Pyromancer Ascension

[NilsH]

I think you're missing the point. While I agree AK should not be in the deck, Intuition for DA is also wrong. The entire point of Intu->Dart is that you get Ascension active on the cheap. QS->DA costs , which is still nearly twice what you pay with Dart.

DA is not the only way to turn on Ascension. I usally use a Grugde and a random to turn it on (random=preordain, QS, DA or Dart) - Just go with the flow QS for 3x Dart is probably the fastest at   and 2 mountains... but that's not the point.

It's not all about turning on Ascension, that's not usally the problem. The hardest part is to find Ascension (Intution can act as tutor, which could help the problem).

Int for 3x Dart isn't very good before you've found an Ascension... On the other hand QS for 2x DA, Grudge or 2x Grudge, DA is good both before (and after) you have Ascension.
Of course you can do Intution for simular piles, but QS is notable faster. And if you search for a single DA(and 2 other cards) with Int it will get stuck in your hand.

Swapping Intu for Quiet Spec to enable DA is a case of changing your deck to enable a weaker play, at the expense of the stronger play already available to you.

Sorry, didn't catch this. Care to explain?

[Delha]

It's not all about turning on Ascension, that's not usally the problem. The hardest part is to find Ascension (Intution can act as tutor, which could help the problem).

Int for 3x Dart isn't very good before you've found an Ascension... On the other hand QS for 2x DA, Grudge or 2x Grudge, DA is good both before (and after) you have Ascension.

I think this kind of answers itself. If the problem is finding Ascension in the first place, Intu helps with that (as you pointed out yourself). If you don't have Ascension, then which is better: Intu for 3xAscension, or QS for Grudge/DA? This deck doesn't really do a whole lot the opponent cares about until Ascension is active.
 

Swapping Intu for Quiet Spec to enable DA is a case of changing your deck to enable a weaker play, at the expense of the stronger play already available to you.

Sorry, didn't catch this. Care to explain?

Just that Intu->Dart is better at turning on Ascension than Intu->DA. Replacing Intu with QS just supports the weaker of those two plays. I realize that QS->Dart is faster still, but I suspect that the land loss makes that line of play too inconsistent. I'm admittedly less certain of that last bit.

Edit: Fixed quotes

[NilsH]

There are two reasons I don't like Int for 3x Ascension:

1) If your Ascension gets hit (Counter, Pridemage, Nature's Claim etc) you only have one left in your library. Which means you'll have a hard time assembling the combo.
2) I have a low curve with few lands and lots of spells with cc<=2. Hence I'll miss my 3rd landdrop/mana source some of the time. Which will make Intuition a mid-game play, so Int for Ascesion won't be fast enough most of the time.

(Btw I really like intuition and I've played with it a lot, I just can't make it work the way I want in my list )

I think Imperial Seal should be tested. I forgot about the card when I posted my list.

[Delha]

1. While that's mostly true, I'd much rather have plenty of ways to grab an Ascension and try to protect it than get stuck digging for one with bad draw spells while my opponent plays real cards.

2. Why make yourself even more vulnerable to Chalice @ 2 than you already are (since Ascension is already on 2). Have you tested against Fish/MUD? If the deck can't consistently hit three mana, I'm not sure how it stands a chance against heavy mana denial strats.

At the end of the day, I think the most important question is this: Do you think it's worth it trying to pass the turn back (probably twice) while trying to get Ascension online? Assuming you have it on the table already, Intu lets you get it active and go off on a single turn. QS will almost always take 2-3 turns.

[meadbert]

My guess is your opponent should care about Quiet Speculation for 3 DA.  That is 6 cards you are about to draw of this one card.

[Delha]

Yeah, but it costs and 9 life. There are much better ways to get cards than that.

The first tangible benefit is when you've paid and 3 life for two cards. From a purely card draw perspective, one might as well be casting Jace.

[meadbert]

Assuming a mox on turn 1 and then you hit your first 3 land drops you get +5 card advantage by turn 3.

Jace only gives +1 card advantage in that same scenario.  I am not saying QS is better than Jace at all.  I am just saying that it is good.

Note that Bob would draw 2 card + have himself in the same scenario.

[NilsH]

Yeah, but it costs and 9 life. There are much better ways to get cards than that.

The first tangible benefit is when you've paid and 3 life for two cards. From a purely card draw perspective, one might as well be casting Jace.

There is a huge difference betweem and + .

Assuming a mox on turn 1 and then you hit your first 3 land drops you get +5 card advantage by turn 3.

I feel land + mox + QS first turn is underrated. I didn't think it would be good myself before I tested it. You might want to think of it this way: A first turn QS for DA, DA and Grudge is simular to a Demonic Tutor getting Night's Whisper, Night's Whisper and Oxidize... except it is on-color and you have 4 of them... I think that's pretty good.

Also I want to highlight that a first turn QS for DA made me hit my 3rd mana source reliably. After a first turn QS I could flashback a DA, hit my second land and hold up a Spell Pierce for my opponent next play.
The only problem I see with this play is that I'm vulnerable after my QS (as it is a sorcery), but I think it's worth it. And I have answers to more common plays in Grudge and LDarts.

I don't have this option with Intuition.

Jace only gives +1 card advantage in that same scenario.  I am not saying QS is better than Jace at all.  I am just saying that it is good.

Both are good, but they fill different roles. Jace's CC=4 is a bit high, and it won't trigger Ascension

[meadbert]

I doubt it would work, but for triggering Ascension there is also Isochron Scepter.

[Delha]

As before though, the lifeloss is far from negligible. If your opponent has an early Goyf or Juggy(to say nothing of Golem), starting at half life will get you wrecked.

Scenario 1 (with Intu):
T1: Land, Mox, Ascension.
T2: Land, pass. EOT, Intu.
T3: Dart, Dart.
At this point you have two mana open (three if you make another drop) to start going crazy.

Scenario 2 (with QS):
T1: Land, Mox, QS.
T2: Land, Ascension.
T3: Land, DA, DA.
At this point you have no mana, no land drop, and have to pass the turn again before casting anything else of note.

The first scenario has mana up for Pierce on T2 and T3 while only needing to make two drops. The second has it open on T2 only, and that's with a heavier land drop requirement than the first.

Ultimately, my point is this: Let's say you open with QS into DA over. Now what? This deck is not full of broken plays to really leverage that CA into a quick win. Ascension is the tool that turns mediocre spells into real threats. While we're paying mana to Necro inefficiently, the opponent is casting real bombs.

You said you've been testing this list (I'll readily admit I haven't), so I'd like to ask... What matchups are you testing, and how have they been going? What lines of play do you typically make after QS->DA?

[NilsH]

Scenario 1 (with Intu):
T1: Land, Mox, Ascension.
T2: Land, pass. EOT, Intu.
T3: Dart, Dart.
At this point you have two mana open (three if you make another drop) to start going crazy.

You need cards in GY to turn on Ascension. In the scenarios when you don't have a Intution, a first turn Ascension won't do much. Obviously the play above is good, but it won't play out like that every time.

Scenario 2 (with QS):
T1: Land, Mox, QS.
T2: Land, Ascension.
T3: Land, DA, DA.
At this point you have no mana, no land drop, and have to pass the turn again before casting anything else of note.

Playing 2 DA on your 3rd turn is the wrong play most of the time. I usally search for DA DA Grudge, or Grudge Grudge DA. The cards I search for with QS largery depends on what my oppnent plays and what's in my hand. If I have a LDart in hand I'll search for a LDart to assemble the combo quickly.
I would play one DA and hold 2 mana up. Then I have mana open for Grudge (Flashback or from hand), LDart or a Spell Pierce. You should be able to have an active Ascencion on at the end of your opponents turn or on your 4th turn with this play without being vulnerable to blowouts.

As before though, the lifeloss is far from negligible. If your opponent has an early Goyf or Juggy(to say nothing of Golem), starting at half life will get you wrecked.

If I see Juggy or Golems I'll most likely search for Grudges rather then DA. I don't have an answer to Goyf, but Goyf is not big when he comes down early.

The first scenario has mana up for Pierce on T2 and T3 while only needing to make two drops. The second has it open on T2 only, and that's with a heavier land drop requirement than the first.

You should be able to hold up Pierce in both scenarios. The second scenario turns on Ascension with relevant spells like DA, Grudge and Preordain, while the first one just burn for 1 (some times that's good to, I know ).

Ultimately, my point is this: Let's say you open with QS into DA over. Now what?

I just roll over and die I try to counter relevant stuff with Pierce and FoW, hit moxes and othter artifacts with grudges and kill utility dudes with LDart, while I look for Ascension. I should be able to land Ascension within my 3rd turn.

You said you've been testing this list (I'll readily admit I haven't), so I'd like to ask... What matchups are you testing, and how have they been going? What lines of play do you typically make after QS->DA?

I can't say I've tested this heavily, just a few matches online. It's been doing well so far, but I don't say it's perfect. I don't claim it to be competative either, but it's at least fun to play and people don't expect it.

[Delha]

In reading your responses, I think I see where the disconnect lies.

I was looking at the deck as wanting to get Ascension online asap, whereas you appear to be taking a slower, control, styled approach. In that light, I can certainly agree that QS is a much better tool than Intu. It's certainly much better at turning on reliable control packages, for a start.

I suppose I should have realized this when you first started listing QS packages, but it just didn't click at the time. What really drove it home was the fact that you didn't seem to care at all about taking it slow and passing the turn back. That said, thanks for being so patient and good natured about the discussion. I know I've butted heads with plenty of people over less.

[BruiZar]

Edit.

I would play -1 Deep Analysis +1 Thirst for Knowledge.
I would play with gamble, because it gets you a missing piece in hand or graveyard. Its good for setup and it becomes stupid good with Ascension online.
I would consider Clockspinning, because it turns Ascension on quickly (read: casting one clockspinning gives you 2 counters if you can put one in the yard before.), it also depletes tangle wires and keeps smokestack at 0, has buyback and pitching to FoW.

Mana- 23
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Misty Rainforest
3 Volcanic Island
2 Tropical Island
1 Underground Sea
1 Black Lotus
1 Lotus Petal
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mana Crypt
1 Sol Ring

Counters - 8
4 Force of Will
4 Spell Pierce

Draw, Combo and Setup - 24
4 Pyromancer Ascension
4 Preordain
4 Quiet Speculation
3 Deep Analysis
2 Ancient Grudge
3 Lavadart
3 Call to Mind
1 Regrowth

Misc - 5
1 Time Walk
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Vampiric Tutor

[NilsH]

How bout Steady Progress?
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=110233&d=1283745851

Or other cards with Proliferate?

[meadbert]

So some of my previous comments were wrong because I had misread the card.

Scepter does not work.  Loam does not work unless you have 2.

Raven's Crime does seem pretty good though.  First you can pay  to get Ascension online and then after that you only need to discard a land and play  to force an opponent to discard two cards.

The other decent Retrace card is Flame Jab which is sort of like Lava Dart.

[BruiZar]

How bout Steady Progress?
image
Or other cards with Proliferate?

Steady Progress is a yes for me. Gets ascension online quickly, cantrips, and draws 2 after ascension is online. Worth testing.

[Delha]

Scepter does not work.

Using the imprinted spell on scepter DOES count as casting. It will count toward Ascension so long as the other condition (a copy in the grave) is met.

[NilsH]

Scepter does not work.

Using the imprinted spell on scepter DOES count as casting. It will count toward Ascension so long as the other condition (a copy in the grave) is met.

True. My thoughts on this is a Scepter should be good enough on it's own (imprint Mana Drain or something), so it would be a "win-more".

Anyone dare to suggest a new list using Steady Progress (prolifirate)? I'm not sure it would fit my current list using QS. As earlier mentioned I would start cutting 1 Call to Mind, 1 QS, 1 Lotus Petal, but I would prefer to use those slots for more answers/business rather than more draw.


Maybe cut the QS-engine? Increase the mana sources to 26-27 (from 22-23). and use Intution, Steady Progress and overall a bit higher curve? Thoughts?

[BruiZar]

btw Steady Progress can actually turn on 2 pyromancer's acsensions with 1 steady progress due to proliferate as long as you have 1 in the graveyard.

[NilsH]

How 'bout something along these lines? I'm a bit worrid about having to many 1- and 2-ofs. I want to keep this list away from Highlander

// Lands
    2  Tropical Island
    1  Underground Sea
    4  Scalding Tarn
    2  Misty Rainforest
    3  Volcanic Island
    1  Island
    1  Mountain
    1  Strip Mine

// Spells
    1 [BIN] Mana Crypt
    1  Sol Ring
    1  Black Lotus
    1  Mox Sapphire
    1  Mox Ruby
    1  Mox Emerald
    1  Mox Jet
    1  Mox Pearl

    4  Pyromancer Ascension
    4  Preordain
    4  Steady Progress

    2  Intuition
    3  Flame Jab
    2  Ancient Grudge
    2  Call to Mind
    1  Regrowth
    1  Life from the Loam

    4  Force of Will
    4  Spell Pierce

    1  Imperial Seal
    1  Time Walk
    1  Ancestral Recall
    1  Yawgmoth's Will
    1  Demonic Tutor
    1  Vampiric Tutor