes over even if they block with a token. if you stick w green then maindecking pernicious deed is also an option that can remove the tokens.

If I went with green, i'd just run tarms and call it a day, so no need for deed or decay.  The idea is to avoid needing a second color if black has an option.  Ratchets are nice and versatile, but bad with null rod - and null rod has been great.  Esp with bomberman rearing its head, null rods have value, which makes ratchet much worse.  Right now, I have 3 obliterator main, which seems to help vs fishy things, but still isn't fast vs control or cheap vs spheres.  Horror doesn't work in that they can just block with both tokens, making him 1 damage a turn vs control...much slower than obliterator.
The 4 emissary and bitterblossom in the sb seem to help vs shops, but are still not something as good as i'd like one trike or hellkite or metamorph nuetralizes emissary and bitterblossoms are slow. I was considering basilisk collar, as it makes any critter lethal to golems, and is a beating with hexmage's first strike.  Again, it doesn't speed up the clock vs control, and null rod hurts it.  I just figured it is not only a great critter answer, but also mitigates my own life loss.

[TheWhiteDragon]

So in line with this thought, are there any good colorless/black answers to either critters or artifacts that can be played through shop's prison?  I've tried dismember and slaughter pact so far.  dismember hasn't been as good as thought, cause it normally costs me 3+ 4 life to take out a golem.  Sometimes I just can't get to 3.  slaughter pact usually costs 2 to cast, but then I can pay the upkeep of 3 regardless of spheres/tangles.  There are games where even 0 is too slow though.  Any ideas?  I think killing the golems are a good thing as they remove a sphere and buy me time vs their clock...but I'm starting to think that only FoW or dredge type tactics will work vs shops.  If 0 is too expensive, then I don't know what to do.  Also, pact gets shut off with chalice @0 - however I only run two 0cc spells, so they're shooting themselves in the foot if they drop chalice @0.

How can i kill golems or other artifacts when 0 is too costly?  Misstep doesn't hit anything.  Are there any phyrexian mana spells that cost 0 after life cost and kill artifacts/critters?

[TheWhiteDragon]

So if we add red - 2 badlands and maybe a SB mountain - what else can we add/remove to help vs the shops match and maybe even the blue matchup.  Here's what I've been trying most recently:

// Lands
    4  Bloodstained Mire
    4  Dark Depths
    2  Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
    6  Swamp
    1  Strip Mine
    2  Badlands

// Creatures
    4  Dark Confidant
    4  Vampire Hexmage
    2  Phyrexian Obliterator

// Spells
    4  Duress
    1  Demonic Consultation
    1  Demonic Tutor
    1  Vampiric Tutor
    4  Dark Ritual
    1  Black Lotus
    1  Mox Jet
    4  Thoughtseize
    3  Pithing Needle
    2  Liliana of the Veil
    2  Null Rod
    3  Phyrexian Arena
    1  Basilisk Collar
    1  Darkblast
    2  Mental Misstep

// Sideboard
SB: 1  Null Rod
SB: 1  Basilisk Collar
SB: 1  Sadistic Sacrament
SB: 4  Grafdigger's Cage
SB: 1  Extirpate
SB: 1  Ratchet Bomb
SB: 1  Red Elemental Blast
SB: 2  Ingot Chewer
SB: 1  Mountain
SB: 2  Rakdos Charm

So the big things to note:

1) I'm back to 3 needles.  While they are awesome and needed, I have more card draw and also counters for their missteps, so they are drawn more and in play more vs decks where they are really needed (jace/bomberman/waste).
2) More card draw in 3 Phyrexian Arena's.  One fringe benefit is a pithing needle can't lock me out of draws for good.  It's happened vs bomberman where I drop necro to refill my hand, they drop trinket and needle, now I have no draw forever.  Arena also allows me to keep my draw phase while netting me more cards at 1 life per card.  It is overall the same life cost as bob, but is not easily killable.  When it sticks, it is basically a one-sided howling mine until the game ends.  I have cut 2 notable cards to add 2 more arenas:
2a) No Yawg Will.  Yawg will is often only good later when the game is stalled.  But then I usually get a ritual, some discard, a land, and maybe a hexmage off it.  With Null rod, I don't even get the lotus replay.  And with cutting tendrils (which really was too costly, slow, and ineffective), yawg will becomes even worse.  Early game, yawg will is a total waste where arena starts getting me advantage from the getgo.  With spheres in play, I just need to beef up my mana once to drop arena and then reap free benefits, whereas yawg will is almost unplayable with a single sphere in play since you can't recast anything afterward.  Yawg will is also hit by fluster/pierce, which arena is immune to.
2b) No necropotence.  The pithing needle deal sucks, but it's not the reason I don't run this.  The big reason is that it is not so hot in the first couple turns, where I really need to start surmounting an advantage.  Sometimes you draw 16 and whiff.  If you try to use it as a hand refiller, you can draw 7 fast (but usually after turn 3 or so), but then you have no draw step.  This deck, outside of the combo, is usually not explosive enough to win off a draw 7.  Also, drawing 1 every turn is a nice combination with liliana.  Necro can go nuts, but for more consistency and an immediate advantage without going "all in", I like the arenas.
3) Added two missteps.  They're useful at stopping plows mostly, but also hit 1cc counters that hit my spells.  Hitting fastbond and ancestral and all the other 1cc niceties is cool too, though they can be just dead in hand at times.  In those cases though, they are liliana fodder, so it is tolerable.  I cut 1 hymn and 1 hippie for them.  I miss those cards at times, but I feel a bit "safer" with a 0 cost answer to some big problem cards.
4) basilisk collar/darkblast.  BC is random and not good with null rods...however, it is exactly what I want vs certain decks.  It eases the pain of losing 1 obliterator as now my 2/1s can take out tarmgoyfs and golems.  Also, on a hexmage, the collar can kill things without killing my vampire.  First strike + deathtouch = awesome.  The biggest difference, besides costing 1 vs 4, is that the lifelink can erase bob/arena/fetch/TSZ/vamp pain.  It does what tendrils originally did, but better and cheaper.  If I want null rod, I just pitch collar to liliana.  If I want collar, I hold the rods (at least until after it's equipped).  It seems the decks I want collar against, null rod isn't necessary, and vice versa.  Darkblast not only removes snapcaster/bob for my opponent, but also drops golem to a 4/2 unexpectedly to kill with a hexmage or trade with a bob.  DB also kills bobs near the end game when I have enough threats and the life loss adds up.

Now I tried to splash red.  I have 2 badlands to get with my 4 fetches, and a basic mountain in the sb for when I really want the red.  i think not running anything main that is red has mitigated my concern of mana screw.  I am SLIGHTLY more vulnerable to wastelands, with 6 basics instead of 8, but that's not bad.  The sb, I have 1 REB to help vs blue, 2 chewers and 2 rakdos charm vs shops (and charm helps vs warrens/dredge).  The 2 chewers are to dodge chalice @1 or 2 (both huge problems) and thorns.  The 2 rakdos, while affected by thorns, are not affected by tangle wire, which is just as big a threat.  With tangles and metamorphs locking down my lands on upkeep, it's often easier to get 3 mana on my upkeep than 1 mana in my main phase.  Also, I face more aggro versions of shops a lot with precursor golems, and chewer doesn't kill golems.  Lightning bolts seem good, but chalice @1 is the common play (which hits all my discard, acceleration, needles, and tutors), and they also run wurmcoils which really none of the spells are good against.  I'm not sure what I can do with red.

With swapping to green, as stated, I could add 4 tarmgoyf and a couple main abrupt decay.  The obliterators would become tarms, as would 1 needle and maybe 1 other card.  The 2 missteps would be 2 decays.  SB, I'd have claims and decays.  I then run into the issue of maindeck mana screw, but I think I'd go up to 4 bayous and be okay.  Arenas would still be better than sylvan, and basilisk collar on a tarmgoyf seems nice.

I could add white - then run serenities, plows, disenchants.  Probably better vs oath, but not much edge vs shops as red, and not as good vs blue as red.  RIP is almost unnecessary given cages and needles anyway.

Blue isn't an option as I'd quickly end up with recall, walk, hurkylls, fow...and then just play a blue deck with a black splash.  Turbo tezz or bomberman.

So I think the options are to:

A) make mono black work.  This is my preference for mana consistency.
B) splash red for SB cards only (maybe a couple main red cards at most) to avoid color screw and wasteland resilience.  I'd prefer no more than 2 badlands since there's not enough main worthy cards i think to warrant a playset and opening up more vulnerability to wastelands. We'd need more solid red options I think though.
C) splash green, with up to 3 or 4 bayous and perhaps a basic forest, add 4 main tarms and 2 abrupt decay, and have a heavier green sb.  Admittedly, this is probably the best option as it adds quick beats to hit blue and shops with a great weapon in abrupt decay...unfortunately, I own ruby, not emerald, and all the red cards - including bloodstained mire/badlands - but not any green.  While it may make it the best version of the deck if we can't make red or monoblack work, I have to consider the cost of +1 emerald, +4 verdant catacombs, +4 bayou, +4 tarmgoyf, +4 abrupt decay.  I could probably drop another 50-100 on more black/red cards to make the deck better, but adding another $800+ really hurts.