GWb Beat down/fish

[Blue Lotus]

This is the evolution of the GW deck posted here. Basically, I started just experimenting with just a splash for deathmark in the SB, then moved onto confidant in the main.

4 Dark Confidant   
4 Gaddock Teeg   
4 Qasali Pridemage
4 Leonin Arbiter   
4 Tarmogoyf   

4 Swords to Plowshares   
4 Thoughtseize

4 Null Rod

1 Black Lotus   
1 Lotus Petal   
1 Mox Emerald   
1 Mox Jet   
1 Mox Pearl   
2 Bayou
1 Forest
4 Horizon Canopy   
1 Plains   
4 Savannah   
2 Scrubland   
1 Strip Mine   
4 Wasteland   
4 Windswept Heath

SB
4 Deathmark
4 Nature's claim
4 Graveyard trap
3 wheel of sun and moon

The issue I had with the GW build is that it couldn't attack past a trygon. I didn't like boarding in path against decks on the trygon jace plan because that really conflicted with the mana denial plan. Also, I didn't really like path against other fish decks b/c my main strategy there would be to cut off on color of mana and go from there.

To replace path I went with deathmark. It kills all the standard oath idiots (sphinx, terastadon, iona naming white) as well as trygon and goyf. AKA the creatures you can't attack past.

I also didn't like knight that much. I was a total beating but a turn too slow. Also turn two arbiter turn three knight is annoying. Yes knight is great when it gets three strip effects in a row, but that wasn't happening enough of the times I cast it.

I added thoughtseize to make goyf bigger, which it does admirably.

Confidant is obviously bonkers. The CMC of the deck is like .91 with little variance.

I cut Kataki because I think Pridemage is just better.

I run 4 canopies so you can run more ands and not get flooded. This deck really wants to hit its four land drops on time and then never draw a land again. That isn't possible, but canopy makes it work a little better.

I left out tutors. I'm curious as to what you guys think about them with arbiter and thousands of spheres. Demonic consultation has been great though as I play with it.

[honestabe]

I'd cut goyf.  I know it sounds crazy, but every consistently successful GW list ive seen just doesnt run him, as he isnt disruptive.  Like, ever.  2 Kataki is just infinitly more backbreaking to the Stax/Mana Drain player, and combined with null rod is just plain sweet.  2 Ethersworn cannonist also seems good for shutting down GAT and Storm decks, so i'd cut goyf for those guys.

I'd also reccomend a ghost quarter or two, since it's stripmine with arbiter in play, and those, wastes, strip, arbiter, null rod and kataki would make one hell of a mana denial suite.  And even if you dont have arbiter in play. it can still be a strip mine vs shops, and can kill tolarians, lbraries, and cut your opponent off a color

[RecklessEmbermage]

The list as it looks now should run the black/white fetch rather than windswept heath and one basic swamp. That would give you one sorely needed black source, while you still have a healthy amount of green and white. To make room for 2 ghost quarter, like Honestabe suggests, and the swamp, I'd cut cut 2 savannah and the basic forest.

Along with slicing off the forests, I'd cut 4 goyfs for 3 jotun grunt and a kataki. I'd be very tempted to shave off two rods for the second and third maindeck kataki (and something else) too. Here's the reasoning: Kataki is much more effective against shops and it punishes any artifact with an activation that is not a mana ability (equipment, top, etc) harder than rod when you combine it with land destruction. You will actually take them off the board and thus avoid getting blown out after a rebuild or whatever. Yes, it dies to a lot of things, but so does rod, and it beats for two. Grunt is as big as goyf most of the time, beats opposing goyfs, has splash effect against most decks and no anti synergy in this list. Yes, it dies after a while, but you typically get to beat for atleast 12 points, which is good enough.

And I don't like 4 teegs. They atleast have to be justified by your meta. Good against gush, surely.

So, to sort out my own bloody confusion:

-4 windswept heath
-1 forest
-2 savannah
-2 null rod
-4 goyf

+4 marsh flats
+1 swamp
+2 ghost quarter
+3 grunt
+3 kataki

And the hate-bear slots must all be justified, so some might want to run true believer over teeg or whatever.

Obviously, the step is very short to dropping rod completely and cut two lands and the fourth copies of a few cards for 4 vials and 2 tops (which is what I´d do if this was my list, guaranteed). I´m sure you already considered that though.

[Blue Lotus]

I have changed the deck around a bit. I cut down to 23 mana sources and added suppression field.

Suppression field is similar to arbiter in that it hoses fetch lands and some other key component of most decks. Field makes jace effectively cost six mana and vault key cost eight. Also, it is some maindeck hate against dredge, freeing up space in the sideboard. It protects your lands from wasteland/strip mine. It makes factory garbage. The list goes on.

The deck:

GWB Fish

4 Dark Confidant
4 Gaddock Teeg
4 Qasali Pridemage
4 Leonin Arbiter
4 Tarmogoyf

1 Demonic Consultation
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Thoughtseize

4 Suppression Field
4 Null Rod

1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
4 Bayou   
2 Horizon Canopy
4 Savannah
4 Scrubland
1 Strip Mine
4 Wasteland

SB
4 Deathmark
4 Nature's claim
4 Graveyard trap
3 ???

Some points:

Goyf: You could look at goyf like he's 'just a dude' but goyf closes out games. I think the comparison of reverse confidant has been made before: you opponent has less draw and untap steps each turn goyf is out. Also, a body is necessary against shops, more helpful than kataki. Finally, goyf is a creature in addition to pridemage that can attack into a trygon. I gut goyf from my straight g/w deck. But that deck had knight of the reliquary as a big guy to end the game fast.

Also, goyf + thoughtseize is a pretty good combo. for card parity and one mana, you get their best card and goyf gets +2/+2 permanently.

Null Rod: I see a lot of people hating on Null Rod lately. Basically, they go down a random list, count the cards null rod shuts off, and decide that it doesn't do enough. But, null rod shuts off artifact mana, locking cards in hand. It is massive card advantage for two mana.

I don't understand why you would play vial. Everything in the deck costs two, its not like you are starving for mana, and you cut off your best piece of mana denial. Also, teeg cuts of force, so the uncounterability doesn't do that much either.

You play four rod because you want to see it early and often. Same with teeg. Each is a must counter, don't think because you have drawn one it is automatically going to see the field.

No fetches/no basics: I don't run fetches because I am running 8 maindeck cards that shut off fetchlands. Also, without any cards to take advantages of the shuffle effects, you aren't getting the "full" value from your fetches. No basics because the color requirements are intense in the deck, and no fetches means running a one of basic doesn't do much. Suppression field protects against wastes, and remember waste is a symmetrical effect. Everything in the deck costs two mana or less, getting there isn't that hard, losing a land (or two) doesn't put you in an unwinnable spot. The mana is pretty good otherwise.

Demonic consultation: another reason why I love running 4 ofs. It is basically the 5th copy of whatever card you need and isn't turned off by arbiter.

Sideboard: I really don't know what to put in the last slot. Choke, vindicate, krosan grip, and path are what I am looking at now, but I am open to all suggestions. I would like to play grip to help in oath and shops, but I don't know if resolving k-grip in a shop match is a pipe dream or not. The idea is that they would board out thorns g2, making casting it a bit better.

[RecklessEmbermage]

Just quickly responding to your dismissal of my suggestions:

I didn't suggest removing null rod and leaving the list without tools against fast mana. I simply think (yes, it is not tested) that kataki has better synergy in the deck.

Aether vial would come in as a mana source in a list with atleast 7 waste effects (yes, adding 2 ghost quarter makes a difference) that could deploy hate-bears from the top of the library at instant speed. Top is also good with confidant. It seems you disregard the synergy between the cards I suggested, which bothers me slightly.

If goyf were to leave this list, it would be because grunt comes in. It also beats for four, but has utility against most decks. I think it is unwise to simply replace goyf with bears, since it leaves you soft to aggro and MUD.

Teeg will tend to get countered whenever the opponent is sitting on force, for obvious reasons. I don't see how he is necessarily a "must counter" more than any other card in a focused list. In a number of match-ups he only shuts off a few of the opponent's cards. By all means, good. And by all means: If your meta dictates it, run four main.

I think nobody claimed you're playing "the wrong cards" (except that you had the wrong fetches and one suboptimal basic in the first list). Just that some of us might play slightly different ones.

Consultation is very strong, but you need 2 copies of each tutor target to play it, not 4. Also has synergy with vial or top, by the way.

Suppression fields is interesting, but highly meta dependent. Putting 4 in the main seems extreme, since it does little in some important match-ups (MUD particularly). Also: since it doesn't beat, you give the opponent the time he/she needs to pay extra for fetching and such. And rods and arbiters make it redundant.

Your manabase isn't particularly stable (10 black sources and 12 each of green and white is slightly lower than I would be comfortable with). A slight adjustment (like 3 city of brass instead of 2 savannahs and a waste) would pull you into the comfort-zone, but you are still soft to wastes.

[Guli]

MUD will walk over this deck like there is no tomorrow.

Right now the only way fish can hold ground is to play my suggestions;

4x Vial
4x Goblin Welder
4x Gorilla Shaman
4x "something that is cheap and strong against MUD while being solid in other matchups as well"

You NEED your cheapest spells,  and cmc, to be game breaking against shop if you want to win games. There are simply too many sphere effects out there to be ignored.

The second part of my suggestion is the 'hate squad' which should be WHITE. They are all strong vial in cards, ambush strategy.

Ethersworn Canonist
Leonin Arbiter
True Believer

So the main colors should be  and not  . Tarmogoyf and Null Rod aren't auto includes any more. People finally started to think before using slots. This does not mean that Tarm or Rod are bad, I still like them if the deck is build accordingly.

I like to splash black or green. I think with green, hence  , you should go with a split believer/teeg and use ancient grudge+ liquimetal. With black you get dark confidant, tidehollow sculler (welder synergy) and demonic consultation (vial synergy). You can also use duress effects of course.

So I don't think GWb are the correct colours right now. You can theorize all you want but the fact remains you won't be able to cast anything relevant, MAYBE 1 creature, sure...

If you really want  I suggest you use cards that give you a fighting chance early game. It is not like the old days any more. You could go ahead and cast confidant turn 1 and you were fine against shop. Now that is not enough, more strong solutions are required. The only cards that I see as relevant is Qasali and STP and those will not be enough believe me. In that regard I think the suggestion of Kataki is not bad at all. You should listen to good feedback.

[Troy_Costisick]

So the main colors should be     and not    . Tarmogoyf and Null Rod aren't auto includes any more. People finally started to think before using slots. This does not mean that Tarm or Rod are bad, I still like them if the deck is build accordingly.

I've been coming to some of these same conclusions myself, Guli.  Excellent observations.

[Blue Lotus]

first, I hope I haven't come off as dismissive. Tone is something that I don't worry about in posts. I'm just being quick and to the point.

Top + confidant: the cmc of the deck is so low, you don't need to worry about stacking your library to prevent damage. Yes, there is synergy between the two cards, but not something that helps your deck all that much.

J.Grunt: I'm playing around with it, but it seems to die quickly. Plus the body of goyf is great against shops, were grunt doesn't hang around that often. Like here is a situation were grunt has annoyed me - grunt holding a golem at bay. I'm pretty well locked out of the game, I need to draw some mana for swords. They just wait until grunt dies and then I have to chump. Goyf lets you stall much longer.

Kataki: I also play kataki in straight g/w. With suppression field, I might switch back b/c 3 mana to activate a pridemage is not fun, but the tageted removal is also real good against oath. You can't just over game against shops. It seems to me that pridemage is better against the field (ie attacking against predator and other things listed), though kataki is easier to cast as well. Definitely looking into it.

Ghost quarter: This deck loves its colored mana. suppressiong field also makes waste effects not so good. This particular deck just can't get on board with that plan. It is great with arbiter out, but I want my cards to be good on their own.

The mana is iffy. City of brass is a good idea, no fetches means a little less life lost, too.

I like the four suppression fields b/c you don't have to board anything against jace/vault decks and less against dredge. Also it is best on turn 1 or two. Turn one field/arbiter turn two null rod and congratulations you locked a man out of the game with a fish deck. Also, they get better in multiples. Two suppression fields means vault key costs a cool 12 mana.

Also, you caught me on consultation being an excuse to run four ofs. But i am old school and think that running a 2/2 split or whatever just means you are running 2 less of the best available cards. Yeah its going to take about 1000 top eights to convince me otherwise I am stubborn like that.

I've been over why canonist and believer are the suck. I would like to hear why people think they are any good, it mystifies me.

MUD is actually not bad post board. Right now i am running 4 claim, 4 swords, 4 path. Get rid of golem and keep smoke stake off the board and you will get there. Suppression field also helps against b.ring.

Teeg is really good against mud too. It shuts off the back breakers of smoke stack and chalice (or ee is they run that).

And I don't want to be that guy but when has a vial list done well this year? I know we are moving into a knew format with gush, but I don't think you can conclude that playing null rod is now mindless.

Confidant is never cast turn two. If your hands only good play is turn two confidant, it should be a mulligan. I completely agree.

[pierce]

I'd not play 4 null rod. I'd probably play 0, that card is really bad right now. Dead vs MUD, as they play it too, dead vs dredge, dead vs other creature decks, and all but dead vs the blue decks--they all either maindeck 3 nature's claim, 3 trygon predator or play gush now and don't play many moxen.
Aether vial seems like a fine replacement. Especially because you're so cold to a chalice @ 2 otherwise.

I'll come up with a list by the weekend, but I've been thinking about a really similar deck.

[NV]

Until very recently I thought Null Rod was the most important card in any fish deck, espcially the non-blue variants.  Pierce has it riight that it's dead against too many decks but more importantly the decks it hurts most are now packing maindeck answers for all sorts of artifacts.  I'm testing vial right now with all disruptive creatures (no goyf) and it seems to be better.

[gamegeek2]

Agreed. Null Rod just seems inferior to targeted answers like Nature's Claim nowadays, which also removes Oath (something very important for a creature deck like this one). People also are cutting down on artifact mana; many lists have cut Mana Vault; some omit Mana Crypt as well.

Suppression Field seems like it could just be completely dead a lot more times than Arbiter, which is a 2/2 beater.

I would try something like this:

4 Dark Confidant
4 Qasali Pridemage
4 Leonin Arbiter
4 Tidehollow Sculler
3 Tarmogoyf
3 Gaddock Teeg
3 Jotun Grunt/Kataki

4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Thoughtseize
3 Nature's Claim

1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Lotus Petal
5 Fetchlands
3 Scrubland
3 Savannah
3 Bayou
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine

Yesm fetches are asynergistic with the Arbiters, but are essential to mana fixing.

[pierce]

4 vial
4 swords to plowshares
3 duress
2 nature's claim
demonic
vampiric


4 bob
4 pridemage
2 sculler
4 arbiter
2 aven mindcensor
4 goyf
3 teeg

4 wasteland
1 strip mine
lotus petal
3 mox
black lotus
4 savannah
4 bayou
2 scrubland

I'd build around this shell.

[Blue Lotus]

Hmm maybe I'm playing against a crappy shop deck, but it runs karn, trike (answers trygon), and equipment post board. I can't really imagine beating that deck without rod.

I think if fish can't run rod, it can't win vs. the field. Just an opinion of course, haven't really tested much vial. But vial has all the detriments that rod has (being an artifact) and i think it would be preferable for them to not play game breaking bombs early than not being able to counter my dudes.

How has sculler been? seems like it would die pretty quick and is vulnerable to rebuild effects, but I haven't tried it.

I'll play around with vial and write more later.

[Guli]

Hmm maybe I'm playing against a crappy shop deck, but it runs karn, trike (answers trygon), and equipment post board. I can't really imagine beating that deck without rod.

I think if fish can't run rod, it can't win vs. the field. Just an opinion of course, haven't really tested much vial. But vial has all the detriments that rod has (being an artifact) and i think it would be preferable for them to not play game breaking bombs early than not being able to counter my dudes.

How has sculler been? seems like it would die pretty quick and is vulnerable to rebuild effects, but I haven't tried it.

I'll play around with vial and write more later.

Which early game breaking bombs are you talking about? You would not be able to stop a turn 1 kill in any case.

In order to understand Vial you need to play with the card a lot. Some tips:
- If you play a turn 1 vial and it sticks you are in a serious lead
- Vial is strong with strip effects and against strip effects. This means you can afford going non basic/vial turn 1 and let them waste it. It basically hurts them more...
- You need some solid way to make use of vials later on in the game. I use Welder for example, he needs artifacts. In the past I tried things like TFK but thats not super optimal. Bazaar is nice to cycle. Frantic is interesting now. Also Magus of the Moon is an option to make late game vial draws GOOD to fix colors.
- Vial is the best card you can play against shop and control to get in your dudes
- You need to follow up turn 1 vial with strong disruption. After YEARS I ended up with Shaman, Strip Mine, Wasteland, Ghost Quarter, Thoughtseize. I will make this more concrete:
Turn 1: Scrubland, vial pass
Turn 2: Counter on vial, vial in Gorilla Shaman
Now you have the option to kill a mox and do a Thoughtseize. Or you can kill a mox and waste a land. You can also waste a land and do Thoughtseize and vial in Welder. The point is these disruption effects will all buy you time to get to vial@2, which is were you want to get, but also cripple your opponent and make your real business spells much more stronger (leonin, canonist, dark confidant, kataki,...). Another choice is to play a 2 drop.

- Another important last note I want to share is: You need to compensate for the match ups were vial is less effective. Thankfully this is done in a highly synergistic fashion with 9 strip effects against dredge. In point 2 I said vial is good with/against strip effects and this is your main deck game plan anyway while being especially good (a bit of a coincidence) against bazaar. This leaves us with the combo match up were vial can be too slow if you can't disrupt in time or they still play through your hate. My solution, for now, is the hate bears like Canonist and Leonin while trying to deny them as much mana as possible. Thoughtseize can be a game saver too. To improve game 2 and game 3 against dredge and very quick combo SB slots should be used and I side out things like welder and vial for this.

To make connection with the topic, GWb fish, I think the list pierce posted looks like a good starting point. However I think the mana base is wrong and Demonic Consultation is missing.

[Xequecal]

Has anyone considered running straight W/B? This seems very strong right now. With only two colors you can run 2-4 Ghost Quarter on top of Waste/Strip and not need to run fetchlands at all. There's definitely enough two-drops now to support it. (Bob, Kataki, Arbiter, Sculler, Believer, Grunt) With Mindcensor, Null Rod, Arbiter, and 9 strips your mana denial is exceptionally strong. Unlike G/W a W/B deck has much better odds of disrupting the opponent on turn 1, because it has Thoughtseize. This is pretty important vs. storm decks.

[Guli]

Has anyone considered running straight W/B? This seems very strong right now. With only two colors you can run 2-4 Ghost Quarter on top of Waste/Strip and not need to run fetchlands at all. There's definitely enough two-drops now to support it. (Bob, Kataki, Arbiter, Sculler, Believer, Grunt) With Mindcensor, Null Rod, Arbiter, and 9 strips your mana denial is exceptionally strong. Unlike G/W a W/B deck has much better odds of disrupting the opponent on turn 1, because it has Thoughtseize. This is pretty important vs. storm decks.

Yes I considered it but I think Gorilla Shaman and Welder are worth the red splash. Also I use Hide/Seek and Lightning bolt in the SB. If you can suggest replacements that cost or that are good against shop the way welder and shaman are I ll drop the red. It has to be 1 drops. Shaman and vial deal with Chalice@2 while I use hide seek to deal with chalice @ 1. I think in the light of MUD presence the red is a good call. Not much though... Just 7-8 slots main and a 3-4 in side.

[Xequecal]

You cannot run three colors along with 9 strips and arbiter. The mana will never work. You need every non-colorless land to produce all your colors to work 9strip aggro.

Mana tithe is a consideration vs. shops that's also good vs. the rest of the field. The main issue is while it's absolutely amazing on the play, (Shop decks have few openings that don't get utterly destroyed by Mana Tithe because Shop mana doesn't pay for it) it really sucks on the draw.

[RecklessEmbermage]

Has anyone considered running straight W/B? This seems very strong right now. With only two colors you can run 2-4 Ghost Quarter on top of Waste/Strip and not need to run fetchlands at all. There's definitely enough two-drops now to support it. (Bob, Kataki, Arbiter, Sculler, Believer, Grunt) With Mindcensor, Null Rod, Arbiter, and 9 strips your mana denial is exceptionally strong. Unlike G/W a W/B deck has much better odds of disrupting the opponent on turn 1, because it has Thoughtseize. This is pretty important vs. storm decks.

Yes I considered it but I think Gorilla Shaman and Welder are worth the red splash. Also I use Hide/Seek and Lightning bolt in the SB. If you can suggest replacements that cost or that are good against shop the way welder and shaman are I ll drop the red. It has to be 1 drops. Shaman and vial deal with Chalice@2 while I use hide seek to deal with chalice @ 1. I think in the light of MUD presence the red is a good call. Not much though... Just 7-8 slots main and a 3-4 in side.

WB with a light splash for red creatures sounds very reasonable. Have you considered tidehollow sculler as a 4-of? Along with 4-8 duress effects, it would give the deck a maindeck tool for the combo match-ups without resolving to marginal cards like ethersworn canonist. I think it is the closest equivalent to teeg in these colours. It can also be welded in or out, setting up card advantage tricks in the mid- to lategame.

I think I came off as unnecessary dismissive of your suggested WBR manabase in the other thread. For one, I hadn't seen your decklist and second; the shortcomings I saw can be corrected easily as long as long as you decide which colour is your splash. With largely white creatures, many duress effects (8?) and only a few hide/seek and maybe bolt (though those could possibly be superfluos/replaceable) as non-creature red spells, you can get away with something like 12W, 12B, 8R (not counting lotus and petal).

To expand on that, I'd like to go off topic for a moment, if you don't mind:

I just read Menendian's last article (http://www.quietspeculation.com/2010/10/so-many-insane-plays-scars-of-mirrodin-ultimate-vintage-set-review-with-complete-vintage-checklist/) and wonder how far such a build would have to stretch to incorporate 4 mox opals:

4 vial
4 mox opal
3 on-color moxen
1 lotus
1 petal
1 sol ring
4 chalice of the void
3 scullclamp (clamp sculler -> weld it out for another sculler -> profit)
4 sculler

That is 25 cards. Far below Menendian's recommended 33. They are all good, though sol ring and clamp #3 are questionable and chalice is pretty problematic on the draw. How close can we come to 33 without losing too many business cards?

Possible inclusions: Jitte, sofi, liquimental coating, mana crypt, canonist (though I really don't like that guy with so much mana denial)...

Mox opal can be the solution to 5 colour fish, if that is ever interesting: 4 mox opal, 5 moxen, 3 chrome mox, 4 city of brass is 12 solid sources of each colour. Support that with 4 vial, lotus and petal, your mana is set. If there were only enough good artifact fish...  
How bad is tidehollow strix? It trades with everything, atleast.
How about glaze fiend in a deck with glinthawk, welder and skullclamp?

Engineered explosives could be playable in such a deck, answering planeswalkers, golems, 3cc creatures etc or as a flexible wrath against other aggro decks.

[Stormanimagus]

Has anyone considered running straight W/B? This seems very strong right now. With only two colors you can run 2-4 Ghost Quarter on top of Waste/Strip and not need to run fetchlands at all. There's definitely enough two-drops now to support it. (Bob, Kataki, Arbiter, Sculler, Believer, Grunt) With Mindcensor, Null Rod, Arbiter, and 9 strips your mana denial is exceptionally strong. Unlike G/W a W/B deck has much better odds of disrupting the opponent on turn 1, because it has Thoughtseize. This is pretty important vs. storm decks.

I don't believe that Black/White has the overall power to work, but if I had to design such a deck to be as controlling as possible it would look something like this:


Black & White Cookies


Land (21):
4 Scrubland
2 Godless Shrine
4 Plains
2 Swamp
4 Wasteland
4 Ghost Quarter
1 Strip Mine

Artifacts (10):
1 Black Lotus
1 Lotus Petal
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
4 Null Rod
2 Dispeller’s Capsule

Creatures (20):
4 Dark Confidant
4 Tidehollow Sculler
4 Leonin Arbiter
4 True Believer
4 Aven Mindcensor

Sorceries (4):
4 Thoughtseize

Enchantments (1):
3 Serenity

Instants (4):
4 Path To Exile

SB
4 Leyline of Sanctity
4 Leyline of the Void
3 Pithing Needle
3 Serenity
1 Dispeller’s Capsule

The thing this deck really lacks is a clock. That would be my #1 reason never to play it. If there was an efficient clock in B/W that also disrupted a bit (ala Qasali Pridemage) I'd leap at the chance to design around these 2 colors. Alas there is not. . . yet.

-Storm

[RecklessEmbermage]

The thing this deck really lacks is a clock. That would be my #1 reason never to play it. If there was an efficient clock in B/W that also disrupted a bit (ala Qasali Pridemage) I'd leap at the chance to design around these 2 colors. Alas there is not. . . yet.

Between wastes, removal and duress you can feed grunt for a while.

I'm sure you considered him, just pointing out that there is an option. I like him quite a bit actually.

EDIT: To clarify how I would pull together a solid manabase for 3 colours and in spite of arbiters:

4 scrubland
1 plateau
1 badlands
2 bloodtained mire
4 city of brass

Together with 9 strips and a full set of moxen, that is 21 lands (a bit heavy, but not very) 12 solid black and white sources and 9 red. I would prefer a small number of fetchlands to sub-par rainbow lands.

[Guli]

You cannot run three colors along with 9 strips and arbiter. The mana will never work. You need every non-colorless land to produce all your colors to work 9strip aggro.

City of brass and Aether Vial fix a lot. For drops I use only   and   and  , , . This means nothing is multicoloured maindek. Still I opt for City of Brass just to be on the safe side and it has worked extremely nice for me. Basically instead of fetching damage you take damage of city and this is really not that much at all.

I am getting more feeling of the card Arbiter and the deck I am designing is pretty strong right now but I would like to solve some additional problems. I like Kataki against Shop even with vial and even with canonist main deck. You don't care about canonist anyway vs shop. But I think that the red splash (welder/shaman), vial, 9 strips and stp are already strong to give shop a hard game. Grunt is what I am testing now, which also gives me a strong game against dredge because I can always kill their bazaar. Besides I need the body of grunt against shop and fish. Also grunt is good against crucible, tarm and Ywill.

9 strips
4 City
3 Scrubland
3 Plateau
4 Lotus, Pearl, Jet, Ruby
4 Vial

4 Dark Confidant
4 Leonin Arbiter
4 Canonist
4 Gorilla Shaman
4 Welder

3 Grunt
1 Demonic Consultation

4 Thoughtseize
3 Swords to Plowshares
2 Disenchant
 

Sideboard
4 Leyline of Sancity
3 T Crypt
3 Ravenous Trap
1 Duress
2 Hide/Seek
1 Lightning Bolt
1 Swords to Plowshares

[Stormanimagus]

You cannot run three colors along with 9 strips and arbiter. The mana will never work. You need every non-colorless land to produce all your colors to work 9strip aggro.

City of brass and Aether Vial fix a lot. For drops I use only   and   and  , , . This means nothing is multicoloured maindek. Still I opt for City of Brass just to be on the safe side and it has worked extremely nice for me. Basically instead of fetching damage you take damage of city and this is really not that much at all.

I am getting more feeling of the card Arbiter and the deck I am designing is pretty strong right now but I would like to solve some additional problems. I like Kataki against Shop even with vial and even with canonist main deck. You don't care about canonist anyway vs shop. But I think that the red splash (welder/shaman), vial, 9 strips and stp are already strong to give shop a hard game. Grunt is what I am testing now, which also gives me a strong game against dredge because I can always kill their bazaar. Besides I need the body of grunt against shop and fish. Also grunt is good against crucible, tarm and Ywill.

9 strips
4 City
3 Scrubland
3 Plateau
4 Lotus, Pearl, Jet, Ruby
4 Vial

4 Dark Confidant
4 Leonin Arbiter
4 Canonist
4 Gorilla Shaman
4 Welder

3 Grunt
1 Demonic Consultation

4 Thoughtseize
3 Swords to Plowshares
2 Disenchant
 

Sideboard
4 Leyline of Sancity
3 T Crypt
3 Ravenous Trap
1 Duress
2 Hide/Seek
1 Lightning Bolt
1 Swords to Plowshares

Guli, I see a big anti-synergy with 9 Strip effects + 0 Null Rod. I think the two really go hand in hand. You essentially become the Sphere deck when you cut your opponent off from:

Land Mana
Artifact Mana
Tutor for Stuff + Mana

I think that this trifecta is the way to go. Vial is great against Shops and Fish, but Rod is much better vs. Tezz + TPS + Full Moxen.dec. I dunno man. I think that when you don't run Null Rod you are just asking for trouble from any broken strategy out there.

-Storm

[Guli]

You cannot run three colors along with 9 strips and arbiter. The mana will never work. You need every non-colorless land to produce all your colors to work 9strip aggro.

City of brass and Aether Vial fix a lot. For drops I use only   and   and  , , . This means nothing is multicoloured maindek. Still I opt for City of Brass just to be on the safe side and it has worked extremely nice for me. Basically instead of fetching damage you take damage of city and this is really not that much at all.

I am getting more feeling of the card Arbiter and the deck I am designing is pretty strong right now but I would like to solve some additional problems. I like Kataki against Shop even with vial and even with canonist main deck. You don't care about canonist anyway vs shop. But I think that the red splash (welder/shaman), vial, 9 strips and stp are already strong to give shop a hard game. Grunt is what I am testing now, which also gives me a strong game against dredge because I can always kill their bazaar. Besides I need the body of grunt against shop and fish. Also grunt is good against crucible, tarm and Ywill.

9 strips
4 City
3 Scrubland
3 Plateau
4 Lotus, Pearl, Jet, Ruby
4 Vial

4 Dark Confidant
4 Leonin Arbiter
4 Canonist
4 Gorilla Shaman
4 Welder

3 Grunt
1 Demonic Consultation

4 Thoughtseize
3 Swords to Plowshares
2 Disenchant
 

Sideboard
4 Leyline of Sancity
3 T Crypt
3 Ravenous Trap
1 Duress
2 Hide/Seek
1 Lightning Bolt
1 Swords to Plowshares

Guli, I see a big anti-synergy with 9 Strip effects + 0 Null Rod. I think the two really go hand in hand. You essentially become the Sphere deck when you cut your opponent off from:

Land Mana
Artifact Mana
Tutor for Stuff + Mana

I think that this trifecta is the way to go. Vial is great against Shops and Fish, but Rod is much better vs. Tezz + TPS + Full Moxen.dec. I dunno man. I think that when you don't run Null Rod you are just asking for trouble from any broken strategy out there.

-Storm

Shaman compensates, it does the job

[RecklessEmbermage]

You cannot run three colors along with 9 strips and arbiter. The mana will never work. You need every non-colorless land to produce all your colors to work 9strip aggro.

City of brass and Aether Vial fix a lot. For drops I use only   and   and  , , . This means nothing is multicoloured maindek. Still I opt for City of Brass just to be on the safe side and it has worked extremely nice for me. Basically instead of fetching damage you take damage of city and this is really not that much at all.

I am getting more feeling of the card Arbiter and the deck I am designing is pretty strong right now but I would like to solve some additional problems. I like Kataki against Shop even with vial and even with canonist main deck. You don't care about canonist anyway vs shop. But I think that the red splash (welder/shaman), vial, 9 strips and stp are already strong to give shop a hard game. Grunt is what I am testing now, which also gives me a strong game against dredge because I can always kill their bazaar. Besides I need the body of grunt against shop and fish. Also grunt is good against crucible, tarm and Ywill.

9 strips
4 City
3 Scrubland
3 Plateau
4 Lotus, Pearl, Jet, Ruby
4 Vial

4 Dark Confidant
4 Leonin Arbiter
4 Canonist
4 Gorilla Shaman
4 Welder

3 Grunt
1 Demonic Consultation

4 Thoughtseize
3 Swords to Plowshares
2 Disenchant
 

Sideboard
4 Leyline of Sancity
3 T Crypt
3 Ravenous Trap
1 Duress
2 Hide/Seek
1 Lightning Bolt
1 Swords to Plowshares

Guli, I see a big anti-synergy with 9 Strip effects + 0 Null Rod. I think the two really go hand in hand. You essentially become the Sphere deck when you cut your opponent off from:

Land Mana
Artifact Mana
Tutor for Stuff + Mana

I think that this trifecta is the way to go. Vial is great against Shops and Fish, but Rod is much better vs. Tezz + TPS + Full Moxen.dec. I dunno man. I think that when you don't run Null Rod you are just asking for trouble from any broken strategy out there.

-Storm

Shaman compensates, it does the job

What happened with Kataki?

I still don't like your manabase btw. Sorry.

[Guli]

The mana base is fine. I would have noticed by now if it sucked. Like I said, this deck doesn't fear wastelands, on the contrary.

I like Kataki. But I think with welder/shaman/vial/strips grunt is the better choice. You can go 3x Welder and 3x Canonist and add 2x Kataki i guess but that would make your demonic consult weaker.

Mox opal can be the solution to 5 colour fish, if that is ever interesting

Being able to access all 5 colors With a stable mana base would enable very interesting fish builds...

The mana base I am using makes me "feel" I can run 4 colors. However I am not giving into that feeling. Practically I haven't had any problems casting my spells. It is all cheap and easy to cast.

[Stormanimagus]

The mana base is fine. I would have noticed by now if it sucked. Like I said, this deck doesn't fear wastelands, on the contrary.

I like Kataki. But I think with welder/shaman/vial/strips grunt is the better choice. You can go 3x Welder and 3x Canonist and add 2x Kataki i guess but that would make your demonic consult weaker.

Mox opal can be the solution to 5 colour fish, if that is ever interesting

Being able to access all 5 colors With a stable mana base would enable very interesting fish builds...

The mana base I am using makes me "feel" I can run 4 colors. However I am not giving into that feeling. Practically I haven't had any problems casting my spells. It is all cheap and easy to cast.

Guli, I've said it before and I'll say it again. By running a "best answers" toolbox fish deck you are diluting the linearity of the deck in favor of better tools. Fish cannot do the catch-all strategy as well as Big Blue or MUD. Those decks deny AND then some. They attack the fundamental strategies of the game and they have a toolbox that is so synergistic it just makes a deck like this look slow and noobish. The ONLY way Beatdown strategies even have a prayer is to attack the very things that those decks rely on as paths to victory:

Now I would argue that a couple cards do this quite well:

1. Null Rod vs. Tezz --> Attacks their fundamental way of doing bonkers things and also shuts off their main kill. Null Rod + Leonin Arbiter is an obviously great 1-->2 punch.

2. Aether Vial vs. MUD --> First turn Vial (or even sometimes second turn) allows you to drop dudes around spheres. Often it is a tight race, but an unanswered Vial can often get there by allowing you to curve out from Pridemage (sacced to kill a 5/3) into Trygon FTW.

I would argue that those are the 2 best cards for a beatz deck to beat the 2 top-tier decks in the field atm. Nature's Claim is NOT a good answer because it is a 1-for-1 that you are following up with butkiss compared to what they are following up with.

Now what does this have to do with the decks you are proposing? You are running cards that are just plain too narrow for Vintage. Gorilla Shaman may blow up moxen, but it does not stop a deck from dropping tons of them on the same turn and going broken. Kataki, doesn't do squat against MUD (I know you weren't necessarily suggesting him, but I just want to reiterate that he is a terrible answer) because they have Ancient Tomb. And I agree that the manabase is weakened by the 3rd Color. Also, why on earth are you running Welder? On the off chance that you can recur a lotus a turn? That will be rare my friend and other than that I do not see Welder as useful at all. Many MUD lists no longer run Lotus so welding in and out their stuff will be tough. Perhaps I'm not seeing the usefulness of Welder, but he seems like a dead draw a large amount of the time. I think Fish needs to be super well positioned to perform well, and it needs to run an engine that sorta trumps key decks (as Selkie did against Thirst Drain decks way back). Unfortunately Fish has not yet found a solid answer to MUD and that is hurting its chances of being a larger part of the Vintage picture.

-Storm

[RecklessEmbermage]

Storm: I don't get your last post.

Aether vial and null rod are good on their own, but not together. He's running monkeys instead of rods, which doesn't do much against MUD, but neither does rod unless its combo MUD.

If you can find a way to combine rods and vials, please show us. I would argue that monkeys and kataki are the best tools available to this deck. Why is Kataki good? Because he runs 9 strips. Those ancient tombs are not going to stay on the board for long.

He's running disenchant, but mostly as a flexible answer to sphinx and other troublesome permanents coming his way, I'm sure. Not in an attempt to hose a strategy.

I agree when it comes to welder. It is too conditional to warrant maindeck inclusion.

I posted a manabase a few posts up that is more stable than this, with 21 lands, rather than 19. I think a three-colour deck warrants it, regardless of what Guli has found, playing against an unknown gauntlet of decks.

[Xequecal]

Has anyone considered running straight W/B? This seems very strong right now. With only two colors you can run 2-4 Ghost Quarter on top of Waste/Strip and not need to run fetchlands at all. There's definitely enough two-drops now to support it. (Bob, Kataki, Arbiter, Sculler, Believer, Grunt) With Mindcensor, Null Rod, Arbiter, and 9 strips your mana denial is exceptionally strong. Unlike G/W a W/B deck has much better odds of disrupting the opponent on turn 1, because it has Thoughtseize. This is pretty important vs. storm decks.

I don't believe that Black/White has the overall power to work, but if I had to design such a deck to be as controlling as possible it would look something like this:


Black & White Cookies


Land (21):
4 Scrubland
2 Godless Shrine
4 Plains
2 Swamp
4 Wasteland
4 Ghost Quarter
1 Strip Mine

Artifacts (10):
1 Black Lotus
1 Lotus Petal
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
4 Null Rod
2 Dispeller’s Capsule

Creatures (20):
4 Dark Confidant
4 Tidehollow Sculler
4 Leonin Arbiter
4 True Believer
4 Aven Mindcensor

Sorceries (4):
4 Thoughtseize

Enchantments (1):
3 Serenity

Instants (4):
4 Path To Exile

SB
4 Leyline of Sanctity
4 Leyline of the Void
3 Pithing Needle
3 Serenity
1 Dispeller’s Capsule

The thing this deck really lacks is a clock. That would be my #1 reason never to play it. If there was an efficient clock in B/W that also disrupted a bit (ala Qasali Pridemage) I'd leap at the chance to design around these 2 colors. Alas there is not. . . yet.

-Storm

This is similar to what I came up with. I have Serenity in the SB because there are way too many maindeck artifacts for that to be good, and I run Samurai of the Pale Curtain. This card is seriously underrated right now, remember it can trade with Workshop creatures.

4 Scrubland
4 Godless Shrine
4 Caves of Kolios
4 Wasteland
4 Ghost Quarter
1 Strip Mine

1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Jet
4 Null Rod

4 Dark Confidant
4 Tidehollow Sculler
4 True Believer
4 Leonin Arbiter
4 Samurai of the Pale Curtain
2 Kataki, War's Wage
2 Aven Mindcensor

4 Thoughtseize
4 Swords to Plowshares

SB:
4 Leyline of Sanctity
4 Mana Tithe
2 Tornod's Crypt
1 Kataki, War's Wage
3 Serenity
1 Aven Mindcensor

The Mana Tithes in the SB are something I'm trying out, they're really good against storm combo and I can't emphasize enough how ridiculous they are against Workshop decks on the play. Workshop decks don't have many openings that don't get hosed by Mana Tithe because Workshop mana doesn't pay for it. It stops Workshop, lock piece, or land, mox, sphere. If they play Workshop, Mox you can just counter the Mox, or depending on what is in your hand let it resolve and try to hit a 5/3 with Tithe. To get around it and do anything on turn 1 they basically have to open on Ancient Tomb + Mox, and even against that you can still hit Metalworker or Crucible.

[Guli]

The MUD match up is even but in a way that is somewhat extreme. With extreme I mean the next:

- If the MUD player draws a strong hand and is on the play he could potentially never give the vial player a chance to even cast vial and roll over him. But this doesn't happen a lot.
- If the Vial player is on the draw and is able to cast vial, welder and do a stream of strip effects the next couple of turns while destroying stuff the MUD player has zero chance to win the game.

I hardly have an in between scenario. Yes I am using Welder specifically to kill Workshop while I also use Welder to help my countered/killed artifacts. Welder/Canonist is a strong way to keep exalted at bay.

Storm, I will also say it again. You need Welder and Vial to win games against Shop with this kind of deck. And Kataki does a lot against MUD especially with the strips. Qasali is actually a card that does nothing against MUD in my opinion since you might not even be able to cast it. At least with STP and Disenchant you can cast it through Tangle Wire. Vial is also immune to Tangle Wire. I admit that this deck is designed to give yourself a very real chance to successfully overcome Workshop decks. On the other hand I didn't dedicate or choose the cards in a way that they are only good against shop. Welder and shaman are their to keep ANY kind of artifact play at bay.

When it comes down to the blue decks, which are all alike from my perspective (search, build up mana, draw draw draw, cast cast cast), a portion of the cards that i use to give myself a serious edge against shop are also strong against blue. With strong I concretely mean they support my real answers very nicely. Welder and Vial become your 'counters' when you want to get in canonist when they are holding force or drain. Gorilla Shaman makes Leonin so much stronger. Those strip effects are so nice too with Leonin. Conclusion is that what you call narrow I call multifunctional and these package of cards I mentioned work very well together in different kinds of matchups. Grunt is there to fill in gabs. He is your clock, muscle when you need one and he is your gameplan against dredge game 1 with strips. A very simple plan, strip their bazaar and play grunt. He will get rid of the dredgers relatively soon while you get in your stuff and draw into another strip in case they draw into another bazaar.

I agree when it comes to welder. It is too conditional to warrant maindeck inclusion.

So tell me, you expect a meta with few Workshop decks? If so, then sure do send Welder to SB and use additional duress or something. Also Welder is a magnet that tends to get countered. Which is great, you just successfully took their force+blue card.

About the mana base. Your lands will only get destroyed in specific match ups. This means that against blue for example every land you cast sticks and this deck can operate out of 2 lands (city + whatever) and 1 vial. Still I draw into so much lands with especially with confidant up. Ok what if you play wasteland.dec? In those match ups the vial and mox become huge. My experience against fish is that this deck has the superior mana denial package. Traditional fish use 6+ fetchlands and need their colored mana as well. They can't afford to waste away like their is no tomorrow. If they take up that role, they will end up worse in the end. Can't keep up.

The workshop match is explained above. It is a clash of the titans. Both decks can overpower the other with the right cards. None of the decks have the ability to tutor so both rely on topdeck and strong hands. I waste their shops and ancients, stp their golems and disenchant/ ONE key artifact to make welder deadly. You are right about shaman, it is only good if they play mox or crypt. "Only good" when mox means good overall though, since they will play that mox or not? Another observation I made is that in the workshop game you can actually lock them out of the game. In fact I tend to follow this course more and more with vial and welder. Those sphere effects are 'effecting' them more and more in the long run unless a crucible pops up. It is funny how welder can make those spheres his own personal playing tools.

Do you think adding 2 fetchlands would make it much more stable?

9 strips
4 City
3 Scrubland
3 Plateau
2 Fetchland +2 (this is no problem with Leonin)
4 Lotus, Pearl, Jet, Ruby
4 Vial

4 Dark Confidant
4 Leonin Arbiter
4 Canonist

3 Gorilla Shaman -1
3 Welder -1

3 Grunt
1 Demonic Consultation

4 Thoughtseize
3 Swords to Plowshares
2 Disenchant
 

Sideboard
4 Leyline of Sancity
3 T Crypt
3 Ravenous Trap
1 Duress
2 Hide/Seek
1 Lightning Bolt
1 Swords to Plowshares

Something like this perhaps

[Stormanimagus]

@RecklessEmbermage - I never proposed putting Rod and Vial in the same deck, just that they are the best answers to those respective match-ups and the point I was trying to make was that they absolutely do NOT fit in the same deck. I was also trying to point out that Rod has much better synergy with Strips + Arbiter + Kataki than Shaman does.

@Guli - First off, I'm glad I understand your thought process more now, but I still disagree with most of your conclusions. I'll outline my disagreements point by point:

1. Gorilla Shaman doesn't even come close to Null Rod vs. Tezz and the only reason he's really in there it seems is for the long game against MUD as a)Answer to Chalice @2 and b) a way to make Kataki actually do something.

2. How is Welder an answer to MUD again? How often are you going to nuke an early artifact of theirs to get Welder online? 30, perhaps 40% of the time. Let me show you some openings that Welder does squat against:

Turn 1: Welder
Their Turn 1: Shop, Mox, Golem
Your Turn 2: Nothing important
Their Turn 2: Start bringing in the hurt

K, another one:

Turn 1: Welder
Their Turn 1: Mox, Mox, Sphere, Waste your land
Turn 2: Nothing
Their Turn 2: Shop, Golem
Turn 3: Nothing because you now have just 2 land
Their Turn 4: Waste and that's probably GGs

The only openings where Welder is good is where you also have Shaman to nuke a mox and then start welder their stuff. So that requires Welder + Shaman, and I don't like relying on 2-card combos that don't auto-win for me and can take a turn to get going. Oh yeah, and if they get 2 Golem out you can't weld both so they'll still get a swing for 5 in every turn.

I'm not saying Welder is an awful card overall, but it has 0 place in a deck that can't abuse its synergies for itself and not simply mess with the opponent.

3. I guess I missed how nice Kataki + Strips could be. I still think Serenity might be better, but I'll acknowledge that Kataki might actually have more applications than I originally thought. Though Kataki, does very little vs. Worker MUD.

4. Leonin + Strips is very strong yes, but don't delude yourself into thinking it is an answer all. It has a gaping weakness to Fish and MUD and ANT. Every card is a role player to an extent. It just so happens that certain cards are dead LESS of the time. Null Rod is such a card. Trygon Predator is such a card. Strip Effects are such cards. Arbiter is great against the decks it's great against and dead against the decks it's dead against. Unfortunately, one of the decks it's dead against is a big player in the meta right now so its power will not be fully felt atm.

Guli- you need to explain your choices in terms of game states and be more specific because I just don't see this deck running the gauntlet like you claim it will. I see this deck winning a couple glorious match-ups against mediocre opponents but, ultimately, ending up around a 2-3 drop territory at a tournament. I've tried decks just like this and failed in the past and I hardly remember making many play errors (I played RWB Mountains win again at Waterbury years ago and it ran most of the goodies you have now and I went 3-3 drop I think). Even if your deck does have a good chance against MUD (which I'm just not seeing, especially if they win the die roll) you are WIIIIIIIDDEE open to Storm combo, Tezz and Oath by not running Null Rod. I realize that Arbiter + Wastes shines there, but lacking counters allows them to dictate the pace of things. I guess all you can hope for is for them to make tons of play mistakes game 1 thinking that you are on Blue-Based Fish and playing around non-existent Force Of Wills. Unlikely when they see a City of Brass or Badlands hit play. Show me some testing results and I'll be a believer, but for now I'm extremely skeptical.

Lastly, on the testing note, do you MWS Guli? I'd love to help you test this deck against the Gauntlet to help you tweak it. PM me sometime and let's chat to set up a match.

-Storm