'Oh No Tezzer- !Vault! Shop Combo'

[Shax]

Normally don't post as much as I devour the forums for information, but heres something to maybe.. just maybe be surprised about.

Lands:
1 Tolarian Academy
4 Mishra's Workshop
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine

Creatures:
4 Metalworker
2 Kuldotha Forgemaster/ Rings of Brighthearth
1 Blightsteel Collosus/FlexSlot

Spells:
1 Lotus Petal
1 Mox Jet
1 Sol Ring
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Pearl
1 Black Lotus
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mox Ruby
3 Chalice of the Void/4
1 Trinisphere
1 Mox Emerald
1 Lightning Greaves/FlexSlot
4 Voltaic Key
1 Mana Vault
1 Time Vault
4 Staff of Domination
4 Serum Powder
1 Memory Jar
4 Umbral Mantle
4 Ring of Three Wishes
4 Mox Opal
Sb:
3 Relic of Progenitus
4 Leyline of the Void
4 Duplicant
4 Leyline of Sanctity
Card Choices:
 
The lands are what you would normally expect in a MUD deck. Crystal Vein is here for Grim Monolith, which lets us still have a first turn Metalworker with the two tap lands. Voltaic Key is good with Monolith as well. 15 seems about right barring Waste+Strip. The creatures being Metalworker, Golem and Kuldotha. Metalworker is there to make too much mana and win the game with Staff. Golem is an excellent replacement to his buddy Lodestone here because him alone can sac to Kuldotha for another piece of combo. Against Null Rod decks he can win you the game with sheer strength of what he brings to the table. He's a good slot atleast to combo with. Kuldotha is a artifact Tezzerett here. Definately a easy way to win the game by fetching another artifact. The spells of the deck are accelerrants and Serum Powder. Powder is highly underrated to find shock! Combo pieces. This feels like playing the pre errata Time Vault with Rings combo type of deck. The deck can seem to fit a large number of gaps with other good cards too. Mox Opal is better in numbers here, and any singleton artifacts..''I'm looking at you, DSC-Platinum Angel-7/10-Duplicant'' work good here. Don't seem hard to transition over to a Welder deck to be broke with SBed artifact hate. Serum Powder seems to have the best use here compared to the aggro MUD's use trying to find super spheres and card quality. We're instead hunting for two card bombs. How much do you hate Null Rod right now is the question on if you want to play Shop Combo or not.. but Null Rod isn't being seen in large numbers right now.  The Sideboard has the Leylines for Ichorid and Oath+Blue, serum helps find these leylines. The Bridges are for Ichorid as well.. and the singletons are there. I know I could make a better use for a slot here or there but through testing the list is pretty smooth for a unexpectant metagame. Tested against most of the field and I call majority on Force of Will or shenanigans. So give it a whirl and see if you come to any of the same conclusions. Call me Rocky for using 4 Staff 4 Key, but with Kuldotha and Serum I think we can cheat the hell out of our income taxes.

Okay having most of what is needed to be said is already known, I'm glad to see that Staff of Domnination is finally influencing normal MUD list all over the place. With that being known, I've came up with some of this builds weakpoints against the vintage formats finest.

Noble Fish(UGW)- This matchup depends entirely on your game one performance and what your Chalices are going to be set to. They run maindeck hate in the form of Pridemage and Stp.. plus counters. This is fairly winnable but in every case I've won the match against a Noble Fish deck, it was with a little bit of luck and a hard fought match. Games two and three watchout, this is where it can get even worse for you. They also can run maindeck Null Rod, which essentially makes you go from a 9/10 deck for performance to.. 1/10. A game two or three Kataki is even worse. All of this is not counting the Nature's Claims or Hurkyl's Recall they can run/Trygon. So to sum it up, this is our worse matchup by far. Try and relax, they are the only deck trying to completely shut you down every game more so than any other build.

TPS(ANT, Belcher to some degree, Tendrils based combo: See Gush related matchups)- Against Tendrils, more importantly TPS, they are another deck that is harder than it looks to take out. They run FoW, and maindeck artifact bounce. Chalice is key in this matchup along with Lodestone Golem. Wasteland and Stripmine are godsend for any lands you can knockout before they go all in on their storm. Game One is more or less determined by die roll and luck of the draw. Games Two and Three might be a little bit more in your favor. Simply because you can board in your Relics and Leylines to stop their Tendrils and Y.Will or graveyard shenanigans. Again, this is all up to lady luck.

Big Blue( All Archtypes mentioned on main page of deck discussion for blue)- Gush, Gush, Gush,... Gush. Thats how many gushes we see. They are annoying, because they laugh at wasteland. Worse when they use them on their turn, to increase their mana over your Lodestone Golem and fuel their storm/creature mechanic. Blue decks run Time Vault. We run this as well. They have counters. Tinker, is going to be finding lots of BSC I expect. This is horrible for us as I'd rather be the one in control of the clock of whose going to win with what. Blue pretty much has all the answers to fight us, they dillute themselves to trying to get their own win condition though instead of having all the tools to fight us. (See Fish) This matchup is going to be won with the dieroll and what you board in. See Trygons? Ensnaring Bridge- Duplicant. Maybe even consider using Steelhell Kite instead of Dups or Bridges. Steelhell Kite is really great at disrupting opponents using green compared to everything else at the moment. It's also stopped by Null Rod, so pick you blessings. Blue is not fun to play against, but we've got some luck and a little bit of strategy to slow them down. Oath gets laughed at by Leyline, until they find a enchantment removal spell.

Bazaar-Dredge:- I really don't find nothing wrong with our Dredge matchup. We've got Bridges and Relics in the board. They do their jobs. Game One is all about playing the gamestate and what they have on their board. Dredge does what it does just like MUD Combo trys to play close as possible to MUD Aggro without making the combo parts useless. (Staff, Mantle, Voltaic Key, Serum Powder to an extent, but this card is way to dependable at giving us more hands to look at and decide what we're playing with.) So roll the dice.

Mishra's Workshop Decks:- MUD is more a battle of who gets what. Against Welder Shop decks, they have nasty artifact hate so they are high on the list of threats. Red isn't exactly the color this deck is used to playing against. So there isn't much you can use against them except normal disruption and hope for some lucky hands and draws. Against Prison and Aggro MUD you should expect Steelhell Kite and Smokestacks, also Mishra's Factory or Null Rod(*!). Any Mishra's Workshop deck that is using Null Rod against you means you are riding your bycycle through hell. No chance to recover should they be using it with some good disruption of theirs that isn't effected by the Null Rod. Pray for good dice rolls against other shop decks, and adjust your gameplan to their threats.

*For your sideboard for graveyard hate. Run Phyrexian Metamorph, or Relic of Progenitus, Leyline of the Void, or *Ensnaring Bridge for Dredge*. Tormod's Crypt works but it is not as good as a Relic in here. Eveything else is all black graveyard hate not worth running black for. Having a extirpate in a combo deck is very beneficial against Blue decks too. Leyline is still the best hate against Dredge, and we run Serum Powder so we have a great chance at finding hate. Relic is worthwhile in other matches aside from this, since it is a artifact. Ensnaring Bridge can catch Trygon Predators on the downhill slope so if there are lots of JaceVault/Trygon decks in your area prepare for them with this.

Edited expletive out of title.  Please don't use expletives on TMD - Prospero

[serracollector]

I see you posted the decks we were trying on MWS.  I thought I told you to be hush hush about it

Well since its out, I might as well post my list as well:

Lands (13)
4 x Mishra's Workshop
4 x City of Traitors
4 x Ancient Tomb
1 x Tolarian Academy

Combo Pieces:(32)
4 x Metalworker
4 x Staff of Domination
4 x Voltaic Key
4 x Grim Monolith
4 x Kuldotha Forgemaster
4 x Helm of Obedience
4 x Leyline of the Void
1 x Time Vault
3 x Umbral Tie Mantle (edited thanks Troy)

Utility:(5)
4 x Serum Powder
1 x Trinisphere
1 x Memory Jar

Mana Artifacts:(9)
1 x Black Lotus
5 x Moxen
1 x Sol Ring
1 x Mana Vault
1 x Mana Crypt

Sideboard:
4 x Leyline of Sanctity
4 x Defense Grid
4 x Lodestone Golem
1 x Pithing Needle
2 x Jester's cap

I prefer playing the Leyline maindeck as it provides disruption against the decks 2 main threats, Dredge (which is just as fast) and Y will, which when resolved i GG 99% of the time.
Also it provides an extra win condition in the form of Helm, and can lead to first turn wins, in addition to all the possible turn 2 wins this deck can pull off.
Also with all the mass mana accelerants, making a helm go off for 10+ against a player can help you steel that oath, or tinker target, or at worst get you a Confidant or Trygon, which is a 2 for 1 either way.

Me and Shax playtested (more like goldfished) probably 30-40 games, and it was simply whoever got metworker off first won.  We even tested if our metalworker was Forced on turn 1, and we still consistently were pulling turn 3 and 4 wins.  

I understand the use of Precursor golem in the fear of Null Rod, but with so many people who play ROD also playing Nature's Claim, and Pridemage, Golem really isn't a threat.  I would much rather play the 4 helms, and just "win now".  This is just an opinion tho, I won't say that either is better than the other.  Meta dependent I suppose.

I played about 20 games on MWS other than against Shax, and simply the deck is amazing.  Against almost any form of aggro, this is simply a turn 2 kill.  Against control, I personally just go with the idea "Not everyone gets force opening hand".  And even if they do, as stated, it goes off anyways.  

I only run the 13 lands, and haven't had any problems with mana yet.  

Hopefully, with the unrestriction of Gush, everyone is going to be looking at a "blue meta" and not expect this to show up, and thus I HOPE I don't see a lot of Null Rods.  

All they need to do is make an artifact that can destroy artifacts without an activation cost and this deck is golden lol.

Anyways, damn you Shax for posting it before I got to take it to a tournament and test it out.

All and any feedback is welcome.

[Stray_Cat]

Hello,
I would like to know if the vault/key combo is really needed...
I mean, you can already "pseudo-tinker" for metalworker + staff, that just wins you the game (with the same weaknesses, by the way) without having to fill tour build with dead cards. Correct me if I'm wrong...
The only time this is worst than vault/key is when you would have staff on the table and you need metalworker, which forces you to pass the turn. Is it really a reason important enough to play 5 dead cards ?

[serracollector]

Voltaic Key is also synergistic with:

Metal Worker
Grim Monolith
Forgemaster

It lets you combo with Worker and only 2 artifacts in hand instead of 3.
Lets you serach twice with Forgemaster if needed.
Obv implications with mana Vault, Grim, Crypt, and Sol Ring.

Also the first turn "oops I win" with workshop, vault, key, mox also can happen, and never seems a bad thing.....

The question is more "why not play time vault when your playing 4 key",  the 4 Keys are definitely not "dead" cards.  

Also, if you tinker for either Staff or Metaworker, it means you already had Forgemaster and at least 3 other artifacts in play (2 to sac and either the Worker or Staff in play), which means more than likely you do not have the 3 artifacts in hand to go infinite.

[Shax]

Lets just say, I posted before testing as conclusive. I think Shop Combo will always have a prevalant threat to use as long as Metalworker is unrestricted, and Shops have Trinisphere. Since when a combo deck can abuse multiple time walks for easier victory, and hose decks like ANT with it's core.  That along with just the power of Mishra's Workshop is what will let us creep on people.

[Troy_Costisick]

Lands:
1 Tolarian Academy
4 Mishra's Workshop
4 Ancient Tomb
2 Crystal Vein
4 City of Traitors

There is no way I'd play a mana base like this without Crucible of Worlds.  You've got 7 lands that could easily end up in your graveyard during the course of a game without your opponent having to break a sweat and no way to get them back.  I understand you're going for combo more than control (love the inclusion of MemJar) but the fragility of this land set is ridiculous.  You are just asking to get totally hosed by any deck with 5 Wastes.  I can see an opening hand of 4 busniess spells but with City of Traitors, Crystal Vein, and Tolarian Academy as the lands- and you'd have to mulligan that hand!

EDIT:  I do like your inclusion of Mox Opal, here.  It makes good sense in this deck.  Have you tried artifact lands like maybe Darksteel Citadel or maybe even Ancient Den.  I know it would still be a stretch, but Den, Lotus, Opal, and Pearl make conceivable that you could hard cast LotS if the game went long and you still needed it as an answer.

[dangerlinto]

I understand the use of Precursor golem in the fear of Null Rod, but with so many people who play ROD also playing Nature's Claim, and Pridemage, Golem really isn't a threat.  I would much rather play the 4 helms, and just "win now".  This is just an opinion tho, I won't say that either is better than the other.  Meta dependent I suppose.

Note that neither Pridemage not Trygon is a threat to Golem in the same way Claim is.

Still I would not run Golem in that deck, just as you said, the "win now" factor is there

[madmanmike25]

First off let me start by saying congrats on two very interesting MUD combo lists.  I have been testing Forgemaster and he's nuts.  You guys went more for the all-in approach.  I tested both lists (briefly) and I'm not sure which one is better.  Both are super-duper explosive.  The only problem I see is that going on the draw might be a bit tougher than you guys think.  Duress, Thoughtseize, Spell Pierce, Sphere, Thorn, and Chalice can really stop your gameplan.  When the deck is on the play it's crazy good, however.

I didn't mention Null Rod because it's too obvious.  In fact I will say that the speed of this deck seems to compensate for the vulnerabillity to Null Rod.

The two lists differ a bit since the 2nd list has Helm+Leyline at the cost of 4 Chalice, 2 lands, Umbral Mantle, and Mox Opal.  It's an interesting trade to add in yet another 2 card win-con at the cost of non artifact cards.

I have a few questions:

1.)  Why run Trinisphere at all in this kind of deck?  You might find that a silly question, but it seems like you are dedicated to winning asap and leaving it up to the opponent to try and stop you.
2.)  What else have you tested against, besides the combo Shop mirror?  Serra, you said you did well with 20 games or so, but against what?  Has either of you played the MUD matchup yet?
3.)  Shax, sometimes the Chalice backfired for me and I'm wondering if it could be something else.  In your list you have the option of Defense Grid (nice sb tech btw, serra).  Maybe I can share another option that I have explored, Thousand-Year Elixir.  This card makes your Metalworkers and Forgemasters essentially have haste, and can untap either.  Since you guys are creature light, I think this is a better alternative than Lightning Greaves since you may only have one creature to equip and won't be able to target Metalworker with Staff.  Seriously, check it out.

You guys went a completely different route than I did with Forgemaster.  My list is more resilient, but nowhere near as explosive.  I'm more concerned with FoW and being on the draw.  Both lists are fun as hell to goldfish, I just wonder if the explosiveness is worth the trade off.  Also, lists like these are probably the best use for Serum Powder I've seen for ANY Shop deck.  Nice job.

Btw, I think Metalworker has officially lost his pariah status.

[Troy_Costisick]

3 x Umbral Tie

Is this Umbral Mantle?

[serracollector]

@madmanmike: thank you very much first off.  Yeah I played against about 10 Gush decks, most were tendrils/brainfreeze, one was a helm/sensies divingin top loop, which I found interesting.  On the start those games were mainly "did I win the coin flip, did my opponent have FoW in their opening hand?".  It was actually funny, I convinced several players to play me a few games in a row, to see how consistent I was, and you have no idea how funny it is to see a Blue control player Mull down to 4-5 cards to get that first turn FOW in hand.  Turning my first turn FM or MW into a Hymn when they only had 4-5 cards anyways was never a bad thing. But the storm matchup is still 50/50 I would say.  After siding tho, it jumps in your favor with Defense Grid (or Thorn if you prefer) and Lodestone.  Making that Gush cost 1 more REALLY slows them down.

I also beat 4 differnt oath builds, 2 elephant, 1 Tyrant Oath, and 1 Emrakul/Tinker bot oath. I will give one scenerio I found funny, and also made my inclusion of Helm a must IMO.  I went first turn MW, he went first turn Oath, I then made 17 mana between MW and artifact accelerants (key ftw) and used a Helm to mill them for 13, stealing their elephant, destroying thier Oath, and thier land and Mox.  Next turn I went off.  Helm is great in this "tinker bot/oath fatty" age of magic even without Leyline.

I only got to play 3 MUD matchs, and I won all of them easily, once you get metalworker into play, unless they got something ridiculous like first turn Duplicant, you just win, and getting first turn MW is cake with 4 serum/proper mulliganning.  This deck can still easily go off with only 4-5 cards in hand.

Dredge is also a coinflip.  the difference is, is that Dredge can "punt" if they draw non-dredge cards or don't get their bridges.  Also, if you sac a MW or FM to itself, it removes the bridges.  Also me having the maindeck leylines makes this mathcup very favorable for me.  What do they chain of vapor or Claim, the metalworker, the forgemaster or the Leyline?  Very hard spot for dredge to be in g1, g2, or g3.

I think the biggest problems I am having with this deck is the limitations of a 15 card SB.  I would like to have 8 sphere affects (either thorn/lodestone or Defense grid and thorn or Lodestone), but I sometimes want chalice, just because a chalice for 1 stops preordain, top deck tutors, claims, chain of vapor, spell pierce, thoughseize, and welders (probably others I am missing) that are all banes to this deck.  Also an early chalice for 2 stops most fishy critters (goyf, pridemage, gaddockteeg, and NULL ROD).  But wat to drop from SB for 4 chalice?

Leyline of Sanctity I was iffy on at first and me and shax discussed it alot, but it is absolutely nuts.  Not only does it stop the Oath/Hurk's, but stops Tendrils, Brainfreeze, Fact or Fiction, Gifts, and TS/Duress affects.  The fact that we run 4 serum powders makes the Leylines so much better.  But as stated earlier I decided to make the Void Leylines maindeck, as they are so good against Oath/Dredge/Bazaar (in general), and Y will.  Also even if you dont get the leyline in opening hand, remember u can tutor for Lotus to hard cast it with Forgemaster.  

Thousand-Year Elixir is cool, BUT, it costs 3, which means it is taking up the spot of either first turn Worker/Trinisphere or Forgemaster.  I know it gives haste, BUT, Voltaic Key does the same thing for ALL your artifacts, not just the creatures, and only costs 1 vs 3.  TYE would just be "keys 5-8" I would think, but cost more.  Not needed I would think.  Good idea tho.

Trinisphere is in there because it simply wins games.  A first turn resolved Trini = a 2nd turn win.  Plain an simple.  That card, along with time Vault just increases the simple "oops I win" factor by A LOT.  Especially with the unrestriction of Gush.

Thanks to everyone who has posted so far.  I will continue testing, and please continue the ideas and comments.

[Justin]

Thank you for posting this. I built something very similar to serracolector's list after the spoiling of Tinkerbot but used the Painter/Stone combo in place of the Helm/Leyline combo, since it seemed more cooperative with the manacurve (outside of an opening Leyline). It does require more non-workshop mana due to the activation cost of Grindstone. Good luck with the design!

[madmanmike25]

Dear lord, could you imagine the monstrosity of a deck that would contain:

Painter+Grindstone
Leyline+Helm
Metalworker+Staff
Metalworker+Mantle
Time Vault+Key

All it's missing is some janky Rings of Brighthearth combo!

[serracollector]

I tried the painter/grindstone combo, BUT the problem is is that Painter has NO synergy with anything else in the deck, and neither does grindstone.  Leyline actually hurts a lot of decks in vintage, and Helm can win games just by itself.  I have stolen welders, metalworkers, Tinker Bots, Elephants, and Trygon on more than 1 occasion.  Those 2 cards are good anyways unlike painter/grindstone.  Just like staff is good anyways, and Voltaic Key is good anyways.  The only card in my decklist that isn't completely synergistic is Umbral Mantle, but i can't really think of any other "oops I win" cards that work so well with metalworker other than Staff.

[SiegeX]

All it's missing is some janky Rings of Brighthearth combo!

You ruined my surprise about Rings of Brighthearth but janky it is not in this deck; it breaks Forgemaster in half as it fetches you both key and vault in one activation.  Also, if you sub in Basalt Monolith for Grim Monolith, it combos to make infi mana.  It also turns top into  : Draw a card.  I'm sure I'm missing other synergies it has with cards this deck already plays.

[Bibendum]

Rings say if its not a mana ability.

[SiegeX]

Rings say if its not a mana ability.

You don't copy the mana ability, you copy this ability:

: Untap Basalt Monolith.

The sequence is as follows:

• Tap Basalt Monolith for
• Pay to activate the Untap ability -- this triggers Rings of Brighthearth
• Pay (from external sources) to copy the untap ability
• Untap copy resolves -- Monolith untaps
• Tap monolith for -- this doesn't use the stack, floating in pool
• Original untap resolves
• Tap monolith for -- floating in pool

You just paid mana to make .[/list]

[Bibendum]

yea i got the sequence, i just read brighthearth wrong was all.

[serracollector]

thanks for the replies, and Brighthearth is an interesting card, but I think in this deck it is the epitome of "win more".  I did take the advice tho of Thousand-Year Elixir, and replaced the 3 Umbral Mantles in my deck for them.

This is what my current monstrosity is:

Lands (13)
4 x Mishra's Workshop
4 x City of Traitors
4 x Ancient Tomb
1 x Tolarian Academy

Combo Pieces:(32)
4 x Metalworker
4 x Staff of Domination
4 x Voltaic Key
4 x Grim Monolith
4 x Kuldotha Forgemaster
4 x Helm of Obedience
4 x Leyline of the Void
1 x Time Vault
3 x Umbral Tie Mantle 3 x Thousand-Year Elixir
Utility:(5)
4 x Serum Powder
1 x Trinisphere
1 x Memory Jar

Mana Artifacts:(9)
1 x Black Lotus
5 x Moxen
1 x Sol Ring
1 x Mana Vault
1 x Mana Crypt

Sideboard:
4 x Leyline of Sanctity
4 x Defense Grid 4 x Chalice of the Void
4 x Lodestone Golem
1 x Pithing Needle 3 x Wurmcoil Engine
2 x Jester's cap

The sideboard is 100% against Storm, Oath, and Null Rod decks.  More or less turning it into an aggro build against Rod with Wurmcoil and Lodestone, or going with Leyline, Lodestone, and Chalice against storm/Oath.  
Testing has been hard lately since either people on MWS say "thats n00b" and quit, or they just quit when I go off on turn 2 lol.  Now people recognize my name and won't play me :-/
But from the few games I have completed, I have gotten many good compliments, and the deck has been amazing.

[Shax]

Lands:
1 Tolarian Academy
4 Mishra's Workshop
4 Ancient Tomb
2 Crystal Vein
4 City of Traitors

There is no way I'd play a mana base like this without Crucible of Worlds.  You've got 7 lands that could easily end up in your graveyard during the course of a game without your opponent having to break a sweat and no way to get them back.  I understand you're going for combo more than control (love the inclusion of MemJar) but the fragility of this land set is ridiculous.  You are just asking to get totally hosed by any deck with 5 Wastes.  I can see an opening hand of 4 busniess spells but with City of Traitors, Crystal Vein, and Tolarian Academy as the lands- and you'd have to mulligan that hand!

EDIT:  I do like your inclusion of Mox Opal, here.  It makes good sense in this deck.  Have you tried artifact lands like maybe Darksteel Citadel or maybe even Ancient Den.  I know it would still be a stretch, but Den, Lotus, Opal, and Pearl make conceivable that you could hard cast LotS if the game went long and you still needed it as an answer.

Well, as much as I like Crucible of Worlds. This isn't about trying to play a long game, this is Shop Combo. 15 Lands sounds about right. You have 10 2 Mana producing lands. 4 3 Mana, and then one conditional producer in Tolarian. The name of the game is to have a hot opening hand, and good chances are we'll have a land in each hand to make the mana. Why tell me to not use the lands that destroy theirselves if we're trying to make a push for mana anyways? I'd rather have the two mana now, and lose a land, than have Ancient Den or Citadel for a extra turn sitting there. Chances are my opponent has Force of Will, then he has Force of Will. If not he probably lost from the explosiveness the deck sits on since the combo pieces are 4 ofs except vault. I like the idea of Den since it's artifact and I can feed Kuldotha with my lands that way. But tbh anytime I use Kuldotha to win he's eating stuff like Chalice and Moxen/used artifact source.

As ar as I can tell, everyone's heads are way to stuck up Gush to pay attention to little Shop Combo. It should be looked at as the clean up for other MUD, unless they're running Rods. This deck plays the game of Magic well because we use Powders to find broken things. Most of the time we can find that one broken card, plus another must counter. And we can race the other combo decks in the format pretty well because all of our combos except umbral mantle win automatically. But even then umbral mantle is a fast win condition with worker. Since we're easily game loss to Null Rod, what kind of hate would you want to pack to stop this? Putting a color in here makes you slower by the odds, so maybe theres an answer some other way.

[serracollector]

So far like I posted above the best thing we have against Null rod is Chalice for 2, which only stops our grims (or timevault if its in your hand), and making some aggro out of it.  A first turn Wurmcoil Engine/Lodestone against fishy Rod deck is usually gg. Dont forget that Kuldotha can be a beefy beater too.  My main problem is when I side in Leylline of Sanctity I find myself wanted to side out the Leyline of the Void, but then my Helm combo gets nullified.  Like I stated earlier my biggest problem is figuring out wat to take out and wat to side in.  Shax any insight on this?

[Shax]

I think Chalice is the good fight. If we play Helm, we still lose to Null Rod. Maybe board in some dirty artifact tricks..like Wormcoil/Lodestone. Boarding in artifact beats means their beats are obsolete for the most part as long as we have our big mana to fight back when they Null Rod. Razormane sounds good, but anything that makes me discard makes me sick except Ichorid. Some mix of overcosted beats seems like the best answer, even if it looks shallow. Duplicant is good at fighting everything. I think him being a 4-of for Mirror Match/MUD/Tinker Target other than Inky is wonderful. He stops Fish beats since he's eating their best creature on the board regardless of Null Rod. Wormcoil might be just as sick, or pick your poison with Lodestone/Precursor. I really like Precursor for Blue since they usually use Hurkyl's on us and we board in Leyline for some luck. Against aggro definately Wormcoil or Precursor. Duplicant somewhere in there as well. To lessen the blow on our SB's, running shit like Helm might be out of the ballpark if you want to handle threats G2 G3.

[serracollector]

Your idea of duplicant in the side made me think of something else..if we want complete redundancy for combo parts, would't Sculpting steel be an amazing sb, maybe maindeck inclusion? 

And even when I side out the leyline of the voids for sanctity's, I still sometimes keep the Helms in, just for general use.  Helm by itself has won me many matches when they force my combo, and I am out of gas.  Sometimes just with a "oops I milled your y will", or by stealing a creature, and since most creatures today have 2 or more uses, its major CA in itself.  Thanks for the confidant.  Thanks for your duplicant I remove your lodestone. etc. etc.

Helm in this meta is great even by itself due to the fact that the only creatures ran in decks are AMAZING creatures.  Beating someone down with their own goyf is fun, and helm probably fueled him to a 5/6 also.

I have to keep helm. 

Against Null rod I side out the 4 helm and 4 leyline for the 4 lodestone, 4 Chalice, and 3 TYE for the 3 wurmcoil.  It has won me games.  Sometimes it has not.  Null Rod into Kataki is pretty much gg.

So in testing fish has been one of my worst matchups due to Kataki, Energy flux, Claim, Pridemage, Meddling Mage and Null Rod.  Maybe you are right, maybe duplicant is the way to go.

I was honestly gonna start testing two EON hub in my sb, and if it works well maybe up it to 3.  Even if it gives you 1 turn before they claim it, thats 1 turn in this insane combo deck.
In this Kataki, Energy Flux, Dark confidant, Smoke, tanglewire, oath meta, and how fast this deck ramps out mana, I think it has merit.

[Shax]

I really like a singleton Darksteel Colossus and Sundering Titan in here, 7/10 and DSC are easier to hardcast than what one would think in here since we make so much mana, and they are the best Forgemaster targets besides Trinisphere and Memory Jar for sure. This deck has been destroying stuff like Gush. But, appears to be able to lose to random Fish since they pack lots of artifact hate and Null Rod!! against you. Decks with a chance to out race you knock you out sometimes for sure. The key here is to know what hands to keep utilizing Serum Powder.

[Shax]

Today, I tested against MUD with Null Rod maindeck and had surprising results. First game went to the Null Rod MUD, because of Null Rod and Lodestone Golem. Second game I board in 4 Dups, and 3 Engine. I open with Serum Powder, rfg my hand. The 7 drawn had Workshop,Time Vault, Key, Mox. G3. In G3 he plays turn one Null Rod with workshop out. I comeback with wasteland and use Metalworker beats with Lodestone to kill him.
The question is, do you think MUD with Time Vault is superior to other forms of hate (ie* Null Rod) in MUD? As I'm typing this I'm playing another MUD, first game goes to Vault-Key, second game goes to Smokestack Crucible, and then this final game was won on the back of Kuldotha finding Time Vault. I think the longer the format goes on, and people will come to terms on the real power of Vault compared to everything else.

[Portalis]

is Kuldotha Forgemaster great for this deck? seems the casting cost to high? or if you put him out it's pretty much game?

[serracollector]

Well in my version of the deck, if you have either a Voltaic Key, Time Vault, or Leyline in your opening hand with Forgemaster, and you cast forgemaster, its gg turn 2.

Forgemaster also gets around chalice for 1 or 2, and it provides a beatstick/blocker.

[Shax]

Forgemaster to this deck, is the exact same effect of Tezzerett in Tezzerett decks. It surprises opponents for the fact if it's by itself, next turn you get A:Memory Jar, B: Combo Piece, or C:Something super disruptive like Trinisphere or Sundering Titan. These are the routes to victory with Forgemaster. And if Null Rod isn't on the table, there hasn't been a game where I haven't won if I activate Kuldotha in the game. It's just Tezzerett with Null Rod drawbacks, but like serra said, it is a creature, and a artifact. The 5 toughness is very relevant for random bolts and absorbing damage.

[Portalis]

cool thanks for the info. i went to ebay to see how crazy the prices was on these dudes but to my surprise i picked up a playset for $1.95 just incase these guys go nuts lol.

[znoyes]

Hi,

I have been very impressed with this deck.
Myr Battlesphere could be your forgemaster creature target of choice, as he costs the least of such bombs and is thus easiest to cast and he finishes the game in short order etc. I think that you could make the sideboard a little more neat by putting 4 Lodestone golum maindeck. Turn 1 golum probably = gg 80% of the time against 80% of the decks in vintage (similar to trinisphere) and it at least clears the way to win next turn. This also makes you more resilient against null rod. This clears up the board for cards like sphere of resistance or other things for the storm and fish matchup.

[znoyes]

Hi,

Upon more testing, I found that 4x maindeck wurmcoil engines are really good. I found that serum powder was not very effective, as you don't want to do much mulliganing as you do with dredge. So I swaped out powders for wurmcoils. Wurmcoil along with lodestone give the deck an effective way to deal with null rod from game 1, as your opponent may be able to keep you off your combo, but your creatures clean house anyway.