[Deck Idea] A Pillar of its Own - Burn with Attitude

[beder]

Well, regarding berserk, I have to admit that it needs test.
But what is sure is that : kiln fiend + 2 berserk = a 28/2 trample, the biggest creature in magic Just to do that, it deserves a try

[Delha]

Well, regarding berserk, I have to admit that it needs test.
But what is sure is that : kiln fiend + 2 berserk = a 28/2 trample, the biggest creature in magic Just to do that, it deserves a try

DSC  + 2x Berserk is 44 power, and lives to swing again. Just sayin.

[beder]

Well, regarding berserk, I have to admit that it needs test.
But what is sure is that : kiln fiend + 2 berserk = a 28/2 trample, the biggest creature in magic Just to do that, it deserves a try

DSC  + 2x Berserk is 44 power, and lives to swing again. Just sayin.

Well, you know what I mean 
A kiln fiend with double berserk is such an elegant way to win a game 

[Darkenslight]

Well, regarding berserk, I have to admit that it needs test.
But what is sure is that : kiln fiend + 2 berserk = a 28/2 trample, the biggest creature in magic Just to do that, it deserves a try

DSC  + 2x Berserk is 44 power, and lives to swing again. Just sayin.

Well, you know what I mean 
A kiln fiend with double berserk is such an elegant way to win a game 

Plus, against StP, that's a hell of a buffer. 

[BruiZar]

If I were to play a burn deck, I'd run Pyromancer's Ascension, Kiln Field, and Lava Darts. Gamble is a good tutor if you want an active Pyromancer's Ascension. Gamble is also a good tutor if you have an active Pyromancer in play because it gives you  Tutor 2 cards, discard a card at random.

[Delha]

If I were to play a burn deck, I'd run Pyromancer's Ascension, Kiln Field, and Lava Darts. Gamble is a good tutor if you want an active Pyromancer's Ascension.

Staggershock also becomes a lot better when running Ascension, since turning it on becomes much easier.

[brianpk80]

Perhaps the black Ascension would be better?


Bloodchief Ascension 
Enchantment

At the beginning of each end step, if an opponent lost 2 or more life this turn, you may put a quest counter on Bloodchief Ascension. (Damage causes loss of life.)

Whenever a card is put into an opponent's graveyard from anywhere, if Bloodchief Ascension has three or more quest counters on it, you may have that player lose 2 life. If you do, you gain 2 life.


When I first saw the card, I thought it was a bit too slow.  But in a burn deck that intends on having a 2-Power creature attack each turn, it might be active pretty quickly, especially with opponents' Bobs, Mana Crypts, Ancient Tombs, etc.  A burn deck has the advantage that you can burn them at the end of their turn so in theory, this Ascension could often be active within 1 full turn of its casting.  (Cast, attack, bolt them at the end of their turn, and attack again).  Once active, the Ascension is a lopsided Pyro-Pillar for spells of every casting cost that also makes fetching cost 3 life.  12 life to dredge a Golgari. 

It may not be the best, but the mention of Pyromancer's Ascension brought it to mind.  I think the black Ascension would be easier to activate and much more caustic to the opponent. 

[madmanmike25]

In theory it seems ok.  If you attack the same turn you cast Ascension, bolt/dmg on their turn, then attack on your next turn its already online.  The only problem I see is that the deck is trying to be built around Pyro Pillar.  Let's be real here, both of those cards need to come out as early as possible.  I think both lose a lot of potency if drawn too late.  I don't think a deck with 8 underwhelming late draws is a good thing. 

Black would give you Confidants though, who just happen to deal the 2 damage needed to trigger Ascension.  Duress and Thoughtsieze also seem nice with a Kiln Fiend out, but the dmg from Pillar may backfire. 

Also I want to know if Pillar has been testing well.  Is it still an auto-include or what?

[Delha]

Put as such, I'm leaning toward Bloodchief over Pyro Ascension. Notably, the fact that it's a one drop makes it a lot less likely to compete with Pyro Pillar. My gut reaction upon seeing it suggested was to say it was too slow, but bearing in mind the points made about damage in the opponent's turn, I could see it being viable. The synergy with Pillar is also pretty damn sweet.

[BruiZar]

I'd guess that Pillar / Bloodchief is definitely good enough to see play in vintage. I highly recommend running these two together in your build.

[brianpk80]

I could see the Ascension being used as an easy investment high threat-level distraction.  The comparison that comes to mind is the infinite Spellbomb combo in Bomberman.  The threat of recurring Lotus psyched an opponent out so much that vigilance against it prevented the opponent from realizing that the lethal blow was (intentionally) going to be delivered in the form of Trinket Mages during the combat step.  Opponent would devote too much attention to stopping the combo, siding in useless Tormod's Crypts and misjudging which spells to counter. 

Here, a first turn Ascension would be a solid play if no Moxen were in the opening hand.  Although racing won't always win, it bears noting that once active, the card impedes every strategy I can think of.  6 life to use Bazaar.  2 life for every spell cast.  2 life for every Wasteland used.  2 life to sac Lotus or Lotus Petal.  2 for each Welder activation.  22 life to dredge Golgari+Stinkweek.  Lots of life to use Oath of Druids. 

If that happens, an opponent needs to shut it down ASAP to stay in the game.  Sure, they may Nature's Claim it but if the opponent of this deck is fumbling around tutoring/drawing for a way out of an Ascension lock, it's more than done its job. 

[ArtOvWar]

Mana

1 Black lotus
1 jet
1 ruby
1 emerald
1 strip
4 waste
3 Foothills
3 Catacombs
3 taiga
3 badlands
1 mountain = 22

Creatures

4 Tarmogoyf
4 Kiln Fiend
4 Dark Confidant
4 Simian Spirit Guide = 16

Spells
2 Cabal Therapy
4 Thoughtseize
3 Nature's Claim
3 Berserk
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
2 Fireblast = 22


// Sideboard
3 Hammer Mage
3 Yixlid Jailer
3 Pithing Needle
3 Diabolic Edict
3 Red Elemental Blast


Sideboard is build how i would play it.

[serracollector]

Hi, wow lots of people are actually making suggestions.   I am trying a new build using Ascension.

Since I no longer run Psionic Blast, and therefore would only use ancestral, tinker, and time walk, which are obv awesome, but not as awesome as the x 4 Confidant, 2 tutor, Y will package is.


Here is my latest try of a Pillar Deck

Lock Peices (8)
4 x Pyrostatic Pillar
4 x Bloodcheif Ascension

Draw (8)
4 x Confidant
4 x Bazaar

Creatures(12)
4 x Hellspark Elemental
4 x Bloodghast
4 x Shambling Remains

Burn(9)
4 x L Bolt
4 x C Lightning
1 x Smash to Smithereens


Broekdness(3)
Y win
V.Tutor
D. Tutor

Mana (20)
1 mox Ruby
1 mox jet
1 mox diamond
2 x Lotus/Petal
4 x badlands
4 x  swamp
3 x mountain
4 x Bloodstained mire


Ascension has never been too slow.  It is usualy on on turn 3 if it isn't forced turn 1. It literally can be a lock.  I have had  "broken hands" of Lotus, land, 2 ascension, Pillar, try getting out of that.
Ascension + Pillar becomes a very quick lock along with hasty creatures and Bolts.
4 Bazaar, it can chuck Ghasts, Hellspark, Extra moxen after Pillar, or Shambling remains. Also generates tons of card advantage through Confidant let alone all the grave recursion.
I been testing Hellspark and Shambling for several reasons.

1) they do not affect Pillar, since they are simply returned, not cast.

2)  They cannot be countered.

3) They can be recurred under any number of sphere for the same 2 mana.

4) They have haste.

5) Both hellspark and remains can kill lodestone if they choose to block.  Which if you got a good start they usually have to.


I have cut it down to 9 burn since those 9 are most cost efficient and smash to smithereens is needed, and always useful.

Since I cut the number of burn spells I have dropped Kiln Fiend altogether, which some of you might think is crazy, but I find this build much more consistent, you do more damage to the enemy with less damage to yourself,  and I think its better for the current meta.

[ArtOvWar]

Why would you run the offcolor moxen? Ever thought of Simian Spirit Guide?
You can use it for mana or cast it as a creature to swing with.

Also 3 Prices or none. 2 is way to random. And PoP smacks shops in da face and laughs afterwards so.

[RecklessEmbermage]

The latest list looks really interesting.

Bloodchief ascension looks a bit hard to turn on and you are a little bit creature heavy. I would add some instants, either pop or smash to smithereens (if smash has enough targets in your meta, you might as well play 4). Try cutting bloodghasts and shambling remains. There should be a point somewhere where you always have fodder for bazaar, you have enough strains on your mana to make each bloodghast worth its slot (they are only good in this list because they are free, or if you plan to board in clamp) and where you can reliably turn on ascension in two turns.

I'm not sure if tutoring for yawgwin is a strong enough play to warrant demonic tutor. If you find yourself tutoring for bazaar (or any other card) more often, consider demonic consultation instead.

I also have the suspicion that pillar belongs in the sideboard. Make sure you test against the decks you expect to face.

[AmbivalentDuck]

Here is my latest try of a Pillar Deck

Strongly consider replacing the Smash to Smithereens with Ancient Grudge.  You already have three green sources and you could trivially toss in a Taiga/Bayou.

[serracollector]

I am liking the 2 colors, and smithereens is awesome, but it can be a dead draw.  When you have a Pillar in play some ppl are hesitant to play thier moxen. Right now I play 1 as utility with the 2 tutors and the mass draw, and I side 3 more, and 2 rack and Ruin.  I was using shattering spree, but most chalice decks I have played chalice for 1 to stop the bolts/chains.  

Bloodghast is almost 100% cast from the grave.  One game my opponent had tinkered for Inkwell, and got me down to 2 he was down to 1, with a confidant untapped, and diving top in play.  I had 1 ghast in grave and no cards in hand, I bazaar'd during upkp drawing and chucking a bloodghast, then top decked the land ftw.  After I had done this I realized the potential of Unearth creatures.  

Chalice for 2 don't stop them.

Counterspells don't stop them, they must be blocked or they take the damage to the face.

They can't be bounced by jace (accept Ghast and Bob).

If you bazaar 3-4 unearth creatures and 1-2 ghast and have 3 mana, your golden.  Not to mention if you have Pillar or Ascension/Burn.  Its became extremely fast this way.  Maybe I should try ichorid?  At best remove a Bob from grave for an extra 3?  

Hmm its starting to look dredgish, but the idea is to get Pillar or Ascension into play asap, then Mill ftw.

Maybe
-1 yawgmoth's will (this card is horrible under Pillar btw)
-1 Shambling Remains

+ 2 Ichorid

 or

+1 Demonic Consultation
+1 Ichorid

@Reckless Mebermage:  I usually demonic Tutor either for a Creature to Bazaar away, a lotus, or a Lock Piece (Pillar or Ascension).  It has proven itself crucial many a time.

If I were to splash green it would be for Nature's Claim  and maybe Pernicious Dead, not ancient Grudge.  Rack and Ruin does the same as grudge and actually costs less under spheres.  Nature's Claim would be for Leyline.  Leyline hurts alot obv, and I don't know of a black or red card that can deal with it.

This may sound....bad?....but would nevinyrral's disk be a sideboard option if I wanted to stay B/R?  It would get rid of leyline, can help me if Im stuck under my own pillar etc.  Just a thought.  I really can't think of anything else without splashing green.


Right now the SB is:

4 Pithing Needle
2 rack and ruin
3 Smash to Smithereens
2 Ravenous Trap
4 x ???

[RecklessEmbermage]

Against aggressive decks, you may find yourself outpaced, making pillar suboptimal. They should also be gunning for your draw engines with wastelands and any kind of creature removal.

How about siding in 3-4 skullclamp for pillar? Side them in 2nd game, when they take out null rods, and consider changing up again for the 3rd? This way, you should see more relevant cards than them each game.

Against oath, clamp is also useful (though maybe not as good as greater gargadon), but you may need a more universal way to deal with enchantments because of leyline. Gate to phyrexia is a possible option, but becomes quite bad if they have a leyline out. Siding in green or just siding in any cards for bloodghasts and 2 bazaars and hope for the best are probably both better options.

Oh, and skip green. You might as well splash for white. Hide and seek takes care of tinker targets (in response or afterwards if it is colossus), leylines, oaths, helps winning the race... Seal of cleansing beats primordium because of sphinx.

[AmbivalentDuck]

Oh, and skip green. You might as well splash for white. Hide and seek takes care of tinker targets (in response or afterwards if it is colossus), leylines, oaths, helps winning the race... Seal of cleansing beats primordium because of sphinx.

The whole point of Grudge is that you can safely discard it to Bazaar and still make someone hold counter backup for their Time Vault.  The reality is that you don't even need a single Taiga in your deck to seriously mess up your opponent's decision tree when you have Grudge in the grave and an uncracked fetch in play.

[RecklessEmbermage]

Oh, and skip green. You might as well splash for white. Hide and seek takes care of tinker targets (in response or afterwards if it is colossus), leylines, oaths, helps winning the race... Seal of cleansing beats primordium because of sphinx.

The whole point of Grudge is that you can safely discard it to Bazaar and still make someone hold counter backup for their Time Vault.  The reality is that you don't even need a single Taiga in your deck to seriously mess up your opponent's decision tree when you have Grudge in the grave and an uncracked fetch in play.

Well, true, but cacking artifacts isn't the biggest issue here. The deck needs a way to deal with enchantments and I think white offers better options.

[serracollector]

Actually you are 100% correct.  Green offers alot, don't get me wrong, but white offers 2 things Green does not, Swords to Plowshares and Balance.  Both of which are devastating in my most current list:

Draw Engine: (11)
4 x Confidant
4 x Bazaar
3 x Squee

Creatures: (9)
4 x Bloodghast
1 x Wispmare
4 x Jotun Grunt

Utility: (19)
4 x Bolt
2 x Swords
1 x Disenchant
1 x Smash to Smithereens
1 x Balance
4 x Pillar
4 x BC ascension
1 x Vampiric Tutor
1 x Demonic Tutor

Mana: (21)
1 x Lotus
1 x Petal
1 x Mox Diamond
1 x Mox Jet
1 x Mox Pearl
1 x Mox Ruby
2 x Badlands
2 x Plateau
2 x Scrub land
3 x Marsh flats
3 x Bloodstained Mire
1 x Swamp
1 x Mountain
1 x Plains


Sideboard: (15)
2 x Swords to Plowshares
2 x Wispmare
2 x Smash to Smithereens
2 x Shattering Spree
3 x Tormod's Crypt
4 x Pithing Needle


Pillar is unfortunately not a beast against MUD, but everything else its still amazing.   BC ascension is just sickening.  I get it first turn and it gets FoW so many many times.  It truly scares people, even if I don't have a threat on line.

Wispmare is something I been testing.

1) It can be online for 1 mana, meaning it can get rid of first turn Oath and Leyline, 2 of 3 of the decks biggest banes (besides tinker, tinker REALLY REALLY should be banned, so many games I had them with no doubt,  and they Tinker for Inkwell and smash my face).

2)  It can block Trygon/Confidant/Fish all day long.

3) Chalice for 2 doesn't wreck it like it does disenchant.

Swords and balance have been the best additions so far.  Getting a Pillar into play or Ascension (or both) then balancing with no hand usually = gg.

If I ran more mana sources I would be tempted to run Mind twist, since even if it was Misdirected at me, losing my hand normally doesn't hurt me as bad as them.


Jotun Grunt is an amazing 4-5th turn card, after you bazaar once or twice.  I am thinking of dropping 1-2 of them tho due to this reason, what would you guys suggest I use to replace them?  Another disenchant?  and...?
But, they provide a strong 4 damage, put cards in my grave back on bottom so I don't fear chucking anything to get something I need, and can block Lodestone and Juggernaut, if I don't have a swords or arti-destruction  in hand.

I was testing the R/W ajani, and his bolt effect is nice, and his tap affect was great for keeping a terst or iona down after they swing, or keeping an academy tapped or workshop, but it didn't effect Sphinx or Inky, and its big ability does little to seal the game, Armageddon just isn't wat it used to be.  So I dropped the 4 of them for the 2 swords, 1 balance, and 1 Smash to Smithereens, and have been happy with it, but I am still thinking of putting 1 or 2 back in.  Think of Ajani as the "anti- jace" planes walker.

Even with just 4 Bolts, 4 Ghasts, 4 confidants, and 4 Grunts, getting Ascension activated in 1-3 turns has never been a problem.  So many ppl with play a first turn Thoughtseize right after I play first turn Ascension, and most of the time Im just like "thank you".  

Other than the occasional lucky tinker bot, I have managed to crush the Jace Fish from gencon.  You wouldn't beleive how many people have netdecked that thing since it was posted online.  Everyone in the world thinks  its the best deck in Vintage now, and nothing against it's "creators" or Owen, but it is far from "the best".  Lightning Bolt and Swords make that deck weep, UNLESS it gets its lucky tinker bot.  

If anything Tinker should be banned LONG before jace is restricted.

At least jsace makes you think, "fateseal of draw?"  after I draw wat do I keep? etc etc, not just "mox, mox, land Tinker, gg?".  Thats just, well, retarded.  Anyone can do that it takes no thought process, not everyone can play with jace correctly, and player error makes a big difference as I am sure we all know.  

Please continue suggestions, this build is doing quite nicely.

[RecklessEmbermage]

Serracollector: Love the list! You forgot to include the bolts, which was a bit confusing.

Did you tune to decide on 4 each of the enchantmens or just consider them auto-includes? It looks like replacing 2 grunts and a pillar with grim lavamancer could be worth exploring, though they are fragile.

The manabase is solid, but maybe not fully tuned? Dropping one plateu for a seventh fetch seems reasonable, since you only need one white source and the black requirement is heaviest early. Bloodstained mire>marsh flats as long as you're not expecting blood moon. Apart from that, the manabase looks very well developed.

[serracollector]

Yeah sorry bout that, I just added the 4 bolts.

Also, wispmare is amazing.  In at least 3 maybe 4 games against Jace fish it did exacty wat it was supposed to do.  They had turn 0 leyline, I went first turn BCA, they cast 1st turn trygon, I cast 2nd turn wisp with a mox, killing leyline and making trygon NULL.  

But it does not warrant a maindeck inclusion, and unfortunately same with the Grunts after much testing.  I also found that having 3 squee was too much, after getting confidant or ghasts online, you really only need 1 squee to keep the draw engine going so I went:

- 1 Wisp
- 4 Grunt
- 1 Squee

+ 1 Disenchant
+ 2 Red Elemental Blast
+ 2 Diabolic Edict ( I need an answer to Inkwell, need)

This gives me
2 x Disenchant
2 x Smash to smithereens
2 x StP
2 x Edict
2 x REB
4 x Bolt

all as disruption pre-side.

White was definitely the choice to make.  It makes the deck a little less aggro, but makes Tinker Bot not an auto loss, as I can balance/edict away Inkwell, and all other tinker bots can be StP'd.  I love swordsing a Sphinx.

Most opponents spend all their counters on BCA or Pillar, leaving my "destroy your stuff" spells wide open.  

I am sure more and more can be done with this, but right now I am extremely  happy with this most current version.  It gives me plenty of outs for MUD, can lock out TPS and Tezz with its board disruption and pillar/BCA, and its draw engine can easily outrace Jace.  Opponents best bet against me is ravenous trap, but most people just use the Leyline route.  As long as the leyline trend continues, I should be ok.  Even with a first turn Leyline, getting a first turn Pillar followed by BCA is good enuff without having to use my grave.

Please continue suggestions and discussion, all help welcomed.

[brianpk80]

I like this deck and concept a lot.

I've been thinking through some suggestions.  

Part of me thinks that what the deck aims to accomplish with the Bazaars and Bloodghasts (uncounterable 2-damage) could be done more elegantly with Mishra's Factories.  It frees you from dependence on the graveyard entirely and eliminating that suite in favor of Factories opens 7 slots.  

-4 Bazaar
-3 Squee
-4 Bloodghast

+4 Mishra's Factory
+4 Grim Lavamancer
+3 Open Slots

Graveyard independence means Leyline of the Void is not a threat so:

-1 Disenchant
+1 Smash to Smithereens

I like Balance.  Path to Exile works better than StP here since the lifegain is relevant.  Diabolic Edict may be problematic since Tinker.dec is loaded now with Dark Confidants and Trygon Predators so the Tinker target may survive.  Splash damage from Leyline of Sanctity as well.  (I know the Pillar and Ascension don't target but I can see an opponent thinking "oooh scary red burn deck, I should sideboard in Sanctity.")

Sometimes I search for old forgotten creatures for Fish that might have an updated relevance with meta changes.  4 years ago, the best creatures for Tinker were Stormscape Apprentice and Waterfront Bouncer since everyone ran Darksteel Colossus.  Inkwell changed that.  

I found this:



It may be the only 1-CC creature in the game that can neutralize any member of the unholy trio (Darksteel Colossus, Inkweel Leviathan, Sphinx) without requiring a sacrifice.  The drawback is the activation cost, but that's offset to me by the fact that it can come down Turn 1.  By the time a cheated-into-play creature is actually attacking you, you should have 3 mana up or be close to it.  I was looking at it for GW Fish specifically, but thought it was worth a mention here with all the talk of Tinker counterstrategies and the fact that it can turn your own Pillar into lifegain.  And although I wouldn't recommend keeping it, the discard cost would mix well if you kept the Bazaar/Ghast engine.  

Putting ReB into the sideboard frees up more space maindeck.  There are some options like Duress effects, the {r} 2/2 Haste Goblin, more artifact destruction (Vault and MUD are huge threats), and maybe Jagged Poppet.  Also, Karakas is important in any deck running White these days.  Good luck.  

[Delha]

Manlands had occured to me as well, as a beater to safely drop while under Pillar. I'd been thinking Ghitu Encampment or Lavaclaw Reaches, but I can definitely see how Factory might be better.

[AmbivalentDuck]

Thread necromancy to quickly ask if Koth is reasonable in the context of this deck?  My guess is no.  But if any vintage deck wants a 4/4 with haste for 4 and fireball every turn after the first two, it's this one.