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Author Topic: G/W for 2010  (Read 34898 times)
madmanmike25
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« on: August 31, 2010, 10:34:09 am »

This seems like the most logical place to post this list since other G/W variants are here.  If the absence of Null Rod changes the nature of this deck so drastically that this should go in the Creative or Miscellaneous section please move it there with my apologies.

I thought it was time to start a new G/W thread rather than necro the old one.  There are obvious similarities and subtle changes.  So far this list is testing fair enough for what it is, and what it can do.  For some reason I havenít been able to get much testing against Ichorid/Dredge, hopefully that will change soon.  Maybe others who have played similar decks can make suggestions regarding that matchup.  On to the decklist:

G/W beats

Creatures: 23
4 Gaddock Teeg
4 Qasali Pridemage
4 Aven Mindcensor
4 True Believer
4 Noble Hierarch
3 Kataki

Spells: 12
3  Swords to Plowshares
3 Natures Claim
2 Sylvan Library
2 Mirris Guile
2 Umezawas Jitte

Mana Sources: 25
4 Windswept Heath
4 Savannah
2 Arid Mesa
2 Wooded Foothills
3 Horizon Canopy
2 Forest
2 Plains
1 Strip Mine
2  Moxen
1 Sol Ring
1 Black Lotus
1 Lotus Petal

SB:
3 Seal of Cleansing/Serenity/Null Rod
4 Relic of Progenitals
3 Samurai of Pale Curtain
3 Jotun Grunt
1 Ray of Revelation
1 Natures Claim

Now we can talk about why I chose to omit some cards you might have been looking for. 

I donít really like ESG in this deck.  The deck has enough 2/2ís and one that is vanilla and cost 3 mana doesnít make the cut in my book.  If it provided more than one color of mana, or maybe I was playing R/G I would change my mind.

Wasteland was taken out because the deck really needs on-color mana.  It didnít bother Aven too much, but I had difficulties sometimes casting Teeg/Qasali/TB.  Maybe I can add a pair back in though.

Null Rod was also hit or miss for me.  Since itís not included here, you can probably  figure out which occurrence happened more frequently.  Iím sure this will be a point of high contention so let me say this:  If in my testing  I find myself wanting, no, NEEDING Rod I will take out the Jitteís and 2 other cards asap.  I truly wish they would make a 'Magus of the Rod' despite the innuendo...

I agree with the opinion that Goyf is just too vanilla.  Running cards like STP and Claim make the deck less about trying to Ďraceí with aggro and more about control.

I should probably explain some maindeck inclusions you might find questionable.

Noble Hierarch is FAR better than I expected.  I will admit that at first I scoffed when any deck played this and passed the turn.  No more.  Exalted is great and if Qasali is in play, your Aven can really swing for some damage.  Exalted is also nice vs. creatures since you can just attack with one Ďbigí creature and leave your others as blockers if needed.  Nobles really help in the Shop matchups to keep you casting under Spheres.  I should also note that when I cast a Noble, people think Iím running blue and FoW.

Mirris Guile and Library are split because Iím still doing testing to find out which I like better.   Library is good because not too many decks these days take the aggro approach,  meaning that losing 4-8 life for extra cards can be a common occurrence.  Note that fetchlands work with either  to help improve card quality.

Iím really liking True Believer.  Maybe 4 is too many, but it comes in pretty handy.  Jace canít fateseal you or become an alt-wincon.  In a deck with so many creatures, Jace shouldnít last long enough for him to keep bouncing TB.  Did I mention that TB stops a creature decks biggest nemesis, Oath of Druids?

4 Gaddocks could go down to 3 in theory, itís just that he almost always pulls a FoW paving the way for the second Teeg.  He also stops Jace, Smokestack, and Chalice.

Are you really going to question maindeck Kataki with so many Shops around?

Jitte is solid.  It has control elements and offers a faster clock.  23 creatures and 2 Equipment should never be an issue.  Please test it before you knock it.  I did.  If you are wondering, Kataki and Jitte are not mutually exclusive cards.

You can call this a fish-type deck, I donít really care.  The premise of this deck is to keep playing creatures that disrupt your opponent and use cheap efficient spells to maintain board control.

Thanks for reading,
Mike

P.S. Has anyone had any luck with Ethersworn Canonist?
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Stormanimagus
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« Reply #1 on: August 31, 2010, 11:03:13 am »


2 Sylvan Library
2 Mirris Guile


Guile and Library Suck big time and certainly don't belong in a deck like this with so few shuffle effects. So I'd say, for starters:

-2 Mirri's Guile
-2 Sylvan Library

+4 Leyline Of Sanctity

Not including Leyline of Sanctity somewhere in the MD or SB is wrong because the card is such a house in the match-ups where you need it to be (namely TPS and Oath).

I mean, the problem with Hate-bears and Fish in General is really MUD atm so I might also try to fit in the 4th MD Claim and the 4th MD STP (what good it'll do you). The problem is that 1-for-1's are not good enough in that match-up because their density is sooo high that you can't out-draw them off the top very often. Simply put, they (MUD) do what you are trying to do, but they do it sooo much better that the majority of competent MUD pilots will be nigh unbeatable vs. you. That is a big, gaping weakness for this deck IMHO.

-Storm
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madmanmike25
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« Reply #2 on: August 31, 2010, 11:38:35 am »

Thanks for the input.  Could I be a bother and ask if you could modify your post since there really isn't any need to copy the entire post since you are addressing a few points?  It really just takes up too much space.  I promise I'm not trying to be a nuissance, it's just that since you are the second poster it's easy for all to see what you are referencing.  I truly hope my request doesn't impact your participation.

I disagree with you on Library.  It isn't dependent on shuffle effects.  I don't think 2 mana is a bad investment since this can actually draw you cards.  Without Lodestones in play, an opponents life total isn't so relevent to the Shop player.  Maybe the Guiles can go if needed for +1 STP and +1 Claim.  I'll work on that.

If Leyline could beat it would go in.  TB takes its place.  Sb is another matter and they may work their way in.

STP has done me plenty of good against MUD btw.  2 mana is not so bad to exile a Lodestone.  Nobles help a lot.  When you say they have a high threat density, I agree.  The problem is you suggest taking out the draw (Library) which actually hurts this matchup.  One-for-one is fine vs. MUD when you get to see 3 cards a turn and potentially get to draw 1-2 additional cards to keep you ahead.  They draw 1 card a turn.  Why would I wish to give up this advantage?

I think you completely underestimate the MUD matchup.  Kataki, Claim, STP, Qasali, Teeg, and even Noble shine here.  I have played enough games vs. Shop and I can honestly say your claim of "nigh unbeatable" is weak at best.  I have played Shops for years and years, and I can tell you this matchup is no cake walk.  Thorn of Amethyst is pretty subpar vs. this many creatures.  Pay attention to the permanent count as well.  6 Instants and 54 permanents (52 taking Lotus and Petal into account) really helps.

The instants are great during your upkeep to respond to Tangle Wire.

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« Reply #3 on: August 31, 2010, 04:31:17 pm »

As long as you're not playing rod, library/guile are inferior to skullclamp. Put it on a guy to trade with other fish or make it unprofitable to remove your hate-bears. I find the card strong in aggro and control match-ups and usually play 3 of them. Though this deck would most often clamp preemptively, your hierarchs can simply be fed to it if you draw them a bit late.

If there are goyfs around, you got a huge incentive to play jotun grunt main. It has splash effect versus graveyard strategies and is good with clamp.

TB and Teeg are 3-ofs at best. In some match-ups, they are close to dead.

I am so far not at all impressed with the mindcensor. It just costs too much for what it does (which in most cases is being a 2 power flier). Maybe in a controlling shell with faeries and counters. I dunno.

Try to work in a set of wastelands. Up the land count if necessary. If you have to play it turn one, you do it happily and if not it comes down turn three-ish, randomely messing up the game-plan of almost any opponent.

I doubt you need multiple basics. Karakas is an easy fit and flagstones of trokair has some merit if you play against stax.
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BruiZar
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« Reply #4 on: August 31, 2010, 05:13:43 pm »

Skullclamp on Qasali Pridemage is pretty good
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« Reply #5 on: September 01, 2010, 09:12:58 am »

I'd suggest this mana base, including the 4 Wastelands:

4 Windswept Heath
1 Arid Mesa
1 Wooded Foothills

4 Savannah
3 Horizon Canopy
1 Forest
1 Plains
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
2  Moxen
1 Sol Ring
1 Black Lotus
1 Lotus Petal

With it you have access to both basic lands, and if you are afraid of opposing Wastes, lower the Savannah count (-2) and add both basic lands. This way, you reduce the impact of a card I'd add fore sure: Root Maze.

I would probably try to sneak some Root Maze, maybe 3 of them, going -1 Gaddock Teeg , -1 True Believer, -2 Mirri's Guile, +3 Root Maze, +1 Sylvan Library

Root Maze is awesome vs opponent fetchlands, Moxes, and any artifacts that Shop's Deck can bring in. It would give some time to sneak in some points of damage againts most decks
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« Reply #6 on: September 01, 2010, 09:28:07 am »

I agree with you on the Noble Hierarch, I also include it in my GW incarnations.

Some more creatures to consider:
Knight of the Reliquary - need to play Strip/Waste of course. This one gets really huge and has a lot of applications.
Vexing Shusher - Great vs Chalice
Elvish Spirit Guide - you will find yourself wanting two mana on your first turn. 1st turn Gaddock/Rod(if you play it)/Quasali etc is huge
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« Reply #7 on: September 01, 2010, 10:02:12 am »

Hey madmanmike25, I don't know if it's funny or plain weird but independently we always seem to be working on the same sort of decks. Years ago it was Rod MUD and now rodless Fish (or whatever you can call it).

Anyway, in the last weeks I've been playing UG and UGW fish lists without Rods and Wastes. I dropped Rods and Wastes to add the artifact mana wich in turn facilitated the easier casting if bigger fish like Trygon Predator, Selkie, Sower of Temptation (has been very nice) and even Mana Drain. When I dropped Rod I immediately looked at Jitte. Although this is Vintage Jitte is very good in Rodless aggro decks: it speeds the clock and it kills blockers, Welders and Confidants. By the way Jitte on Selkie (and Hierarchs on the table) is insane.

I know this thread is about GW instead of UG or UGW but I just wanted to say I get your reasoning for dropping Rods and Wastes and the addition of Jittes. I'm not going to spam your thread with my list(s). Just pm me if you're interested. Until now the concept has tested pretty well. I also toyed with GW but the problem is that the off-color moxen offer nothing to the deck (a lot of your cards need GW mana). If I would play pure GW I would still play Rod I think. Without the need of extra artifact mana Rod seems too good to pass up.

Concerning the deck: I agree Sylvan Library and Guile seem pretty terrible. What about Selkie or Ohran Viper? The last one even kills Inkwell in a pinch. Replacing them with one more each of Plow and Claim sounds good too. Those cards are pretty good against most of the format at the moment. Artifacts and Confidants are everywhere.

Noble Hierach has tested very well for me too. Opponents often underestimate this card. It speeds you up (facilitating Mana Drain in my deck) while you play extra threats an attack with Exalted critters. It strenghtens your manabase against Shops and the Exalted ability can add up.

Another card wich has been floating in and out of my list is Pithing Needle. I almost always play this card in my sideboards and it gets sided in very often. It could be played maindeck in a lot of decks I think, especially when you drop Rod. It tackles a lot of relevant cards (Time Vault, Jace, Welder, Bazaar, Wastes, ... ).

I'm going to follow this thread with great interest.
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« Reply #8 on: September 01, 2010, 01:29:28 pm »

I don't post much but I do play GW every Monday night against some of New Englands best at Scholar's.  I run Null Rod and always want it in play on turn one, even before Teeg.  Without ESG's in the deck you pretty much give away your first turn or possibly play a Heirarch.  You mentioned this deck is more about control and I agree.  Turn one you need to drop a disruption piece, Rod, Teeg, Pridemage.  I'd strongly suggest wasteland as it helps with control as well as gives you a stronger chance against your worst matchup: dredge.

-Nick
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« Reply #9 on: September 01, 2010, 01:39:23 pm »

Hey Nick, would you mind to share your most recent GW list? Some of your lists got posted here in the past and I thought they always contained some interesting and creative choices (like Heartwood Storyteller) in contrast to the more conservative lists.
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« Reply #10 on: September 01, 2010, 02:38:02 pm »

Very nice list, madmanmike25 Very Happy!
I'm building something similar and I arrived to the same conclusions than yours:
- Sylvan Library is very good in the deck
- The deck needs colored mana so Wasteland must be forgotten
- Null Rod is not necessary, Gaddog Teeg, Believer and Mindcensor are enough to create big problems to Control and Combo decks.

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madmanmike25
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« Reply #11 on: September 01, 2010, 03:08:17 pm »

Lot's of good input here.

I'm starting to think that most people who claim Library is bad (or worse) haven't actually played with it.  Some matchups I will gladly lose 8 life to get the 2 extra cards.  For a one time 2 mana investment it really helps if the game goes on a bit.  Don't forget Jitte can gain life as well.  Don't misinterpret that as me saying use Jitte for life gain, just play smart and if drawing extra cards is worth some Jitte counters then do it.

Mirris Guile was included because it's a one drop.  It has it's uses but it can be easy to remove it.  Skullclamp is a card I will test, but will most likely put the 4th Claim and STP in.  Root Maze is another 1 drop, but what a horrible topdeck...

I like the suggestion of Ohran Viper.  Running that card would lead me to put ESG's in the deck, though.  I really don't think thats still a powerful enough play to warrant 1 shot, 1 color only mana.

Aven Mindcensor's flying ability with Exalted keeps him as a 4-of maindeck.  Responding to fetchlands/tutors/tinker with Aven is still pretty damn good.

If I decide to go down 1 Teeg and 1 TB, 2 Jotuns seem like a nice addition.  But BOTH those cards are great in the Oath matchup, so I'm not sure Grunt will be better.

I think I'll test cutting 2 Canopy's for a pair of Wastelands and see if I want more or less.


@Wolf  Sure pm me the list.  I'm really surprised you haven't been having a field day with MUD with the printing of Lodestone Golem.  I remember when you and I were the only ones who seemed interested in MUD back then.  Now it seems everyone is an expert Wink
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« Reply #12 on: September 01, 2010, 08:07:06 pm »

I personally run a Blue/Green fish deck myself, and its the same "concept" as yours, using trygon over Pridemages, and Counters/Bounce over the STP's and Critters like Mindcensor, but just like you I do not run Null Rod maindeck.  In my personally testing of a build like this, I have always went 1 Sword of Fire/Ice and 1 Jitte.

Yes SoFi costs 1 more than jitte, but a first turn Hierarch 2nd turn Sofi is just as good if not better under certain situations than Jitte.

Sofi gets thru tinker bots Sphinx and Inkwell.  Also lets your block Inkwell and take no damage (night be wrong here, but pretty sure since the critter is pro blue all damage is reduced to 0, and no trample goes over?)

It does an Extra 4 damage (2 from buff, 2 from fire), which is the same as a jitte with 2 counter on it already.  

Also it has the amazing ability of turning your critter into a draw engine, and since you don't play story teller or Selkie, this seems like it would be important to me.  IMO all decks should have some kind of draw engine.

Sylvan is good, but not as good as sylvan and Sofi.

Also, a hand with 2 jitte is bad since they are legendary, drawing either a Sofi or jitte is better than a dead card in hand

And last thing, I would consider Abolish in the sideboard for Mud since you run 6 plains.  It gets around sphere by being "free" and also gets around a chalice for 1 or 2, which if both hit play would be GG against you. 

Otherwise very nice deck. Hope my 2 cents helps.
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« Reply #13 on: September 01, 2010, 10:07:43 pm »

Sofi gets thru tinker bots Sphinx and Inkwell.  Also lets your block Inkwell and take no damage (night be wrong here, but pretty sure since the critter is pro blue all damage is reduced to 0, and no trample goes over?)

Trample will still go over.  Trample has you assign 'lethal' damage, based upon toughness, even if such damage will not inevitable be lethal.

This is a moot point, Inkwell has Islandwalk though, as you are playing U/G.
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« Reply #14 on: September 02, 2010, 09:23:43 pm »

If you're going to run Kataki, then it makes sense to me to drop the sylvan and mirri's guile to add main-deck serenity.  I also think skullclamp is worth testing, as it can help you to make terrific trades with opposing golems (or especially juggernaut).  I understand where you're coming from on hierarch, but there are more disruptive maindeck options like grunt, shusher, and canonist.  Since I just killed your mana-curve, I suppose ESG needs to come back in.
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« Reply #15 on: September 03, 2010, 08:13:03 am »


2 Sylvan Library
2 Mirris Guile


Guile and Library Suck big time and certainly don't belong in a deck like this with so few shuffle effects. So I'd say, for starters:

-2 Mirri's Guile
-2 Sylvan Library

+4 Leyline Of Sanctity

Not including Leyline of Sanctity somewhere in the MD or SB is wrong because the card is such a house in the match-ups where you need it to be (namely TPS and Oath).

I mean, the problem with Hate-bears and Fish in General is really MUD atm so I might also try to fit in the 4th MD Claim and the 4th MD STP (what good it'll do you). The problem is that 1-for-1's are not good enough in that match-up because their density is sooo high that you can't out-draw them off the top very often. Simply put, they (MUD) do what you are trying to do, but they do it sooo much better that the majority of competent MUD pilots will be nigh unbeatable vs. you. That is a big, gaping weakness for this deck IMHO.

-Storm

About the workshop match up. I don't think the initial list is that weak as you think it is. Qasali/Kataki/Claim/Teeg/Noble are all pretty solid for game 1.
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« Reply #16 on: September 03, 2010, 08:43:36 am »

Creature base is one of the most critical criteria when you are opting success with GWx

Quote
4  Aven Mindcensor
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
3 Gaddock Teeg
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Qasali Pridemage   
4 Tarmogoyf   
3 Xantid Swarm

I used this a while ago. And i didn't use this just for fun or to be funky. The logic behind this base is hidden in the fact that you do want null rod. I was using vial lists but there is no walking null rod that does the job done like null rod itself does it. You goal is board control and disruption, you need 4x null rod. However there is a walking vial, in fact there are several. Noble hierarch for example gives you the acceleration that vial would give but spread over the turns and not after turn 2. Xantid Swarm is your walking mana drain (or vial). Turn 1 Xantid Swarm is better against drain that turn 1 vial. Also you have another 'flying' creature that can do what Aven does with exalted in stalemate situations. To summarize, I cut vial and replaced it with Noble and Swarm. Those 2 creatures also gave me other interesting advantages. By cutting vial I was able to run the best card, Null Rod.

The core idea is to form your creature base accordingly. That is why I like that you are trying out Kataki to get better fighting chances in the workshop match. I also like that you recognize the fact that you need some draw/draw manipulation. But you also have to understand that drawing more cards does not help this kind of fish decks. What you need is the correct creature at the right time to win the game by closing their roads to victory. This can be done by the way. The power of tutoring is the way to go in the mid game. Survival of the fittest is your 'draw' and 'recycle' engine. What you are looking for is most likely not in the top 3 of your deck anyway. By simply adding 1 squee, or if you want you can try the forest 1/1 land and life from the loam. With the Horizon canopy this would be a pretty nice way to refill your hand mid game. (You don't want early draw anyway)

For now these are my 2 cents, I didn't suggest a creature base but I took one of my old ones to illustrate the importance of tuning it. I also advised to use survival and things like loam to give you a mid game engine when things are getting tight.
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« Reply #17 on: September 03, 2010, 11:14:45 am »


2 Sylvan Library
2 Mirris Guile


Guile and Library Suck big time and certainly don't belong in a deck like this with so few shuffle effects. So I'd say, for starters:

-2 Mirri's Guile
-2 Sylvan Library

+4 Leyline Of Sanctity

Not including Leyline of Sanctity somewhere in the MD or SB is wrong because the card is such a house in the match-ups where you need it to be (namely TPS and Oath).

I mean, the problem with Hate-bears and Fish in General is really MUD atm so I might also try to fit in the 4th MD Claim and the 4th MD STP (what good it'll do you). The problem is that 1-for-1's are not good enough in that match-up because their density is sooo high that you can't out-draw them off the top very often. Simply put, they (MUD) do what you are trying to do, but they do it sooo much better that the majority of competent MUD pilots will be nigh unbeatable vs. you. That is a big, gaping weakness for this deck IMHO.

-Storm

About the workshop match up. I don't think the initial list is that weak as you think it is. Qasali/Kataki/Claim/Teeg/Noble are all pretty solid for game 1.

I'm not sure that you understand conceptually why this deck is bad against Shops. You fundamentally run a strategy that doesn't trump theirs. You could be running ANY hate-bear and still not be able to keep up because:

1). You don't run moxen nor would you want to (besides on color ones)
2). Your stuff costs 2 so any sphere effect (save thorn) OR WIRE pretty much = GG if it is on turn 1 or 2 (depending on play vs. draw)
3). They have inevitability on their side and you have 2/2 hate bears.

Trust me. Pridemage is hard to make good as a 1-for-1, and that is IF you can cast it. Kataki is pretty awful when your opponent runs Ancient Tomb AND City of Traitors. Noble is OK, but it is affected by Golem and that epically sucks. Claim is a 1-for-1 that grants time to the MUD player so it is actually pretty lousy too. Your fundamental problem is that you are playing much the same game as MUD except that MUD is doing it more efficiently. You are trying to play out lock pieces on your turn every turn to slowly win the game. So is MUD. The difference is that they have a 5/3 sphere to finish the deal. You do not. If you want to play a fish-esque deck that actually has a chance against MUD I'd try Dark Times (which still has a terrible MUD match-up btw) because it can at least steal some games with a 20/20. GW is just not gonna cut it with Golems floating around.

@Guli- I realize this is your pet deck, but sometimes you have to give it a rest and wait for new printings to shake things up. That's what I'm doing with Noble Fish. Just putting it on the shelf. . . for now. I suggest you do the same with this deck.

-Storm
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« Reply #18 on: September 03, 2010, 02:27:36 pm »

Quote
Kataki is pretty awful when your opponent runs Ancient Tomb

If your opponent is using Ancient Tomb to pay upkeeps, then Kataki is hitting as hard as Goyf.
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« Reply #19 on: September 03, 2010, 03:21:30 pm »

Quote
Kataki is pretty awful when your opponent runs Ancient Tomb
If your opponent is using Ancient Tomb to pay upkeeps, then Kataki is hitting as hard as Goyf.
Not if he's paying for Golem.
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« Reply #20 on: September 03, 2010, 03:27:26 pm »

Mike, I like that you've gotten away from Null Rod.  Null Rod is great against control & storm combo, but it's dead in the mirror, usually awful v. Shops, pointless v. Dredge, bad v. Dark Times, bad. v. Goblins, and not fantastic v. Oath, etc.  It's a glorified sideboard card that goes into maindecks only because it happens to be potent against the revered Drain pillar.  Hit or Miss, and more often miss, as you point out in your original post.  Sometimes running Rod is the right call but Storm isn't as popular now and Drain runs Trygons making them able to both destroy the Rod and win in ways that have nothing to do with Vault/Key.  

Sylvan Library is underrated and quite good, but I think Heartwood Storyteller would be stronger.  You can swap the Sylvans, Guiles, and TB's for 4 Leyline of Sanctity and 4 Heartwood Storyteller, and it would keep the same creature count and the same amount of TB effects, but both faster.  

Stoneforge Mystic has a lot of potential right now in Fish w/o Null Rods.  It tutors for SoFI, Skullclamp, and Jitte and can function as a card advantage backbone.  I've been trying to think of a way for Mystic->Basilisk Collar to work as an anti-Tinker target, but haven't been able to make it gel.  Mystic is a good card to keep in mind when reviewing all future sets as well.  

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« Reply #21 on: September 03, 2010, 04:07:53 pm »

Another HUUUUGE problem with this deck being G/W right now is that it lacks the more tech (better) answers to MUD that would actually make that a solid match-up. Personally, I'd go a more Zoo route and add Red for Lightning Bolt. Once I do that I think the deck becomes almost more like G/R/w instead of G/W/r. Here is a list of cards I'd run in such a deck (no numbers attached because I'm too lazy to make a decklist right at this moment).

Lightning Bolt
Wild Nacatl (trades with Golem)
Artifact Mutation (Tech against Stax decks)
Qasali Pride-mage
Nature's Claim (Perhaps)
Swords To Plowshares
Ethersworn Canonist
Gaddock Teeg
Leyline Of Sanctity (SB)
Serenity (SB)
Shattering Spree
Hidden Guerrillas (perhaps SB)

Aether Vial
Umezawa's Jitte

Those are just some of the options. I kinda wish there was another burn spell worth running besides Bolt, but I'm not sure there is.

Running 3 colors also gives you access to another Mox, and that can not be understated vs. MUD. Especially when all 3 moxen you run could potentially run out a 1 CMC removal Spell (Bolt, Claim, STP) UNDER Golem.

-aside- I don't think Nature's Claim is a great answer to MUD and I especially believe this to be true for a beatdown deck. You really cannot afford to give them extra turns by gaining them life because in that match-up it is sort of a race since you are both living off the top deck (no draw engine). If you are trying to race MUD and you give them extra turns with Claim I think you are forgetting your role, which is pretty much always Beatdown -end aside-

-Storm
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BruiZar
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« Reply #22 on: September 03, 2010, 04:42:02 pm »

id go for pridemage and hammer mage.
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Guli
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« Reply #23 on: September 03, 2010, 06:06:17 pm »

@Storm

I haven't posted a deck for ages. So I fail to see why you are referring to 'my deck' when presenting arguments. That doesn't mean your comments are pointless. I know playing workshop can be very frustrating and hard especially when you are on the draw. Vial was most of the times that saved me LOL. If I would reconstruct my so called 'pet' deck (I don't really like to use that terminology but OK) I would not use my old versions but I start from scratch. That WAS my point by the way. You can not use the same creature base for years. None of the creatures are auto includes. But I do believe that at all times you can give this GW archetype a fighting chance by using the correct configuration.

In that respect I am toying around with Leyline of Anticipation. I also want to quickly point out that even though green and white are the 'preferred' colors the archetype I opted for years was not color bound. At any time you can add or remove a color and adjust the mana base. This is much easier nowadays anyway. I also want to note that I disagree on your observation that MUD has the same game plan as my 'pet decks' had. MUD disrupts and wants to deny spells by mostly mana denial while beating the life total to zero. I never went for a mana denial strategy, for those who remember my goal was to directly deny key spells or disrupt the synergy between their spells with things like canonist and aven which was also effectively reducing the power of their 'power', hence denying their spells ultimately. I was using vial to its maximum effect. Not many people on this board liked the approach but after a while I saw more decks pop up and also articles. Sure they still had null rod in it, some vial, but the idea was gaddock teeg. The walking force of will, direct spell denial.

To further draw my point, If I would construct this idea of mine and if I consider MUD as a threat I would try to dismantle it the same way as before. You would not get the chance to play down all your lock pieces and if you do I would have an answer standing by. Don't forget that the experience of the pilot will count heavily when play testing. I want to elaborate this further, cause you will most likely ask anyway. I am going to take past examples again because to shed light on the subject. At the time I designed this 'Mr. Gaddock' theme with 'spell denial' instead of 'mana denial' a lot of mana drain decks were out there. Combo was also pretty active. Workshop and dredge were also present but it was a struggle. So my creature base was designed to beat control and combo while being decent in the other match ups. I used canonist, aven, teeg, meddling mage and sylvan safekeeper to lock down the board. Control and combo don't wasteland your lands so I saw my lands as a resource mid game to stop the 'answers' and this was simply BOUNCE or MASS REMOVAL. Bounce was countered by Safekeeper (acting as a walking counterspell) and mass removal by teeg or meddling mage. You do want ways to keep your stuff alive and this was the key to victory. To fill in the gabs, and this was the mirror and Tinker, I used Waterfront bouncer and Gilded drake OR experimented with Welder/Skullclamp/Canonist to swarm them late game. I also remember using Welder/Shaman to destroy workshop and make them cry. Then they printed Tinker targets with shroud and I had to adjust my answers. It always comes down to using the correct base. It also comes down to testing a lot and finding out all kinds of synergy that one could not have seen on beforehand.

The suggestions Storm is making are solid. Seems to me thought that he is a bit scared of MUD Wink The match up against workshop was not always THAT bad to be honest. At least not with my designs. Sure it was unfair sometimes with turn 1 trini or whatever but that didn't happen all the time.
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« Reply #24 on: September 04, 2010, 12:49:38 am »

Another HUUUUGE problem with this deck being G/W right now is that it lacks the more tech (better) answers to MUD that would actually make that a solid match-up. Personally, I'd go a more Zoo route and add Red for Lightning Bolt. Once I do that I think the deck becomes almost more like G/R/w instead of G/W/r. Here is a list of cards I'd run in such a deck (no numbers attached because I'm too lazy to make a decklist right at this moment).

Lightning Bolt
Wild Nacatl (trades with Golem)
Artifact Mutation (Tech against Stax decks)
Qasali Pride-mage
Nature's Claim (Perhaps)
Swords To Plowshares
Ethersworn Canonist
Gaddock Teeg
Leyline Of Sanctity (SB)
Serenity (SB)
Shattering Spree
Hidden Guerrillas (perhaps SB)

Aether Vial
Umezawa's Jitte

Those are just some of the options. I kinda wish there was another burn spell worth running besides Bolt, but I'm not sure there is.

Running 3 colors also gives you access to another Mox, and that can not be understated vs. MUD. Especially when all 3 moxen you run could potentially run out a 1 CMC removal Spell (Bolt, Claim, STP) UNDER Golem.

-aside- I don't think Nature's Claim is a great answer to MUD and I especially believe this to be true for a beatdown deck. You really cannot afford to give them extra turns by gaining them life because in that match-up it is sort of a race since you are both living off the top deck (no draw engine). If you are trying to race MUD and you give them extra turns with Claim I think you are forgetting your role, which is pretty much always Beatdown -end aside-

-Storm

In many threads, you post that one-for-one trades are not good in the MUD match-up, yet [I assume without any testing] you suggest an overhaul of the mana-base and indeed deck itself for more sorcery-speed, one-for-one trades: Wild Nacatl, Swords to Plowshares, Lightning Bolt... You may be right, but I wanted to point out the inconsistency.
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Guli
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« Reply #25 on: September 04, 2010, 03:57:39 am »

Mike, I like that you've gotten away from Null Rod.  Null Rod is great against control & storm combo, but it's dead in the mirror, usually awful v. Shops, pointless v. Dredge, bad v. Dark Times, bad. v. Goblins, and not fantastic v. Oath, etc.  It's a glorified sideboard card that goes into maindecks only because it happens to be potent against the revered Drain pillar.  Hit or Miss, and more often miss, as you point out in your original post.  Sometimes running Rod is the right call but Storm isn't as popular now and Drain runs Trygons making them able to both destroy the Rod and win in ways that have nothing to do with Vault/Key.  

I don't see why Null rod would be awful v. Shops Brian. Here is a list suggested in another thread and their are actually 24 cards that would be affected by Null Rod.

Quote
// Lands
    4  Mishra's Workshop
    3 [JGC] Mishra's Factory
    4  Ancient Tomb
    1 [V09] Strip Mine
    4 [MPR] Wasteland
    1  Tolarian Academy

// Creatures
    4  Metalworker
    4  Lodestone Golem
    4  Triskelion

// Spells
    4  Chalice of the Void
    4  Sphere of Resistance
    4  Thorn of Amethyst
    4  Tangle Wire
    4  Sword of Fire and Ice
    1  Trinisphere
    1  Memory Jar
    1  Staff of Domination
    1  Mox Emerald
    1  Black Lotus
    1 [JGC] Sol Ring
    1  Mox Jet
    1  Mox Pearl
    1  Mox Ruby
    1  Mox Sapphire
    1 Mana Crypt
    1  Mana Vault

// Sideboard
SB: 4  Leyline of the Void
SB: 4  Duplicant
SB: 4  Crucible of Worlds
SB: 3  Staff of Domination

Null Rod is what is going to keep you alive against Sofi and Trini .... My first attempt to outplay this kind of list would be Null Rod and muscle power to put between you and that 'oh so feared' 5/3. Nacatl Savage would be fine in this regard (I am not suggesting it, just trying to illustrate something) and it would hang in there on its own and give you some breathing room.
« Last Edit: September 04, 2010, 04:08:02 am by Guli » Logged

RecklessEmbermage
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« Reply #26 on: September 04, 2010, 04:09:11 am »

Another HUUUUGE problem with this deck being G/W right now is that it lacks the more tech (better) answers to MUD that would actually make that a solid match-up. Personally, I'd go a more Zoo route and add Red for Lightning Bolt. Once I do that I think the deck becomes almost more like G/R/w instead of G/W/r. Here is a list of cards I'd run in such a deck (no numbers attached because I'm too lazy to make a decklist right at this moment).

Lightning Bolt
Wild Nacatl (trades with Golem)
Artifact Mutation (Tech against Stax decks)
Qasali Pride-mage
Nature's Claim (Perhaps)
Swords To Plowshares
Ethersworn Canonist
Gaddock Teeg
Leyline Of Sanctity (SB)
Serenity (SB)
Shattering Spree
Hidden Guerrillas (perhaps SB)

Aether Vial
Umezawa's Jitte

Those are just some of the options. I kinda wish there was another burn spell worth running besides Bolt, but I'm not sure there is.

Running 3 colors also gives you access to another Mox, and that can not be understated vs. MUD. Especially when all 3 moxen you run could potentially run out a 1 CMC removal Spell (Bolt, Claim, STP) UNDER Golem.

-aside- I don't think Nature's Claim is a great answer to MUD and I especially believe this to be true for a beatdown deck. You really cannot afford to give them extra turns by gaining them life because in that match-up it is sort of a race since you are both living off the top deck (no draw engine). If you are trying to race MUD and you give them extra turns with Claim I think you are forgetting your role, which is pretty much always Beatdown -end aside-

-Storm

In many threads, you post that one-for-one trades are not good in the MUD match-up, yet [I assume without any testing] you suggest an overhaul of the mana-base and indeed deck itself for more sorcery-speed, one-for-one trades: Wild Nacatl, Swords to Plowshares, Lightning Bolt... You may be right, but I wanted to point out the inconsistency.

Aggro absolutely loves to trade one for one whenever it runs skullclamp.

If you find yourself in a MUD heavy meta, where there is not enough drains and combo to warrant rod main, starting with 3 clamp gives you a solid leg up.

I agree with storm that adding red will be worth an only slightly weaker manabase in most sircumstances. You can drop the ESG's for relevant one-drops (nacatl and lavamancer are easy includes, kird ape and mox monkey are worth considering, depending on meta and playstyle) and add tin-street hooligan main. It almost always has a relevant target. You probably have to loose the WW hate bears, which can be a pain of course. Such a build should probably play less than 4 wastelands, unless it also plays mox monkey and aims to mess up manabases.
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Guli
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« Reply #27 on: September 04, 2010, 05:08:14 am »

Yes sure but this thread is G/W for 2010. I don't really agree with the statement of Storm
Quote
Quote from: Stormanimagus on Yesterday at 04:07:53 PM
Another HUUUUGE problem with this deck being G/W right now is that it lacks the more tech (better) answers to MUD that would actually make that a solid match-up.

I am not against splashing red or blue however I am not convinced we have depleted all alternatives within the G/W color pool.
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RecklessEmbermage
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« Reply #28 on: September 05, 2010, 01:31:59 pm »

What do you think of trying to maximize the mana denial approach in a WG shell? Take a look at this:

4 wasteland
1 strip mine
4 windswept heath
2 green fetch
4 savannah
3 flagstones of trokair
3 horizon canopy
2 plains
1 forest
1 karakas

3 life from the loam
3 crop rotation
4 swords to plowshares

2 sylvan safekeeper
4 noble hierarch
4 kataki
3 pridemage
3 jotun grunt
4 elvish spirit guide
2 aven mindcensor
3 knight of the reliquary

SB:
4 null rod
1 pridemage
4 nature's claim
3 true believer
3 vexing shusher

Null rod makes sense to strengthen the wastelands and kataki further, but I made the list and realize there were no other artifacts. Might as well shut off opposing artifact destruction maindeck.

Jotun grunt works very hard here, refueling the deck with targets for knight/croprot/flagstones as well as canopys and dredged cards.

Vexing shusher may be maindeck material, since crop rot makes the list more fragile against counters.

Mindcensor is relatively strong in a deck with some instants, horizon canopys and ESGs.

After boarding, the deck has up to 8 cards that give the opponent life, making the size of the beaters every bit more important. With this set-up, knight of the reliquary should completely dominate the late game.

The list is obviously rough as can be, but the idea might be worth exploring further.
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MaximumCDawg
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« Reply #29 on: September 20, 2010, 02:17:53 pm »

With the printing of Leonin Arbiter and the unrestriction of Gush, I think a GW hatebear deck is poised to be very powerful.  Here's a potential shell:

Creatures (24)

4 Gaddok Teeg   (anti-fow, gush, tendrils, belcher)
4 Leonin Arbiter  (anti-fetchlands, search)
4 Aven Mindcensor (ditto)
4 Quasali Pridemage (anti-shop, shop
4 Elvish Spirit Guide (Accell)
4 Kataki, War's Wage (anti-shop)

Mana Disruption (9)
1 Strip Mine
4 Wasteland
4 Null Rod

Removal (8)
4 Swords to Plowshares (anti-shop, fish)
2 Nature's Claim  (anti-shop)
2 Seal of Cleansing (anti-shop, sphinx of steel wind)

Land (19)
3 Windswept Heath
4 Savanna
4 GW Shockland
4 Forest
4 Plains

The idea here is that early Gaddok Teeg now shuts down decks that use Gush as a draw engine, while Mindcensor + Arbiter royally screw up singleton lists and storm in general.  With 8 ways to interfere with tutors, the best counter to a fish deck - Tinkerbots - are disrupted.  You could run Samauri of the Pale Curtain and Tariff in the sideboard for more outs.  Generally, though, a singleton vintage deck should be hard-pressed to win if you can reliably stop it from searching its library.  This leaves only shop, dredge, and fish to worry about.
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