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Author Topic: Magic TV #51 - Vintage Championship  (Read 3366 times)
Prospero
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« on: August 13, 2010, 10:58:53 pm »

Here's the link to Tristan Shaun Gregson and LSV's most recent Magic TV episode:

http://strategy.channelfireball.com/videos/magic-tv-show-51-vintage-championship/

It elicited a pretty strong response from me, and I have decided to post it here (as well as on ChannelFireball)
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Seems like this boils down to two issues:

I.  Card availability/cost/reprint policy

II.  Support/location for Vintage Champs

The card availability is static and the reprint policy guarantees that.  Wizards can seemingly do one of two things - have the Vintage Champs tournament on MODO - where they have allowed themselves a loophole to 'print' digital cards through the reprint policy, or have something like expiring proxies - which would, in theory, only last for a certain time period (6 months, a year, I'm not sure...) before they could no longer be used. 

I - MODO

I don't play MODO and I almost strictly play Vintage at this point.  If Vintage Champs were switched to a MODO tournament, and there was a means for the committed Vintage players to re-obtain power/staples for little cost, I could see it being popular.  Time zones would be tough (most of the active Vintage community in Europe is six hours ahead of Eastern Standard Time), but I would imagine that the event would have much better support than the current one does.  People manage to play MODO PTQ's, I could see them getting up early/staying up late to participate in a format that they love.

Given what some of the Legacy staples go for on MODO, I have a tough time seeing many people commit to this if cost is as significant an entry barrier as it would likely be.  I have a collection that is worth more than $8,000 right now and I have zero interest in converting it into something digital, or spending additional money to pick up all the things that I would need in order to play what I want to play.  I have Drains, duals, Forces, Workshops, black bordered power and virtually every staple that I need.  Why am I going to buy that all over again?

Finally, part of the joy of an event is actually being at the event.  I want to have an opponent sitting across from me, and I want to interact with him over the course of the match.  I could play a MMORPG if I wanted to.  I don't, because the social aspect of the tournament has real value and I'm not going to sacrifice that.

II - Expiring proxies

Expiring proxies offer a temporary solution to the problem of card availability.  They would affect the value of the originals - though the extent to which they would affect the value is incalculable.  If your Mox Pearl is the same as mine for 6 months, and you opened yours as a, functionally, mythic token, how much is yours worth?  And what does it do to mine?  I don't know, and I would have a tough time accepting any argument that dealt with this question with certitude.

Wizards could turn it into a continuous marketing ploy that would seem to make good money for pack sales.  It would, however, also support a secondary market that Wizards does not profit from.  Dealers, albeit online dealers such as SCG, ChannelFireball, etc., or small local dealers, would benefit tremendously.  If expiring proxies were printed, I could see a kind of tide swell effect, where many of the staples of the format (that have already gone up because of Legacy) go up a little more.  If you were intent on playing Noble Fish, and there is a 10% increase in demand, those Wastelands that were going to run you $23 per are now going to run you more than that.  What do they go to?  $25? $30? $35?  If Force of Will can fluctuate between $35-$50, is it really such an alien concept to see Wasteland mirror it in this regard?

If the cards were more readily available Vintage Champs would probably have netted more players.  The 15 proxy standard that started in the U.S. and has not found its way to Europe has certainly hurt American Vintage.  Still, if you were at Gencon and you had the opportunity to essentially port the majority of your Legacy deck over to Vintage via expiring proxies, I would imagine that you would, all things being equal. 

III - What Does It All Mean?

Between the two options, I would imagine that Wizards would go the MODO route, if they went one at all.  MODO is tremendously popular, and there is a market for Vintage that Wizards has a difficult time exploiting.  The 'printing' of digital cards would certainly be profitable, though, once again, the extent of the popularity is difficult to gauge.  Expiring proxies may boost pack sales of the current sets (an 'official proxy' Black Lotus is the closest thing that most of us will ever come to in terms of opening a Black Lotus), but I find it tough to accept that Wizards would ever truly promote this, as I believe that they're aware that there is a finite amount of Magic that even the most devoted aficionado would play.  If they are given the opportunity of selling you packs of a current set (a set that you need to play your Standard/Extended/Block deck) or using those packs to insert cards that push you to a secondary market that does not involve them, I can't see how the smart fiscal decision for Wizards is to push players to secondary dealers and sacrifice sales on their end.

I love Vintage, but I think it's pretty much going to stay where it's at.  It will be heavily reliant upon T/O's and stores that have chosen to support the format.  While a tier one 15 proxy Vintage deck may run you less than your Legacy (or Mythic Standard) deck, it's still a fair amount of money to drop on a format that isn't 'competitive'. 

If Champs gets upgraded, I don't know that it would actually be for the better.  I think, after all this typing, that the best option is the status quo.  It sucks that the format that I love is never going to have the massive turnout that I would love to see, but it's better than watching many of the alternatives...
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« Reply #1 on: August 13, 2010, 11:17:09 pm »

My favorite line in that is, "Most people wouldn't consider it champs....there a lot of people who need to be at vintage champs.....me (LSV), sperling, Ochoa....."
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« Reply #2 on: August 14, 2010, 04:18:16 am »

I wonder what wizards would actually do if every single vintage player on the planet showed up to the championship?  Very Happy
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« Reply #3 on: August 14, 2010, 04:30:53 am »

Sadly one of the problems we Europeans have with calling "Vintage Champs" Actual champs is that we host bigger events down here all year long, the majority of Vintage players seems to be from Europe so host it at a PT / GP or game convention IN Europe. I'd be pretty curious how WoTC would react or if they would be surprised if they got "BoM" size attendance that way, as it seems they have no clue how big Vintage actually is across the pond.

I'd love to see them try something like that some day, as for pro's not attending because it's not worth the time, there's an easy solution to that as well, you host it pre-PT, when us "mere mortals" are playing in LCQ's and what not 1-2 days before the PT you just host Champs so the Pro players are already attending an event that IS worth their time so they'll have the chance to compete without having to travel "just" for Vintage.
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« Reply #4 on: August 14, 2010, 07:41:51 am »

What about offering a slot to worlds (or another pt) for the winner?  That seems like a low cost way to boost attendance for all three champs events at gencon, and would give some extra prestige for the winner.
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« Reply #5 on: August 14, 2010, 11:38:21 am »

My favorite line in that is, "Most people wouldn't consider it champs....there a lot of people who need to be at vintage champs.....me (LSV), sperling, Ochoa....."

While I do agree it's strange to have a 117 people tournament be the world's "Vintage Championship" (when BOM4 had 3 times the number of players), I find it extremely arrogant to say "It's not Vintage Champs unless me and my buddies are there.". It's not like the tournament was lacking high-profile Vintage players either...
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« Reply #6 on: August 14, 2010, 12:20:05 pm »

I wonder what wizards would actually do if every single vintage player on the planet showed up to the championship?  Very Happy

give it no coverage, lose the decklists, and give out god awful prizes?
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« Reply #7 on: August 14, 2010, 01:36:38 pm »

As I can remember, BoM3 had less than 200 in attendence. I beleive I saw "Vintage Champs" in the title also,was that a big deal to americans then?..I may be wrong.
The truth is that Wizards throws us a bone each year and alot of the players seem to not care about the event because of weak prize support.
If people here on US soil won't show up to our own events why would people from around the world attend?
I agree the prizes should be bigger/better, but I thought Vintage was full of people that love to play the game. I would have attended GenCon this year but I could't get the days off work and I could not obtain the missing cards I needed in time anyway. I was looking forward to getting my hands on that Mox Sapphire painting Sad  Wink
 I understand money IS an issue in any case, but for those that COULD have made it but just "did not feel it was worth their time", seriously?
The only way we will see an event with a turn-out such as BoM will be if T/O's from all over the US gather and make such an event possible,combining the prize support. Maybe have the Vintage community vote where we should have the Vintage Champs.

Ultimately, the title "Vintage Champs" is not the issue here, it is the lack of support not from Wizards alone but from our own Type1 community as well.
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« Reply #8 on: August 14, 2010, 03:36:13 pm »

My favorite line in that is, "Most people wouldn't consider it champs....there a lot of people who need to be at vintage champs.....me (LSV), sperling, Ochoa....."

I think that just gave me extra motivation to wanna beat them 2-0.
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« Reply #9 on: August 14, 2010, 08:03:40 pm »

The truth is that Wizards throws us a bone each year and alot of the players seem to not care about the event because of weak prize support.

I think this is the real issue.  Gencon is $75 to register, plus $20/tournament.  Plus hotel, airfare/gas, meals, etc.  They give away the painting for 1st, which is great, but then they give away packs for 2-16 which are worth very little.  I think they should give away promo cards of Vintage playables to the top 8 or top 16, similar to what they did with the full art Mutavault.  They could be stamped "Vintage Champs 2010" or something.  How many people would show up for a chance to win a playable foil Mox?  Or Bazaar, Workshop, Mana Drain, Tolarian Academy, etc.?  I would bet that attendance would go way up.  A lot of Vintage players aren't willing to play for (mostly) pride, and I can't blame them, especially when it involves a flight across an ocean.
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« Reply #10 on: August 14, 2010, 09:30:47 pm »

The truth is that Wizards throws us a bone each year and alot of the players seem to not care about the event because of weak prize support.

I think this is the real issue.  Gencon is $75 to register, plus $20/tournament.  Plus hotel, airfare/gas, meals, etc.  They give away the painting for 1st, which is great, but then they give away packs for 2-16 which are worth very little.  I think they should give away promo cards of Vintage playables to the top 8 or top 16, similar to what they did with the full art Mutavault.  They could be stamped "Vintage Champs 2010" or something.  How many people would show up for a chance to win a playable foil Mox?  Or Bazaar, Workshop, Mana Drain, Tolarian Academy, etc.?  I would bet that attendance would go way up.  A lot of Vintage players aren't willing to play for (mostly) pride, and I can't blame them, especially when it involves a flight across an ocean.
That's not a bad solution, unfortunately a) some of the cards you mention are on the reserved list, and b) Wizards doesn't really have an incentive to support Vintage.  Vintage competes with the other formats that are more profitable.

After restarting playing Vintage in 2008, I have not yet gone to a GenCon, because I don't currently own a Mox Jet or a Black Lotus, which are basically the only obstacles preventing me from playing the deck I'd want to play without any proxies (Grim Tutor and Imperial Seal if I wanted to play with those as well).  I look forward to the first GenCon I travel to play in, we'll see about next year.
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« Reply #11 on: August 14, 2010, 11:06:57 pm »

I agree that Wizards doesn't pay much attention to Vintage, and they don't really have much motivation to do so.  However, as Ten-Ten says, they throw us a bone once a year.  As long as they're doing that, they might as well try to make it highly attended and awesome.  I don't think the reserved list would be an issue, since these would be the promo-est of all promos.  Wizards is willing to print things on the reserved list as promos (e.g. Phyrexian Negator was in Phyrexia vs. the Coalition).  The actual designing and printing would cost them essentially nothing, but it would propel Vintage Champs ahead light years. 
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« Reply #12 on: August 15, 2010, 01:35:29 am »

I couldn't attend Gencon this year and don't have the cards to play unsanctioned Vintage (I'm 18) but aside from the obvious bragging rights and semi national appeal the tournament is abysmal from a prize standpoint.  My friend who was at Gencon but does not play Vintage was offered to play but said to me that he would rather save his money even though he could have played pretty much any deck.  It seems like the problem is that aside from a painting or money which they wouldn't give out they are hosting a tournament targeted at the people who magicwise have it all.  Giving out Power etc. would be cool but the person who wins this power probably already has it.  You would have to target the audience better to get real turnout by doing something like what BC said but why would they?  Wizards has nothing to gain and nothing to lose with "Vintage Champs" as they have shown time and time again but can you really blame them?
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« Reply #13 on: August 15, 2010, 09:08:14 am »

I couldn't attend Gencon this year and don't have the cards to play unsanctioned Vintage (I'm 18) but aside from the obvious bragging rights and semi national appeal the tournament is abysmal from a prize standpoint.  My friend who was at Gencon but does not play Vintage was offered to play but said to me that he would rather save his money even though he could have played pretty much any deck.  It seems like the problem is that aside from a painting or money which they wouldn't give out they are hosting a tournament targeted at the people who magicwise have it all.  Giving out Power etc. would be cool but the person who wins this power probably already has it.  You would have to target the audience better to get real turnout by doing something like what BC said but why would they?  Wizards has nothing to gain and nothing to lose with "Vintage Champs" as they have shown time and time again but can you really blame them?

They will have done all nine paintings soon. 

Maybe it's time to just give out a cup (instead of 'spending thousands' on the painting) and give out power.  They took nearly $3,000 in entries in (117 x$25 = $2925) - with the arrangement that they had with SCG, don't you think that they could have done a tournament with power to top 8?  They're already losing money on the tournament, why not break even and offer a prize that players could use, combined with a title that appeals to all of our egos?
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