[Deck] GWr Mr. Gaddock

[Guli]

It is way early to post my new Gaddock aka 'effect is tempo' aka 'Guli's pet deck' as an established archetype or deck. But I believe the 'Creative' section is the right place since it can receive a good portion of feedback and critics and grow. Still I believe I have an edged when it comes to these types of decks because this is what I do in the magic world. I design and play test a specific fish approach mostly without the use of null rod and of course tons of builds WITH null rod as well. In this small article I will talk about some new cards that I added and rephrase the fundamentals of my approach. Of course their is a decklist at the end which for me is more of a reference than anything else right now. It will grow and most likely change a lot.

Don't worry I have not included Aether vial this time. I did add a techy artifact which is used more in other formats but I strongly believe it has a place in decks with massive amounts of creatures. Of course not vanilla creatures, every single one has a function and their is a priority rule which one to cast first depending on the match up.

Burn or direct damage is a bit more relevant nowadays. For me this means looking at the possibilities in the creature (everything walks) pool. For white you have Icatian Javelineers and for red mogg fanatic and grim lavamancer. Their are others and you may suggest them in this thread. To deal with big fatties or creatures I used the gilded drake/bouncer in the past with succes. I never dedicated much slots to it because of the uselessness against other match ups. But burn is never really dead, but also not always as optimal. Burn and deathtouch is not a new idea but it is nevertheless creative play in vintage terms. You burn down small critters and if they are too fat you try to deathtouch/burn to keep board control.

Basilisk Collar is cheap and solves a lot of problems by using your most important resource in the game, the creature base. With Icatian Javelineers you can actually shoot down Sphinx out of the sky. Of course we want to stop Tinker with things like canonist/REB and Aven Mindcensor to begin with but having the little tech as a 'plan B' does present them with another problem. Grim Lavanmancer can not shoot down the Sphinx but it can break the mirror, and is a more durable way to have access to burn.

I started with the creature control section of the deck. Creature control is a part of the board control section. Another aspect of board control is artifact control which is pretty relevant nowadays. Kataki works well with a mana denial strategy aka null rod based fish. I was tempted and might still add it but I wanted a bit more synergy with Collar. So I thought why not use Goblin Vandal. In the light of two major things. You most likely are clearing his side of the board with burn and could get a collar up and running. Vandal likes both. I also naturally added Qasali without giving much thought to it. Maybe this was wrong but the card serves me well and why question good stuff.

That is it for the board control part of the deck. Their is a catch however. If we somehow gained information early on and find out what their deck is trying to do the pilot can respond with the correct set up to deal with it making it easier or more possible to make correct decisions. That and you also want a faster clock which also cuts down their winning routs. A bit experimental and risky but intriguing as well, Goblin Guide gets a shot. He does what I want, delivers damage and gives me vital information of their deck so I can adjust my play.

The previous card choices are all support. The core part of the deck are things like gaddock, canonist, magus of the moon, Aven to deny or dismantle the powerplays. Why and how are things I discussed in the past. I am not going to dedicate more lines of text into it. You can use the search engine and look up previous threads. This post covered the usage of new tech and specific answers to board control. Also the fundamental idea is repeated, you want as much creatures as you can to solve your problems. You can either do that and play with goblin guide to know what to play first making it less important that you play out your other part of your hand later on, OR you can play with counter spells so you can do some selkie drawing and try to maximize the efficiency of your hand size. The accent in my approach is in the effectiveness of your permanents. In order to be effective with your permanents you need a lot of permanents and you need to know which one has to go first.

Mr. Gaddock 2010 [GWR Fish]

the mana base

(A lot of fetchlands are needed because you want to get forest and plains active by the time you cast Magus of the moon. Also you need to fuel Grim Lavamancer)


// Lands
    2 Plateau
    1 Taiga
    2 Plains
    2 Forest
    4 Windswept Heath
    2 Wooded Foothills
    2 Arid Mesa

// Creatures
    4 Magus of the Moon
    4 Gaddock Teeg
    4 Qasali Pridemage
    4 Ethersworn Canonist
    4 Goblin Guide
    4 Aven Mindcensor
    4 Goblin Vandal
    4 Grim Lavamancer
    4 Icatian Javelineers

// Artifacts
    1 Black Lotus
    1 Mox Ruby
    1 Mox Pearl
    1 Mox Emerald
    1 Lotus Petal
    4 Basilisk Collar

// Sideboard
SB: 4 Pithing Needle
SB: 4 Red Elemental Blast
SB: 4 Null Rod
SB: 3 Nature's Claim

The goals of this thread are
- To inspire players so they can also, if they wish, try out this kind of archetype
- To contribute in the evolution of this interesting approach by giving feedback and critics
- To deliver an interesting read for those who like these creative lines of thinking
- To give people the chance to post,discuss and compare their own [GWR-fish]

[RecklessEmbermage]

My immediate reaction is that basilisk collar is not a strong enough card to build around if it demands playing sub-par cards. For every ping with a javelineer, you have to play a new one and pay 2 to equip it to reload. Seems like weak sauce.

Lavamancer on the other hand is more than good enough even without collar. What do you think of reducing the focus on collar, but making it easy to get to when you need it? Something like this: 3 grim lavamancer, 2 stoneforge mystic, 1 basilisk collar, 1 sword of fire and ice (good in a deck that aims to effectively clear away blockers), 2 skullclamp? (subtly, mystic makes the flash on mindcensor more relevant. Minor point, but worth mentioning)

Several of those cards are mana intensive, but with a functional 4 clamps (and sofi), you can take some card disadvantage to get mana, either by playing a few mox diamonds or SSGs.

If you want another pinger, I'd go with granger guildmage. Yes it costs mana to activate, but you only need to equip once. First strike is relevant against other fish or against golems if you have a clamped 2/2 on the board.

If you are willing to spend slots on goblin guide, then it makes no sense to me not to include nacatl. The utility of goblin is certainly useful, but it is mostly a hasted 2/2 after all.

If you do end up with such an enormous creature-count (yes, yes, I get the list is more of an indication of where you want to be heading than an actual deck), aether vial must be considered.

My 2 cents this time around.

[nineisnoone]

Goblin Guide, Basilisk Collar, and Javelineers just seem wrong. 

A 2/2 with Haste is really nothing and a free land is plenty.    Let's not forget with Jace, they pretty much are going to get that free land.  Or with Top or Brainstorm. 

I fail to see the point with Collar.  Even in Standard it was a one-of, and it's only run because of that 0/1 hasted guy that can deal damage to creatures with his ability. You're trading on most combat anyways.  The only thing it seems good for is Inkwell and shop creatures and that is super narrow and sub-optimal.  Sure, you can shoot a Sphinx.  Of course, you could just run Disenchant which would cost less mana and not be hit by random artifact hate. 

Javelineers is just sort of excessive with Lavamancer and probably not worth picking over Moog Fanatic if you want to ping something.  Yes, Sphinx but again it feels unnecessary.

Not sure how I feel about Magus, but I generally don't run him, so I dunno. 

SB seems okay.  I'm guessing you are okay with losing 100% to Ichorid.  Null Rod without any other form of mana disruption seems like a weak addition though.

[xouman]

While I love magus of the moon, resolving it breaks you mana base unless you had fetched for those basic forests and plains. You won't always have 2 fetches, and maybe you have something better to fetch.

4 lavamancers in a deck without instants or sorceries seems weird. Magus of the scroll, while being mediocre, could be better in this deck.

Canonist is great against 1/4 of the field but no so great against rest of the field.

Gorila shaman is quite disruptive, more if you don't play null rod or chalice.

Wild nacatl puts a nice clock, I would play it over lavamancer in this deck. Maybe Woolly thoctar deserves a try?

Even it is not a creature, I would include Choke, maybe in the sideboard...

[Guli]

Some quick responses (I will make a longer response after more playtesting)

Magus of the moon does not break down the mana base at all, it actually protects it. With the basic land, mox and fetchland at your disposal you will not encounter any problems at all. This deck does not see Magus of the Moon as THE key card. That is what makes the magus even more powerful, not relying on it, another important hoser that doesn't hose us but can do massive amounts of damage on your opponent. There are decks that build around him and get him in play turn 1 or turn 2 more consistently than this deck and rely on it and goes for speed. That is not the case here and that is what makes it even more dangerous imo. A slightly delayed Magus can cause as much problems as a super early one.

Goblin Guide may 'seem' wrong but I am getting very found of the card the more I play with it. There are two notes I want to bring in this thread about GG;
- The haste is super relevant it does massive damage and increases the clock significantly which is an 'immediate effect'.
- It is not an extra confidant for them. More of a isamaru with haste that says, look at the top card of you opponents library. The information is vital and determines a lot. Meddling Mage could work well with this guy in another color build.

Basilisk Collar is not clear and might be indeed wrong. It is however a card that they can not allow to be on line forever. Needs more testing. Great against mirror though.

Javelineer was so bad, I completely agree on this one with nineisnoone. Trying out Mogg fanatic instead like suggested and it is much much better.

A more general note I want to make, if you look at the list a lot of creatures need mana to activate. This is something I was aware of and I anticipated some problems. It has to change. I didn't like Goblin Vandal. Just not enough mana to activate everything. Needs some thinking. Ancient grudge is an idea.

Grim Lavamancer was strong and has enough fuel with fetch/qasali/fanatic/things that get killed/countered.

canonist is great against 1/4 of the field but no so great against rest of the field.

This is normal. That is were the 'priority rule' becomes so important. You cast the creatures you need and you accept that some cards in your deck are no so great in some match ups. I always accepted this as a fish player. You can not compete with the quality difference with creatures. Still there are ways to 'recycle' these so called dead draws. I used skull clamp in the past with success. A toolbox of equip might be more profound indeed instead of 4x Collar.

[nineisnoone]

I just don't see haste as being relevant.  Nactal wins in casting turn (1) + 7.  Goblin Guide wins in casting turn (1) + 9.  Nactal is just faster.  The free land isn't huge but it's a drawback, and Nactal would improve your aggro match-up because it will one-side all bears. 

[RecklessEmbermage]

I just don't see haste as being relevant.  Nactal wins in casting turn (1) + 7.  Goblin Guide wins in casting turn (1) + 9.  Nactal is just faster.  The free land isn't huge but it's a drawback, and Nactal would improve your aggro match-up because it will one-side all bears. 

Guide and Nacatl aren't really competitors. If you go for an aggressive approach in WGR, nacatl is unquestionable. Since 4 1cc beaters isn't enough, a choice must be made between some candidates of similar strength: Kird ape, loam lion, steppe lynx, skyshroud elite and goblin guide are all up there and the choice depends mainly on meta and manabase. I haven't played with guide, but I've heard very good things about it.

[BruiZar]

steppe lynx is better than both imo. Both nacatl and lynx require have land drop requirements. Steppe lynx connects for more.

[Guli]

I think RecklessEmbermage  is correct when it comes down to competition. Sure Goblin Guide adds a lot to the clock but he isn't there for that reason (at least it isn't the main reason). I compare him to duress when it comes down to gaining information. Let's not compare, the concept is simple, I want to know what my opponent is playing and I want to know what he will draw every turn. If he is going to be busy outplaying Goblin Guide then he isn't paying attention to the real threats. Argument: The random card advantage that that GG gives to your opponent doesn't outweigh the benefits that GG gives to your game plan.

I also like that when you topdeck GG and the game is evolved to the midgame and your beating the life total down to the red zone. At that moment that potentially extra card will not necessarily save them from losing because most likely their are hosers on the board. With hosers the card quantity matters less, you then need specific answers to solve that board presence of stuff like aven, canonist, teeg, magus, ...

As for raw muscle power I have truly not given it much thought, but I kinda like both (nacatl/lynx) in this deck. However do you really need it? How about something like Mirror Entity that could potentially finish the game the next turn with so many creatures. The reason why I talk about a more expensive card to compare with cheap solid 1 drops that beat for clock, is that early game you already have a lot of stuff you want to do with your hosers and real threats. Doesn't it make sense mana cruve wise that your clock is something like Mirror Entity (relatively expensive spell) to finish AFTER you establish board control. And you can do it in 1 quick swing.

I played Brian's vial deck today and we went 2-2. The match was so interesting. He was using Serra Ascendant to its fullest extent. Things like exalted, mirror entity and jitte can actually make Serra Ascendant a powerhouse. I was able to put creatures between me and Serra Ascendant to keep her at bay but still felt the power of the card. A simple 1 drop that is very useful early game and becomes an important powerhouse mid game to keep you alive. The deck used City of Brass so the lifelink was critical. It really inspired me. There are some of those level up creatures as well. I don't know how effective they would be. (Figure, Student) In either case I would love to have something that somehow fits in with the rest of the decks mechanics. That is why I like Bruizars suggestion of Lynx. I live and die of the fetch lands. Still I would like to have more connection between deck and Lynx.

Here is a more serious list with Null Rod, something that looks pretty solid on paper.

//Lands
    2 Plateau
    3 Plains
    2 Forest
    2 Arid Mesa
    1 Taiga
    4 Windswept Heath
    2 Wooded Foothills
    1 Mountain

// Creatures
    4 Goblin Guide
    4 Magus of the Moon
    4 Gaddock Teeg
    4 Aven Mindcensor
    4 Qasali Pridemage
    4 Wild Nacatl/Steppe Lynx (prefer Nacatl in here)
    4 Ethersworn Canonist
    4 Mogg Fanatic

// Spells
    1 Black Lotus
    1 Mox Ruby
    1 Mox Pearl
    1 Mox Emerald
    4 Null Rod
    3 Swords to Plowshares

The sideboard is another topic. I find it personally hard to create the sideboard just now but I also want it to evolve parallel with main deck.

3 Serenity
3 Pithing Needle
4 Leyline of Sanctity
3 Hidden Guerillas
2 Ravenous Trap (some additional grave hate)

[RecklessEmbermage]

If you play creatures with activated abilities costing mana, aven mindcensor and horizon canopy become better (if you didn't need the ability, draw or flash at the end of opponent's turn). Arguably, levelers have dissynergy with the above cards, since you already put enormous pressure on your available mana, yet figure of destiny has great synergy (use it end of turn). In a deck with canopy's knight of the reliquary is good, making steppe lynx a tolerable topdeck.

Ahem. Sorry if that was unreadable. Can I suggest a list purely based on synergy? Not saying its good, only that the pieces fit together well:

3 grim lavamancer
2 figure of destiny
1 sylvan safekeeper
4 qasali pridemage
2 true believer
2 gaddock teeg
2 jotun grunt
2 stoneforge mystic
3 knight of the reliquary
2 aven mindcensor

1 skullclamp
1 sword of fire and ice
1 basilisk collar
2 sensei's divining top
4 aether vial
4 mox diamond

2 life from the loam

4 arid mesa
4 windswept heath
1 savannah
2 plateau
1 plains
3 horizon canopy
1 flagstones of trokair
1 maze of ith
4 wasteland
1 strip mine

Man, that's gready! You get the general idea: Play a bunch of cheap permanents and take control of the game from turn 3-ish, using all your excess mana on a myriad of little effects.

This would be completely hosed by null rod and looses to hurkyl's. I tried to add more hate-bears for the vials and tops, but there wasn't enough room. Some can go in the sideboard. I chose to drop the lynxes and other aggressive one-drops, since the rest of the deck isn't really set up to create real momentum particularly early. Instead I added hate-bears to go with top and vial. The most respectable first turn plays are mox diamond->two-drop and aether vial, since the 1cc creatures are better slightly later (it is absolutely fine to vial them in turn 2, for instance).

The manabase looks like a complete mess, but there is enough mana of each color and most games should start: fetch -> basic plains -> play that involves a white mana. The single flagstones is for when you draw the sylvan safekeeper. If you have a knight, you can recycle it via jotun grunt. If not, lftl does the trick. Safekeeper is a marginal card to run more than one of, but with a decent amount of draw and library manipulation it should be possible to find it when it counts (for example if you want to equip one of your bigger creatures with sofi or pump figure to the maximum level . If you start with maze of ith on hand, chances are that you can ditch it to a mox and recycle it later if you need it. I basically put it in there to compensate for the StPs I had to cut to make more room for bears.

There's just so much to pick from in these colors. Saffi eriksdotter, duergar hedgemage, ranger of eos etc.

[nineisnoone]

steppe lynx is better than both imo. Both nacatl and lynx require have land drop requirements. Steppe lynx connects for more.

How many lands do you think you are going to drop?  If you only drop 1 land, you are doing less than a full Nacatl.  If you drop 2 you are only doing 1 more.  If you don't drop any, then you can't do any.  I just can't see Lynx doing more damage.

I think RecklessEmbermage  is correct when it comes down to competition. Sure Goblin Guide adds a lot to the clock but he isn't there for that reason (at least it isn't the main reason). I compare him to duress when it comes down to gaining information. Let's not compare, the concept is simple, I want to know what my opponent is playing and I want to know what he will draw every turn. If he is going to be busy outplaying Goblin Guide then he isn't paying attention to the real threats. Argument: The random card advantage that that GG gives to your opponent doesn't outweigh the benefits that GG gives to your game plan.

No, he doesn't add anything to your clock.  And I just can't seriously take you spinning his drawback as being an advantage.  It's not Duress, it's Peek.  No one plays Peek.  And actually, it's not even Peek.

[Guli]

steppe lynx is better than both imo. Both nacatl and lynx require have land drop requirements. Steppe lynx connects for more.

How many lands do you think you are going to drop?  If you only drop 1 land, you are doing less than a full Nacatl.  If you drop 2 you are only doing 1 more.  If you don't drop any, then you can't do any.  I just can't see Lynx doing more damage.

I think RecklessEmbermage  is correct when it comes down to competition. Sure Goblin Guide adds a lot to the clock but he isn't there for that reason (at least it isn't the main reason). I compare him to duress when it comes down to gaining information. Let's not compare, the concept is simple, I want to know what my opponent is playing and I want to know what he will draw every turn. If he is going to be busy outplaying Goblin Guide then he isn't paying attention to the real threats. Argument: The random card advantage that that GG gives to your opponent doesn't outweigh the benefits that GG gives to your game plan.

No, he doesn't add anything to you clock.  And I just can't seriously take you spinning his drawback as being an advantage.  It's not Duress, it's Peek.  No one plays Peek.  And actually, it's not even Peek.

It is very important for a deck full of creatures to have knowledge of what is coming. You aren't playing instants, you are going to have to make choices to pre-emptively stop their threats and the more you know the better. Also, if you never tried the card you have absolutely no idea about how much clock pressure he is really putting. Doing some maths will not bring you closer to grasp the effect of GG.

[nineisnoone]

Ehh.  You say so.  But personally I'll trust my math skills.

[Stormanimagus]

The other hugely important aspect of Nacatl that people haven't mentioned is his ability to trade with Lodestone Golem. I'm surprised no has mentioned this as I believe it is the #1 reason that he trumps other options right now for Creature-based Aggro.

At the moment:

Nacatl >>>> Goblin Guide > Steppe Lynx.

I think this is pretty indisputable, but someone can make an argument for the other 2 if they'd like to.

-Storm

[personalbackfire]

I think if I were running a GR fish deck I would try and make room for Bloodbraid Elf. I have actually tried playing  GRB with Bloodbraid and was impressed with it. It generates much needed card advantage in a deck that normally wouldn't have it. However getting to 4 mana sometimes is a pain, or was in my testing.

[xouman]

1 skullclamp
1 sword of fire and ice
1 basilisk collar
2 sensei's divining top
4 aether vial
4 mox diamond


All those artifacts make the deck too sensitive to null rod, qasalis may be not enough to break them. Tin street holligan may fill the gap?

If the deck turns more aggro, maybe burning shaman could be tested, vault+key shouldn't be a problem (2 damage each turn, and you should have dealt more damage).

[RecklessEmbermage]

1 skullclamp
1 sword of fire and ice
1 basilisk collar
2 sensei's divining top
4 aether vial
4 mox diamond


All those artifacts make the deck too sensitive to null rod, qasalis may be not enough to break them. Tin street holligan may fill the gap?

If the deck turns more aggro, maybe burning shaman could be tested, vault+key shouldn't be a problem (2 damage each turn, and you should have dealt more damage).

Agreed about null rod. Hooligan is a good solution, so is artifact mutation. Duergar hedge mage is not supported with that manabase when playing against rod (since they should be wasting the plateaus) and the 3cc 3/2 from alara block is weaker than hooligan.

That said, I'm pretty sure that list is too complicated. There are just too many ties on the mana, too many combos that need to come together and too little attacking from an early stage. I was very tired yesterday and put together a list that would not perform in a real setting.

Shaman is a house against many decks, including that list. Playing it would be suicide. But yes, it is a card to keep in mind.

When it comes to comparing one mana creatures, I still think I'd take 2/3s over both GG and lynx. I guess I just want the ability to block and dominate the fish match-up. In my meta, almost all the decks play some kind of creatures and some kind of creature removal. I prefer a creature that can hit for two every time to one that can hit for four sometimes and otherwise gets chumped, has to chump something, pinged or drawn when it is irrelevant. GG I would use in a pure aggro deck, to go with bolts to put games away past turn 3.

[Guli]

Bloodbraid Elf looks extremely interesting because you will most likely get one of your bears. Bloodbraid Elf will act as a tempo boost in that context. I always try to see what the effect of the card may be. Your two drop will cost 2 mana most likely so you aren't really paying too  much mana. Is 2 mana for a  3/2 haste enough though since the other two mana is going to your bear. I guess the extra card you get is also an important factor to consider. The risk is getting a mox but then you get another mana so I don't know. Definitly interesting no matter what.

I still didn't get through some people about GG. It is not a matter of comparison, but more like multi functionality. GG adds to the clock especially combined with Wild Nacatl and exalted. But like I stated he also delivers information which translates into card advantage and good decision making. The last list I posted with Null Rod (a couple listst earlier) is a closer attempt to benefit from GG's ability. Will I play Null Rod now or do I want to play Gaddock Teeg or something else. I just created this thread, give it some time. I don't have all day to look for new cards for good synergy. The more people post, the more inspiration we all get. But I do like that nineisnoone is being critical. I need that to push my limits and dig deeper.

@nineisnoone: I am not satisfied about GG yet either, but I do recognize serious potential. I do like the way people are bringing in new idea's and themes. Keep it up.

I also want to say that Null Rod is most likely going to end up in main deck. Even if my initial exemplary list had the interesting Basilisk Collar main deck. Null Rod is simply too powerful as an effect, so what if it doesn't have legs. It is one card that isn't a creature, I can live with that. Null Rod adds power to Magus of the Moon and Ethersworn Canonist for obvious reasons. Even if the main goal isn't mana denial, Magus+Aven+Null Rod can wreck their access to mana considerably.

I have to say though, against workshop (MUD) those sphere effects can be extremely hard to deal with. The mana base is solid and that helps a lot. However a well timed Tangle Wire means a lot of time walks while you are losing 4-5 life/turn. Vial would be nice to fight yourself out of these situations at the cost of being vulnerable to Null Rod and artifact hate. I did my share of vial though and I learned never to dismiss the card, but right now I want to explore other routes.

Burning shaman is one of those cards that makes me feel warm but I can't see a good way to abuse it. I can live with some damage on myself because of cards like Mogg Fanatic, fetchland and qasali. But I don't have the feeling that Burning Shaman really stops anything. It doesn't deny spells at all. Maybe with the fast damage we are trying to deal, the burning shaman could shine? I like that kind of deck synergy, its not at the card to card level but more 'general goal' to 'general goal' level. Still at one side you are trying to disrupt their game and deny them key spells or decrease the effectiveness of their power to the minimum and at the other side you have this 3 mana investment that deals damage when something is activated. Can someone please explain me the connection? I can see that we will deal damage with our creatures and the extra damage from Burning shaman will help, but that alone would not cut it for me.

What about Countryside Crusher as an effect to have some kind of engine. Topdecking a land is not good in a deck with so many low cc creatures. Does anyone have first hand experience with Crusher? You can save your extra fetches for this guy too. Drawing into more hosers indirectly means that Countryside is a hoser itself. I know my comparisons sometimes go overboard but its like a 'clone' every turn (clone of the creature that is topdecked removing all lands in between)  maximizing the creature pressure. Maybe it is also possible to sneak in some strip effects in the deck.

Knight of the Reliquary is also a nice engine with interesting plays. But it begs for a toolbox and if you want to use it, then you can't swing. This card demands some stuff of your decks mana base and I don't want to give up my super solid fetch/basic base.

I am starting to suggest these engine type of creature cards because I believe it is time to tune. With tune I mean start cutting the 4x creatureX and find the correct number and add in things like 2x Countryside Crusher. What cards are truly a must 4 off?

[BruiZar]

If you really want to capitalize on Goblin Guide, why don't you play Meddling Mage/Pithing Needle/Cabal Therapy? Those are the cards that can really capitalize on the information.

[Guli]

If you really want to capitalize on Goblin Guide, why don't you play Meddling Mage/Pithing Needle/Cabal Therapy? Those are the cards that can really capitalize on the information.

That is what I am thinking as well but I am not convinced that it is the 'best' way to capitalize on the intel. Also not falling in the trap of 'relying too much' on a specific card is key here. Things have to be smooth and balanced and work nicely. What I mean is this. Card wise you have the synergy between GG and MM. Strategy wise its information and denial. You could also combine information with 'tutoring' or maybe something totally different. You also don't need to create these axes of synergy. Another approach perhaps. I am thinking about it.

Little notes: Synergy between GG and Magus Moon: only a basic land would truly help him out there. Sure he got 2 cards and you helped him dig through the relatively useless fetchland or nonbasic. But you are aware of the situation which helps a lot. Another example is between information and creature removal. He reveals a misdirection and I am holding a swords to plowshares. I first play gaddock teeg and get rid of his creature AFTER teeg resolves. You could argue that you should do this anyway but that is not true. If you are holding other threats as well you might skip teeg and play null rod or canonist.

[RecklessEmbermage]

I am starting to suggest these engine type of creature cards because I believe it is time to tune. With tune I mean start cutting the 4x creatureX and find the correct number and add in things like 2x Countryside Crusher. What cards are truly a must 4 off?

I strongly feel that the deck should have atleast 8 aggressive one-drops to put on early pressure. The first turn is the best opportunity to play these, because you: slip your clock on the board before counters and sphere effects, you fully capitalize on pridemage (if we agree that pridemage is strong enough to warrant 3-4 slots) and because the disruptive alternatives on 2cc are better.

I also thing we should aim to play 5 waste effects, simply because waste has this tendency to completely screw people over. With wastes, magus is probably not a good fit anymore and our manabase becomes more flexible.

I would not be comfortable without goyf or a way to combat goyf. Jotun grunt is a solid answer and randomly slows down graveyard base strategies. With enough lands going to the graveyard, the deck could support 3, but 2 may be better. What would you run? Goyf or grunt?

Qasali pridemage is such a solid beater in sircumstances where the utility is of less importance that I think we should run 4 main.

I haven't thought about countryside crusher for a long time, but it is damn big and has superb synergy with grunt on a 'card to card level' and with taking over the late game, bringing more and more pain on a 'general level' as you put it. If we choose him to top our curve, the manabase might have to be tilted slightly in that direction and something like true believer becomes less interesting.

It is largely a meta consideration whether we want null rod or vial and/or skullclamp main. Subtly, crusher will fill some of the function as clamp in aggro match-ups (card quality rather than CA). It is uninteresting to pack vial in the side, because it shines in the same match-ups as null rod. Clamp however, may have merit in the sideboard.

What do you think of this skeleton:

4 wild nacatl
4 GG
4 qasali pridemage
3 jotun grunt
7 assorted hate bears
2 countryside crusher

3 null rod
1 black lotus
1 mox emerald
1 mox ruby
1 mox pearl
1 mox diamond

4 lightning bolt
3 StP

4 wooded foothills
4 windswept heath
2 plateau
2 taiga
1 forest
1 mountain
2 horizon canopy
4 wasteland
1 strip mine

No basic plains. We can afford to get our second land wasted. 15 red sources, 15 green, 14 white, excluding lotus is a bare minimum when factoring in our own rods or opposing wastes. Am I close to the money, you think?

EDIT: -2 lavamancer, +1 bolt, +1 windswept heath

[Guli]

I am starting to suggest these engine type of creature cards because I believe it is time to tune. With tune I mean start cutting the 4x creatureX and find the correct number and add in things like 2x Countryside Crusher. What cards are truly a must 4 off?

I strongly feel that the deck should have atleast 8 aggressive one-drops to put on early pressure. The first turn is the best opportunity to play these, because you: slip your clock on the board before counters and sphere effects, you fully capitalize on pridemage (if we agree that pridemage is strong enough to warrant 3-4 slots) and because the disruptive alternatives on 2cc are better.

I also thing we should aim to play 5 waste effects, simply because waste has this tendency to completely screw people over. With wastes, magus is probably not a good fit anymore and our manabase becomes more flexible.

I would not be comfortable without goyf or a way to combat goyf. Jotun grunt is a solid answer and randomly slows down graveyard base strategies. With enough lands going to the graveyard, the deck could support 3, but 2 may be better. What would you run? Goyf or grunt?

Qasali pridemage is such a solid beater in sircumstances where the utility is of less importance that I think we should run 4 main.

I haven't thought about countryside crusher for a long time, but it is damn big and has superb synergy with grunt on a 'card to card level' and with taking over the late game, bringing more and more pain on a 'general level' as you put it. If we choose him to top our curve, the manabase might have to be tilted slightly in that direction and something like true believer becomes less interesting.

It is largely a meta consideration whether we want null rod or vial and/or skullclamp main. Subtly, crusher will fill some of the function as clamp in aggro match-ups (card quality rather than CA). It is uninteresting to pack vial in the side, because it shines in the same match-ups as null rod. Clamp however, may have merit in the sideboard.

What do you think of this skeleton:

4 wild nacatl
4 GG
2 grim lavamancer
4 qasali pridemage
3 jotun grunt
7 assorted hate bears
2 countryside crusher

3 null rod
1 black lotus
1 mox emerald
1 mox ruby
1 mox pearl
1 mox diamond

3 lightning bolt
3 StP

4 wooded foothills
3 windswept heath
2 plateau
2 taiga
1 forest
1 mountain
2 horizon canopy
4 wasteland
1 strip mine

No basic plains. We can afford to get our second land wasted. 14 red sources, 14 green, 13 white, excluding lotus is a bare minimum when factoring in our own rods or opposing wastes. Am I close to the money, you think?

I feel more comfortable with basic lands/good amount of fetch lands to keep things solid. I also like how Magus is able to protect me against Strip Mine. Horizon Canopy is a strong card and should be used in builds that go heavy on GW. I also think that with Country Side you can afford to play more fetchlands or lands in general than usual because he can negate the disadvantage of so many lands mid game. The idea is to set up a solid base with fetch lands quickly and then play MagusMoon or Crusher to sit on that solid base.

I have a remark on your Grim and Grunt. They both feed of cards in the graveyard. It worries me and I would make a choice which one to use. Whichever you think you need most.

The more we all refresh on the GWR card pool the more cards come into mind. I totally forgot about Grunt which can also act as an engine. I once had this list of all potential bears per color. I need to remake and update it and go through it again.

[RecklessEmbermage]

I feel more comfortable with basic lands/good amount of fetch lands to keep things solid. I also like how Magus is able to protect me against Strip Mine. Horizon Canopy is a strong card and should be used in builds that go heavy on GW. I also think that with Country Side you can afford to play more fetchlands or lands in general than usual because he can negate the disadvantage of so many lands mid game. The idea is to set up a solid base with fetch lands quickly and then play MagusMoon or Crusher to sit on that solid base.

I have a remark on your Grim and Grunt. They both feed of cards in the graveyard. It worries me and I would make a choice which one to use. Whichever you think you need most.

The more we all refresh on the GWR card pool the more cards come into mind. I totally forgot about Grunt which can also act as an engine. I once had this list of all potential bears per color. I need to remake and update it and go through it again.

I took out the magi to add wastes because wastes are harder to play around and have better synergy with crusher, lavamancer and grunt. They have bad synergy with guide, but if it comes to that, guide is easily replaceable. Do people sometimes double up on magus and wasteland? The list may be a tiny bit land light still. Maybe 2 lands light.

I am well aware of grim and grunt. The thing is that if you have one at a table, you're usually in a good position and as soon as it is removed/dies (because you cannot pay the upkeep) the graveyard will refill in no time. A total of 5 of these should be relatively easy to support. That said, maybe magus is not strong enough without deathtouch and should be replaced by a bolt and a land.

I'll do that..

[Guli]

White creature pool
Aven Mindcensor
Ethersworn Canonist
Jötun Grunt
Kataki, War's Wage
True Believer
Loam Lion
Student of Warfare
Serra Ascendant
Samurai of the Pale Curtain
Serra Avenger
Glowrider

Green creature pool
Tarmogoyf
Wild Nacatl
Noble Hierarch
Elvish Spirit Guide
Hidden Guerillas
Wild Mongrel
Great Sable Stag
Heartwood Storyteller
Ohran Viper
Birds of Paradise

Red creature pool
Magus of the Moon
Goblin Guide
Countryside Crusher
Kird Ape
Simian Spirit Guide
Gorilla Shaman
Goblin Welder
Goblin Vandal
Mogg Fanatic
Goblin Tinkerer
Viashino Heretic   
Tin Street Hooligan
Grim Lavamancer

Gold creature pool
Gaddock Teeg
Qasali Pridemage
Vexing Shusher
Knight of the Reliquary
Figure of Destniy
Burning-Tree Shaman

Please forgive me if I forgot the obvious ones. Feel free to post I will add them.

[RecklessEmbermage]

Nice!

White: Steppe lynx, samurai of the pale curtain, stoneforge mystic, mother of runes (borderline, but good in casual/creature-heavy settings), kami of ancient law, ronom unicorn,

Green: skyshroud elite, hidden gibbons, kavu predator, sylvan safekeeper, viridian zealot

Red: grim lavamancer,

Gold: kitchen finks, burning-tree shaman, scab-clan mauler (again a mostly casual card), boros swiftblade (good in berserk decks), duergar hedge-mage, goblin legionnaire

Feel free not to include some of these if you think their applications are too narrow or power levels are too low.

[Guli]

Jotun Grunt is amazing against dredge in this deck. Especially after SB, you can play Rav. Trap.

Countryside Crusher is also impressive. The two red could look like a problem but that is not really an issue. I don't want 4x grunt and 4x Crusher. But I like the way these cards support and shine in a deck full of hosers and cute, new and creative stuff going on.

So what does my list look like right now? What changed and what direction am I headed?

Couple of things I really like and find important are:

- I want maximum amount of fetch lands and lots of basics. I call this the rainbow mana base (naya).

- I want to use Crusher. He has the muscle and the kind of utility that will give you a stronger position. Not really want to build the deck around him but would like to be able to do more connecting mid game. A card that I have put on the shell but could give both these creatures more boost while countering spot removal is Syvan Safekeeper. I used Sylvan Safekeeper in the past to protect my canonist and teeg against ANT,Grim Long, TPS and combo in general. They usually ran just a couple of bounce spells and could not get out of the lock because I had plenty of lands to sac. One Sylvan Safekeeper on the table can change a lot against many decks. Multiples is not good. I think it is worth it to play 2x in a deck with a lot of creatures. I don't like mother of runes because of the summoning sickness and not able to use it multiple times in one given turn. Back to Countryside Crusher, the card prevents dead draws, the deck can run of 3-4 mana sources the entire game because everything is super cheap. I would like something like life from the loam though. This can make Crusher big and give Sylvan Safekeeper, if ever used in the deck, more to work with. Another thing about sylvan is that it enables a faster clock with Crusher. For example if Crusher is a 4/4 and you have 4 lands it actually is a potental 8/8 with Safekeeper. I used this kind of tricks with Knight of the Reliquary and it works nicely. I don't know if Knight and Crusher could work out in the same deck. Maybe a split is fine 2xKnight/2xCrusher. This way you will have 4 slots dedicated for some kind of engine that also is a huge beater. Getting both succesfully in play could be hard but if it happens they will feed each other nicely, they like one another. The fundamental issue I have with Knight here is Magus of the Moon and Grunt. That is what I like about Countryside crusher, it doesn't affect or gets affected by your other creatures in a negative way, on the contrary.

- I have noticed how strong serenity can be in this deck. I almost always board it in. This got me thinking why not use it main deck. The card fills up the gabs very nicely and outside of canonist and your 3 mox it does not hurt yourself at all. I don't see why I would not use serenity main deck right now. It breaks the shop match up, it can destroy those artifact mana under a Magus of the Moon. It can get rid of equipments and chalice. My intuition could be wrong but it feels like serenity is good at filling in some gabs in the deck. Clearing the board of permanents but leaving alone creatures, which is what permanent type this deck is going heavily on. So in a way serenity capitalizes on the fact that this decks opts for solving its problems with only creatures with some exceptions. Sounds logical to me. In what match up is serenity such a dead draw that the rest of the deck can't compensate for it? I think I made my point.

- The list right now, as it evolved from the initial idea's into something more concrete:

// Mana sources [24]
    2 Plains
    2 Forest
    2 Mountain
    1 Plateau
    1 Taiga
    4 Arid Mesa
    4 Windswept Heath
    4 Wooded Foothills
    1 Black Lotus
    1 Mox Ruby
    1 Mox Pearl
    1 Mox Emerald

// Creatures [30]
    4 Goblin Guide
    4 Magus of the Moon
    4 Gaddock Teeg
    4 Qasali Pridemage
    3 Ethersworn Canonist
    3 Aven Mindcensor
    2 Countryside Crusher
    2 Jotun Grunt
    2 Sylvan Safekeeper
    2 Student of Warfare?

// Spells/Tools [6]
    3 Swords to Plowshares (great against Tinker/Sphinx when you have canonist or teeg in play)
    3 Serenity

// Sideboard [15]
    4 Leyline of Sanctity
    3 Pithing Needle
    3 Ravenous Trap (your gameplan is to play an early trap to buy time for magus and grunt and that seals the deal after you empty the grave of dredgers)
    2 Jotun Grunt
    1 Student of Warfare?
    2 Honor of the pure? (pyroclasm, fish)

I think this list a a good way to start tuning and searching for improvements. More ways to connect, new card additions. Replacing something and creating a totally new synergy. I think it is all possible.

[brianpk80]

There was that earlier concern that dredge was being disregarded and I wanted to point out that Magus of the Moon is a complete house in that matchup.  They lose their Bazaars permanently and lose access to all mana that would neutralize him (which doesn't matter much anyway since Dredge protects itself mostly with anti artifact & enchantment spells like Nature's Claim and then Darkblast for small creatures).  The game can still be lost if he doesn't come out soon enough, but if he does, it's very resilient and effective dredge-hate.

Student of Warfare is the best of the aggro 1-drops, especially since it doesn't just "trade" with Golem; she kills it and then sticks around to kill more.  Late game ubermonster as well. 

Karakas is always good even if it just saves Teeg from Pyroclasm.     

I like the Crusher.  I don't think Knight of the Reliquary is needed here for all the reasons stated earlier.   

[Guli]

There was that earlier concern that dredge was being disregarded and I wanted to point out that Magus of the Moon is a complete house in that matchup.  They lose their Bazaars permanently and lose access to all mana that would neutralize him (which doesn't matter much anyway since Dredge protects itself mostly with anti artifact & enchantment spells like Nature's Claim and then Darkblast for small creatures).  The game can still be lost if he doesn't come out soon enough, but if he does, it's very resilient and effective dredge-hate.

Student of Warfare is the best of the aggro 1-drops, especially since it doesn't just "trade" with Golem; she kills it and then sticks around to kill more.  Late game ubermonster as well.  

Not to mention Teeg stops their dread return while qasali can remove bridges. Swords to plowshares is also a nice card to have to delay them. I board in all those SB cards, even the leylines to stop unmask cabal. The key is stopping bazaar in that match up we all know that.

Student of Warfare makes sense for me against the shop match up. My reasoning is like this. Even with so many basic and fetch you still need to choose what color you are getting. This deck obviously likes the white part of the deck with some green splash to fight shop. In that sense I like having plains and Student likes plains. Serenity and Qasali are your main bombs while STP can be huge as well. Magus can drop after all the good stop to stop further strip/bazaar/whatever threats.

The problem I have with this is Goblin Guide, which might have to go and make more room for Student. I usually take the risk of getting plateau turn 1 when I have GG because if they choose to strip it and not have a mox the GG did 4 damage before the game really started and I know what they are playing. With 24 lands I can afford losing my first land. And if they don't waste then the game goes on and I start dropping my 2 drops followed by Magus asap. I have been drawing into mox consistenlty though and usually my magus comes down turn 2 and I have all the basics I need on board or in my hand. It really works smoothly the mana base and Magus. That being said, most likely won't have GG and Student in opening hand anyway. Another observation i made is that i usually run of 1 plains max 2 the entire game. Sure I can get more plains if I wanted but the deck likes the rainbow configuration as stated before. Student of Warfare won't see as much plains as he would like to, that is my point. Will this make him significantly weaker? Or is this an OK way to go? In a mono white deck you would still need to cast stuff anyway and sink only the available mana to a card like student.

Without Goblin, hence opting for a more white approach, the mana base and list could change into something like this.

   2 Plains
    2 Forest
    1 Mountain
    2 Plateau
    1 Taiga
    4 Arid Mesa
    4 Windswept Heath
    4 Wooded Foothills
    1 Black Lotus
    1 Mox Ruby
    1 Mox Pearl
    1 Mox Emerald

    4 Student of Warfare
    4 Magus of the Moon
    4 Gaddock Teeg
    4 Qasali Pridemage
    3 Ethersworn Canonist
    3 Aven Mindcensor
    3 Countryside Crusher
    3 Jotun Grunt
    2 Sylvan Safekeeper

    3 Swords to Plowshares
    3 Serenity

// SB (A bit more straightforward)
    4 Leyline of Sanctity
    3 Pithing Needle
    4 Ravenous Trap
    4 Honor of the pure

Land Tax might be a possibility as well if I am opting for a lot of basics. Of course the mana base should be changed a bit more then. Works with Safekeeper and helps out preventing dead draws as well like Countryside. Also nice to get yourself some forest or plain if you played Magus super early. Anyone can come up with more tech with all these cards in mind?

[rikimaru75]

I've been toying around with a Naya (GRW) build for awhile and noticed your thread.
Instead of focusing making White the base, I feel as if I've skewed it to
be more Green heavy.  Here's my current list for comparison.


3 Windswept Heath
1 Arid Mesa
2 Savannah
2 Taiga
2 Plains
2 Forest
1 Mountain
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine

1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Pearl

2 Gorilla Shaman
4 Birds of Paradise
3 Gaddock Teeg
2 Kataki, War's Wage
4 Qasali Pridemage
3 Magus of the Moon
3 Ohran Viper
2 Bloodbraid Elf

3 Swords to Plowshares
2 Nature's Claim
2 Sylvan Library
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Ray of Revelation
3 Null Rod
3 Leyline of Sanctity

SB:
3 Lightning Bolt
2 Red Elemental Blast
2 Pithing Needle
1 Ancient Grudge
2 Serenity
3 Relic of Progenitus
2 Uktabi Orangutan

-Reason for running Birds of Paradise over Noble Hierarch is the need to get Red mana.
-Ohran Viper is a maindeck answer to a Tinker-Inkwell play.
-Sylvan Library allows you to setup your cascades with Bloodbraid Elf for maximum effect.
-Maindeck is preset to have a favorable game vs. TPS and Oath.

-I am considering on replacing the Relic of Progenitus for Ravenous Trap.  I still need some further testing.
-Stingscourger might be able to find a place and/or Tin-Street Hooligan over some of the artifact hate.

Any thoughts?

[Guli]

I've been toying around with a Naya (GRW) build for awhile and noticed your thread.
Instead of focusing making White the base, I feel as if I've skewed it to
be more Green heavy.  Here's my current list for comparison.


3 Windswept Heath
1 Arid Mesa
2 Savannah
2 Taiga
2 Plains
2 Forest
1 Mountain
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine

1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Pearl

2 Gorilla Shaman
4 Birds of Paradise
3 Gaddock Teeg
2 Kataki, War's Wage
4 Qasali Pridemage
3 Magus of the Moon
3 Ohran Viper
2 Bloodbraid Elf

3 Swords to Plowshares
2 Nature's Claim
2 Sylvan Library
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Ray of Revelation
3 Null Rod
3 Leyline of Sanctity

SB:
3 Lightning Bolt
2 Red Elemental Blast
2 Pithing Needle
1 Ancient Grudge
2 Serenity
3 Relic of Progenitus
2 Uktabi Orangutan

-Reason for running Birds of Paradise over Noble Hierarch is the need to get Red mana.
-Ohran Viper is a maindeck answer to a Tinker-Inkwell play.
-Sylvan Library allows you to setup your cascades with Bloodbraid Elf for maximum effect.
-Maindeck is preset to have a favorable game vs. TPS and Oath.

-I am considering on replacing the Relic of Progenitus for Ravenous Trap.  I still need some further testing.
-Stingscourger might be able to find a place and/or Tin-Street Hooligan over some of the artifact hate.

Any thoughts?

Very interesting card choices, and again I totally forgot about some good cards like the Viper.

Have you considered the usage of 'lifelink' to keep drawing with sylvan library? Serra Ascendant is being used by Brian's 4 color vial build and he uses City of brass as a fix. With the lifelink he keeps going. Something similar could be done for your sylvan library.

Your deck seems to have a lot of answers inside, how well can you use them when the situations pop up?

Ravenous Trap is simply amazing against dredge. But you have to follow it up with Magus or at least something to shut down Bazaar. Also having shroud is also good so you keep your answers alive against cabal or unmask.

Long time no see on the Birds of Paradise. Are you sure you really have a problem getting red mana? You are giving up exalted for this.

I appreciate your post a lot it gave me a couple of more idea's.