[SCD] Precursor Golem

[Lemnear]

anyway ...  Rack&Ruin whipes the board if there's a P. Golem on the field...

[Troy_Costisick]

anyway ...  Rack&Ruin whipes the board if there's a P. Golem on the field...

That's a big negatory, good buddy.  Read the card again.

[BruiZar]

Ancient Grudge however, pwns your golemz

[Killane]

This card is pretty good as a sideboard card against MUD in a classic control style deck.  It effectively kills there next 3 golems and they have no instants or sorceries to copy. 

Scratch that it can kill allot more than their next 3.  It can kill all their golems.

Whoa, you're right.  If affects all golems, not just your own.  That's a little different from what we've seen lately.  Maybe it *does* just reference the tokens.

It doesn't. It clearly references all Golems, which woudl include both golem creatures and Tribal Golem non-creature permanents. There is no other possible correct interpritation of the wording. If it was referencing the tokens only, it would need some distinction to distinguish them from other Golem permanents.

A good example of this can be seen in Scion of Oona (this is the relevant Oracle text only):

Other Faerie creatures you control get +1/+1.
Other Faeries you control have shroud. (A permanent with shroud can't be the target of spells or abilities.)

note the distinction between the 1st and 2nd lines.

[Lemnear]

anyway ...  Rack&Ruin whipes the board if there's a P. Golem on the field...

That's a big negatory, good buddy.  Read the card again.

Arg ... nothing to see, move on  

[Delha]

[quote author=Troy_Costisick link=topic=41191.msg572117#msg572117 date=
Whoa, you're right.  If affects all golems, not just your own.  That's a little different from what we've seen lately.  Maybe it *does* just reference the tokens.

It doesn't. It clearly references all Golems, which woudl include both golem creatures and Tribal Golem non-creature permanents...[/quote]
Also, Anusien explicitly went over this already.

[liontruth]

I really love this card, 5cc for 3 3/3s is sick.

I bet this would really impact the design of Aggro MUD.

[serracollector]

Does P.Golem then essentially turn Shadow Rift and Leap into Ancestral Recalls?  That could be like...really good?

@below: Broken Much?

[BruiZar]

Yes.

[LotusHead]

Who found the word "Precursor" in a thesaurus, then got it onto a magic card?

[Aace]

Does P.Golem then essentially turn Shadow Rift and Leap into Ancestral Recalls?  That could be like...really good?

Well, you want a card that's good on its own, not a card that makes you play other crappy cards in your deck.

[serracollector]

Shadow rift on a percursor Golem is 12 damage, nigh unblockable, and an ancestral.  I have read everyones arguments, but am not sure myself yet, but if this does affect all golems, then shaodw rift + precursor + lodestone = 19 damage, and 4 cards for 1 mana.   This does not seem bad to me.

[Blue Lotus]

Shadow rift on a percursor Golem is 12 damage, nigh unblockable, and an ancestral.  I have read everyones arguments, but am not sure myself yet, but if this does affect all golems, then shaodw rift + precursor + lodestone = 19 damage, and 4 cards for 1 mana.   This does not seem bad to me.

That would be the definition of win more.

[Klep]

Does P.Golem then essentially turn Shadow Rift and Leap into Ancestral Recalls?  That could be like...really good?

@below: Broken Much?

Or I could play Vault-Key and have a two card combo that just wins the game right then.

[serracollector]

And I could have a leyline and helm, or a painter and a grindstone, or a vampire and dark depth's, or an oath and forbidden orchard, or a mishra's workshop and an artifact, or bazaar and a dredger.  Yea I guess you could find a 2 card win in t1, who would of thunk.  I am glad that your statement was completely relevant to my post.  Sorry for throwing out an idea, unless it mentions the aforementioned cards above, I won't talk about it anymore.

I hate people like you.  Bring something to the conversation or nothing.  I don't care about your vault Key.

[Diakonov]

As cool as the combo is, I'd be surprised if it ended up actually being worth it to run something random like Shadow Rift in your deck.  Sure, if they don't have removal, it seals the game the turn after you play Precursor.  That would really be its only use, though, and by they time you are swinging for 9 with Precursor I would think it's safe to say that it's probably too much of a win-more.

[BruiZar]

I´m sure Shadow Rift was only an example. The best use for Golem would be if you´d already use a targeted card that cantrips. You don´t run instants because of golem, you play with instants because they´re good, and you should play with golem because its good (up for debate). If they´re nuts and win more together, then there is nothing wrong with winning more as long as it wins you the game a turn faster or if it assures the win even more.

The whole win more argument is flawed.

If I have a 25% chance to win the game, I´d like to win more and increase my chance to 75% or 90%. If I have a 4 turn clock, I´d like to close the window of opportunity of my opponent by using a ´win more´ card that increases my clock with 2 or 3 turns. While you guys are winning 25%, I´d rather shoot for 100%.

If it only speeds the clock up with one turn, its too conditional and time walk is better.

If it speeds the clock up by multiple turns, it´s worth evaluating whether a conditional time walk is good enough.

[dangerlinto]

Shadow rift on a percursor Golem is 12 damage, nigh unblockable, and an ancestral.  I have read everyones arguments, but am not sure myself yet, but if this does affect all golems, then shaodw rift + precursor + lodestone = 19 damage, and 4 cards for 1 mana.   This does not seem bad to me.

Except of course, with Lodestone out, it would cost 2 mana...

I expect there might be a better combo out there, but I can't see it.

[Bongo]

I think this discussion is on the wrong track. The relevant question would be: How can I prevent targeted removal on Precursor Golem?

Because if it doesn't get removed, this is the quickest clock available to Shops. Even if it gets removed by a Nature's Claim or something, it's still a 1-for-1 trade unless you have Lodestone out. I like it that it gives you the option of outracing Trygon Predator. So naturally, the next logical question would be:

Is Precursor Golem better in a MUD shell with Chalice=1 or in Red-Shops with Welder (where Chalice=1 is also a possibility, but more dangerous)?

[sassfactor4]

Nature's claim is a pretty sweet deal against an aggro deck as it gives you back 12 life

Isn't trygon more dangerous as it takes out all the golems now?

[Xequecal]

Trygon is not an instant or sorcery, the effect isn't copied.

As far as comboing, you could Repeal one of the tokens for U and get two cards for the two 3/3 tokens. And Repeal is not a card that sucks without having a Golem around.

[serracollector]

If your looking for a way to protect your artifacts, I have always been interested in (but not been successful yet) of running a version with white using Hannah's Custody and Armeggedon.  Null Rod + Precursor + Geddon is still a pretty good position to be in.  Who knows with Glowrider and Arbiter and Ethersword Cannonist some form of white MUD may be viable.  Question, as always, is wat to drop right?

[dangerlinto]

If your looking for a way to protect your artifacts, I have always been interested in (but not been successful yet) of running a version with white using Hannah's Custody and Armeggedon...

Indomitable Archangel  2WW
Creature
Flying
Metalcraft - Artifacts you control have shroud as long as you control three or more artifacts.
4/4

^^^ This has the benefit of being just a fine beater as well as not being a target itself for Claim or Trygon.


Though I have no idea what giving all your artifacts shroud has to do with using Armageddon...

[serracollector]

Just the synergy bettween Null Rod Lodestones, sphere, and armegedon since your playing white.  I dono, "win more card" or w/e ppl say i spose.  But that angel is nice if you going with a white build, and  mox Opal helps fill that WW restraint.

Another funny thing is that a Tainted Strike on Precursor Golem is 9 poison counters.  Go shadowrift/Tainted Strike/Precursor Golem combo.   PreTaintedRift.dec lol

[tito del monte]

@Serracollector: I noticed this 'combo' in the various sealed deck simulators online... anyway - it hink it would actually be 12 poison counters and a win,as they get +1/+0 as well

[HAB]

Shadow rift on a percursor Golem is 12 damage, nigh unblockable, and an ancestral.  I have read everyones arguments, but am not sure myself yet, but if this does affect all golems, then shaodw rift + precursor + lodestone = 19 damage, and 4 cards for 1 mana.   This does not seem bad to me.

Precursor Golem

Artifact Creature -- Golem
3/3
When Precursor Golem enters the battlefield, put two 3/3 colorless Golem artifact creature tokens onto the battlefield.
Whenever a player casts an instant or sorcery spell that targets only a single Golem, that player copies that spell for each other Golem that spell could target. Each copy targets a different one of those Golems.

* The second ability triggers whenever a player casts an instant or sorcery spell that targets only one Golem. That Golem can be Precursor Golem itself, one of the Golem tokens it created, or any other Golem. It doesn't matter who controls the Golem.

From the SOM FAQ:  http://www.wizards.com/dci/downloads/EN_MTGSOM_FAQ_20100922.rtf

[Troy_Costisick]

Shadow rift on a percursor Golem is 12 damage, nigh unblockable, and an ancestral.  I have read everyones arguments, but am not sure myself yet, but if this does affect all golems, then shaodw rift + precursor + lodestone = 19 damage, and 4 cards for 1 mana.   This does not seem bad to me.

Precursor Golem

Artifact Creature -- Golem
3/3
When Precursor Golem enters the battlefield, put two 3/3 colorless Golem artifact creature tokens onto the battlefield.
Whenever a player casts an instant or sorcery spell that targets only a single Golem, that player copies that spell for each other Golem that spell could target. Each copy targets a different one of those Golems.

* The second ability triggers whenever a player casts an instant or sorcery spell that targets only one Golem. That Golem can be Precursor Golem itself, one of the Golem tokens it created, or any other Golem. It doesn't matter who controls the Golem.

From the SOM FAQ:  http://www.wizards.com/dci/downloads/EN_MTGSOM_FAQ_20100922.rtf

Nice find!  Thanks for posting that.  He's risky to run if you're also using Lodestone Golem.  One nature's claim or ancient grudge can ruin your day.  I love him in the mirror, but anywhere else, he's a huge risk IMHO.

[SiegeX]

Do the copies resolve first or the original?  I think when something triggers during casting, the trigger is delayed until the original is put onto the stack and then the copies go on top of that but I'm not 100% sure on this.

[Killane]

Do the copies resolve first or the original?  I think when something triggers during casting, the trigger is delayed until the original is put onto the stack and then the copies go on top of that but I'm not 100% sure on this.

The copies resolve first. The spell is put onto the stack in the act of casting it, which creates a trigger. When the trigger resolves (which is on the stack on top of the original spell), the copies then go on the stack, still above the original spell. You have to go through the enitre process of casting the spell before the trigger goes onto the stack (not just announcement).