Leonin Arbiter

[brianpk80]

A happy day for Fish.  
 


I like it.  It's cheaper than Aven.  That matters.  If only it had protection from blue...

The more I think about it though I wonder why they would give the hate-bear a drawback that lets an opponent circumvent its effect.  Not that paying 2 to fetch and 2B to Vampiric Tutor doesn't throw off any deck's math calculations but I like my hate-bears to be outrageously strong, like Gaddock Teeg.  Definitely warrants testing.  There are a lot of really good Clerics now and he's one of them.  Time to investigate the others. 

[LotusHead]

5c shop decks search their decks way less that fish decks (we have tinker, demonic tutor, maybe some others).

I see this card in a Thorn of Amethyst/Glowrider deck.

[The Atog Lord]

I'm afraid of this guy. At five mana, Tinker hardly seems broken. After all, Acquire only sees play in EDH, despite the fact that it is Tinker against many, many decks. And paying two mana for Fetchlands would really slow down a blue deck. And if more than one of this guy arrive, things go badly quickly.

[xouman]

Aven Mindcensor is not really played around, so I'm not sure this card would be important in fish. Maybe in GW or that thorn-glowrider deck, with less need to keep mana open for a counterspell.

Are Mindcensor and Arbiter complementary or there is no place for both? Let's make a simple comparison:


Arbiter costs 1 mana less, easily playable with a mox in turn 1.
Arbiter has 2 damage points, resisting darkblast, 1/1 chumblockers...
Arbiter does not allow to search library at all, while mindcensor allow to search 4 top cards.

Mindcensor has flash, so is playable in response to a tutor, or at opponent's EOT.
Mindcensor flies, being easier to connect.
Mindcensor only applies to opponents, you can still search for cards.
Mindcensor has a real lock, with arbiter anyone can pay to tutor effectively.


We don't want these against MUD or Dredge. They have little impact against fish, and the main objectives are drain decks. With those cards fetches get worse and Jace is hard to cast, not to speak about demonic, vampiric, consultation, mystical, tinker, tezz, merchant...

Maybe it is not the best moment to deny tutors due to heavy MUD metagame, but could be nice in case another deck like flash gets dominant.

[beder]

Hum, this guy is interesting for sure but I don't know if it will be good enough to deserve slots in fish.

When compared to aven mindcensor, that does not see a lot of play in vintage :

- Does the"not being able to search at all if not paying 2CC" is better than the non conditionnal "being able to search only the 4 first cards".
- Does the " less to cast it and 2/2" is sufficent to counterbalance the loss of "flash, flying effect" and the fact that it applies to all players

Well, hard to say without testings...

[serracollector]

turn 1 Arbiter
turn 2 crucible with Ghost Quarter = gg?
9 strip deck is coming.
I heard null Rod is good to.

On average this stops 6-8 fetch's, vamp, seal, myst, dt, scroll, intuition, entomb, tinker, tezz, trinket mage, and it rarer cases enlightened tutor/land tax/stoneforge mystic  and makes ghost quarter a strip mine. Thats like 1/4 of most control decks, including massive mana denial.
Yes they can cast them for 2 extra mana, If they have the mana.
Makes yawgmoth wins harder since if they are casting a tutor twice they have to pay 4 extra mana, the same mana needed for that tendrils?

Simply put I think this guy is beastly, and that the flash and flying do not make mindcensor better.  This card simply DENIES sac and search lands until they get 2 lands already or 2 moxen, and is easily castable turn 1.  Him + Sphere's is even sicker.

Would be cool to see a white MUD variant form.  Go treasure hunter  lol

[Troy_Costisick]

Another good Hatebear to throw on the pile.  Like Cannonist or Stingscourger, he'll get pulled out for play when the moment is right.

[Guli]

[madmanmike25]

I want to know if multiples of this guy stack.  If two of these are out would you be forced to pay 4 extra mana to search?  Wording seems a tad ambiguous.

Finally a card that hurts Tinker and costs 1 less to play.  In conjunction with Aven, a player would be forced to pay 2 mana to search the top 4 cards.  Good luck with that Tinker/DT.

Would Supression Field be of any use I wonder?  Thats 4 mana to use a fetchland if both Arbiter and Field are in play.

[Troy_Costisick]

The problem I always had with Supression Field was that my opponent could always get one or two fetchlands activated before it comes out.  This new cat offers some support for it.  Is it possible all this could work in a Parfait shell?  Think about it:

Tariff
StP
Cannonist
Arbiter
Supression Field
Glowrider
Seal of Cleansing
Aura of Silence
Land Tax
Rule of Law
Ghostly Prison
Enlightend Tutor
Agrivian Find
Jotun Grunt

Somewhere in all that has to be a decent mono-white deck, right?

Peace,

-Troy

[meadbert]

Seems good with Ghost Quarters, Wastes and Strips.

Basically you deny mana preventing them from paying the 2 while you Strip lock them.

I could see this in a Vinelasher Kudzu type deck.

[zimagic]

Seems good with Ghost Quarters, Wastes and Strips.

Basically you deny mana preventing them from paying the 2 while you Strip lock them.

I could see this in a Vinelasher Kudzu type deck.

I was thinking similiar a sort of W/G Mana denial Null Rod Aggro strategy with this and Gaddok/Pridemate & beats....

Seems weak now that I start listing cards.

[brianpk80]

I wonder if that Maralen of the Mournsong (or whatever that evil elf from Lorwyn block was called) merits testing now. 

As for the Aven comparisons, the difference is huge.  Aven's biggest problem was that he came down too late.  This has a better chance of eschewing that.   

[Stormanimagus]

I wonder if that Maralen of the Mournsong (or whatever that evil elf from Lorwyn block was called) merits testing now. 

As for the Aven comparisons, the difference is huge.  Aven's biggest problem was that he came down too late.  This has a better chance of eschewing that.   

That, and Aven didn't always STOP the search. The best use of Aven was often trying to make him a Wasteland effect on a Fetch, and, more often than not the opponent would simply find a land in the top 4. This guy assures that they must pay 2 for the fetch. I think this guy is far better at doing what you want him to do than Aven.

-Storm

[Bill Copes]

This is the most exciting card that's been revealed so far. It might actually make a white prison deck playable. . . Tier 1.5.

[nineisnoone]

I want to know if multiples of this guy stack.  If two of these are out would you be forced to pay 4 extra mana to search?  Wording seems a tad ambiguous.

Finally a card that hurts Tinker and costs 1 less to play.  In conjunction with Aven, a player would be forced to pay 2 mana to search the top 4 cards.  Good luck with that Tinker/DT.

Would Supression Field be of any use I wonder?  Thats 4 mana to use a fetchland if both Arbiter and Field are in play.

There is no reason why it shouldn't stack.  They are separate abilities.  It's not like paying would enable you to do something, it's just stopping a power that's preventing you from doing something.  So if there are two, play two.  So yeah, another reason it's better than Aven.

I need to dust off my /WRists deck.  (it was originally black/white, so suicide black/white, /wrists, but then i realized red would be better...)

Just run shock lands instead of fetch lands + simian spirit guide.  Suppression Field, Null Rod, Leonin Arbiter, Ethersworn Cannonist at the two drops.  REB and Bolt at the one drop.  Maybe even run Boom/Bust and Flagstones of Trokair. 

[RecklessEmbermage]

The biggest drawback and most intrigueing feature of this guy is that he shuts off your own fetches. Meaning that if it becomes playable, it will likely create a new archetype (or sub-archetype or whatever you call it). 9 strips and 8 guys that stop searching is a fine place to start.

If this deck aims to waste most every turn, the curve must be low. A good 1cc win condition would be a huge boon. What is the best we got? 2/2? 2/3? Black vise?

[meadbert]

Greater Gargadon?  You could at least sac fetches to him.

Remember you can just pay 2 to get around the search ability.

[Rico Suave]

This card is incredible.

For those of you comparing Aven Mindcensor to this new card, let me highlight one particular detail:

Aven Mindcensor costs 50% more. 

Would you still be driving the same car if it cost 50% more? 

[brianpk80]

The biggest drawback and most intrigueing feature of this guy is that he shuts off your own fetches. Meaning that if it becomes playable, it will likely create a new archetype (or sub-archetype or whatever you call it). 9 strips and 8 guys that stop searching is a fine place to start.

If this deck aims to waste most every turn, the curve must be low. A good 1cc win condition would be a huge boon. What is the best we got? 2/2? 2/3? Black vise?

Student of Warfare is the best 1 drop kill in white.  It helps with matches where the Leonin isn't as strong, like MUD. 

If they print a card now with a relevant ability that says, "whenever a Cat damages a player, that player (suffers something horrible)" I might look at it seriously.  Cat Wizard and Cat Cleric FTW. 

[serracollector]

I was testing the idea of

4 x Arbiter
4 x Mindcensor
4 x Glowrider
4 x Suppresion Field

and the problem I was having was suppression field also makes your wastes, strips, and ghost quarters cost 2 to activate.

I replaced Suppresion field with Aura of Silence.

Between Aura, Null Rod, 8 search deniers, and 9 strips, the deck hasn't been doing badly at all.

I hope they make another white Stick with relevant power in this set.

[Troy_Costisick]

Moonglow

Do you mean Moonhold?

[Wagner]

Moonglow

Do you mean Moonhold?

Pretty sure he meant Glowrider.... still pretty far-fetched.

[madmanmike25]

If they print a card now with a relevant ability that says, "whenever a Cat damages a player, that player (suffers something horrible)" I might look at it seriously.

Feline AIDS is pretty horrible.

[AmbivalentDuck]

I wonder if that Maralen of the Mournsong (or whatever that evil elf from Lorwyn block was called) merits testing now.

Even with a dedicated mana denial strategy, the opponent can always open with Mox, Sol Ring, ignore your deck.

I'm wondering if this just made white Suppresion Stax viable.  Fish's ability to gain control of a game is too dicey on the opening.

[brianpk80]

If they print a card now with a relevant ability that says, "whenever a Cat damages a player, that player (suffers something horrible)" I might look at it seriously.

Feline AIDS is pretty horrible.

!!! That is true and feline leukemia is contagious among cats, I think?

Feline Leukemia
B
Enchantment
Whenever a Cat blocks or is blocked by a Cat, destroy both Cats.

I wonder if that Maralen of the Mournsong (or whatever that evil elf from Lorwyn block was called) merits testing now.

Even with a dedicated mana denial strategy, the opponent can always open with Mox, Sol Ring, ignore your deck.

Truth.  But the Maralen thing is a different idea.  The evil elf has one of the strongest effects in the game "players can't draw cards" but it lets everyone Vampiric tutor each turn for 3 life.  That means the Arbiter makes Maralen a mini-Possessed Portal.  Arbiter is pretty good on its own.  Maralen has some uses as well on its own like stopping the Dredge mechanic.  There might be a deck environment where something like that works.  I'm not sure, but am curious.     

[MaximumCDawg]

If they print a card now with a relevant ability that says, "whenever a Cat damages a player, that player (suffers something horrible)" I might look at it seriously.

Feline AIDS is pretty horrible.

!!! That is true and feline leukemia is contagious among cats, I think?

Feline Leukemia
B
Enchantment
Whenever a Cat blocks or is blocked by a Cat, destroy both Cats.

Incorrect.  The correct answer is:

Feline Leukemia
B
All cats get AIDS.  No one cares.  They are cats.

Anyway...

I can see where a CatBird.dec featuring mindcensor and arbiter does pretty well against Tezz builds, but I have a hard time seeing how it stands up against MUD, Fish, or Dredge.  That's a pretty big part of the metagame to simply ignore.  The big problem for CatBird.dec would appear to be that its core disruption doesn't do anything against these decks.  In contrast to the other well-performing fish builds like Noble Fish or Christmas Beats, where the core is artifact destruction.  Yes, yes, I know that CatBird.dec would be focused on non-basic disruption, but that only slows down the aggro deck family so much.  

I'm not totally speaking without experience here.  I tried out GW beats for several weeks in a row at sanctioned vintage.  I found that I crushed combo decks (1st turn gaddok teeg vs. belcher or storm? gg)  but was decimated by decks that turned creatures sideways to attack, because I had a bunch of hatebears with nothing to hate on.  

So, this is worth trying, but unlike Noble Fish, CatBird.dec has no natural way to overwhelm other creatures.  So I don't see it doing too well.  Even more succinctly: how many Fish decks have you played where you would have won if ONLY the enemy could not tutor?

[Wagner]

CatBird.dec

Hmm, I'm pretty sure that wouldn't work.

Wouldn't the cats just eat your birds?

[brianpk80]

Incorrect.  The correct answer is:

Feline Leukemia
B
All cats get AIDS.  No one cares.  They are cats.

Wicked!!!

Anyway...

I can see where a CatBird.dec featuring mindcensor and arbiter does pretty well against Tezz builds, but I have a hard time seeing how it stands up against MUD, Fish, or Dredge.  That's a pretty big part of the metagame to simply ignore.  The big problem for CatBird.dec would appear to be that its core disruption doesn't do anything against these decks.  In contrast to the other well-performing fish builds like Noble Fish or Christmas Beats, where the core is artifact destruction.  Yes, yes, I know that CatBird.dec would be focused on non-basic disruption, but that only slows down the aggro deck family so much.  

I'm not totally speaking without experience here.  I tried out GW beats for several weeks in a row at sanctioned vintage.  I found that I crushed combo decks (1st turn gaddok teeg vs. belcher or storm? gg)  but was decimated by decks that turned creatures sideways to attack, because I had a bunch of hatebears with nothing to hate on.  

So, this is worth trying, but unlike Noble Fish, CatBird.dec has no natural way to overwhelm other creatures.  So I don't see it doing too well.  Even more succinctly: how many Fish decks have you played where you would have won if ONLY the enemy could not tutor?

Good points.  I wouldn't run the Bird, just the Cats.  And to clarify, the Cats are Leonin Arbiter and Qasali Pridemage.  Green splash for artifact hate and Teeg.  Kataki as another hate-bear.  Huge suite of Wastes, Ghosts, and Strip.  Aura, Seal, Student, Jotun.  Just brainstorming here.  Will have to see the rest of the set to determine if there's a Cat Lord with an ability relevant to Vintage. 

[urweak]

Its an interesting card. But for 2 you just ignore the effect till EOT. It would be FAR better if it was each search effect you had to pay 2 (which I am getting the feeling that some people are mistaking this for).

Some mono white build with this guy, Kataki, Suppression Field, The new white leyline, and a bunch of other white spells might make for a good deck. Karakas too maybe?