Belcher with Mox Opal

[GrandpaBelcher]

So I've been thinking about Mox Opal, and what it could replace.  With 19 mana artifacts in the deck besides potential Opals, I think you could definitely find room for two or three (though this is a card that you never want to draw two of. It will certainly make casting blue bombs easier. Swapping 1 for one Chrome Mox seems like a good idea, because 1x Opal 1x Chrome seems a lot better than 2x of either. The question is: what mana leaves for the second opal? I'm leaning towards Manamorphose, but I'm open to suggestions.

The deck actually has 25 artifacts as it stands
4 Goblin Charbelcher (can topdeck into)
1 Memory Jar (probably not)
4x Chrome Mox
4x Grim Monolith
1x Mox Emerald
1x Mox Jet
1x Mox Pearl
1x Mox Ruby
1x Mox Sapphire
1x Black Lotus
1x Lotus Petal
1x Lion’s Eye Diamond
1x Mana Crypt
1x Mana Vault
1x Sol Ring

I think there are a few of us all working on different versions of this deck.  Maybe we can all work through and try to achieve one list here.

Personally, though I had some initial doubts about being able to get Mox Opal active and working through it's legendary status, I think it's going to be a must-have for Belcher in both Vintage and Legacy.  The drawbacks are negligible, and the benefits of more free mana and color fixing are just too great to ignore.  You can continue to play Belcher without Mox Opal, but I think you're missing out.

A few observations from my testing:

1.  Legendary is rarely a drawback.  Like Chrome Mox, you don't like to see more than one Mox Opal in your opening hand.  Luckily, it doesn't happen very often, not often enough to be a concern anyway.  Plus, though it's ugly, you can use extra Mox Opals.  For example, if you're about to Wheel or Jar, you can tap your Opal, cast a second one to destroy it, and be able to use a third one if you draw it.  Like I said, ugly, but it works.  Also, when Belcher is expecting to win the game on turn two, you shouldn't have to worry about drawing extra Opals in the long run.

2.  Having enough artifacts is critical.  I would hate to have a deck where you're consistently drawing Mox Opal with only one other cheap artifact.  In my list below I have 28 including Time Vault and Grim Monolith, but not including Belchers or Jar.  I know madmanmike has a list with Chromatic Spheres that would help do the same thing.  Converting Spirit Guides into artifacts (and storm!) is going to be very helpful.

3.  With Chrome Mox and Mox Opal, there's definitely no reason to run lands.  Ask Matt Hazard.  Fuck Taiga.

4.  Mox Opal makes you more susceptible to Workshops on the draw.  The list I have is exceptionally weak to Chalice at 0 or Sphere effects mainboard.  Post-board, we have been trying Leyline of Anticipation with some success.  Having more Spirit Guides (like in the original RG Lists) is also helpful.

5.  Mox Opal (and Monolith-Key) are awesome as permanent mana sources. As weak as Opal makes you on the draw, you're actually more likely to win on the play if Belcher resolves, because it's more likely that you can untap and win with mana already on board.  Monolith and Key (with a mana available, obviously) make it very easy to reload because you only have to draw the threat, not mana and the threat.

Here's the list I have been playing.  Matt Hazard also played this at the GYGO tournament this weekend:

4x Goblin Charbelcher
1x Time Vault
4x Voltaic Key
4x Empty the Warrens
1x Necropotence
1x Vampiric Tutor
1x Yawgmoth's Will
1x Memory Jar
1x Imperial Seal
1x Demonic Tutor
1x Demonic Consultation
1x Wheel of Fortune

4x Dark Ritual
4x Cabal Ritual
4x Grim Monolith
4x Chrome Mox
4x Mox Opal
4x Simian Spirit Guide
1x Sol Ring
1x Mana Crypt
1x Mana Vault
1x Lotus Petal
1x Black Lotus
1x Lion’s Eye Diamond
1x Mox Emerald
1x Mox Jet
1x Mox Pearl
1x Mox Ruby
1x Mox Sapphire

4x Street Wraith

Sideboard
4x Leyline of Anticipation
4x Tormod's Crypt
3x Goblin Welder
3x Elvish Spirit Guide
1x Sadistic Sacrament (maybe)

I'm considering dropping the Street Wraiths, Imperial Seal, and Vampiric Tutor (which all work great together) for Tinker, some Welders, some ESGs, and some Chromatic Stars.  I'm not sure the best combination of those.  Tinker is an obvious omission. Welder is strong against almost everything as a backup and utility plan.  ESGs help against Shops on the draw and should probably be a four-of post board.  Chromatic Stars are extra artifacts for Mox Opal and cycle.

What has everyone else been doing?

[Ozymandias]

I really don't know about the topdeck tutors-they seem pretty slow. Even Yawgwin seems like a stretch given that you can't generate much advantage from it until a point where you are most likely losing.

I calculated the probabilities of having multiples of Mox Opal and Chrome Mox in your hand is, and having them as a pair.

Having 0 chrome mox and 0 mox opal in your opening hand has a probability of 0.34
1 and 0 is 0.21
0 and 1 is 0.21
1 and 1 is 0.10
2 and 0 is 0.04
0 and 2 is 0.04

Basically, it seems like 85% of the time, you will have no problem in your opener with pairs of moxen. So, we start with the obvious:

4 Goblin Charbelcher
4 Empty the Warrens.
1 Memory Jar
4 Mox Opal
4 Chrome Mox
7 Solomoxen
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mana Vault
1 Lotus Petal
1 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Grim Monolith
4 Simian Spirit Guide
1 Wheel of Fortune

These 37 cards are effectively untouchable in my opinion. ETW is valuable enough in punching through Force to keep red in the deck singlehandedly, and once you have R, SSG and Wheel seem obvious.

The question is where to go from here? Some options:

Artifacts: Vault-Key, Serum Powder
White: None I can think of
Green: Living Wish, ESG, Tinder Wall, Manamorphose
Black: Tutors, YawgWill, Necro, Rituals, Street Wraith
Red: Rituals, Welder, manamorphose
Blue: Tinker, Twister, Windfall.

I think the limiting factor here is production of colored mana. You are looking at 4 opal, lotus, petal, mox for a total of 7 initial colored mana sources, plus guides for R and G. This means about a 60% likelihood of having accest to U or B in the opener, and about an 80% chance for R or G. This is naturally a strong draw in favor of RG. Now, I'm aware manamorphose exists, but that's a) color dependent, b) sucks to have countered and c) will get countered by competent opponents. So I think Morphose has to go, at least preliminarily. Let's look at green more closely then.

Living Wish is a card with many hats. It can find you a win condition (Storm Entity), an answer to hate (Ingot Chewer), 1-card wrecking balls (Magus of the Moon or whatever) regrowth of a win condition (Goblin Welder) even serve as a simple SuperRitual (Mishra's Workshop). So, if we add in 4 Living Wish and 4 ESG, that gets us to 45. 3 Goblin Welder can bring that up to 48, because if we're on red, there's no better way to beat a counter-wall or weld out a Null Rod or whatever. Now we are at 14 action spells, and 34 mana sources. I think we can safely add Tinder Wall and Rite of Flame, as they are our on-color rituals with the least mana requirements. That gets us to 56. I would round this build out with either more rituals or street wraith or Guttural Response (never seemed too good, but who really knows?). SO all told, we have something like this:

4 Living Wish
4 Goblin Charbelcher
4 Empty the Warrens
1 Wheel of Fortune
1 Memory Jar
4 Mox Opal
4 Chrome Mox
7 Solomoxen
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mana Vault
1 Lotus Petal
1 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Grim Monolith
4 Simian Spirit Guide
3 Goblin Welder
4 Tinder Wall
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Rite of Flame
4 Flex Slot (I would probably make one of these Channel for the HURRRR factor)

 If we do go with Manamorphose, then we could easily make that the final slots, and take up the 4 Living Wish slots with Tinker, Demonic Consulation, Demonic Tutor, and Timetwister (U and B are equally difficult to make). You sacrifice the "protection" of Response in return for being able to run game-breaking bombs in 4 colors. In this build, I would probably cut 2 Wall for Channel and Welder, and maybe even the other two. Anyway, those are my thoughts.

[TopSecret]

Tinker seems really strong since you play Time Vault + 4 Keys.

Also, and this may be jank advice but I would assume you've heard all the normal kinds of feedback,
do you typically get enough artifacts to cast Thoughtcast?

You could cut Wraiths and topdeck tutors for Manamorphose and some combination of Ancestral, Tinker, and Thoughtcasts.
(Time Twister and Windfall are other potential maindeck inclusions.)

Then with maindeck blue cards, you could change the sideboard to something like 4 Leyline of Anticipation, 4 Force of Will, x Hurkyl's Recall/Rebuild (you play so many mana artifacts!), x Master of Etherium/Repeal, and maybe a Tolarian Academy for the MUD Matchup.

[madmanmike25]

Tinker is an obvious omission.

Why is that so?  To me Tinker is an obvious inclusion.  Tinkering into MemJar  is draw 7 for 3.  Belcher #5, sounds good which I might add costs only 6 mana total with activation.  In your list you have Will so Tinker for Lotus helps add storm.  A lot of storm since you replay the sacc'ed artifact and Lotus.  And yeah it gets Vault/Key since you run that.  I'm really curious as what makes Tinker an obvious omission   I'll give you a hint:  I don't think you need 4 Keys.

Whoa, no love for Channel!?  Come on, Belcher is really the only deck that can run that restricted bomb and you aren't gonna do it?  Put back in ESG's because even a few Opals will help you get GG for Channel....which ironically is usually gg.

My main concern is how good are Chromes and Opals as 4-of's?  My list only had 3 Opals because Opal #1 gets u mana, Opal #2 kills itself and Opal#1.  Opal #3 gets you mana again.  It's easy to guess what Opal#4 does.

Also you run Wheel and Jar but not Twister?  Not sure about that.  And Recall is way too good not to run if you can now get U mana more readily.

I think I'lll take Belcher to the next tourny which I'm sure will be Shop heavy.  I'll let you know if I do.

[GrandpaBelcher]

Tinker is an obvious omission.

Why is that so?  To me Tinker is an obvious inclusion. 

Mike, that's exactly what I'm saying.  That's why I'm putting Tinker back in.

Anyway, regarding Channel and all of those other things.  I think there are a lot of "must includes" and "should includes" in Belcher.  Ozy's list:

4 Goblin Charbelcher
4 Empty the Warrens.
1 Memory Jar
4 Mox Opal
4 Chrome Mox
7 Solomoxen
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mana Vault
1 Lotus Petal
1 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Grim Monolith
4 Simian Spirit Guide
1 Wheel of Fortune

Is a pretty good start, though I'm not sure I would include Empty the Warrens (at least all four copies) on the "must include" list, and Grim Monolith is only there because Mox Opal is there.

I find that against a lot of blue decks (Tezzeret, Gush, Oath, etc.) if I Empty for less than 10 goblins, they can just race me, either by tutoring for mass removal or by tutoring for the win.  Empty does get through Force of Will, but it's not as effective as "Bang, you're dead."  The four color list I had been playing before Mox Opal did not have Empty the Warrens maindeck, and I had a good amount of success with it.  For the sake of argument, though, and because Empty the Warrens is still strong (gets around Null Rod, Pithing Needle, Leyline of Sanctity, etc.) let's leave them on the list and take all of those cards as a given.

That's already 37 cards.  That's a lot.  And several of the cards that are next on the list of possibilities are unrestricted -- ESGs, rituals of all kinds, Voltaic Keys, Welders, Tinder Walls, Manamorphoses, etc.  Putting in four cards at a time eats those remaining 23 slots pretty quickly!

I decided pretty early that I was going to go mostly Black-Red so that I could forgo ESGs because they don't cast Dark Ritual, don't create storm, and aren't a permanent mana source.  Those are pretty big drawbacks now.  Focusing on Black also let me run a complete tutor package (including Street Wraith to make the Vampiric Tutor and Imperial Seal good) for Time Vault.

So my 23 cards were: 4 Dark Rituals, 4 Cabal Rituals, 4 Voltaic Keys, 4 Street Wraith, Imperial, Vampiric, Demonic, other Demonic, Necro, Time Vault, and Yawgwill.  And this has gone really well.  Dark Ritual is leagues better than all of the red rituals.  Cabal Ritual compares favorably with all other rituals except for Rite of Flame.  Voltaic Key makes Grim Monolith not suck (and really, Monolith is not that good without it) and lets me run Time Vault, which is free wins and cheap.  The Demonic tutors definitely make the cut as extra threats or mana.  The Street Wraiths, Imperial, and Vampiric, all work together, and the Street Wraiths are never dead.  Necro and Dark Ritual are also good game.  And with the full tutor package, Yawgmoth's Will is finally a game winner in Belcher.

I'm not saying those are the perfect 23, but they're all defensible.  I definitely haven't missed, for example, Channel, which is still, in the end, just another mana producer and is hard to use when most of your mana sources make black, red, and colorless mana.

Mox Opal makes it easier to run singleton power cards, like the Tinker that I omitted earlier, and potentially Twister.  But I'm not inclined to go out of my way to run green, when I can run better, more powerful cards in other colors (except White, which really doesn't offer anything).

Lastly, yes, you definitely want Opal and Chrome as four-ofs.  Having one of each in your opening hand is great, and you want them in your opening hand because when else are you going to see them?  It's not like you're expecting to still be playing on turn four.

[Ozymandias]

If you look at my post I calculated the probabilities of hitting various opal/chrome configs in your opening hand. Basically you only get screwed by dubs chrome or dubs opal about 15 percent of the time.

I think ETW is a must-include not for game 1, because a lot of times people will keep hands that can beat a belcher games 2 and 3. For instance, if you belch the guy out g1, and his opener in g2 has Spell Pierce and Force, he's going to keep. Then you run your mana sources or whatever into Empty the Warrens and win from there. ETW is also better after mulligans because it's the easiest wincon to cast and use.

In the 4-color build, I would go with consult, tutor, tinker, and twister because they a) Only have one colored mana in their cost and b) do something on the turn they show up, without help. The really dubious slots now become the 4 Rite of Flame and 4 Tinder Wall, but you probably do want to cast manamorphose a lot in this deck.

[madmanmike25]

I really don't know about the topdeck tutors-they seem pretty slow.

I'm going to have to agree on this.  I tested Lochs list and even with Street Wraith I didn't like the topdeck tutors.  Btw Street Wraith has to go imo, there's nothing worse than a mulligan with one of these guys.

Etw has been winning most of my games.  I think a hand that can get storm for 4 and make 10 tokens is prefectly fine.  Works good with Draw 7's if your opponent gets a counter.  Sometimes they counter your mana, but its not hard to get to 4 mana so often they just give you 2 more tokens.

Lastly, yes, you definitely want Opal and Chrome as four-ofs.  Having one of each in your opening hand is great, and you want them in your opening hand because when else are you going to see them?

When I tested your list I really didn't like having one of each in my opening hand.  Maybe those were just the cards I was dealt, but it led to clunky and unkeepable hands.

I still think 4 Keys is too many.  They are dead unless you have Grim Monolith, Time Vault, or Mana Vault.  Mana Crypt and Sol Ring just break even on mana.

[GrandpaBelcher]

I still think 4 Keys is too many.  They are dead unless you have Grim Monolith, Time Vault, or Mana Vault.  Mana Crypt and Sol Ring just break even on mana.

Here's my thing, though.  I don't think Grim Monolith is good enough to run if you're not going to have a Key in play with it.  It costs two, only makes colorless, and only nets one mana.  It doesn't cast anything except Time Vault without help, and then you definitely want Key with it.  Two Grim Monoliths cast Belcher, but so does one Grim Monolith and a Voltaic Key, and having Monolith and Key means you can activate Belcher next turn.  Plus, like I said before, having Key and Monolith in play (and another mana) means that you have the very near ability to cast any threat you topdeck.  This is unlike previous versions of the deck where you had to wait to draw the threat AND mana; now you can just draw the threat.

When I started testing, I started with two keys because, like you, I thought they wouldn't help me win.  Soon I had added a third and then a fourth because I found out how useful they are.  In my opinion, no Key means no Monolith means Mox Opal doesn't come online as often means we're probably not better off adding Opal.

[Ozymandias]

Some more math. By my count, there are 7 cards in the deck (Monolith, Mana Vault, Mana Crypt, Sol Ring) that make a Key playable. Your chances of getting a Key with a playset are 40%. Your chances of opening with a key and one of the cards above is 18.8%. If you add in a hurrlicious Time Vault, your chances improve to 21.5%, which means that 50% of the time that you open with the Key, it is a chromatic sphere that doesn't cantrip. It's a colorless +1 mana31% of the time, a +1 storm -0 mana card 13% of the time, and an instawin 6% of the time. I guess its natural competition is Tinder wall/Rite of Flame which is +1 mana +1 Storm that needs G or R 100% of the time. Also, nobody is forcing you to cast Key if you need the mana for other things.  So if I were to run Key, I would run it as follows:

1 Tinker
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Demonic Consultation
1 Timetwister
1 Windfall
1 Channel
4 Goblin Charbelcher
4 Empty the Warrens
1 Wheel of Fortune
1 Memory Jar
4 Voltaic Key
1 Time Vault
4 Mox Opal
4 Chrome Mox
7 Solomoxen
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mana Vault
1 Lotus Petal
1 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Grim Monolith
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Goblin Welder
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Manamorphose

I cut all the rites and Walls for more bombs and the vault/key combo. I'll do some goldfishing now.

[Ozymandias]

Goldfish results:

G1: Mull to 6 (2x Key, vault, chrome mox, ESG, off-color mox) into Time Vault t1, double key t2ypt
G2: Crypt into Vault into Opal into Welder with SSG, belcher and channel in hand. draw Tinker, Tinker away crypt or opal for key, weld crypt or opal back in for infinite turns. If you suspect counters, you can just cast belcher and win on upkeep t3
G3: Petal, Vault, Spirit Guide, charbelcher, key, opal, consult. opal, petal, remove guide for key, consult for lotus if you want to win that turn. I went for it and did go infy.
G4: Mull to oblivion
g5: Chrome mox, mox pearl, goblin welder, mox opal, voltaic key, goblin charbelcher. Pearl, opal, mox imprinting welder, dtutor for lotus, cast belcher, win. you can also dtutor for vault and win the next turn, or play conservatively, turning on metalcraft, casting welder, and going for the win next turn.
g6: Opal, petal, jet, key, guide, windfall, consult. Opal->petal->Jet, and then you either consult for vault and cast it+key (10% chance of death, but wins next turn IIRC), or cast windfall (happens to turn up a t1 belcher)
g7: welder, key, tutor, monolith, belcher, ruby, emerald. Emerald->Ruby->Key->Monolith->untap->belcher. Next turn belcher for win.
g8:  Keep pearl, chrome, opal, welder. Draw crypt and then belcher.
g9: Emerald, Manamorphose, wheel, LED, ESG, Tinker, Windfall. Manamorphose off ESG and emerald making UR Draw jar, draw garbage, and die.
G10: Mull ETW, SSG, Vault, Monolith, Manamorphose, Channel, Twister into consult, jet, chrome, chrome, welder, warrens. Consult for lotus, make 12 goblins.

As it turns out, I underestimated the amount of times key is useful with vault in-deck, because of your extra ways to find it (Tinker, Tutor, Consult.) I find myself liking the four-key build.

[heiner]

So whats the Plan vs 13 sphere Workshop? Win the die Roll?
One sphere is
 basically gg isn't it?

[Tobi]

So whats the Plan vs 13 sphere Workshop? Win the die Roll?
One sphere is
 basically gg isn't it?

Heiner, if you play with 8 Spirit Guides, which you obv should, you can cast Moxen under one Sphere and chain more mana into play this way.
Sphere plus Chalice@0 (or double Sphere) gives you a hard time tough 

[Ramses]

So whats the Plan vs 13 sphere Workshop? Win the die Roll?
One sphere is
 basically gg isn't it?

I've been thinking about this for a while.  I'm wondering if this might be the deck that wants to play with leyline of anticipation.  I love the thought of winning in response to the sphere...  I haven't tested it yet, though.  It might be nothing more than a nifty parlour trick.

[GrandpaBelcher]

So whats the Plan vs 13 sphere Workshop? Win the die Roll?
One sphere is
 basically gg isn't it?

I've been thinking about this for a while.  I'm wondering if this might be the deck that wants to play with leyline of anticipation.  I love the thought of winning in response to the sphere...  I haven't tested it yet, though.  It might be nothing more than a nifty parlour trick.

Most of the plan against MUD/Shops/Stax involves winning the die roll.  Then you win game one, lose game two, and win game three.  This is not actually a terrible plan unless they also have Leyline of Sanctity and you don't have a Time Vault or Empty the Warrens win.  That said, in the list I posted above, I have Leyline of Anticipation in the sideboard for on the draw against Shops.  I haven't had much opportunity to test that, but it has been functional so far.

Racing is also a much better strategy against Shops than trying to blow up their artifacts.

Ozy, I'm interested to hear how your testing with the above list goes.  It looks very strong, though I'm surprised at the lack of Rituals.  Hopefully 13 Moxes and 8 Spirit Guides are enough, especially with 17 total "threats".

[Hillboy]

Is anybody still working on this? I ask because I find it interesting.

Also would something like Spoils of the vault be considered if one was looking to find belcher or etw in a black build being that they are usually four ofs and the likelihood of dying to one should be relatively slim.

[thecman]

Is anybody still working on this? I ask because I find it interesting.

Also would something like Spoils of the vault be considered if one was looking to find belcher or etw in a black build being that they are usually four ofs and the likelihood of dying to one should be relatively slim.

With 53 cards left in the deck (60 minus opening hand) searching for a 4-of with Spoils will do 20+ damage 14% of the time.  By comparison, Consultation for a 1-of with 53 cards exiles the card you're searching for 11.3% of the time.  I don't know about you but that seems a little too risky to me.

For reference with 53 cards remaining odds of 20+ damage: 4-of 14.0%, 3-of 23.3%, 2-of 38.3%, 1-of 62.3%.

[GrandpaBelcher]

I've actually gone back to the RG version, similar to what Ozymandias posted above.  My list has more acceleration and fewer broken cards.  The previous, black-based versions I had were much weaker to Workshops, essentially dead if your opponent started with any Sphere or Chalice on the play.  This version is better (still not great), thanks to eight Spirit Guides and Welders, which are also good against blue.  I'd like to replace Tinker and Timetwister with on-color threats, but there's nothing that approaches their level of "win-the-game."  The best on-color remaining card is probably Living Wish, which can get land, Storm Entity, or a few common answers like Scavenger Folk.

4 Goblin Charbelcher
4 Empty the Warrens
1 Tinker
1 Timetwister
1 Wheel of Fortune
1 Memory Jar
1 Channel
4 Voltaic Key
4 Grim Monolith
4 Mox Opal
4 Chrome Mox
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Sol Ring
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mana Vault
1 Lotus Petal
1 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Rite of Flame
4 Tinder Wall
4 Goblin Welder
 
Sideboard:
4x Leyline of Anticipation
4x Leyline of the Void
2x Serum Powder
2x Storm Entity
3x Nature's Claim

With regard to Spoils of the Vault, I've played it in Legacy and had a few copies in the Vintage BR list I had for a while.  It's not terrible.  Sure, you die to it periodically, but where you see the 14% failure rate, I see the 86% success rate.  Really the problem is that you're just not looking for more tutors.  The first to play are definitely Demonic Consultation and Demonic Tutor (in that order), then Tinker.  Beyond those, I would rather have Vampiric Tutor, Imperial Seal, and Street Wraiths than Spoils, I think.

One more thing to consider with Demonic Consultation is that, if you're going for a Belcher kill, you need to have 20+ cards left in your library.

[thecman]

With regard to Spoils of the Vault, I've played it in Legacy and had a few copies in the Vintage BR list I had for a while.  It's not terrible.  Sure, you die to it periodically, but where you see the 14% failure rate, I see the 86% success rate.

Good piont.  I guess I just hate losing to myself which is a risk you take with a deck like Belcher.

How has Leyline of Anticipation been working out for you?  Do you only ever bring it in against Shops or are there other matchups where you birng them in on the draw?  What do you typically board out?

[Ozymandias]

I've actually gone back to the RG version, similar to what Ozymandias posted above.  My list has more acceleration and fewer broken cards.  The previous, black-based versions I had were much weaker to Workshops, essentially dead if your opponent started with any Sphere or Chalice on the play.  This version is better (still not great), thanks to eight Spirit Guides and Welders, which are also good against blue.  I'd like to replace Tinker and Timetwister with on-color threats, but there's nothing that approaches their level of "win-the-game."  The best on-color remaining card is probably Living Wish, which can get land, Storm Entity, or a few common answers like Scavenger Folk.

Actually, I went in the reverse direction from my other list. I cut the weaker blue bombs and the tutors, and am currently mulling over the Key slots. I can see good arguments in either direction. I was talking with everythingitouchdies, and he suggested Serum Powder, which might be quite good in this version, since it's so redundant.

How is Leyline working out for you? It seems like it could be v. good vs spheres, especially with all the 0cc cards.

[GrandpaBelcher]

Ben (everythingitouchdies) and I talked about Serum Powders a lot a few years ago.  He liked them; I didn't.  It's such a bad topdeck.  With most of our spells, we're happy to get +1 mana (Rite of Flame, Tinder Wall, Moxes).  We're thrilled to get +2 (Mana Crypt, Mana Vault) and extatic to get more than that (Lotus, Channel, LED).  Serum Powder is -2, and unlike MUD decks where you can potentially use it over several turns or activate and attack with Karn, it does very little else.  Welding, I guess, and it makes you less susceptible to mass destruction like Ratchet Bomb and Steel Hellkite, if you can play it before those are relevant, I mean.

Basically, I don't think there are many games so worth winning on turn one that you sacrifice good topdecks (and things like Wheel, Jar, and Twister) after turn one for the opportunity.  The only exception to this is a Workshop matchup with tons of Spheres and Chalices, where not winning on turn one probably means not winning at all.  You can see I have two Serum Powders in the board, to effectively have six Leylines of Anticipation.  I think that's worth it.  They only come in against Shops on the draw, usually for non-permanent mana like Rite of Flames and Tinder Wall.  Usually I bring in the two Storm Entities as well, since they're cheaper to cast when you're running fewer mana.

[Bomberman!]

me and my friends are actually planning to particepate from now on with 3 identical belcher decks... 
i really need help with the side...   

so far... SIDE:
4 ingot chewer    (GOD)
3guttural resp       (not bad)
4 stomr entity
4 deus of calamity..

but it just does not convince me... aside from ingot..
any help would be appreciated 

[GrandpaBelcher]

Guttural Response and Storm Entity are usually okay.  I'm not a huge fan of Ingot Chewer because I don't think it does anything against MUD.  If you're on the draw against MUD and they open with Chalice on one or zero or any Sphere effect, you're already behind.  If they have any sort of hand--meaning they have three lock pieces--one Ingot Chewer is not enough to dig out because it takes so much just to evoke the chewer:

Them:  Sphere.
You:  Spirit Guide, Spirit Guide, Chewer.
Them:  Sphere.
You:  Draw a card.
Them:  Laugh.  Sphere.

You're at 5 cards after you play the Chewer.  Maybe you get something off, but that means you kept the perfect hand: multiple Spirit Guides, four more mana (including one that makes mana for free), a win condition, and an Ingot Chewer.  Shake the snow out of your Christmas hat and win the game.  If you have to mulligan to the Ingot Chewer or are missing any of those other things, you just get buried in artifacts.

My preference is still just to win the game on the play against Workshops.  That's why I like the Leylines of Anticipation: It's like you're on the play every game.  Your results may vary, of course.  That's just what I've found works for me.  Chewer (and Nature's Claim) is good against Null Rod and Pithing Needles, and Claim removes Leyline of Sanctity.

Also, I haven't played Deus without Seething Song.  It's tough to get five colored mana, especially if you're using Grim Monoliths and Voltaic Keys.  I'm not sure you need them with Storm Entities either.  The idea with those cards is to have something out of the board that isn't affected by Rod or Needle and can fight with most creatures if necessary.  Deus is nice because it has some built in disruption; Storm Entity has haste, which sometimes makes it faster.  I've currently been pondering (but haven't tested) Lodestone Golem, which is cheap and has disruption, despite its effect on your plan.

In the list I posted above, with the Leylines of Anticipation and Leylines of the Void in the board, you can probably remove the Leylines of the Void and just race Dredge.  Watch out for Leyline of Sanctity.  If I were building a sideboard for that list, it would look like:

4x Leyline of Anticipation
2x Serum Powder
3x Storm Entity
3x Guttural Response
3x Nature's Claim

Against MUD on the Draw:  -Tinker, -Twister, -2 Empty, -Jar, -1 Key, -1 Monolith, -1 Opal, -LED; +Leylines, +Powders, +Entities
Against MUD on the Play:  No Board.

Against Blue: -Tinker, -Twister, -1 Chrome Mox; +3 Guttural Response

Against Null Rods (Fish): -Tinker, -Twister, -1 Chrome Mox; +3 Nature's Claim

Against Dredge: No Board.

Against anything without Blue: No Board.

[Bomberman!]

i forgot to mention that my list plays seething song and i dont play with voltaic's or the monolith's...  i also run 4 main deck serum.
great idea on the leyline of anticipation..did not think of it, on the ingot i have to say that it saved me allot against mud.. mud has no draw engine so my top decks are just better than there's...  plus magic is also luck so if he can draw 3 lock pieces i can dra 5 I win card's no? 
Ichorid i do not side since testing i see that i'm faster...  they have no counter so gg.
thanks agains on the blue leyline.

[Hillboy]

Leyline of Anticipation looks pretty sweet. Here's an interesting idea. Is it okay to post a link to another website? http://mtgtrinket.blogspot.com/2010/10/brainstorming-chandra-ablaze-in-legacy.html

Someone threw Chandra Ablaze into a Legacy version of belcher I think the idea is neat though perhaps pointless.

[GrandpaBelcher]

If Chandra Ablaze cost one fewer mana, I'd probably give it a serious look.  Iit's on a perpetual list of possibilities, waiting for the one card that makes it playable.  Right now its casting cost is just a bit too high to be reliable.  Putting that into play and using the "Little Wheel" ability seems like it would be real strong.

I really like Seething Song into Deus.  Sometimes people just can't handle it.  They're prepared for a horde of goblins or an artifact, but a 6/6 land destroyer is just too much.  I can't say I agree with the Serum Powder (Pokemon card, etc. etc.) but if it works for you, have a blast.

[kibbe]

Lochinvar81- thanks for the suggestions over in my project goldfish deck. after seeing someone ask if MDT and such were faster than 0-land belcher i started thinking that maybe belcher wasn't a bad way to go. after messing around a bit I'm not sure one is faster than the other but i have found a card that seems to fit perfectly in belcher(especially in the 4 opal builds): ancient stirring. this seems like an absolute no brainer in a build like this. it gets you belcher, either vault or key, robot, any artifact mana you can name, and also can either clear out land(if you are running any) by getting it in you hand or putting it at the bottom of the deck. i did a search on this website and it only seems to get mentioned in shop builds. having messed with it in my tendrils deck and now in a belcher shell it really seems to fit extremely well in this style of fast paced artifact heavy deck. it doesn't get ETW but it gets everything else so maybe a 3 of instaed of the full 4. all of this for 1 green mana! anyway I'll post my list though its not really a 0-land build

project goldfish type b


1 tropical island
1 tolarian academy
4 land grant

1 lotus
5 solo mox
1 petal
1 crypt
1 mana vault
1 sol ring
4 chrome mox
1 mox opal (could easily replace ESG #4 for a second one of these)

4 ESG
3 SSG
4 manamorphose
1 crop rotation
4 ancient stirring

3 helm awakening (this is a PGF deck after all)
4 voltaic key

1 time Vault
2 g belcher
1 emrakul

1 a recall
1 time walk
1 time twister
1 wheel of fortune
1 tinker
3 dream cache
4 preordain

this deck is pretty quick as well. i had a build that was slower but much more resilient and had ETW that could pop out 4-10+ tokens early and then try to race. not as flashy but much more practical. anyway just was wondering about the ancient stirring idea.

Kibbs