Grow-A-Tog

[honestabe]

So what's the new tog going to look like?
Here's what I whipped up on MWS deckbuilder
4 Underground Sea
3 Tropical Island
2 Island
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Polluted Delta

Mox Emerald
Mox Jet
Mox Sapphire
Black Lotus

4 Goyf
1 Tog

4 Preordain
1 Ponder
1 Time Walk
1 Yawg's Will
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Imperial Seal
1 Regrowth
4 Thoughtseize
2 Duress
1 Merchant Scroll

4 Force of Will
2 Misdirection
4 Motherfucking Gush
1 Repeal
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Brainstorm
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Echoing Truth
1 Hurkyls Recall
2 Frantic Search

1 Fastbond




2 Island
1 Forest
3 Natures Claim
3 Yixlid Jailer
1 Tormods
2 Relic of Progenitals
2 Smother 
1 Hurkyls Recall


It's been pretty solid in the few games I've been able to test.  Since we dont have Brainstorms, I've been using Frantic Search as a way to filter out extra lands, and it's worked well.  I actually wanted a Tendrils in practice much more than I thought I would.  I also don't know if smother is the card I want for the board, but it kills just about every fish creature, as well as Bob (if tezzeret will still end up playing it...).

I also chose to run goyf over dryad because getting a Dryad bounced by Jace would just be awful, and Goyf is stronger against shops, which, lets be honest is still the best deck in the format.

[Troy_Costisick]

Hm.  Should we call the deck GAG (Grow-a-Goyf) instead now?

Rather than try to show-horn in Frantic Search, would it not be better to just go the full Monty and play 8 Duress?  Or, if you really want more card filtering, there's always Strategic Planning.  I really don't think FS fits in a Gush deck.  Gush decks like to be light on mana base, and at 3 mana, FS is a little above the curve.  This is historically speaking, of course.  Things could be different now.

Peace,

-Troy

[honestabe]

When I was writing the list, I did not think that search would be good at all, but decided it was worth at least trying out 2.  What I found was that without 4 Brainstorm and 4 Ponder, you really can't prevent yourself from drawing more than 2 lands, and I was surprisingly able to cast it every game.  It provided a spot to put the extra lands and conditional cards and also also helped dig for and fuel those Fastbond inspired Yawg Wills we all love so much.  Is it the optimal card?  I'm not sure yet, the extra duress or spell pierce or even sleight of hand may be better, but with the limited testing I've had, Search has been a pleasant surprise.  As far as strategic planning goes, it only gets 3 cards deep and doesn't filter the crap you've already drawn.  I think I'd run Impulse or Slight of Hand before Planning, as they are also instants.

Also, It can still be GAT  (Grow-A-Tarmogoyf)

[Troy_Costisick]

What I found was that without 4 Brainstorm and 4 Ponder, you really can't prevent yourself from drawing more than 2 lands, and I was surprisingly able to cast it every game.

What were you playing against?  I would imagine playing a 3 mana card against MUD would be extremely difficult.

Also, It can still be GAT  (Grow-A-Tarmogoyf)

True.  But that's not nearly as humorous.

[honestabe]

What I found was that without 4 Brainstorm and 4 Ponder, you really can't prevent yourself from drawing more than 2 lands, and I was surprisingly able to cast it every game.

What were you playing against?  I would imagine playing a 3 mana card against MUD would be extremely difficult.

Also, It can still be GAT  (Grow-A-Tarmogoyf)

True.  But that's not nearly as humorous.

I played against Ubr Tezz and Snake City Vault, both of which got curbstomped by 4 Gushes.  I also played against Storm and Elves! both of which...also got curbstomped by 4 Gushes

[zeus-online]

.

[Bill Copes]

I'm waiting for someone to advent the Lotus Cobra gush deck.

[vassago]

I'm waiting for someone to advent the Lotus Cobra gush deck.

oh shit son!

[silvernail]

I'd likely run goyf sideboard and instead run lotus cobras. Then I'd cut a FS for a Tendrils and cut the second misdirection for a necropotence. That would be a start for cobra gush.

[Troy_Costisick]

How'd I miss this?  You need to add Tinker and a Bot.  If not in the main, then definately in the SB.

[honestabe]

Played a few more games.  Frantic Search really helps chain together gushes, and facilitates a "Mini combo"  However, I think its just too win-more.  I think I'll make them a Berserk and Slight of Hand.

Edit:  You just posted, so let me update this
Tinker with only 3 stable artifacts seems bad =/

[Hayek]

Have you played any games versus MUD yet?  I guess Tarmogoyf helps, but it still seems like multiple sphere effects might give you problems.

Have you considered adding another creature to combat Shops?  No idea what you'd want here; Trygon Predator is sort of costly when your main draw engine requires you to return lands to your hand and you only have three moxes, and Dark Confidant is sort of scary with ten cards that cost five mana (although by my count, you're still only doing about 1.6 damage to yourself on average per turn) + fastbond.  Alternatively, you might try playing more bounce.

[Neonico]

Is duress really better than Spellpierce in this shell ? I really don't think so, your disrupt suite should be 3-4 spellpierce, 4 Thoughtseize, 4 FoW, 1-2 misdirections

Also :

I also chose to run goyf over dryad because getting a Dryad bounced by Jace would just be awful, and Goyf is stronger against shops, which, lets be honest is still the best deck in the format.

What about 4 colour with maindeck Ancient Grudges and Klin Fiend as your kill ?

[Neonico]

I also chose to run goyf over dryad because getting a Dryad bounced by Jace would just be awful, and Goyf is stronger against shops, which, lets be honest is still the best deck in the format.

What about 4 colour with maindeck Ancient Grudges and Klin Fiend as your kill ?

[Vegeta2711]

Hey guys, what about just reading what was actually good in the past instead of making up really bad 'new versions' of decks that already got rebuilt 7,000 times in the past?

[Stormanimagus]

Noah’s Cobra-Gush

Land (15):
3 Misty Rainforest
3 Polluted Delta
2 Verdant Catacombs
2 Tropical Island
1 Underground Sea
1 Bayou
1 Island
1 Forest
1 Swamp

Artifacts (9):
1 Black Lotus
1 Lotus Petal
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Pearl
1 Time Vault
1 Voltaic Key

Artifact Creatures (1):
1 Inkwell Leviathan

Creatures (4):
4 Lotus Cobra

Instants (19):
4 Force Of Will
4 Gush
4 Spell Pierce
2 Nature’s Claim
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Brainstorm
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Hurkyl’s Recall

Sorceries (10):
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Ponder
2 Preordain
1 Merchant Scroll
1 Regrowth
1 Time Walk
1 Tinker
1 Yawgmoth’s Will
1 Tendrils Of Agony

Enchantments (2):
1 Fastbond
1 Necropotence

SB
4 Leyline Of The Void
3 Duress
2 Mindbreak Trap
3 Pithing Needle
1 Virtue's Ruin
1 Nature’s Claim
1 Darkblast



I might start with something like this and then go from there. Not sure if this should have Jace, but I'm pretty sure it shouldn't have Confidant and once you cut Confidant then Jace makes less sense in my mind.

-Storm

[Blue Lotus]

Hey guys, what about just reading what was actually good in the past instead of making up really bad 'new versions' of decks that already got rebuilt 7,000 times in the past?

Because that would make sense.

[Kiriyuu]

Here is the version I came up with when I saw the announcment:

4 Quirion Dryad
1 Psycatog
4 Gush
4 Preordain
1 Ponder
1 Brainstorm
1 Ancestral Recall
4 Force of Will
4 Duress
4 thoughtseize
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Imperial Seal
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Fastbond
1 Echoing Truth
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Hurkyl's rebuild
1 Merchant scroll

1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Sapphire
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Polluted Delta
3 Tropical Island
3 Underground Sea
1 Island
1 Forest
1 Swamp


SB:

3 Trygon preditor
4 Nature's Claim
4 Leyline of the void
1 Tinker
1 Inkwell Leviathan
2 Yixlid jailer

Zero testing, or real thought, but hey.

Sorry dude, but this is basically spam.  At least lie and say you tested it like everyone else.  -BrassMan

[Kiriyuu]

Here is the version I came up with when I saw the announcment:

4 Quirion Dryad
1 Psycatog
4 Gush
4 Preordain
1 Ponder
1 Brainstorm
1 Ancestral Recall
4 Force of Will
4 Duress
4 thoughtseize
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Imperial Seal
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Fastbond
1 Echoing Truth
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Hurkyl's rebuild
1 Merchant scroll

1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Sapphire
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Polluted Delta
3 Tropical Island
3 Underground Sea
1 Island
1 Forest
1 Swamp


SB:

3 Trygon preditor
4 Nature's Claim
4 Leyline of the void
1 Tinker
1 Inkwell Leviathan
2 Yixlid jailer

Zero testing, or real thought, but hey.

Sorry dude, but this is basically spam.  At least lie and say you tested it like everyone else.  -BrassMan

Whoa whoa, it's spam? Isn't this a discussion thread?

Anyway:

"I've tested this list a lot and put much thought into it?"

Better now?

O_o

Really?

Welcome to TMD - BrassMan

Okay, well come to think of it you have a point, as I somehow ommited Time walk. Haha.

But the theory is sound. : P

[Cane1024]

As someone with multiple top 8's and some tourney wins with Gat, I will add my input here as some of the things I've read in this thread have been very difficult for me to stomach, sorry guys. Like Vegeta said you have to start with what has won in the past.
They're are a ton of builds that have been successful but me and ELD ran a very aggressive build of GAT that ran 4 Dryad and a tog with wish, 0 goyfs, 4 durress and 4 MisD with 8 BS/Ponder. The deck design was for us to play our spells without worry of tapping out. This is truly the nature of GAT. Free draw spells and counters, and cheap spells that you hard cast. Our Stax matchup was unfavorable 1st game but we would bring in 2 volcanics with chewers, grudges and needles and end up with the favor in games 2 and 3. Note: i rarely lost to stax back then, but that was before lodestone golem, and the mirror was in our favor.
Others have had success with other builds of Gat but the core remains the same.
We need to focus here not on your disruption suite or creatures but on what we have lost. That is 3 Merchant Scroll, 3 Brainstorms and 3 ponders.
I figure That the latter is much easier to replace. Perhaps 4 Preordain and 2 slieght of hand. Maybe opt as well.
Merchant scroll was truly the blow which is very difficult to revive from. What is on our side here though is that the format is much slower than back than with decks like flash.
I would consider replacing those 3 MS's with cards like imperial seal, regrowth, or perhaps impulse.

[gamegeek2]

3 Polluted Delta
3 Misty Rainforest
3 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
2 Volcanic Island
1 Island
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Emerald
1 Black Lotus

3 Quirion Dryad
2 Tarmogoyf
1 Inkwell Leviathan
1 Voltaic Key
1 Time Vault
1 Tinker

4 Gush
4 Preordain
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Brainstorm
1 Ponder
1 Merchant Scroll
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Fastbond
1 Lightning Bolt
1 Nature's Claim
4 Force of Will
4 Spell Pierce
3 Duress
2 Thoughtseize
1 Regrowth


Since someone was just told not to post decklists standing alone, and you did just that, I'm going to give you a verbal warning.  Please explain your card choices, plan for the deck, desired feedback, or some reason why this decklist was posted.  -DA

[Hayek]

nevermind

[gamegeek2]

Updated List, with corrected post.

Apologies, I was on short notice and had to get back to class, I could not offer an explanation.

3 Polluted Delta
3 Scalding Tarn
3 Underground Sea
3 Tropical Island
1 Volcanic Island
1 Island
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Emerald
1 Black Lotus

3 Quirion Dryad
2 Tarmogoyf
1 Inkwell Leviathan
1 Voltaic Key
1 Time Vault
1 Tinker

4 Gush
4 Preordain
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Brainstorm
1 Ponder
1 Merchant Scroll
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Fastbond
1 Lightning Bolt
1 Nature's Claim
4 Force of Will
3 Spell Pierce
2 Duress
3 Thoughtseize
1 Time Walk

General Features
1. Tinker/VaultKey/Leviathan. Tinker is a huge trump card against most decks; with slower Trygon Tezz decks now the norm, Leviathan is comparatively more effective. It trumps Jace. VaultKey, I feel, is superior to Storm in this deck because it is not as consistent of a broken deck as previous iterations have been.
Red - Having red is an advantage for several reasons, IMO.

1. Access to lightning bolt. While it probably won't be good against other Gush decks, killing Mind Sculptor, Bob, Cobra, Lodestone, Trygon, and other random creatures. I play one in the main here, and would probably sideboard one more.
2. Access to Red Blasts, a clear advantage in Blue mirrors
3. Potential access to Rack and Ruin - I'm not sure about this one, it may be too slow - but it's a devastating bomb against MUD. I would sideboard in 1 more Volcanic Island against MUD and Fish, to help against Wasteland.

The sacrifice in the manabase isn't much, as your manabase is already light. The slots that are cut would have been basics which, while valuable to have, are not an advantage against most blue decks.

Questions

1. What should be in the sideboard? I think 4 Leylines and 1 Nature's claim at least, but more things would definitely go in. What should they be?
2. Regrowth. Is it worth it, over another Duress?
3. Mystical Tutor. Again, would be a nice inclusion, but what to cut?

[marilyn_manson]

Hi, My first post here so do bear with me should it sounds unintelligent.
I used to play GAT before I quit (2008 restrictions) but hey, gush is back.
some questions:

1. I notice lotus petal and mana crypt were not included. Isn't T1 quirion dryad still strong? And for case of mana crypt, should it merit a slot with so many spell pierces running around?

2. Unless I remember wrongly, GAT used to run less than 20 mana source but with heavier shop meta will upping to 22 be right? (5 mox 1 sol 1 crypt 1 petal 1 lotus 13 lands)

3. Duress vs spell pierce:
   a. With duress, we have to fetch for U.sea on T1. But, we gained info should it       resolve (which I find it important for GAT)
   b. with spell pierce, we can fetch T1 island.

I find GAT to be very nice and fun deck to play and really glad that it has chance to be back. Thanks all for the time.

[gamegeek2]

The historical merits of Gro included that it had a higher business spell count, compared with Drains that run 24-25 mana sources. I'd rather side in one or two more lands, rather than lose this edge against many other decks.

[V is for Vintage]

Just an observation

With Current sideboard cards, doesn't this deck slow down quite a bit?

Opponents can bring in dredge hate against the tog and goyf

They can Bring in Nature's claims and tezz hate to stop the key/vault, along with Rebs

They can Bring in Perish (fish hate) to stop dryad and goyf

So that means that the average blue sideboard can board in more than half of their board. am I wrong on this?

[TheBrassMan]

You're not wrong, but those cards aren't necessarily very good here.  Historically a player who brought in 8 or so one-for ones would get brutally outdrawn or combo'd out (and I assure you, there were lots of people who brought in 8 or so one-for-ones). 

Maindeck Nature's Claim hitting Fastbond could be another story, as nothing like that was present before - so we'll have to see about that- but Swords/Perish/Tormod's style cards have all been used in large numbers, and not terribly effectively

[gamegeek2]

If I understand correctly, in Vintage threats tend to be rather small in number, and are thus dealt with by a limited number of answers. The exceptions tend to be Fish and Workshops - in workshops, while most of their cards aren't threats per se, they threaten a lock quickly if you don't stop them - and fish hatebears beat down.

Answers, thus, tend to be either massively devastating or highly efficient. Energy Flux and Perish fall into the former category; Force of Will and Nature's Claim, the latter. Non-counterspell answers tend to be inferior, because of the presence of Ancestral Recall and Yawgmoth's Will, which obviously can't be stopped by a Lightning Bolt. And even devastating answers must be able to be deployed on a short notice.

Also, given the mass tutoring and draw power of Vintage decks, the specific and non-counterspell answers tend to be played in somewhat small amounts; the exception being graveyard hate, which is boarded in en masse due to the need to stop dredge quickly.

For example, one could argue that the old Slaver players should've brought in more Tormod's Crypts against each other. It would shut down the recursion of massive artifacts very quickly, and also cut off Yawgmoth's Will. But they didn't do this - most would have one Crypt maindeck, or side one in - because you only need one to shut down the opponent at a critical moment.

Against a deck like TPS, boarding graveyard hate is justifiable, because while they don't need Will to tendrils you out, it severely limits their options, as most of the time the path to victory is Engine > Will > Tendrils.

[median]

This might help replace merchant scroll,

I've played around with it in the past and had good results, the double green isn't hard to get, -you need one tropical and a gush, which should already be there.

[Sextiger]

It is probably win more because of the Sorcery speed, double green and the additional cost factor, getting this countered seems like a huge blow.