Nauseating your Opponent: today's ANT

[Killane]

With TPS being good again (see 2xTPS in top 8 Vintge Worlds, etc...) I began to consider recently what the implications of a faster Storm deck with good resilliance and stability might be. I looked at many builds, from TPS through GWSx, and then came to ANT.

If you ask a TPS player what the one card they would prefer to resolve over any other is, the answer is generally Yawgmoth's Bargain in a vaccume.  It's the most powerful spell in the deck, except maybe YawgWiin, but unlike YawgWin, it's not GY reliant and doesn't care about what you've played beforehand.

the thing is, if you build a deck correctly there exists in Vintage an Unrestricted Bargain that costs 1 less mana.

Oh, and it' an INSTANT.

I therefore present my ANT list as follows:

Engines

4 Ad Nauseum
1 Timetwister
1 Yawmoth's Will

Kill

2 Tendrils of Agony

Tutors

1 Demonic Tutor
1 Demonic Consultation
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Imperial Seal

Draw

1 Ancestral Recall
1 Brainstorm
1 Ponder
3 Preordain

Protection

3 Thoughtseize
2 Duress
3 Pact of Negation

Bounce

4 Chain of Vapor
1 Hurkyl's Recall

Fast Mana

4 Dark Ritual
1 Cabal Ritual
1 Black Lotus
1 Lotus Petal
1 Sol Ring
1 Mana Vault
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Pearl
2 Chrome Mox
1 Mox Diamond

Land

4 Polluted Delta
2 Marsh Flats
2 Underground Sea
2 Island
2 Swamp

Maindeck Average CMC: 1.083. Yes that's right. You have to draw an average of 13 cards with Ad Nauseum in this deck before you loose more life than you woudl with Bargain. And that's with 4 copies of Ad Nauseum, which I'm convienced is the correct number.

I'll get to the sideboard in a moment. First, let's talk about this sick sick maindeck.

what's here:

28 mana sources, 16 of which are fast mana. Most of the fast mana is pretty obvious - some might question Vault over a 2nd Cabal Ritual, but Vault is key in resolving turn 1 or 2 Ad Nauseum consistently, and lets you do some nice shenanigans with bounce spells while going off as well. The moxen are what most might question - the two on-colour are obvious, but the remaining Pearl, 2 x Chrome Mox, and 1 x Mox Diamond are the most questionable. Pearl is there because chrome mox and especially mox diamond are generally not what you want to be casting pre-adnauseum, but are vastly superior to off-colour moxen post Ad Nauseum. the 1x Diamond is there because you often have several extra lands in hand after resolving an Ad Nauseum, and being able to pitch one, two, or even three of them as you bounce and replay the Mox to generate Storm is quite nice compared with having to pitch extra cards.

The land base is identical to a standard TPS base except substituting a 6th Fetchland for Tolarian Academy. Academy really isn't needed in this deck - pre Ad Nauseum it's not reliable enough, and post Ad Nauseum you generally have enough mana that you don't care about the boost from Academy. That said, in a null Rod infested Meta Academy can provide an extra explosive boost and is well worth considering in Lieu of the 6th Fetchland.

Chain of Vapor is absurdly nutty. It takes care of every single problem permanant that you care about, generates storm, and costs only  . I've seen builds that run less than 4, and I strongly believe that these builds are dead wrong.

Hurkyl's is never dead in this deck either as a strong Storm engine and a solution to Chalice and Spheres.

Twister, in addition to being the least expensive draw 7 and a very very sick turn 1 play, is quite nice vs Dredge.

YawgWin is obvious, and if you're questioning its inclusion please go read a different thread 

The tutor package is built for speed. Consultation is risky, but generally you use it to get an Ad Nauseum, or post Ad Nauseum for a Tendrils, or post board (we'll get to  board in a minute) for one fo your 4-of's. It's there becuase you want a second "get this in my hand right now" tutor and grim is 3 times as expensive and essentially costs 6 life in the deck, which sadly makes it Le Suck.

the most common answer int he current meta for Storm is Mindbreak Trap, meaning Pact of Negation starts to gain some value over 8 duress effects, since you don't always have the mana post ad Nauseum to go crazy, and you don;t always have the life to cast multiple thoughtseizes.

I started this build with 4 duress 1 thoughtseize, but seize has been too good and gradually the mix went all the way to 1 /4 before settling at the current configuration. Thoughtseize takes Golem vs MUD and Hate bears vs Fish and Random.dec that Duress cannot, and since these sorts of things are among the greatest threats you face, the ability to consistantly rid yourself of them is much appreciated. At the end of the day though, 4 was just to much life loss- and you always want to be able to cast one of these post Ad Nauseum to help protect the actual kill.

3 Preordain alongside AR/BS/Pon deserves some explanation, especially given LSV's recent poor review of the card in Bob Tendrils. The thing is, Bob Tendrils is a much slower deck that uses its namesake as a draw egine, and doesn;t want to pull a Shitton of Cantrips from those extra draws. This deck wants to win now, and Scrying away bad topdecks can be extremely valuable. It's expecially nice to scry away superfluous Ad Nausuems so as not to flip them while going off, since they are really the only Flip that actually hurts.

I originally started with 3 Tendrils, but found that with 3 flipping multiple to Ad Nauseum got really irritating.

I've seen many arguements that the deck wants less than 4 Ad Nauseum, and I think these arguements are DEAD WRONG. Yes flipping them to each other really sucks. Yes you generally don't cast more than one of these. The thing is, this deck aims for consistant speed. You want one in your opener, your top 3 to find with a turn 1 cantrip, or quicly found with consultation without a large risk of decking or removing both tendrils. You want to cast this thing turn 1. You want 4. The rest of the curve is so low, I've had games where I've flipped 2 of these and still won with over 5 live remaining (ie safely).

If you're wondering why any card (Desire, Robot, etc...) with CMC 6 or greater is not present, it's due to that very safety factor. Under the current configuration, you can ALWAYS (unless playing vs Burn I suppose) Ad Nauseum until you get down to 5 life safely. Even if you have to Fetch and Vamp post Ad Nausuem for some reason you still have a safe margin. Given the low curve of the deck, increasing the safe threshold from 5 to 6 would often mean several fewer cards off AdNauseum. Even 3 less is the equivlent of giving up an ANCESTRAL, so it's really not worth it.

Where The HELL Is NECROPOTENCE??????

I know I know. I'm playing a Storm deck, with Rituals, Multiple Tendrils, and I'm not running Necopotence? WTF??????

Necropotence is absolutely, 100% dead in this deck post Ad Nauseum. Even if you wanted a slow draw engine, Ad Nauseum won't leave you enough life to use Necro. It costs almost 3 times as much as the average card in the deck when flipped, and the only thign it's good for is imprinting on a Chrome Mox.

Yes, it's insane turn 1 off a ritual. The thign is, is it really that insane in this deck? In TPS it's nutty becuase it lets you sculpt your hand, and th's why that dec is all about anyways. In GrimLong and other such decks it lets you dig super deep to find a couple of bombs, maybe a Duress, and acceleration so you can win next turn. But in ANT, you're not a "sculptor" like TPS, and your Bomb costs you a Shitton of life, so digging to it with Necro is counter-productive. I agonized over cutting this, but it really doesn;t belong this deck.

Given the lack of Necropotence, Time Walk looses a lot of value as well. it tends to just be a Cantrip, maybe an extra land drop, but doesn't help you dig the way the rest of the Cantripsih spells do. And it costs twice as much mana (and life from Ad Nauseum). 

Sideboard

4 Emissary of Despair
4 Yixlid Jailer
2 Rebuild
2 Extirpate
1 Pithing Needle
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Echoing Truth

I've run Dark Times a few times recently, and I've just loved the Emissary vs Shops. It's crazy. Yes it really sucks if they have B-Ring, espcially with Recursion, but it's immune to the Sculpting Steel that many are running as flexable answers to Tinekr-Bot, it can't be welded, and if they want to Duplicant it, be my guest. Here, it'seven better since Ad Nauseum rarely runs a Tinker-Bot in the side, and your complete lack of green fetches or moxen in the main will lead most that are smart enough to consider it away from concluding that you are running a transformational Oath board, meaning that there's a good chance they will board out all of ther removal, in which case Emissary becomes impossible for them to answer short of completely locking you out. I've considered running Tinker-Bot in place of two of them, but I honestly belive Emissary is almost as fast a clock and much harder to answer, plus consulting for a 4-off is much less risky.

Extirpate pulls double duty as a good card vs Drains and Oath, helping to strip away their countermagic alongside your 5 duress effects to prevent them from stopping your utterly sick engine.

Echoig Truth is good vs Fish, Nice vs Dredge since in addition to bouncing Zombie Armies it can sweep awaymultiple Leylines and/or Chalices in the more resilliant builds that are popular these days, and a nice thign to have vs Oath (which really has to name black with Iona against you).

The rest of the board is pretty self-explanatory. You get to bring in 9 cards vs Dredge (though 1 is admittedly not really hate but better than you hurkyl's against them) and 8-12 cards vs Shops (if you really want to go crazy and bring in the Jailers and just go beastdown on them).

thoughts?

[meadbert]

How is Necropotence worse than Ad Nauseum #4?

[Killane]

How is Necropotence worse than Ad Nauseum #4?

You have to pass the turn to get the cards, you can't play it on opponent upkeep, you have to RFG discarded cards, and you still end up wanting an engine which in this deck means paying life.

[serracollector]

Your goal is to go off with as little mana as possible usually meaning 5 for the Adnasueam.

My suggestion, which makes it much faster and even give it a smaller avg CC is

-2 Dures
-1 Thoughtseize
-3 preordain


+ 2 Chrome Mox
+1 Pact of Negotiation
+1 Lion's Eye Diamond
+1 Sensei's Diving Top


When testing your exact decklist I found myself casting a turn 1 or 2 add with exactly five mana, then drawing into lands and preordrains I could not use nor wanted to really.  The extra 2 moxen are free draws once ad hits, and they are mana, which is needed for the rit's/tendrils after the ad.

If your casting Ad your planning on winning that turn, so the drawback of Pact is the same if you drew dead off Ad.  Its much easier to cast when you don't need to sink the extra 1 mana into a TS or Duress.
Duress ended up being a Chrome mox Target most of the time if I had a pact in hand, so 4 should be the amount you run.  And they lower CC. Not to mention if you draw 2 or more Pact off Ad, and you assume your opponent has no counters since they did not counter you ad, you can play tricks, like play a mox, pact it, then pact the first pact, giving you additional storm count for free.  TS or Duress can't do that by any means.

Lion's eye diamond is just....duh?  Drop hand cast ad, in response pop LED, gg?

Top is in case you can't find that 5th mana or tutor.  This 1 card will do better than ANY number of Preordains for you, and has the same CC.

Other wise nice build.  Chain of vapor is only good if you have 2-3 lands in play to pop to bounce ur own moxen, why not try a combination of 2 chain, and 2 repeal?  That way you can still have the option to bounce any card thats could hurt u, but repeal is better for the storm count/bounce moxen scenerio.

[emidln]

Repeal isn't good. I ran them over Chain of Vapor at one point in ANT and almost every single game 2 I sided out Repeals for Chain of Vapor. One of the larger problems is that Repeal costs 3 to bounce Oath and 4 to bounce a 2sphere whereas Chain still only costs 1-2. Bouncing sphere effects is extremely relevant as a shop play can't always put down 2 lock pieces on turn 1, allowing small openings where you can win.

I'd never cut Necropotence. I tutor for it often and have no problem casting it later than turn 2. It functions far better with a third Tendrils of Agony. Blindly focusing on Ad Nauseam and ignoring other possibilities seems really bad, especially possibilities that are cheaper, and more effective at actually winning the game (I've fizzled less with Necro than with AdN).

Chrome Mox mox needs to be a 3-of and probably should be a 4-of.

I personally play 0 Pact of Negations, but this is a choice. I hold interactivity at a premium because while we might be the most consistently broken deck, we're not the only deck that goes broken.

Lion's Eye Diamond is left out because there are only 8ish cards in the deck that you want to break it into, and 4 of those happen to be the spell that you're trying to resolve most often (Ad Nauseam). The others, Yawgmoth's Will, Timetwister, Demonic Consultation, and Demonic Tutor have a varying effectiveness with LED. 

It's probably worth mentioning that Sol Ring is marginal. I've generally been replacing it with Cabal Ritual since, when played the same turn early they tend to make the same mana, and Cabal Ritual's upside (avoiding Chalice @ 1), potential threshold) seem to happen more than me wanting to lead land, sol ring, go.

I've mentioned this in other threads, but part of not losing to MUD/Stax is not playing super-greedy manabases. While you might be able to get by on 12 lands, probably even a number like 10-11, extra lands don't hurt your Ad Nauseam gameplan and they do significantly increase the likelihood that you get to bounce/serenity mana against Stax. I'd recommend somewhere between 13 and 15 lands maindeck with 2-3 more sideboard.

[Killane]

Repeal isn't good. I ran them over Chain of Vapor at one point in ANT and almost every single game 2 I sided out Repeals for Chain of Vapor. One of the larger problems is that Repeal costs 3 to bounce Oath and 4 to bounce a 2sphere whereas Chain still only costs 1-2. Bouncing sphere effects is extremely relevant as a shop play can't always put down 2 lock pieces on turn 1, allowing small openings where you can win.

I'd never cut Necropotence. I tutor for it often and have no problem casting it later than turn 2. It functions far better with a third Tendrils of Agony. Blindly focusing on Ad Nauseam and ignoring other possibilities seems really bad, especially possibilities that are cheaper, and more effective at actually winning the game (I've fizzled less with Necro than with AdN).

Chrome Mox mox needs to be a 3-of and probably should be a 4-of.

I personally play 0 Pact of Negations, but this is a choice. I hold interactivity at a premium because while we might be the most consistently broken deck, we're not the only deck that goes broken.

Lion's Eye Diamond is left out because there are only 8ish cards in the deck that you want to break it into, and 4 of those happen to be the spell that you're trying to resolve most often (Ad Nauseam). The others, Yawgmoth's Will, Timetwister, Demonic Consultation, and Demonic Tutor have a varying effectiveness with LED. 

It's probably worth mentioning that Sol Ring is marginal. I've generally been replacing it with Cabal Ritual since, when played the same turn early they tend to make the same mana, and Cabal Ritual's upside (avoiding Chalice @ 1), potential threshold) seem to happen more than me wanting to lead land, sol ring, go.

I've mentioned this in other threads, but part of not losing to MUD/Stax is not playing super-greedy manabases. While you might be able to get by on 12 lands, probably even a number like 10-11, extra lands don't hurt your Ad Nauseam gameplan and they do significantly increase the likelihood that you get to bounce/serenity mana against Stax. I'd recommend somewhere between 13 and 15 lands maindeck with 2-3 more sideboard.

Agree 100% on Repeal. Decks like Jace Tendrils want it, decks like ANT do not.

I don't understand Necopotence in this list. How do you address the issue of passing the turn and paying life to find an engine that costs you more life? Even if you Necro for 15 you're not likely to draw a hand of 7 that gets there unless you get demonic tutor or YawgWin right then and there. It's gret in TPS becuase most of the engines you draw into don;t cost you further life, and in Grim Long becuase all you need is one a a billion tutors and some accelerants so you can win with Will. 

I cut the 3rd Chrome Mox for the Mox Diamond. I far more oftenanted to pitch a land or teo or three than all sorts of colored spells post Ad Nauseum. Do you really think that the 3rd Chrome Mox is better than a singleton Diamond?

What do you run in place of Pact and how do you find yourself coping with Mindbreak Traps?

Agree re: LED. I'd rather a more consistant mana source.

I'll test the second cabal ritual in place of Sol Ring, but my gut tells me you want the Sol Ring to help pay for resistors. what about Tolarian Academy in this spot? Less useful Turn 1 unless you have a ton of artifact mana, but I can be extremely explosive post Ad Nauseum helping to pay though a ton of Sphere effects, and making going off with null rod on the table a much more reasonable prospect.

How is 12 land a greedy manabase? It's thesame manabase as TPS, except minus Academy and plus another Fetch, which is MORE resillant vs Wastelands, and TPS was designed to beat shop decks. I don;t have more lands in the board due to the aggro plan which requires 0 non-basics. That said, given the number of resistors being run do you think an extra pair of basics in the board might be better than the 2 rebuilds?

What maindeck do you cut for more basics? Also, even with 12 I often find myself drawing too many land. the deck really want 10 land in my opinion - I've board out up to 2 lands before and never had an issue with manascrew, so 12 is already a concession to the shop meta.

If your casting Ad your planning on winning that turn, so the drawback of Pact is the same if you drew dead off Ad.  Its much easier to cast when you don't need to sink the extra 1 mana into a TS or Duress.
Duress ended up being a Chrome mox Target most of the time if I had a pact in hand, so 4 should be the amount you run.  And they lower CC. Not to mention if you draw 2 or more Pact off Ad, and you assume your opponent has no counters since they did not counter you ad, you can play tricks, like play a mox, pact it, then pact the first pact, giving you additional storm count for free.  TS or Duress can't do that by any means.

Top is in case you can't find that 5th mana or tutor.  This 1 card will do better than ANY number of Preordains for you, and has the same CC.

Duress is not just for post Ad Nauseum- it's a very strong turn 1 play given you a ton of info and taking their best card or 2 for 1ing them by forcing a FoW. you really want 8, but that costs too much life and mana post Ad Nauseum. I usually find myself able to cast 1 Duress post Ad Nauseum plus having Pact backup. 3 Pacts is sufficient the kind of Shennanigans you're talking about, but I would never go there personally unless I was certain they couldn't do anything to stop me. Creative use of the artifact mana and chain of vapors is almost always sufficient to get you to the correct Storm count.

Top is not nearly as good as Preordain in this list. You can't imprint it on a Chrome Mox. you can't ship useless crap to the bottom of the library when chaining draw spells together (one common play I have post Ad Nauseum is breaking Lotus for  and casting Ancestral, Brainstorm, Preordain. top has much less value in the 3rd spot of that sequence). Manipulating the top ofe deck is not as good a getting chaff out of the way.

[meadbert]

Regarding Necro:

You must pass the turn, but it should usually be online earlier anyway.  Waiting the extra turn can mean that Pierce or Drain are up.

Some of the arguments against Necro apply to the 4th Ad Nauseum such as Nausing into it.

The final argument is something along the lines of you lose too much once you get Necro out.

This sounds like a deck design issue rather than a problem with Necropotence itself.
A deck that is supposedly designed to pay a ton of life to draw a bunch of cards and then Tendrils ought to do very well with Necro out.

All you have to do is Necro into Tendrils to at worst Tendrils for 12 and then draw 10 more cards.
If you fail to Necro into Tendrils or a tutor or Yawg then I suspect Ad Nauseum would be causing trouble as well.

[Killane]

Regarding Necro:

You must pass the turn, but it should usually be online earlier anyway.  Waiting the extra turn can mean that Pierce or Drain are up.

Some of the arguments against Necro apply to the 4th Ad Nauseum such as Nausing into it.

The final argument is something along the lines of you lose too much once you get Necro out.

This sounds like a deck design issue rather than a problem with Necropotence itself.
A deck that is supposedly designed to pay a ton of life to draw a bunch of cards and then Tendrils ought to do very well with Necro out.

All you have to do is Necro into Tendrils to at worst Tendrils for 12 and then draw 10 more cards.
If you fail to Necro into Tendrils or a tutor or Yawg then I suspect Ad Nauseum would be causing trouble as well.

No, the arguement is not that you loose to much once Necro it out, the arguement is that it is actively Dissynegistic with the main Engine of the deck.

Tendrils for 12 and then draw 10 more cards is not good when none of those cards include ways to disrupt your opponent (which they don;t, since Pact is Ptection, Duress effects are Sorcery speed, and you can't realistically run FoW in a Deck with Ad Nauseum). You still end up passing the turn AGAIN. Necro is easier to cast turn 1, with a Ritual. It is ONLY good on turn 1, otherwise is is just as well the 4th Ad Nauseum.

It's not a degin issue. This deck just wants to do different things than TPS or GWSx want to do. GWSx wants to mini-tendrils, which is great with Necropotence when the deck is designed to do that. TPS wants to sculpt the "Perfect" handd, and doesn;t use Ad Nauseum as an engine. Necropotence is one of the best cards in that deck.

This deck wants to Resolve Ad Nauseum. Necropotence is NOT a good way to find Ad Nauseum, and is NOT good post Ad Nauseum. Running it in place of the 4th Ad useum also makes Conultation worse.

[meadbert]

No, the arguement is not that you loose to much once Necro it out, the arguement is that it is actively Dissynegistic with the main Engine of the deck.

Tendrils for 12 and then draw 10 more cards is not good when none of those cards include ways to disrupt your opponent (which they don;t, since Pact is Ptection, Duress effects are Sorcery speed, and you can't realistically run FoW in a Deck with Ad Nauseum). You still end up passing the turn AGAIN. Necro is easier to cast turn 1, with a Ritual. It is ONLY good on turn 1, otherwise is is just as well the 4th Ad Nauseum.

The first sentence and next paragraph seem to disagree with each other.

Have I misinterpreted that whole paragraph or is the purpose to show how once Necro has resolved you are still likely to lose because Tendrils for 12 + draw 10 etc is not good enough to win?  I can see how the lack of Force makes Necro riskier than TPS, but there are plenty of decks that have run Necro without Force, so what else is different here?
I am not saying you are wrong.  It just seems to me that something else is going on.  Perhaps the lack of off color Moxen means Hurkyls + Tendrils is less likely to get lethal damage.  I do not know what the issue is, but I want to understand how a Tendrils deck, that relies heavily on Ad Nauseam, frequently loses with Necropotence out.

[Gandalf_The_White_1]

You actually want 4 Ad Naus AND Necro to maximize threat density.  Although it doesn't have the greatest synergy with Ad Naus, Necro is still too good to pass up.  In my testing, aggressive Necro (~13) almost always got there the next turn, and it's probably even more effective in a build with 4 Chain (I was running 1 Chain, 1 Hurks in the pre-Golem meta).  If you like to play more conservatively, nothing stops you from going turn 1 Necro for 5ish to set up Ad Naus the next turn.  It's also an awesome tutor target against control when you don't have the mana to cast Ad Naus.

Diamond might be slightly better than Chrome after resolving Ad Naus (although I'm not sure because often I don't draw a single land), but Chrome is much better than Diamond in helping to cast Ad Naus in the first place.  Many hands with no land and Chrome are keepable on the play, where Diamond would result in an auto-mull.  The only problem I had with Chrome was sometimes not having extra blue cards to imprint on it, but with the addition of Preordain to the deck this should be less of an issue.

12 Land is what I was running before Golem was printed, so I'm quite confident that it's too little in the current meta.  You really want 15 lands against Workshop decks.  I think 13-14 is correct maindeck, with 1-2 more basics in the board.

I'll give you a bunch of reasons Thoughtseize is better than Pact:
1) Thoughtseize is better against Workshop and Fish decks. Pact does nothing to stop the most dangerous threats like Golem, Sphere, Null Rod, Ethersworn Canonist, etc.
2) Even against control, Thoughtseize has the ability to protect against both counters AND discard.  I've won a lot of games on the play by taking out my opponent's Duress.
3) Thoughtseize can "protect" other spells such as Necro, Twister, Tutors, Ancestral, etc, while Pact only protects Ad Naus or lethal Will. Thoughtseize is simply an all-around good card, while Pact is highly conditional because it's only useful when you're already holding the win (and your opponent has a counter)--otherwise it just sits in your hand.
4) Thoughtseize gives you information about your opponent's hand and deck.
5) It actually disrupts your opponent, which can often be relevant in stopping an early Vault/Key or Oath.
6) Thoughtseize doesn't randomly lose you the game against double counter.
7) Thoughtseize is generally better at helping to build extra storm
7) Thoughtseize doesn't force you to go all-in on Ad Naus if you hit bad flips.

I tested both extensively and Thoughtseize was much better.

I would probably want more Hurkyl's instead of Chains, because Chalice at 1 is devastating.

I'm curious as to how your testing against MUD has been going.  I've practically given up on being able to consistently beat MUD decks with Storm combo (even running Fow and 3 Hurks).

[Killane]

No, the arguement is not that you loose to much once Necro it out, the arguement is that it is actively Dissynegistic with the main Engine of the deck.

Tendrils for 12 and then draw 10 more cards is not good when none of those cards include ways to disrupt your opponent (which they don;t, since Pact is Ptection, Duress effects are Sorcery speed, and you can't realistically run FoW in a Deck with Ad Nauseum). You still end up passing the turn AGAIN. Necro is easier to cast turn 1, with a Ritual. It is ONLY good on turn 1, otherwise is is just as well the 4th Ad Nauseum.

The first sentence and next paragraph seem to disagree with each other.

Have I misinterpreted that whole paragraph or is the purpose to show how once Necro has resolved you are still likely to lose because Tendrils for 12 + draw 10 etc is not good enough to win?  I can see how the lack of Force makes Necro riskier than TPS, but there are plenty of decks that have run Necro without Force, so what else is different here?
I am not saying you are wrong.  It just seems to me that something else is going on.  Perhaps the lack of off color Moxen means Hurkyls + Tendrils is less likely to get lethal damage.  I do not know what the issue is, but I want to understand how a Tendrils deck, that relies heavily on Ad Nauseam, frequently loses with Necropotence out.

i'm not saying it frequently looses with Necro out, I'm saying it's not synergistic with Necro.

I'm also not sure what's hard to understand about the fact that Ad Nausuem gives you the cards on your turn, or on your opponents turn, so you can use all of your sorcery speed spells without having to discard them into the void, whereas necro does not. necro lets you sculpt a hand- in TPS its usually used as set-up for another engine. The thing is, here it actually makes that subsequent engine worse. In long, you use it to find rituals and tutors into will into tendrils - you don't have a bunch of grims here to do that with.

You actually want 4 Ad Naus AND Necro to maximize threat density.  Although it doesn't have the greatest synergy with Ad Naus, Necro is still too good to pass up.  In my testing, aggressive Necro (~13) almost always got there the next turn, and it's probably even more effective in a build with 4 Chain (I was running 1 Chain, 1 Hurks in the pre-Golem meta).  If you like to play more conservatively, nothing stops you from going turn 1 Necro for 5ish to set up Ad Naus the next turn.  It's also an awesome tutor target against control when you don't have the mana to cast Ad Naus.

Diamond might be slightly better than Chrome after resolving Ad Naus (although I'm not sure because often I don't draw a single land), but Chrome is much better than Diamond in helping to cast Ad Naus in the first place.  Many hands with no land and Chrome are keepable on the play, where Diamond would result in an auto-mull.  The only problem I had with Chrome was sometimes not having extra blue cards to imprint on it, but with the addition of Preordain to the deck this should be less of an issue.

12 Land is what I was running before Golem was printed, so I'm quite confident that it's too little in the current meta.  You really want 15 lands against Workshop decks.  I think 13-14 is correct maindeck, with 1-2 more basics in the board.

I'll give you a bunch of reasons Thoughtseize is better than Pact:
1) Thoughtseize is better against Workshop and Fish decks. Pact does nothing to stop the most dangerous threats like Golem, Sphere, Null Rod, Ethersworn Canonist, etc.
2) Even against control, Thoughtseize has the ability to protect against both counters AND discard.  I've won a lot of games on the play by taking out my opponent's Duress.
3) Thoughtseize can "protect" other spells such as Necro, Twister, Tutors, Ancestral, etc, while Pact only protects Ad Naus or lethal Will. Thoughtseize is simply an all-around good card, while Pact is highly conditional because it's only useful when you're already holding the win (and your opponent has a counter)--otherwise it just sits in your hand.
4) Thoughtseize gives you information about your opponent's hand and deck.
5) It actually disrupts your opponent, which can often be relevant in stopping an early Vault/Key or Oath.
6) Thoughtseize doesn't randomly lose you the game against double counter.
7) Thoughtseize is generally better at helping to build extra storm
7) Thoughtseize doesn't force you to go all-in on Ad Naus if you hit bad flips.

I tested both extensively and Thoughtseize was much better.

I would probably want more Hurkyl's instead of Chains, because Chalice at 1 is devastating.

I see your point re: Necro. i still don;t know what to cut for it though.

That's why I only run 1 Diamond. I think 5 of these effects would be too much. Maybe 3/1 split?

What do you base your land number on in shop matchups? Why is 13-15 so much better than 12?

Thoughtseize is way better than pact. I agree. I don't agree that the deck wants 8 duress effects, and I do think it wants at least one Pact to help protect going off when tight on mana. maybe it should be 4/2/2 Seize/Duress/Pact

I've considerd going to 3/2 Chain/Hurk's several times. If I can ever find a good shop player to test against maybe I'll try it out. Chain is soooooooo good though that I really think th deck wants 4.

Chalice at 1 is extremely devestating though.

thought re: land vs Rebuild out of the board as per my previous post?

[Gandalf_The_White_1]

i'm not saying it frequently looses with Necro out, I'm saying it's not synergistic with Necro.

If Necro wins you the game most of the time you resolve it, it belongs in the deck, regardless of lack of synergy.  It doesn't matter that Ad Naus is better--you run 4.  I'd probably run 6 Ad Naus if I could, but I can't.

What do you base your land number on in shop matchups? Why is 13-15 so much better than 12?

Because unless you go off turn 1 on the play, you pretty much need 3 land drops to break their lock, and the extra basics make a huge difference in developing your board so you can bounce and combo.  I tested the Shop match extensively, albeit pre-Golem, and I always sided in 2 basics to go up to 14 land.  Even so, sometimes I found myself lacking land, despite running Bobs to help draw it.

I would not run Rebuild, because it costs too much mana, especially when facing down Spheres.  Post-board against Shops, I would want 15 land and at least 3 Hurks.  Alternatively, you could go for the Serenity board, which seems decent although I haven't tested it.

I don't agree that the deck wants 8 duress effects

Here's where I disagree.  Against Control/Oath/Fish/Combo, you want turn 1 Duress almost every game.  Even against Workshop decks, Duress/Seize isn't horrible when you fetch a swamp to lead with one on the play (and Pact is even worse against them).  I love opening hands with Duress/Seize.

[conboy31]

I proxied/sleeved up a hybrid list between the one posted here and what Sperling used on deckcheck.

What does a person do with this hand, on the play g1 vs. unknown.

polluted delta, ponder, brainstorm, imperial seal, black lotus, necropotence, ad nauseam

I opened up with that hand and have been somewhat mystified.

[Gandalf_The_White_1]

I proxied/sleeved up a hybrid list between the one posted here and what Sperling used on deckcheck.

What does a person do with this hand, on the play g1 vs. unknown.

polluted delta, ponder, brainstorm, imperial seal, black lotus, necropotence, ad nauseam

I opened up with that hand and have been somewhat mystified.

This hand offers a lot of options.  Let's start by considering the end goals of possible lines of play:

1)Turn 1 Necro
2)Turn 1 Ad Naus
3)Turn 2 protected Necro
4)Turn 2 (un)protected Ad Naus

These are the options with this hand, although the line of play for each will branch off depending on what your opponent does.  I haven't included turn 3 plans because that far into the game there are too many unknown variables to address, such as what your opponent does and future draws.

1) is perhaps the most obvious.  Cast Lotus.  If it resolves, cast Necro.  If Lotus is countered, play the fetch and crack it to Seal for Ritual to cast Necro next turn.  If Necro is countered, cast Ponder set up for Ad Naus.

2) is the most aggressive.  Lead with Lotus.  If it resolves, cast Ponder looking for Ritual/Vault/Crypt to play Ad Naus on turn 1.  If the Ad Naus is countered, next turn Brainstorm or Seal depending on what you topdeck, looking to resolve Necro.  If Lotus is countered, seal for Rit to cast Necro next turn. 

3) is the most conservative.  Seal for Duress/Seize, then on turn 2 play Duress/Seize+Lotus-->Necro.

4) depends a lot on what you draw.  turn 1 Seal for Ritual.  Turn 2 cast Brainstorm hoping for land+Duress or PON to protect Lotus->Rit->Ad Naus.  If you don't hit it, bait with Lotus.  If Lotus is countered and you hit a land, play Ritual->Necro.
Alternatively, you could cast Ponder on turn 1 hoping to find what you need to set up for turn 2.

The "See how it goes" options:

5) Rather than planning with a goal in mind you could just go turn 1 Ponder and base what you do on what you see.  I would not Brainstorm on turn 1 because it seems like a waste--Ponder shows you the same number of cards and can let you shuffle, while t1 Brainstorm will only let you filter 1 card.  It's more profitable to Brainstorm on your second turn digging deeper to hopefully get what you need (any black land will allow you to shuffle with Seal).

6) Play Delta, and possibly the Lotus, and pass.  Then on turn 2, cast Brainstorm.  This is slower and less aggressive, but allows you to react to what your opponent is playing.  If they lead with Duress/Seize, for example, you can Brainstorm in response.  It also allows you to hide what you're playing, perhaps bluffing Pierce/Drain for whatever your opponent does.

These are the possible lines of play that jump out at me. 

In general, against an unknown opponent I tend to assume Control, since it's the most commonly played deck in my meta.  So assuming a control opponent, I would go with option 1) for the fast Necro.

If I feared a shop player, I would go with option 2) to try for a first turn kill, since that's the easiest way to win the game.

But since in your scenario the opponent is unknown, I would lean towards option 6), since it gives me a lot more information before I have to commit to a line of play.  It also opens up a lot of sick possible Brainstorms where I can play t2 Ad Naus or protected Necro.

[conboy31]

Thanks for the informative post.  I ended up going lotus -> necro and it got forced.  I then brainstormed and hit accel, putting ad naus on top and was able to play it t2 (I mentally put them on the gencon 1st place list.  Playing around seize then assuming they did not have uu for drain, another force, or pierce).

Having goldfished about 30 hands, it seems appropriate to have necro in the deck.  It amplifys the number of protected and unprotected broken t1 plays.

[Killane]

So over the past week I've carefully considered the arguements in this thread and done a good deal more goldfishing. This is the revised list I've come up with:

Engines

4 Ad Nauseum
1 Timetwister
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Necropotence

Kill

2 Tendrils of Agony

Tutors

1 Demonic Tutor
1 Demonic Consultation
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Imperial Seal

Draw

1 Ancestral Recall
1 Brainstorm
1 Ponder
2 Preordain

Protection

4 Thoughtseize
3 Duress

Bounce

3 Chain of Vapor
2 Hurkyl's Recall

Fast Mana

4 Dark Ritual
1 Cabal Ritual
1 Black Lotus
1 Lotus Petal
1 Sol Ring
1 Mana Vault
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Pearl
2 Chrome Mox
1 Mox Diamond

Land

4 Polluted Delta
2 Marsh Flats
2 Underground Sea
2 Island
2 Swamp
1 Tolarian Academy

Sideboard

4 Emissary of Despair
4 Yixlid Jailer
2 Extirpate
1 Pithing Needle
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Echoing Truth
1 Island
1 Swamp

I dropped the Pact of Negations and 1 Preordain. Went up to 4 Thoughtseize, 3 Duress. Added back Necropotence, and a 13th land. I tested the 7th Fetchland, 3rd U-Sea and 3rd Swamp, and utimately settled on Tolarian Academy. Academy slightly increases the mulligan percentage of the deck, but this deck canhave a real issue going off with a Null Rod in play. With Academy, you can still get your mana out of moxen and it adds an element of explosiveness.

I did not cut Sol Ring. It's too good vs Spheres.


In the sideboard, I changed out the Rebuilds for 2 more basics. Finally, I went to the 3/2 Chain/Hurkyl's split, Given Chalice at 1, and I also have concerns post board about shops sending the chain back at my Emissaries.

The average CMC has gone up to 1.15. This is as high as I am willing to go. Doing the math, you now only get to draw 6-7 cards from Ad nauseum before it starts to get worse than Bargain, which is much fewer than the previous build's 13. However, you still get to draw 13-14 cards on average while at 20 life (assuming you want to keep a 5 life safe buffer). The issue I have is at the 15 life point, wherein the changes loose you more than an tinre card on averagassuming you want to spend 10 life.

I pose the following question: what would you replace the 4th Ad Nauseum with? Adding some qualifiers:

CMC must be under 5. the only reason to cut the 4th Ad nauseum is to reduce the average CMC of the deck, so suggestions of 5+ CMC cards are superfluous since no such card woudl ever be better than the 4th Ad Nauseum.

Please don't suggest Tinker-Jar. I've tested it a billion times and hated it in every deck except TPS. I wish it was good in this deck- I've love an excuse to run a robot out of the board. Sadly, it's been very underwhelming.

Thoughts?

[Gandalf_The_White_1]

Your new list looks a lot better to me.  I wouldn't cut the 4th Ad Naus, though.  You need to maintain your speed and threat denisity.  1.15 should be fine for average CMC (and keep in mind that when you resolve 1 Ad Naus, a max of 3 are left in the deck).

[Killane]

Your new list looks a lot better to me.  I wouldn't cut the 4th Ad Naus, though.  You need to maintain your speed and threat denisity.  1.15 should be fine for average CMC (and keep in mind that when you resolve 1 Ad Naus, a max of 3 are left in the deck).

that's a good point. Take out 1 Ad nauseum and use 59 cards for the Calculation and the average CMC again falls to 1.085. whcih is where I had it at the first time. Getting under that 1.1 mark makes me feel much better.

New Question

Why do you think TPS posts generally better results than this deck? Does the presence of 4xFoW truly make that big a diffence? AdNauseum is a better engine than most of the TPS engines, and engine density is just as high. What factors lead to TPS>ANT in most metagames? Keep in mind, this mana base is just as stable as the TPS base and runs an extra land, so that ain't it.

[Delha]

Keep in mind, this mana base is just as stable as the TPS base and runs an extra land, so that ain't it.

Doesn't Chalice on zero nuke something like six more cards than it would against TPS?

[Killane]

actually, it's only one. TPS runs all five moxen. This drops two for two chrome and a diamond.

[Delha]

actually, it's only one. TPS runs all five moxen. This drops two for two chrome and a diamond.

Ah, got it. I should've looked at the list more closely, I just assumed it was running all five. Apologies for the oversight.

[Killane]

actually, it's only one. TPS runs all five moxen. This drops two for two chrome and a diamond.

Ah, got it. I should've looked at the list more closely, I just assumed it was running all five. Apologies for the oversight.

NP - logical assumption until you consider that the deck really doesn't want the 3 off-color moxen since you basically just need a sourceof two of colored mana pot Ad Nausem to finish going off with the rituals and Crypt/Vault/Sol Ring etc... that you've likely drawn.

[madmanmike25]

I'd like to know what the ANT players think about Mox Opal.  Do you think it could complement your artifact mana, or perhaps even replace a few of the Chomes and/or Diamond?  Surely someone has to see potential.  I'm hoping that it enhances the deck and not just increases goldfishing results.

[Gandalf_The_White_1]

I'd like to know what the ANT players think about Mox Opal.  Do you think it could complement your artifact mana, or perhaps even replace a few of the Chomes and/or Diamond?  Surely someone has to see potential.  I'm hoping that it enhances the deck and not just increases goldfishing results.

Opal is far too conditional to be good in ANT, especially since you don't even run all the off-colour moxes.  I would run extra Mox Diamonds instead of Opal, since I think most of the time you're more likely to have a land in hand than 2 other artifacts on the field.  Personally, however, I don't see how you need more than 4 Chrome+Jet+Lotus+Petal, as long as your average CMC is reasonable.

[Purple Hat]

Opal doesn't solve the problem with ANT: threat density.  I've been thinking about ways to hybridize doomsday into this deck to get the engine count up.

I haven't quite solved this problem yet, but unless wizards prints some extra tutors or extra cheap engines this deck isn't going to get better.  The limiting factor isn't mana, it's business.

[liontruth]

Opal doesn't solve the problem with ANT: threat density.  I've been thinking about ways to hybridize doomsday into this deck to get the engine count up.

I haven't quite solved this problem yet, but unless wizards prints some extra tutors or extra cheap engines this deck isn't going to get better.  The limiting factor isn't mana, it's business.

AMEN.

[Shax]

Let's be honest. With Gush and MUD going to be taking out most of the meta, and Ichorid still being well positioned. So why not run the fastest deck, with the exception of Belcher's 100% kill rate on activation. Key there being activation. ANT can fight Null Rod's, and if your running Belcher your most likely running Guttural Response Pyroblast etc, or some combination. Channel? Cool. Force of Will?... Ad Nausem has Pact of Negation and Duress effects of it's own. Ad Nausem's engine is better than a resolved Yawgmoth's Bargain if built right. Since we have things like Chrome Mox this is easier for us. Tendrils has always been the most consistant way in the game to get the job done. We run Demonic Consultation and most bomb effects as well. If I weret to build a list today off the top of my head it'd look like this.

ANT"F"This''Deck

Lands
4X Underground Sea
4X Polluted Delta
1x Swamp
1x Island
2x Misty Rainforest

Spells:
1x Yawgmoth's Will
1x Demonic Tutor
1x Black Lotus
1x Mox Jet
1x Mox Sapphire
1x Sol Ring
1x Mana Crypt
1x Mana Vault
1x Mox Pearl
1x Mox Ruby
1x Mox Emerald
4x Dark Ritual
1x Lotus Petal
1x Demonic Consultation
4x Chrome Mox
1x Ancestral Recall
1x Ponder
3x Chain of Vapor
1x Hurkyl's Recall
1x Lion' Eye Diamond
1x Sensei's Divining Top
1x Doomsday
1x Mystical Tutor
1x Branstorm
1x Vampiric Tutor
4x Duress
1x Cabal Ritual
2x Tendrils of Agony
4x Pact of Negation
4x Ad  Naueseam

Sideboard:
1x Chain of Vapor
3x Hurkyl's Recall
1x Tormods Crypt
1x Echoing Truth
4x Slaughter Pact
3x Extirpate
2x Thoughtseize

Card choices here are mostly obvious. The main dfference here is that I'm running Doomsday OVER Necropotence? Why you ask? And Sensei's Top and no Tolarian Academy? I'm crazy aren't I. Well our basic Island is there for wasteland comfort against MUD and for all our pretty bounc effects maindeck and sideboard. The best thing about Doomsday is that you can use this card no matter what the life. When your actually using Ad Nauseam Doomsday is a great card to use after you get alot of cards in your hand tha don't translate into a win, or if you spent to much life using ADN*. You can use this card also as a god version of regrowth, with Sensei' Top this card just says GG. Like, I highly advocate tryin out Doomsday alot, maybe in multiples even. It's just a situationally better Necro in ANT. And Lion's Eye Diamond is just too balling to not use in this deck since we're trying to actually win. It' also 0, which is very relevant again. Tormod's Crypt cost 0, so against dredge we board out our Pacts, but we gain only 3 cards with a mana cost. Pact? Too good not to use in ANT. Against Shops just boardem out and board in Thoughtseize, an all your blue bounce. Shit usually always works, and supplements OUR win with storm. Slaughter Pact is for creatures that think they're too good to succumb to ANT (Teeg, Cannonist,  all the combo hosers.) I liked the idea of Extirpate, and it's too good against Blue and makes us have an actually advantage at a late game comeback if theres no gas for them. (Gush and friends!). I'm thinking two Thoughtseize makes 6 duress effects, and helps with everything you would think to need it for. We're the ones trying to win here, we have the best engine and kill condition. ANT is always on the blast, or atleast I thought. Only things that can advance our gameplan post Ad Nauseam is what I need in my Nauseam list, so Diamond and Doomsday are perfect fits. The 3 Maindeck Chains are a must, and the Recall is there. Do I mention I'm using full playsets of the good blue bounce and a Echoing Truth? Don't be scared of artifacts or permanents. I win most games I play with Nauseam because it abuses the Ritual pillar better than the others.

[LotusHead]

You run 15 artifacts maindeck. Most of them cost 0. Your argument against Tolarian Academy is invalid.

Also, with MUD/Sphere.dec being a sizable part of the metagame, ANT is a terrible choice of decks.

If your goal is winning all game 1s by winning the die roll and getting first turn kill, and hoping for the best game 2 and 3, then Meandeck already tried that out (SX I think it was called, Storm 10).

You have 4 outs to first turn sphere/chalice.  But MUD players could very well drop 2 lock pieces on the first turn.  Good luck with your build though.  Your sideboard does seem to address that issue.

Don't take any of this personally, as my only experience is from the powered NorCal metagame.

[Killane]

Yeah, I'm pretty convinced at this point that Storm is not a valid choice until Lodestone gets restricted.

[Shax]

You must be flattering my Sideboard, then. Yes, we have little outs to MUD. But are you really so afraid of Spheres and Golem that much? There is a reason Blue, regardless of whether it runs Gush or runs Dark Ritual, is still topping over the dominant MUD. MUD isn't consistant enough to warrant more than 4 bounce and then 5 bounce preboard then sideboard.  My argument against Tolarian Academy is valid, for the sole reason on it being legendary, and that in a ANT deck. If I'm going to have a land, it's my Island, Swamp, or Underground Sea. Tolarian works really good with storm like Mind's Desire, but in my list this doesn't remain true since I focus my land base to always give me a shot at using Dark Ritual -> Ad Nauseam, win. Or Ritual -> Doomsday conditional win. It's Legendary! If I really wanted cards that do NOTHING (See Time Vault Key) by thereselves, or in a situational gamestate, (opponents tolarain) I would use them. Lion's Eye Diamond is already situational enough for me, along with Doomsday. They supplement my need for black, more than my need for Blue in ANT. If you notice in my list, there isn't a single Blue card that cost   . Tolarain is better when you run Drain, and Desire etc..

 And my goal isn't to win all game ones by winning the die roll. My goal is to win my matches by using a better deck positioned in my metagame along with 15 cards in my sideboard I trust to win me games against Shops, and Blue specifically with ANT. Realistically typing, since Gush and MUD are what I usually should worry about. But Slaughter Pact is free, kills creatures and does nothing to my draw engine. And my grave hate is enough to slow down graveyard based decks, and take cheap shots at blue/Welder Stacks. My goal in my deck was simple; Design a build I think is the most synergistic with the colors avalable, with the strongest draw engine in the game arguably, and then have everything else to hose the bandwagon deck riders. Hurkyl's Recall is damn good at stopping artifacts, thats why I've got 4.

Anyways, the difference here between ANT and TPS is that TPS is stronger against MUD, and TPS although being a combo deck in the meta full of spheres, can hold off shit with FoW, but I'd rather take a game loss or two to MUD, and win in a battle between Blue and other Combo all the same. Blue always will be the best deck, or atleast SEEM to be the best deck, or atleast is going to be taking at minimum 25-50% of a metagame at any given time. Of course, thats a faulty statistic because I've seen top 8s with nothing but MUD, or tourneys with noone using blue. But for this given meta with Gush, I'm atleast expecting lots of Gush and Shops. Sometimes you put your balls on the line to play with the jungle cats. And Killane, Storm is still valid, it just recently top 8'd. Magic is also a game of luck, long with strategy. I'm just conviced you people think MUD is going to draw it's god hand every time, and then wreck you. I'd rather play this than Dredge or Belcher, preferring Dredge since it can still win with a land being Fallout Las Vegased.