BrassDredge at Hadley Grudge Match

[TheBrassMan]

I played Dredge last saturday at the "Grudge Match" event in Hadely, MA to a top 8 finish.  I would have liked to write a tournament report but I'm really terrible at taking notes.  (I find, historically, that note-taking negatively affects my results.)  I've been disappointed with "big blue"'s ability to win the workshop matchup, and disappointed with Shops inability to beat dredge.  Expecting both Shops and Dredge from my foreign rivals (none of whom showed up), I sleeved up dredge myself.

3 Leyline of the Void
4 Bridge from Below
2 Dread Return
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Nature's Claim
3 Darkblast
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
4 Bloodghast
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Narcomoeba
2 Ichorid
1 Golgari Thug
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
1 Flame-Kin Zealot
4 Undiscovered Paradise
2 Petrified Field
2 Dakmor Salvage
2 City of Brass
4 Bazaar of Baghdad
4 Serum Powder
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Lion's Eye Diamond

SB:

1 Leyline of the Void
1 Nature's Claim
4 Chain of Vapor
2 Wispmare
4 Encroach
2 City of Brass
1 Ichorid

I'm happy with the list for the most part, but there's room for work.  I expected a very diverse meta, with about an even mix of "The big six" (tez, oath, tps, stax, fish, mirror).  The points I wanted to hit while building were:

1. Don't mulligan out of game one
2. Don't lose to Wasteland
3. Don't lose to the mirror

Lion's Eye Diamond and Ancestral were attempts to solve problem 1, Ancestral I'm happy with but LED was a failure.  I'm still looking for a good answer to this problem before I go around calling myself a dredge player.

While I only finished 8th, the deck felt a little stronger than that.  I lost two matches, in the swiss I lost to Tezzeret, who killed me on turn 2 with force backup for my Nature's Claim on his Time Vault.  In the top 8 I lost to noble fish with what looked like very little dredge hate, strongly influenced by some questionable play on my part - things would have been very different with either a little more luck or some slightly tighter play.

In all other matches I didn't lose a game, including beating an opening of turn 1 leyline + jailer, turn 3 another leyline.

Any questions? suggestions? potential solutions to my "problem number 1" ?

[Womba]

Could you go into some detail on your reasons for including Encroach and how it worked out for you?

As for problem one, unless your Jake Gans, I believe it will just happen sometimes due to the nature of how the deck operates. The only way to really help that problem would be to go with a mana build. Although while adding Careful Study and Breakthrough, this probably will hurt your other match-ups postboard, especially Stax. It would depend on what your taking out because you would be moving away from the defensive build shell that includes chalice, leyline, and other maindeck answers to problem cards (Claim, Vapor, and Darkblast).



Edit:

Just shooting from the hip here but maybe something like this might work.....



4 Bloodghast
4 Narcomoeba
4 Golgari-Grave Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Bridge from Below
3 Careful Study
3 Breakthrough
4 Bazaar of Baghdad
2 Ichorid
4 Undiscovered Paradise
3 Cephalid Coliseum
2 City of Brass
2 Dread Return
2 Golgari Thug
1 Woodfall Primus
1 Flame-Kin Zealot
1 Black Lotus
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Dakmar Salvage
4 Chalice of the Void / Leyline of the Void (Meta Call)
2 Chain of Vapor

[Troy_Costisick]

Lion's Eye Diamond and Ancestral were attempts to solve problem 1, Ancestral I'm happy with but LED was a failure.  I'm still looking for a good answer to this problem before I go around calling myself a dredge player.

Deep Analysis is better than Ancestral if you're going to rely on LED to avoid mulligans.  But I wouldn't rely on LED for that.  Lotus Petal would be better for playing A-call.  Clever idea, though.

[TheBrassMan]

I wont hesitate to admit that Encroach is a pet card for me.  I ran it with great success in the GAT vs GAT era, before Painter came along and blew the format out of the water.  I was looking for an edge in the Dredge mirror, and I wanted one that wouldn't be anticipated.  At the same time I thought it could give me a little bonus game against Workshops.  Further, if in a game it appeared that a particular manabase was basic light (for instance, Trygon Tez with 2 basics - ew) I could bring it in against a blue deck as well.  Shops and Dredge decks are simply very reliant on their nonbasics, and Blue decks are just more likely to keep a hand with shaky mana against dredge if it has a hate card or two.  I also just didn't value the slots for much else... maybe more experience with the deck will give me a better idea of what problem areas need covering up, but I felt like I had some room to play/test with.

As for how it worked out, I couldn't tell you.  It loses its value on the draw, so you only bring it in on the play (except in GAT v GAT, but that's another story entirely.)  I didn't get many chances to board it in, because I won most of my game 2s on the draw.  In the few (either two or three, I can't remember) game 3s I played out, I never had encroach in my opening hand - so I really can't tell you how it did.  I'm not sure if I'd run it again or not.

As for problem one- I don't accept those kinds of answers!  There's always a solution, though sometimes it costs too much elsewhere.  A legacy-style build with careful studies and putrid imps solves this, though I'm not sure if that's ultimately correct... and they're printing new cards all the time!

Deep Analysis is better than Ancestral if you're going to rely on LED to avoid mulligans.  But I wouldn't rely on LED for that.  Lotus Petal would be better for playing A-call.  Clever idea, though.

I don't know if I like that, I wouldn't want to assume that I drew the two together - i.e. Deep Analysis is much worse in a 4 card hand than Ancestral or LED are on their own.  A free reusable discard outlet would be ideal, but gatherer searches have found nothing.  Womba's suggestion of Breakthrough was also where I was looking, but I'm not sure if that's ideal ... Brainstorm might be comparable to Ancestral, but even if it was, 2 cards helps but doesn't *solve* the problem.  ... What to do...?

I also can't imagine wanting a Lotus Petal over just running another land.  Three uses out of a Gemstone is better than one out of a Petal, and triggering Landfall is mega-large in value.

[voltron00x]

It appears our match in February has had a lasting affect on you, Mr. Brassman.  

Encroach is the most unusual choice in your list, although 3x Darkblast main is outside the norm (but is a logical extension of pushing your SB into the main, something which I advocate when it comes to Dredge).  I'm not surprised to see you played it as you mentioned it at Gen Con, although I may have underestimated how serious you were.  

I too found LED to be underwhelming when I used it, and that was with Fatestitcher.  Without Stitcher, I can't see why you'd really want it. Sam Berse and others have said Recall is very good IN DREDGE.  If you're on that train as well, I may include it in my next Dredge update.

Thanks for posting this.  I love when people push Dredge forward, there's a lot more "play" in this archetype than most people think.

[2nd_lawl]

It appears our match in February has had a lasting affect on you, Mr. Brassman.  

Encroach is the most unusual choice in your list, although 3x Darkblast main is outside the norm (but is a logical extension of pushing your SB into the main, something which I advocate when it comes to Dredge).  I'm not surprised to see you played it as you mentioned it at Gen Con, although I may have underestimated how serious you were. 

I too found LED to be underwhelming when I used it, and that was with Fatestitcher.  Without Stitcher, I can't see why you'd really want it. Sam Berse and others have said Recall is very good.  If you're on that train as well, I may include it in my next Dredge update.

Thanks for posting this.  I love when people push Dredge forward, there's a lot more "play" in this archetype than most people think.

It makes sense that recall is good: It dredges you hard to kill them when you are going off, and it digs for answers when you arent. I would imagine that LED is good vs shops though.

[honestabe]

Sam Berse and others have said Recall is very good.

Woah

[TopSecret]

Maybe you could try a singleton Thoughtseize for #1, since you can use it on yourself to discard a dredger and it can be disruption the rest of the time? Or maybe a Putrid Imp. OR TOME SCOUR The other answers that I know of have already been mentioned, although maybe I'm misunderstanding what the criteria is for #1.

[voltron00x]

Sam Berse and others have said Recall is very good.

Woah

Its hardly a standard inclusion in Dredge.  C'mon, keep up with us.  

Also Recall, UXX, is not a very good card, although people used to play it with Drains, before there was a Yawgmoth's Will.

Christ, I'm old.

[2nd_lawl]

I red on internut that ansisters recall wuz reel gud

[TheBrassMan]

Sam Berse and others have said Recall is very good.

Woah

Rofl.  I know right?

WHO KNEW???????

3x Darkblast main is outside the norm (but is a logical extension of pushing your SB into the main, something which I advocate when it comes to Dredge).  

Yeah, while there was at least one time I wanted a Thug in my yard for Ichorid (which often takes up the same slots), I'm a big fan of Darkblast.  More answers to Jailer is enough on its own, but I've also managed to do some fun things with Darkblast like:

1. Blast a Hierarch or Confidant an opponent was relying on.
2. Blast a Lodestone Golem that blocked a Bloodghast
3. Blast my own creature to get zombie tokens, particularly in response to a crypt or "remove bridges" trigger
4. Blast anything just to get Darkblast (a dredger) in the yard, particularly in situations where I can't otherwise do that (no bazaar, less than 8 cards in hand)

Maybe you could try a singleton Thoughtseize for #1, since you can use it on yourself to discard a dredger and it can be disruption the rest of the time? Or maybe a Putrid Imp. OR TOME SCOUR The other answers that I know of have already been mentioned, although maybe I'm misunderstanding what the criteria is for #1.

Basically, besides testing and 5 dollar local events, I've played dredge at two "real" tournaments.  At one of these events I lost multiple games (half of my game ones) by having to mull to something like 4 or less cards, past the threshold where draw to 8 then discard EOT is a realistic option.  I was looking for cards that made bazaar free hands keepable - LED does that by turning on dredging by turn 2, Ancestral does that by either getting you to 8 or finding a Bazaar.  LED didn't do that job well enough (3 dredgers + LED is still a loss, problem not solved), but Ancestral was flexible enough and valuable enough in game two to keep its slot.

Thoughtseize / Putrid Imp / Tomb Scour are all valid approaches to solve the problem, but they all require a land, which makes them more difficult to find than Bazaar itself, without doing as much as Ancestral does (Thoughtseize is obviously more flexible and is the most interesting of the three.)  I'll just have to play more to learn how big a drawback "needs a land" is, and how much edge "discard outlet" actually gives you in a tournament.

[Ravager Sam]

Sam Berse and others have said Recall is very good.

Woah

Haha, I know right! It's suuuch a good card - I just got me a beta one!

Anyway, it's certainly interesting to ponder the idea of no chalices, but more lands + spells.

[Troy_Costisick]

Thoughtseize / Putrid Imp / Tomb Scour are all valid approaches to solve the problem, but they all require a land, which makes them more difficult to find than Bazaar itself, without doing as much as Ancestral does (Thoughtseize is obviously more flexible and is the most interesting of the three.)  I'll just have to play more to learn how big a drawback "needs a land" is, and how much edge "discard outlet" actually gives you in a tournament.

To borrow from Legacy, what about Careful Study?  It's draw and discard.  Not as deep as A-call, but still, it does a lot of what you need.

Sam Berse and others have said Recall is very good.

Woah

Haha, I know right! It's suuuch a good card - I just got me a beta one!

Beta?  The thing was in Legends.

Peace,

-Troy

[T00L]

SB:

4 Encroach

This was obviously not the tournament for me to be in ohio for

[Bongo]

1. Don't mulligan out of game one
2. Don't lose to Wasteland
3. Don't lose to the mirror

Any questions? suggestions? potential solutions to my "problem number 1" ?

What comes to mind:

1. Crop Rotation (instead of LED)
2. Maindeck 3 Petrified Field
3. Maindeck 4 Leyline

How good was Wispmare?

[policehq]

Have you thought about playing Imperial Seal and Vampiric Tutor in place of Ancestral Recall and Lion's Eye Diamond? They're more useful for finding answers in the post-sideboard games also. 3 random cards in this deck are usually pretty bad, so Ancestral Recall is best (and only good, maybe?) when you have plenty of dredgers in the graveyard, and not when you want a Bazaar and get a Narcomoeba and Bloodghast.

[Razvan]

Have you thought about playing Imperial Seal and Vampiric Tutor in place of Ancestral Recall and Lion's Eye Diamond? They're more useful for finding answers in the post-sideboard games also. 3 random cards in this deck are usually pretty bad, so Ancestral Recall is best (and only good, maybe?) when you have plenty of dredgers in the graveyard, and not when you want a Bazaar and get a Narcomoeba and Bloodghast.

I am not Andy, but I have included those (I even tested Demonic Tutor, such a terrible idea). They are not bad. Ancestral Recall, I think, is worth including, even though sometimes only to get your hand size up and of course, win with Dredgers. I wouldn't take it out.

I put IS and VT in the sideboard, clearly, to just side them in en masse with the rest of the crap that's coming in. Overall, they were never bad, although I very rarely used them. I cannot imagine them being bad, as you pretty much *have* to cast spells, and these give you either a solution, a Bazaar, or even a Narcomoeba to dredge .

[Troy_Costisick]

Would Demonic Consultation be too risky to play if you want to increase your chances of getting Bazaar?

[zeus-online]

Would Demonic Consultation be too risky to play if you want to increase your chances of getting Bazaar?

People keep saying that...I wonder if they're just saying it because they heard it, or if they've actually played the card?

[Womba]

The problem with playing spells to find bazaar is the fact YOU CAN mulligan yourself out of game 1. It is probably best to just keep your 7 with a dredger to discard if you feel that way, especially against a blue based deck, because now your asking your deck to find two cards, a tutor and a mana producing land to find you a bazaar, in which case your still going to be using a draw step. Also, if they counter your tutor you are in a strictly worse spot than trying to mulligan looking for just one card. I am still trying to figure out when I would want to mull to a tutor and land card over just looking for a bazaar. Against shops if you are on the draw it seems really bad, especially if they drop a sphere effect, and against blue based decks if they counter you pretty much lose. The cool thing about mulliganing to a bazaar is it can not be countered, nor do sphere effects hurt it. Sure they can wasteland or strip it but by then you already have something in the yard. I mean lets be honest this is pretty much the nature of the deck, your not going to lose very often when you mull to bazaar because it is that good. That is the risk of playing the deck, if you want to play something with smooth draws and tutors go play a blue based control deck of some sort. Your running the most broken deck in the format when it hits bazaar, its not a glass cannon, its an army of glass fucking tanks. Your going to pummel the living hell out of everyone game one most of the time because thats what the deck does. That is the reward of running a deck like this though, finding bazaar game one. Game two/three is a different beast altogether and should not be taken into consideration with my argument here. It is plain and simple, if your not mulliganing for a bazaar game one I feel you are doing it wrong. Sure you might pick up a game or two with tutors and such, but that effect will be nullified by the fact when they do counter your spell to find bazaar, or drop that sphere, so essentially we are just back to square one.  

[Troy_Costisick]

Also, if they counter your tutor you are in a strictly worse spot than trying to mulligan looking for just one card, espeically if it is a shop deck.

These two scenarios can't co-exist.  Either you're going to play a deck that counters your spells or you'll be playing a shop deck.  On the play against a shop deck, a tutor makes great sense.  I do get what you're saying about losing your tutor to counterspells tho.

[Womba]

Also, if they counter your tutor you are in a strictly worse spot than trying to mulligan looking for just one card, espeically if it is a shop deck.

These two scenarios can't co-exist.  Either you're going to play a deck that counters your spells or you'll be playing a shop deck.  On the play against a shop deck, a tutor makes great sense.  I do get what you're saying about losing your tutor to counterspells tho.

Yeah I did kinda destroy that line, edited it now.

On the play against a shop deck it does seem fine. My problem with it in general though is now your are needing to win the die roll, and it needs to be a shop deck AND your looking for two cards now instead of one card. There are way to many variables in a tournament to warrant taking that kind of risk consistantly, especially if you want to actually win the tournament. Also, shop decks at best will be 30%-40% of the field, where blue decks that run counters will be around that percent or greater often. You usually can win game one against shops by just keeping the 7 and slow dredging, because a lot of times they are unable to apply pressure against you. I mean it seems like your looking for an insurence policy against which is usually an already great game one matchup.  

[policehq]

Before Bloodghast was an option, I never liked the idea of tutors because it was so rare to find the pair of cards. Now lands are a part of the game-plan, though, so I feel like land+tutor isn't as bad as it once was when you won a big tournament with manaless ichorid (@womba), and I feel certain it is better than land+Ancestral Recall.

Also, why discuss ANYTHING in dredge anymore outside of the context of games 1, 2, and 3? Discussing game 1 is nearly pointless by now.

[Womba]

Apperantly people want to discuss game 1......

However, looking at your first point I think Recall is superior to a tutor, especially games 2 and 3 against the majority of the field. The only time I think a tutor would be superior is against shops.

Looking at the tutor first, lets say they have hate piece X, and you go and tutor for anti-hate piece X. Sure, they let the tutor resolve and then counter or deal with anti-hate piece X. So now you are down two cards, one of them being an answer. You may have to use the tutor EOT most of the time now, especially with Jaces in decks now. Recall you can use during your main and get the anti-hate that turn, play it and activate bazaar that turn. Although you may not have two mana producing lands in play because I hear that may be hard to get to....

Looking at Recall, lets assume they have hate piece X, and you Recall. Now they have to choose, to counter or deal with Recall here, or deal with whatever you draw. If they counter it then essentially you traded a non anti-hate card for a counter, which in the grand scheme of things helps. Breaking down the actual draw gives you a ton of decisions now. For one you can now draw three random cards and you have the chance to hit multiples of anti-hate piece X, which would help you get around counters. Also, you could hit a therapy which would help you deal with potential responses and future hate pieces. You will also get extra cards you can pitch away when you activate a bazaar if more digging is needed. If it is assumingly a pithing needle, you could use one if not all of the draw three to just dredge. Recall can give you a little chance of allowing you to outplay your opponent and forcing them to make a choice regarding your Recall. You can use it to respond to a lot of your opponent's plays and it gives you the cards right away; it is also something that they have to think about while they are trying to deploy their own gameplan.

It just seems to me Recall gives you more flexability and can help push you through to a FKZ or dread return answer/kill before your opponent can win. I think it will also allow you to have more broken draws game 1. A tutor can get you to another bazaar but that is still usually one draw step that is essentially wasted getting the bazaar, where a recall could just draw you a bazaar if not multiples   and use one of the draws to dredge. A tutor is better against shops and if you expect a lot of them go for it, but for a majority of metas I feel Recall would be the way to go.

[policehq]

I should clarify that I think tutors are better than Ancestral Recall for the purpose of Andy's #1 concern when building the deck.

Then I should further clarify that I agree with you that the mulligan issue should just be accepted and left alone.

[TheBrassMan]

Let me clarify.

I completely agree than any card that costs mana is a poor solution on its own.  Adding a bunch of lands and a bunch of spells would do it, but probably at too steep a cost.  I do not think that Ancestral solves this problem, though I do think that it improves the deck. 

Also, why discuss ANYTHING in dredge anymore outside of the context of games 1, 2, and 3? Discussing game 1 is nearly pointless by now.

The discussion of any deck should be within the context of a full match - Dredge is in no way alone in this.  However, simply writing off game one and approaching a match with a "mulligans happen" attitude is an oversimplification, and sells yourself and the deck short.

[policehq]

Let me clarify.

I completely agree than any card that costs mana is a poor solution on its own.  Adding a bunch of lands and a bunch of spells would do it, but probably at too steep a cost.  I do not think that Ancestral solves this problem, though I do think that it improves the deck. 

Also, why discuss ANYTHING in dredge anymore outside of the context of games 1, 2, and 3? Discussing game 1 is nearly pointless by now.

The discussion of any deck should be within the context of a full match - Dredge is in no way alone in this.  However, simply writing off game one and approaching a match with a "mulligans happen" attitude is an oversimplification, and sells yourself and the deck short.

In that case, perhaps a good start would be to drop Lion's Eye Diamond for Vampiric Tutor.

Did you like 3 maindeck Nature's Claim and 3 maindeck Leyline of the Void? Playing Unmask between your maindeck and sideboard would also likely help you discard Dredgers in terrible scenarios where such a thing is needed.

[Ravager Sam]

G3 on the play against shops: Ancestral Recall + Appropriate land = Game Over (assuming you have a dredger to discard...and multiples to sure it up while you are at it).

You can win so many games against shops without using either Bazaar or your graveyard; throughout my reports I've cited games where I won with A. Recall, won without Bazaar, won without dredging, and won by wiping their board for the low cost of 2 mana. Keeping a 7 card hand with a dredger or 2 (especially with some mana/anti-hate) isn't a terrible idea game 2 against shops - you don't have chalices and a turn 1 needle can ruin your day.

[voltron00x]

G3 on the play against shops: Ancestral Recall + Appropriate land = Game Over (assuming you have a dredger to discard...and multiples to sure it up while you are at it).

You can win so many games against shops without using either Bazaar or your graveyard; throughout my reports I've cited games where I won with A. Recall, won without Bazaar, won without dredging, and won by wiping their board for the low cost of 2 mana. Keeping a 7 card hand with a dredger or 2 (especially with some mana/anti-hate) isn't a terrible idea game 2 against shops - you don't have chalices and a turn 1 needle can ruin your day.

The part about winning w/out Bazaar and/or Dredging is the most impressive part of how you play Dredge, Sam.

Also, I agree with Brassman re: game one.  It IS relevant and the fact that no one wants to test it, ever, is frustrating.  That tournament where I played Dredge 5 times with Oath with Mana Drain, I won 2 / 5 game 1s.

[policehq]

G3 on the play against shops: Ancestral Recall + Appropriate land = Game Over (assuming you have a dredger to discard...and multiples to sure it up while you are at it).

You can win so many games against shops without using either Bazaar or your graveyard; throughout my reports I've cited games where I won with A. Recall, won without Bazaar, won without dredging, and won by wiping their board for the low cost of 2 mana. Keeping a 7 card hand with a dredger or 2 (especially with some mana/anti-hate) isn't a terrible idea game 2 against shops - you don't have chalices and a turn 1 needle can ruin your day.

Saying that, do you agree with the number of Golgari Thugs in Andy's list?