The Dark Times Primer

[2nd_lawl]

I would NOT cut consultation, it is the most powerful card in the deck.  In a year of playing the deck I have never killed myself with it when going for Dark Depths, And have only died to it twice while going for a desperation 1-of. It is one of the best cards ever printed and One of the premier reasons to play the deck: it is one of the few combo decks in the format that can take advantage of this card.  If you want another card to cut instead: pithing needle is my suggestion.  Also I think crop rotation is pointless/poor why would you take out one powerful 1 mana tutor for a weak one that does a fraction as much plus gets you 2-for1'd when its countered?  Darkblast main right now isnt very good, as it doesn't kill trygon. Im not sure what loam does either? You dont have free turns to cast 2 mana do-nothings with this deck. You are trying to find a hole and then blow them out, This isn't a control deck.  Goyf wont be big enough vs stax either, as it is hard to get anything besides land and sorcery in the yard, plus it has anti-synergy with leyline.  They might be okay in the fish matchup, but I think I would rather just have perish.

edit: what im getting at here, and in my last post is simply this: To me your suggestions indicate to me that You haven't actually played the deck, and are just making off the cuff suggestions and changing the list for its own sake. I am certainly open to the suggestion of a second color, but if you had played the deck extensively you would know that life from the loam for example is really going to be a poor choice for this deck.  This deck is NOT trying to compete the blue decks in card advantage. What it is trying to do is compete with them in card "relevance" - that means taking their best card(either offensive or defensive), and following it up with a game ending threat, or mana-screwing them and deploying a game ending threat.  If they neutralize the threat, repeat the process.  No amount of loams is ever going to let you compete with blue decks in card advantage.

As I wrote, i wanted to improve the deck in the Workshop Aggro and Oath machtup. We also have quite a bit Noble Fish around still playing Selkie. So: Tarmogoyf (after boarding there are enoughe creatures and Instants in this deck) is good against Fish and Shops and Claim is good against Shops and Oath (better than Phyrexian Tower or  Emissary imo). Darklast is good against Fish and more flexible against Control (when they have multiple Confidants or Welders). Remember: I play in my meta, not in yours. And here People play Natures Claim maindeck over Trygon in many cases.

The Deck plays lots of singletons and I want to have the possibility to go for them with my tutors. While playing the deck (yes, I tested the deck quite a lot, but I want to improve it before actualy playing it in our tournament) I very often hated Consultation in my hand, when I seriously wanted one of the singletons like Helm or Will. Thats my expericence and I modified the list for that reason.

If either of those cards are going to win you the game instantly, then its just correct to consult for them, unless you feel that you are so far ahead that your chance to win is greater than like 80% by consulting for something else. I have consulted for singletons many times while playing the deck, and the math is in your favor, as long as you are getting a singleton that wins you the game within the next 2 turns. Again I dont see this as a downside for the card, I see it as an upside.  Consultation can often win you games that no other card can. In the report I wrote, In g3 of the t8 I needed to rip consultation for the win, none of the other tutors would have done it.

Loam is a very good comeback card for this deck, that improves the mana denial route and can bring you back one of your combo reasons. For what reason do you play Crucible? I guess for the same. My version is still a combo deck with an aggro-control backup plan and I just strengthen the second route a bit with Loam which interacts perfectly with Crop Rotation. Your list is definately also a combo deck with an aggro-control backup plan, not a pure combo deck so the inclusions makes sense, it is just a matter of playstyle. I very often like my opponents to use all their ressoures to stop my combo and then aggro-control them out. Especially against control this route works perfectly. You say, I can't beat control by card advantage. I say I can beat control by mana denial and for that Loam does help a lot. It actually can't get countered and it isn't stopped by Claim or Trygon.

You do NOT want to extend the game against control, especially tez, unless you have bob active. The difference between Loam & crucible, is that crucible allows you to advance your gamestate while it is active, while loam forces you to skip draws, and pay 2 over and over. The deck operates fine on 2-3 mana, and you cant really utilize additional mana for any kind of advantage in any matchup besides shops. Which brings me to the second point about crucible: it is much much much better than loam in the workshop matchup. I view crucible as a "combo peice" in the deck, especially vs tez/jace post board where you are likely to have null rod. Striplocking tez under null rod is going to win you the game 95% of the time.  This deck does not function well as an aggro control deck because it cant beat your opponent's topdecks: you have no way to deal with them simply ripping bombs off the top. Even if you have your tez opponent on 0 cards, all they have to do is rip tinker or whatever to come back. That's not the game you want to play. You want to leave them with a 2 spell peirces in hand, then make a 20/20 and say "rip or lose."

You suggested in your opening post that you are open for splashes. But to me it seems you just want to discuss little modifications of your mono black list. Thats fine but then say so. Cheers

not true at all, I am very interested to see if people can get splashes to work.  Perhaps you interpreted my post as some kind of personal attack, which it wasn't. I have 9 months worth of tournament experience with this deck, and we are on the same side here, but I didn't create this thread to say "here is a starting point" I created it to say "here is a finished deck that I have had continual tournament success with" of course like all decks, it needs to grow and change to stay competitive, but that doesn't mean that the first thing you should do is to tear out some of the best cards, jam in some cards that look good on paper and claim you are "improving it."  At least consider my commentary regarding your changes as constructive criticism instead of jumping to conclusions and accusing me of "protecting my ugly baby".  Most of the cards that Have been suggested here Have been tested by me, and are purposely omitted, for proof of this, check out the list that I won Bluebell with on January 2nd. Furthermore you claim your changes are better as a matter of playstyle: well I disagree, The quickest way to lose with this deck is to assume the control role and give your opponent a bunch of free drawsteps.  This deck isn't the rock,  and rock style decks arent viable in vintage because your opponents are playing cards that say "2u: win" and "4BB: win" etc.

If a splash is going to work, it has to serve the interests of the deck, and this deck is first and foremost a combo deck.  I think nature's claim is an excellent reason to go for the green splash, I dont think loam is, I dont think crop rot is, and Goyf is fine in a vacuum, but I dont think it is good in the current meta, nor do i think sideboarding a generic creature is "high impact" enough to warant a sideboard slot. One of the main problems with the shop matchup is chalice @ 2. Cutting a emissary, which is always going to be "bigger" than goyf and can be played against a chalice 2 makes no sense.

 

[Phele]

Good argmuents, thanks for the insight. I still think that a green splash at least for Natures Claim is a good thing (Chalice 2, Oath, Shops in general), but you obviously have more experience with the deck so I need further testing.

[vrl]

as i mentioned before i ve made several tests with this deck and i believe going monoblack is the best possible route. i may be wrong because i am a little bit stubborn with the mono black all these years but this archetype is competitive. i made some minor changes to the md. here is the list.
4 Dark Ritual
4 Dark Confidant
4 Leyline of the Void
4 Vampire Hexmage
4 Duress
4 Thoughtseize
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Imperial Seal
1 Demonic Consultation
1 Null Rod
1 Pithing Needle
1 Helm of Obedience
1 Yawgmoth’s Will
1 Sadistic Sacrament
3 Diabolic Edict
1 Mox Jet
1 Black Lotus
1 Lotus Petal
1 Necropotence
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
2 Dark Depths
2 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
10 Swamp
1 Bojuka Bog

from the playtesting, i made i can see that max s built is very close to optimal. i found that TPS is a trouble we can solve mainly with the use of sadistic sacrament thats why i included it in place of crucible. bojuka bog in my opinion is a card we must use. for the sideboard i had a little different approach as i was already using 1 egineered explosives. i playtested really hard vs dredge where i saw that the inclusion of 4 ghost quarter isn t that helpful as i was expecting. so i ended up with 2 ghost quarter in the sideboard mainly because of MUD where that card really shines. destroying a workshop with this is like shutting down 3 moxes. consider also that null rod when on the draw is a card you cant cast easy. For MUD the inclusion of 4 emissary of despair is crucial for our survival.
so a part of the sideboard consists:
4 emissary of despair
2 ghost quarter
2 yixlid jailer
1 engineered explosives
1 darkblast
1 perish.

These are 11 cards. now we must include additional hate vs tps, aggrojace (GenCon champion) and oath. about fish i can t say much it. i agree with max' s approach.
i may sound heretic but i can t find a way including 2- 3 null rods. i am afraid that sad sac is the best possible answer at least vs tps and oath. null rod is great on the play in contrast with sad sac. i know that this approach is beyond logic but i would like to have your thoughts. i am thinking that the 1 null sod in the main can serve its role as a silver bullet when on the play via the use of tutors. Please dont ban me for this thought! as for the last 1-2 slots what do you say about a copy of forbidden orchard and 1 additional engineered explosives? this could act as an additional hate vs fish too. max i would like to hear your opinion.

[sassfactor4]

regarding chains

having just read this article http://wizards.com/Magic/Magazine/Article.aspx?x=judge/article/20040910b

I think I understand how the card works now finally :p

In terms of its usefulness:  Aside from convincing your opponent not to play ancestral / brainstorm / jace's +0, and having a slight bonus in making cold eye selkie fairly awful,  am I missing something major about how it can be utilized?

Thanks!

[Delha]

In terms of its usefulness:  Aside from convincing your opponent not to play ancestral / brainstorm / jace's +0, and having a slight bonus in making cold eye selkie fairly awful,  am I missing something major about how it can be utilized?

Not just those cards, ANY card with a draw component. That means Thirst, Ponder, Preordain, Top, Bargain, Jar, Wheel, Twister, Meditate, Remora, Repeal, Lat-Nam's, See Beyond, SoFI, and whatever else I might have forgotten. When you consider that list, it sounds a lot more impressive, no? Chains is pretty much bad news for any blue control deck, and often for combo as well.

Offhand, Confidant, Necro, and AdNaus are two of the only cards I can think of that see play and get around Chains. In fairness, decks running Bazaar or the like don't really get hurt the same way, and Chains might actually good for them.

[sassfactor4]

haha yes it does seem a lot more impressive with the full list.  I think i'll give it a whirl in testing and see how it goes.  Not too concerned with it in this deck vs dredge being worse than a dead card.

[zeus-online]

.

[Delha]

You forgot Fact or fiction - Or perhaps you thought it didn't matter?

Yep, forgot it.

Edit: Fixed quote formatting.

[brianpk80]

Dark Times is a very good deck.  A solid colorless sideboard option for the MUD match-up is Mishra's Factory.  If the Emissary of Despair is critical and Chalice @2 is a huge problem, an AEther Vial or two in the sb may also help the match-up. 

[MagicMan]

Dark Times is a very good deck.  A solid colorless sideboard option for the MUD match-up is Mishra's Factory.  If the Emissary of Despair is critical and Chalice @2 is a huge problem, an AEther Vial or two in the sb may also help the match-up. 

Hmmm not bad suggestions and def worth trying.

2nd Law, any update on your revamped SB yet?

[Djinn]

What do you guys think of the inclusion of a Tombstalker or two main deck?  I think the deck could benefit of some threatening beats aside from 2 power creatures.

[Prospero]

What do you guys think of the inclusion of a Tombstalker or two main deck?  I think the deck could benefit of some threatening beats aside from 2 power creatures.

Tombstalker + Dark Confidant = GG

I've probably played more games against Dark Times than the average guy.  I've never seen a game state where Tombstalker would have proven itself beneficial to him.

[Reckoner]

I am considering taking this deck to the local weekly sanctioned tournament, but I have a couple questions. I have done some playtesting with the deck, but mostly against Tezzeret, MUD, Red Stax, Ichorid (kind of a joke), and Oath; however, most of the decks that will be at the tournament are not going to be powered and will be a bit random. Does anyone have tournament experience against random decks, or have you been playing in proxy tournaments with a more established metagame? I am thinking that the match-ups should be mostly good because of how quickly this deck can assemble a game ending combo with at least one piece of hand disruption, but any input would be good. Also, I know of at least one other person who will be bringing Dark Times to the event. Does anyone have experience in or tips for the mirror? On the bright side, I don't think anyone other than myself owns a playset of shops, so no MUD/Stax.

[Explosive Engineer]

I am considering taking this deck to the local weekly sanctioned tournament, but I have a couple questions. I have done some playtesting with the deck, but mostly against Tezzeret, MUD, Red Stax, Ichorid (kind of a joke), and Oath; however, most of the decks that will be at the tournament are not going to be powered and will be a bit random. Does anyone have tournament experience against random decks, or have you been playing in proxy tournaments with a more established metagame? I am thinking that the match-ups should be mostly good because of how quickly this deck can assemble a game ending combo with at least one piece of hand disruption, but any input would be good. Also, I know of at least one other person who will be bringing Dark Times to the event. Does anyone have experience in or tips for the mirror? On the bright side, I don't think anyone other than myself owns a playset of shops, so no MUD/Stax.

bitterblossom is great in the mirror

[Killane]

I am considering taking this deck to the local weekly sanctioned tournament, but I have a couple questions. I have done some playtesting with the deck, but mostly against Tezzeret, MUD, Red Stax, Ichorid (kind of a joke), and Oath; however, most of the decks that will be at the tournament are not going to be powered and will be a bit random. Does anyone have tournament experience against random decks, or have you been playing in proxy tournaments with a more established metagame? I am thinking that the match-ups should be mostly good because of how quickly this deck can assemble a game ending combo with at least one piece of hand disruption, but any input would be good. Also, I know of at least one other person who will be bringing Dark Times to the event. Does anyone have experience in or tips for the mirror? On the bright side, I don't think anyone other than myself owns a playset of shops, so no MUD/Stax.

I've played this a few times at my local shop, which has lots of randoms. You slaughter them. Randoms rarely have good ways of dealing with the Token except for StpS which is not that hard to play around, and they NEVER have good ways of dealing with Obeyline (why randoms who show up to Vintage events never bring Null Rods is beyond me).

That said, I've never played the mirror, but Bitterblossm does seem like it woud be quite good, infinitely blocking the token and being impossible for them to remove.

[Jakgotbak]

I've run this deck in three tournaments so far to some moderate success.  I placed top 8 in a Superstars Mox Tourney, Top 4 of the Vintage Champs Prelim at Gen Con, but only ran a 4-3 record in the actual Vintage Champs event.

I absolutely love the deck, but there's something that bothers me about the stock build, and it's this:

The thought of playing Helm/Leyline maindeck in a Vintage tournament makes me feel nauseous.

I realize maindeck Leylines turn the Dredge matchup into some kind of sick joke.  But against many decks, they're marginal at best, and against some decks they're straight-up dead draws.  So is it worth it to completely own one fringe matchup (Dredge) while a very popular archetype (MUD) takes us to the woodshed?

To be fair, I only ran the deck as Mono-Black in my first tournament, so maybe some players with more time behind the deck can share some insights about these cards, because I'm just not seeing it.  For the combo to even be doable, you kind of need to turn-0 the leyline, otherwise we're talking 9 mana to get this bad-boy going.  So let's say you have the T0 leyline in your opener, maybe you even have the Helm, but no fast mana.  Are you okay with your win condition activating on turn 5?  Even turn 5 here assumes you never get a land Wasted or choose to Waste a land yourself.  What if you have the T0 Leyline and no Helm?  Are you now prepared to start burning tutors to put this combo together instead of HexDepths?  And if you don't go for the Helm, that T0 Leyline is basically a mulligan, while a Helm by itself in your opener is almost assuredly a mulligan.  Anytime I drew a Leyline or a Helm after turn 1,  I wanted to punch something very hard.  Flipping one of these spells to Bob is adding injury to the insult.  In the one tournament in which I ran Helm, I only went for it once.  That happened to be against Dredge, a matchup where I'm obviously going to mulligan into Leyline.  Against everyone else, however, either side of the Helm/Leyline combo turned into a mulligan (by that I mean my "7" card hand only really had 6 useable cards in it).

I feel like this deck runs a lot of fair-ish cards in an unfair format (sorcery speed hand disruption, Wasteland effects that often slow down our development just as much as our opponents').  Add to this a number of tutorable silver bullets and fast-mana accelerants that are great early game but not so great late game, and you end up with a deck that can find itself drawing dead a lot, in a format where every card you or your opponent draws is of critical importance.  I can't bring myself to run five more dead draws in the form of Helm/Leyline. 

The problem, I realize, with removing Helm and Leyline is that you are taking out Plan B, and making the deck all about Plan A.  We know that Bob beatdown is not really a viable strategy, so I feel like any move away from Helm/Leyline needs to do one of two things: provide an alternate Plan B win condition, or make Plan A as brokenly streamlined as possible.  Here are the things I've tried so far:

GREEN SPLASH - When you just want a good plan B

I played a friendly Vintage game against Conley Woods once.  He was playing MUD, and I asked him "Everyone seems to be afraid of playing against Workshops.  What are Workshops afraid of playing against?"

He said, simply, "Tarmogoyfs."

After my first tourney at Superstars, I axed the Helm and moved the Leylines to the sideboard.  In their place, I added 4 Tarmogoyfs and a Mox Emerald.  I suddenly felt like the MUD matchup was as unloseable as Dredge had once been. The first 'Goyf you play will usually trade with a 5/3, buying you lots of time against a deck that really only runs 8 threats.  The second goyf tends to be a 5/6, and at that point you really can't lose.

Nature's Claim out of the board gives you even more game against 'Shops, and helps with the Chalice-at-2 problem the rest of the deck has.  Claim is also good against Oath, a match-up admittedly made a little bit worse by the 'Goyfs.

My local shop is running its first Vintage event this Sunday, so I'm dusting off the Dark Depths again and getting ready to crush with some 20/20s.  There will be a lot of first-time Vintage players in the room, many of whom will probably try porting their Legacy decks over to this format.  In such an unpredictable meta-game, I want to be comboing.  I want to be ignoring my opponent and just winning faster.  So the question becomes, what is the best way to do that?

My friend, Phil (saspook on TMD), thought I should go back to the mono-black version.  This isn't a terrible idea since I can name at least two Legacy Dredge players I know who are going to proxy some Bazaars and call it a day.  But again... nauseous.  So I've been tinkering with this:

BLUE SPLASH - When you just want Plan A, and you want it now

I'm a greedy bastard and I wanted to run Jace in a Dark Times deck.  Sue me.  So I started testing with blue for 2 Jace, Ancestral, and Time Walk - adding a Sapphire and Mox Diamond to make the mana work better - and I've found Plan A to be waaaay more consistent.  In fact, Plan B has become "do Plan A again."

Phil, again the voice of reason, thinks UU for Jace is just a bit too greedy.  He may be right, and without Hurkyl's Recall, I'm leaving myself open to the trump cards that can actually shut down Plan A (Needle, Ensnaring Bridge [do people even run that card?]).

So after some more tweaking, I've ended up with this list:

4 Vampire Hexmage
4 Dark Confidant
4 Thoughtseize
4 Duress
4 Dark Ritual
2 Diabolic Edict
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Imperial Seal
1 Demonic Consultation
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Intuition (This is a new addition and the slot I'm the least sure about.  I'm considering trying out Preordain, or maybe running the Sapphire in it's place. Maybe it should be one of the cards that used to be in the deck, like the SB Darkblast or the 3rd Edict.)
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Time Walk
1 Brainstorm
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Necropotence
1 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Pithing Needle
1 Mox Jet
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Diamond (seems weak, but is surprisingly good)
1 Lotus Petal
2 Dark Depths
4 Black Fetchland (1 of each)
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Underground Sea
4 Swamp
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine

Sideboard (very rough)
1 Emissary of Despair
2 Bitterblossom
4 Leyline of the Void
1 Yixlid Jailer
1 Trinisphere
1 Pithing Needle
1 Darkblast
3 Null Rod
1 Engineered Plague

Other cards I've considered for the sideboard: Annul, Spell Pierce, Energy Flux, Perish.

So that's where I am right now,  The extra card draw and tutor(s) make the HexDepths combo more consistent.  I have a bullet against MUD, but I still lose to a Chalice for 2.  I'm no longer favored game 1 against Dredge, but neither is anyone else in the format, and I feel comfortable enough post-board.

This is the deck I hope to run two weeks from now at Superstars, a more established metagame, but (and I can't believe I'm typing this after all I've already said) I MIGHT still run mono-black at my local tourney this Sunday.  It's only because I know there will be a disproportionately high number of Dredgers in the room and I don't expect much MUD.  Maybe somebody here can convince me that the Helm/Leyline combo isn't completely jank.  But right now, I'm (obviously) not seeing it.

[2nd_lawl]

If you are playing intuition then I would play the 3rd dark depths. Im leaning towards it anyway in the mono black version.

[Jakgotbak]

If you are playing intuition then I would play the 3rd dark depths. Im leaning towards it anyway in the mono black version.

I thought about that.  Then I thought if I'm running a 3rd Depths just to make a marginal card better, should I even be running said card.

The fact that you're also going up to 3 Depths makes me reconsider that idea, though.

[Djinn]

What about instead of 5 Leyline/Helm, we go 3 Painter's servant/2 Grindstone, or something like that?  You have a 2nd wincon and unless you get turn 0 leyline it is much cheaper, as it cost 6 mana total with the highest costing mana being 3, as opposed to two 4cc.  You could also maybe do 4 Painter's/1 Grindstone, or maybe even 3 Painters/1 Grindstone, and a beats equipment to make the Painter's servants or Bobs a little more threatening.  What do you think?

[Djinn]

GREEN SPLASH - When you just want a good plan B

I played a friendly Vintage game against Conley Woods once.  He was playing MUD, and I asked him "Everyone seems to be afraid of playing against Workshops.  What are Workshops afraid of playing against?"

He said, simply, "Tarmogoyfs."

After my first tourney at Superstars, I axed the Helm and moved the Leylines to the sideboard.  In their place, I added 4 Tarmogoyfs and a Mox Emerald.  I suddenly felt like the MUD matchup was as unloseable as Dredge had once been. The first 'Goyf you play will usually trade with a 5/3, buying you lots of time against a deck that really only runs 8 threats.  The second goyf tends to be a 5/6, and at that point you really can't lose.

Nature's Claim out of the board gives you even more game against 'Shops, and helps with the Chalice-at-2 problem the rest of the deck has.  Claim is also good against Oath, a match-up admittedly made a little bit worse by the 'Goyfs.

My local shop is running its first Vintage event this Sunday, so I'm dusting off the Dark Depths again and getting ready to crush with some 20/20s.  There will be a lot of first-time Vintage players in the room, many of whom will probably try porting their Legacy decks over to this format.  In such an unpredictable meta-game, I want to be comboing.  I want to be ignoring my opponent and just winning faster.  So the question becomes, what is the best way to do that?

My friend, Phil (saspook on TMD), thought I should go back to the mono-black version.  This isn't a terrible idea since I can name at least two Legacy Dredge players I know who are going to proxy some Bazaars and call it a day.  But again... nauseous.  So I've been tinkering with this:

Also, I'm curious to know how you altered your manabase to accommodate the green splash?

[Jakgotbak]

GREEN SPLASH - When you just want a good plan B

I played a friendly Vintage game against Conley Woods once.  He was playing MUD, and I asked him "Everyone seems to be afraid of playing against Workshops.  What are Workshops afraid of playing against?"

He said, simply, "Tarmogoyfs."

After my first tourney at Superstars, I axed the Helm and moved the Leylines to the sideboard.  In their place, I added 4 Tarmogoyfs and a Mox Emerald.  I suddenly felt like the MUD matchup was as unloseable as Dredge had once been. The first 'Goyf you play will usually trade with a 5/3, buying you lots of time against a deck that really only runs 8 threats.  The second goyf tends to be a 5/6, and at that point you really can't lose.

Nature's Claim out of the board gives you even more game against 'Shops, and helps with the Chalice-at-2 problem the rest of the deck has.  Claim is also good against Oath, a match-up admittedly made a little bit worse by the 'Goyfs.

My local shop is running its first Vintage event this Sunday, so I'm dusting off the Dark Depths again and getting ready to crush with some 20/20s.  There will be a lot of first-time Vintage players in the room, many of whom will probably try porting their Legacy decks over to this format.  In such an unpredictable meta-game, I want to be comboing.  I want to be ignoring my opponent and just winning faster.  So the question becomes, what is the best way to do that?

My friend, Phil (saspook on TMD), thought I should go back to the mono-black version.  This isn't a terrible idea since I can name at least two Legacy Dredge players I know who are going to proxy some Bazaars and call it a day.  But again... nauseous.  So I've been tinkering with this:

Also, I'm curious to know how you altered your manabase to accommodate the green splash?

-7 Swamps
-1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth

+5 Black Fetches
+3 Bayou

Funnily enough, due to card availability issues, I actually ran 1 Bayou and 2 Overgrown Tombs at the Champs Prelim.

[Reckoner]

My thanks to Killane and Engineer for the advice. Hopefully, I can put it to good use this Saturday.

[2nd_lawl]

alright here is my SB for waterbury I think:
2 emissary
2 ghost quarter
1 pithing needle
3 null rod
2 snuff out
2 jailer
1 ee
1 trinisphere
1 darkblast

[Bibi]

I've run this deck in three tournaments so far to some moderate success.  I placed top 8 in a Superstars Mox Tourney, Top 4 of the Vintage Champs Prelim at Gen Con, but only ran a 4-3 record in the actual Vintage Champs event.

I absolutely love the deck, but there's something that bothers me about the stock build, and it's this:

The thought of playing Helm/Leyline maindeck in a Vintage tournament makes me feel nauseous.

I realize maindeck Leylines turn the Dredge matchup into some kind of sick joke.  But against many decks, they're marginal at best, and against some decks they're straight-up dead draws.  So is it worth it to completely own one fringe matchup (Dredge) while a very popular archetype (MUD) takes us to the woodshed?

To be fair, I only ran the deck as Mono-Black in my first tournament, so maybe some players with more time behind the deck can share some insights about these cards, because I'm just not seeing it.  For the combo to even be doable, you kind of need to turn-0 the leyline, otherwise we're talking 9 mana to get this bad-boy going.  So let's say you have the T0 leyline in your opener, maybe you even have the Helm, but no fast mana.  Are you okay with your win condition activating on turn 5?  Even turn 5 here assumes you never get a land Wasted or choose to Waste a land yourself.  What if you have the T0 Leyline and no Helm?  Are you now prepared to start burning tutors to put this combo together instead of HexDepths?  And if you don't go for the Helm, that T0 Leyline is basically a mulligan, while a Helm by itself in your opener is almost assuredly a mulligan.  Anytime I drew a Leyline or a Helm after turn 1,  I wanted to punch something very hard.  Flipping one of these spells to Bob is adding injury to the insult.  In the one tournament in which I ran Helm, I only went for it once.  That happened to be against Dredge, a matchup where I'm obviously going to mulligan into Leyline.  Against everyone else, however, either side of the Helm/Leyline combo turned into a mulligan (by that I mean my "7" card hand only really had 6 useable cards in it).

I feel like this deck runs a lot of fair-ish cards in an unfair format (sorcery speed hand disruption, Wasteland effects that often slow down our development just as much as our opponents').  Add to this a number of tutorable silver bullets and fast-mana accelerants that are great early game but not so great late game, and you end up with a deck that can find itself drawing dead a lot, in a format where every card you or your opponent draws is of critical importance.  I can't bring myself to run five more dead draws in the form of Helm/Leyline. 

The problem, I realize, with removing Helm and Leyline is that you are taking out Plan B, and making the deck all about Plan A.  We know that Bob beatdown is not really a viable strategy, so I feel like any move away from Helm/Leyline needs to do one of two things: provide an alternate Plan B win condition, or make Plan A as brokenly streamlined as possible.  Here are the things I've tried so far:

GREEN SPLASH - When you just want a good plan B

I played a friendly Vintage game against Conley Woods once.  He was playing MUD, and I asked him "Everyone seems to be afraid of playing against Workshops.  What are Workshops afraid of playing against?"

He said, simply, "Tarmogoyfs."

After my first tourney at Superstars, I axed the Helm and moved the Leylines to the sideboard.  In their place, I added 4 Tarmogoyfs and a Mox Emerald.  I suddenly felt like the MUD matchup was as unloseable as Dredge had once been. The first 'Goyf you play will usually trade with a 5/3, buying you lots of time against a deck that really only runs 8 threats.  The second goyf tends to be a 5/6, and at that point you really can't lose.

Nature's Claim out of the board gives you even more game against 'Shops, and helps with the Chalice-at-2 problem the rest of the deck has.  Claim is also good against Oath, a match-up admittedly made a little bit worse by the 'Goyfs.

My local shop is running its first Vintage event this Sunday, so I'm dusting off the Dark Depths again and getting ready to crush with some 20/20s.  There will be a lot of first-time Vintage players in the room, many of whom will probably try porting their Legacy decks over to this format.  In such an unpredictable meta-game, I want to be comboing.  I want to be ignoring my opponent and just winning faster.  So the question becomes, what is the best way to do that?

My friend, Phil (saspook on TMD), thought I should go back to the mono-black version.  This isn't a terrible idea since I can name at least two Legacy Dredge players I know who are going to proxy some Bazaars and call it a day.  But again... nauseous.  So I've been tinkering with this:

BLUE SPLASH - When you just want Plan A, and you want it now

I'm a greedy bastard and I wanted to run Jace in a Dark Times deck.  Sue me.  So I started testing with blue for 2 Jace, Ancestral, and Time Walk - adding a Sapphire and Mox Diamond to make the mana work better - and I've found Plan A to be waaaay more consistent.  In fact, Plan B has become "do Plan A again."

Phil, again the voice of reason, thinks UU for Jace is just a bit too greedy.  He may be right, and without Hurkyl's Recall, I'm leaving myself open to the trump cards that can actually shut down Plan A (Needle, Ensnaring Bridge [do people even run that card?]).

So after some more tweaking, I've ended up with this list:

4 Vampire Hexmage
4 Dark Confidant
4 Thoughtseize
4 Duress
4 Dark Ritual
2 Diabolic Edict
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Imperial Seal
1 Demonic Consultation
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Intuition (This is a new addition and the slot I'm the least sure about.  I'm considering trying out Preordain, or maybe running the Sapphire in it's place. Maybe it should be one of the cards that used to be in the deck, like the SB Darkblast or the 3rd Edict.)
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Time Walk
1 Brainstorm
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Necropotence
1 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Pithing Needle
1 Mox Jet
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Diamond (seems weak, but is surprisingly good)
1 Lotus Petal
2 Dark Depths
4 Black Fetchland (1 of each)
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Underground Sea
4 Swamp
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine

Sideboard (very rough)
1 Emissary of Despair
2 Bitterblossom
4 Leyline of the Void
1 Yixlid Jailer
1 Trinisphere
1 Pithing Needle
1 Darkblast
3 Null Rod
1 Engineered Plague

Other cards I've considered for the sideboard: Annul, Spell Pierce, Energy Flux, Perish.

So that's where I am right now,  The extra card draw and tutor(s) make the HexDepths combo more consistent.  I have a bullet against MUD, but I still lose to a Chalice for 2.  I'm no longer favored game 1 against Dredge, but neither is anyone else in the format, and I feel comfortable enough post-board.

This is the deck I hope to run two weeks from now at Superstars, a more established metagame, but (and I can't believe I'm typing this after all I've already said) I MIGHT still run mono-black at my local tourney this Sunday.  It's only because I know there will be a disproportionately high number of Dredgers in the room and I don't expect much MUD.  Maybe somebody here can convince me that the Helm/Leyline combo isn't completely jank.  But right now, I'm (obviously) not seeing it.

So how it works ?

What about splashing green for tarmo an nature's claim and also blue only for ancestral recall, time walk and brainstorm ?

This is a list I was thinking about :

        1 Forest
        1 Strip Mine
        2 Bayou
        2 Dark Depths
        2 Underground Sea
        2 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
        3 Swamp
        3 Wasteland
        4 Verdant Catacombs
        3 Tarmogoyf
        4 Dark Confidant
        4 Vampire Hexmage
        1 Black Lotus
        1 Crucible of Worlds
        1 Lotus Petal
        1 Mox Emerald
        1 Mox Jet
        1 Mox Sapphire
        1 Null Rod
        1 Pithing Needle
        1 Necropotence
        1 Ancestral Recall
        1 Brainstorm
        1 Vampiric Tutor
        2 Diabolic Edict
        2 Nature's Claim
        3 Dark Ritual
        1 Demonic Tutor
        1 Tendrils of Agony
        1 Time Walk
        1 Yawgmoth's Will
        3 Duress
        3 Thoughtseize

SB:  1 Helm of Obedience
SB:  4 Leyline of the Void
SB:  1 Pithing Needle
SB:  2 Null Rod
SB:  1 Dark Depths
SB:  2 Nature's Claim

Sidebord is nos finished, I have to work on it.

I know the deck is not perfert, and having blue+green might be worst compare to the black version

What do you think ? To bad ? 3 colours is too much ?

Thanks

[Sporkcore]

What about instead of 5 Leyline/Helm, we go 3 Painter's servant/2 Grindstone, or something like that?  You have a 2nd wincon and unless you get turn 0 leyline it is much cheaper, as it cost 6 mana total with the highest costing mana being 3, as opposed to two 4cc.  You could also maybe do 4 Painter's/1 Grindstone, or maybe even 3 Painters/1 Grindstone, and a beats equipment to make the Painter's servants or Bobs a little more threatening.  What do you think?

Doing this hurts your G1 plan against Dredge which is one of the benefits of playing this deck.

[madmanmike25]

Not sure if this has been discussed, but I'll just toss it out there anyway.

If you are adding green to this deck why wouldn't you want Living Wish?  No one wants 4 Depths maindeck and 3 Hexmages is fine.  Living Wish finds either piece.  You could also run Gatekeeper, Viridian Shaman (maybe outdated but only G to cast) or other toolbox critters in the sb.  Imagine getting Tabernacle, Maze of Ith, Glacial Chasm, etc. etc..  Living Wish could easily be 2-4 of for the deck depending on the potency.

[Jakgotbak]

Not sure if this has been discussed, but I'll just toss it out there anyway.

If you are adding green to this deck why wouldn't you want Living Wish?  No one wants 4 Depths maindeck and 3 Hexmages is fine.  Living Wish finds either piece.  You could also run Gatekeeper, Viridian Shaman (maybe outdated but only G to cast) or other toolbox critters in the sb.  Imagine getting Tabernacle, Maze of Ith, Glacial Chasm, etc. etc..  Living Wish could easily be 2-4 of for the deck depending on the potency.

Living wish was actually the original reason I tried green, with Goyf's and Claims coming later.

It didin't take much testing to realize Wish wasn't that great.  There really aren't that many silver bullets you really want to wish for that are creatures and lands.  So if you're running, say, 2 Wishes in place of a Depths and a Hexmage, all you're really doing is costing yourself two sideboard slots.

Some of the ideas kicked around and why they were discounted:
Tabernacle - gets Wasted or simply paid for by fish decks, doesn't really stop Dredge if they can make one big Flame-Kin Zealot (too slow anyway if you're wishing on turn 2 and playing the Tabernacle on  turn 3).  Slows us down even more in a mana-light deck
Maze of Ith - There aren't many creatures we'd rather be Mazing than just assembling the combo, so we would never wish for this.  Also, see Tabernacle about us being mana-light
Glacial Chasm - I never tried this, but since you brought it up, I'll say we don't really have a way of abusing it.
Caustic Wasps - seemed like a Trygon in our colors, but the Goyfs made Workshops much easier, so it just didn't seem worth it, considering all the drawbacks of running the wishes in the first place.

[Jakgotbak]

So how it works ?

What about splashing green for tarmo an nature's claim and also blue only for ancestral recall, time walk and brainstorm ?

This is a list I was thinking about :

        1 Forest
        1 Strip Mine
        2 Bayou
        2 Dark Depths
        2 Underground Sea
        2 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
        3 Swamp
        3 Wasteland
        4 Verdant Catacombs
        3 Tarmogoyf
        4 Dark Confidant
        4 Vampire Hexmage
        1 Black Lotus
        1 Crucible of Worlds
        1 Lotus Petal
        1 Mox Emerald
        1 Mox Jet
        1 Mox Sapphire
        1 Null Rod
        1 Pithing Needle
        1 Necropotence
        1 Ancestral Recall
        1 Brainstorm
        1 Vampiric Tutor
        2 Diabolic Edict
        2 Nature's Claim
        3 Dark Ritual
        1 Demonic Tutor
        1 Tendrils of Agony
        1 Time Walk
        1 Yawgmoth's Will
        3 Duress
        3 Thoughtseize

SB:  1 Helm of Obedience
SB:  4 Leyline of the Void
SB:  1 Pithing Needle
SB:  2 Null Rod
SB:  1 Dark Depths
SB:  2 Nature's Claim

Sidebord is nos finished, I have to work on it.

I know the deck is not perfert, and having blue+green might be worst compare to the black version

What do you think ? To bad ? 3 colours is too much ?

Thanks

I think, though I haven't tested it, that three colors is too much.  My testing partner and I have discussed it, but I just can't see it working.

If you want to try it out, then more power to you.  I would skip the Brainstorm, though, and just run Time Walk and Recall.  I would also try to find a way to fit in all 8 Duress effects.  Maybe you can cut the Brainstorm, the Emerald, and the Sapphire for Duress, Thoughtseize, and a Mox Diamond.  Diamond gets better in a 3-color deck, obviously.

Late last night, I got fed up with trying the blue splash and went back to green.  I realized I'd just been trying to make these cards work because I liked them, and I'd been seriously underestimating the value of 'Goyf beatdown.

I'm playing in a tournament this afternoon, and I'll be running this:
4 Vampire Hexmage
4 Dark Confidant
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Thoughtseize
4 Duress
4 Dark Ritual
2 Diabolic Edict
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Imperial Seal
1 Demonic Consultation
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Necropotence
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Darkblast
1 Pithing Needle
1 Mox Jet
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Emerald
1 Lotus Petal
1 Null Rod
2 Dark Depths
2 Verdant Catacombs
1 Marsh Flats
1 Polluted Delta
1 Bloodstained Mire
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
3 Bayou
4 Swamp
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine

Sideboard (very rough)
2 Null Rod
2 Bitterblossom
4 Leyline of the Void
1 Yixlid Jailer
1 Trinisphere
1 Pithing Needle
1 Sadistic Sacrament
3 Nature's Claim

I'll try to take notes and post a quick report later today.

[Bibi]

Yep, green version looks better.

Do we need 1 Null Rod Main deck ? Is it really usefull ?
Why not 3 Null Rod in sideboard and 2 Sensei's Divining Top maindeck ?

It works well with Dark Confidant.

[Djinn]

What about instead of 5 Leyline/Helm, we go 3 Painter's servant/2 Grindstone, or something like that?  You have a 2nd wincon and unless you get turn 0 leyline it is much cheaper, as it cost 6 mana total with the highest costing mana being 3, as opposed to two 4cc.  You could also maybe do 4 Painter's/1 Grindstone, or maybe even 3 Painters/1 Grindstone, and a beats equipment to make the Painter's servants or Bobs a little more threatening.  What do you think?

Doing this hurts your G1 plan against Dredge which is one of the benefits of playing this deck.

We are discussing alternatives to Helmline, how is this idea any worse than splashing green for Tarmogoyfs or blue for power?  With Tarmo and with blue you still have the same problem as being vulnerable to dredge, so I don't understand why you would post this.