JMS version of The Deck

[Mindstab_Thrull]

 OK, we'll try this again..

You never want to cast force of will on principle.  If Bob is heavily played then you need 2 swords, 1 cunning wish, and 1 balance.  Or comparable.

 OK. Please explain what you mean by 'on principle' here. Keep in mind that while Keeper/The Deck were designed on the concept of card advantage, Force of Will was proven to be so strong that it was actually necessary. Chapin suggests in his book Next Level Magic (p88 for those of you that have a copy) that Weissman originally thought the card advantage was too strong for a deck like The Deck, but eventually agreed that yes, four was the right number. To quote on page 89:

He told me he now realized that the battles we were fighting were worth far more than a card, and that if you use a Force of Will to protect an Amnesia or Timetwister, it is not really card disadvantage at all.

 Obviously this goes back quite a few years to when Mind Twist was banned and Amnesia was being run instead (and Counterspell was being used instead of Force of Will), but the point remains: If the card you're protecting (or stopping, as the case may be) is worth more than a card, Force of Will is worth casting.

Swords gives you spot removal for the BOB at one mana which is pretty important and useful against shop.  Wish gives you an alternate way to get rid of a bob and you can even use a card like darkblast of lavadart out of the board or similar.  Balance gives you the means to allow a bob to resolve and then balance away the bob and the card advantage later.

 Spot removal is good when it's needed. Be careful, however, of Cunning Wish and their ilk - as I mentioned to Chapin myself in a thread last year (I'll have to find it if you're interested) discussing his build of The Deck at the time, Cunning Wish (and the other Wishes, by extension) is very much a trap. Make sure you're using is as a tool and not a crutch. What I mean is this:
 People that try building decks often have trouble cutting it down to 60 cards. Some people decide to put Wishes in the maindeck and then cards they want in the sideboard. Watch that you're not falling into this trap yourself. I'm not saying you are, but to be honest, when I saw Chapin's list last year, I felt that he had succumbed to the trap, and if a professional player can fall into it, anyone can.
 The Deck has a large number of tutors, card draw effects, and shuffle effects, as well as a good number of plays to give you time (counterspells, Strips, Shaman, and the like). Your chance of finding the necessary one-of in your deck is rather high. I prefer 'flexible' spot removal maindeck myself, such as Fire/Ice. At worst it pitches to Force. It also takes out Bobs and Welders, and taps Trinisphere, amongst other things. A Sword, Edict, or even Sower is good to have maindeck as well, as most decks run some sort of creature(s) maindeck, even if it's only a Tinkerbot - or Sun Titan. But I don't feel you really need more than one or two cards maindeck to deal with creatures, especially since so many decks (TPS and Oath come to mind) are rather creature light, and you're probably better with artifact bounce instead (see: Hurkyl's Recall, et al). This isn't to say Balance is bad, just that how you use it will be very matchup-dependent, and you don't really want to see yourself trying to use it as a Mind Twist.

We want to surround our opponents key plays.

 Agreed, assuming you mean as in containing so they don't explode.

Against Workshop based decks I still think the best strategy is to ignore the spheres and use them to trap the workshop player, but then again I play max shamans and max wastelands.

 I would presume this means you play in a Workshop-heavy metagame. Against many decks - Oath and Dredge, for example - Shaman does little, and in fact you don't want to be dropping Shaman vs Oath. Against Shop decks, you often need a large amount of mana to start hitting the real threats. Against Crucible, for example, you're talking 7 mana, and Stax is essentially brown-based mana denial.
 Wasteland, on the other hand, I agree is fine to run as four of. Then again, I don't agree you *need* to run four Wastes if you run Crucible, my preferred method in The Deck.

i am not sure you are correct about the blue restricted cards like ponder and brainstorm.  They do not actually increase the likeleyhood of having and answer against Bob or oath or similar, if you are taking out answers to put them in.  They reduce the odds that you have an answer.  They are rather bad against workshop although brainstorm is passable.  They do help you find wasteland however.

 Please explain this. Brainstorm does a number of things. First, it draws you three cards, which is as much as Ancestral Recall. Then it takes two cards from your hand and puts them on top of your library. This is usually one of two things: cards you don't want at that point or soon (now think of all the shuffle effects - tutors, fetchlands, Timetwister and the like - to hide them again), or a card you want to protect from effects like Duress. Ponder, on the other hand, lets you draw any one of the top three cards and reorder the other two, or shuffle your library and draw a fresh random card - one that is likely to, at least, be a card that isn't one of the three you just saw. As a result, these two cards are actually pretty good at digging deeper into your deck to pull up a card you need at a very low investment. And as I mentioned before, between card drawing from cards like these and the amount of tutoring and shuffle effects, you have a pretty good chance of pulling up what you need when you actually need it, if not before then. (Mulligan skills also help, for that matter, as it's like 'free' tutoring for multiple cards.)

You really do want to play Skeletal Scrying: AKA YAWGMOTH's WILL AT INSTANT SPEED.  Play all the baubles out of my graveyard.

Erm..

Skeletal Scrying
XB
Instant
As an additional cost to cast Skeletal Scrying, exile X cards from your graveyard.
You draw X cards and you lose X life.

This isn't remotely close to YawgWill's function. It's more like Braingeyser or Yawgmoth's Bargain than Will. There's no graveyard recursion here, and Wishes don't fetch exiled cards anymore (as of M10). Are you sure this is what you're looking for?

Just my two Sarpadian coppers
Mindstab Thrull

[Marske]

@Mindstab_Thrull,
While you raise some good points (more on that later on) I'd like to get into some questions / views of my own regarding Limitedwholes post.

@Limitedwhole,

You never want to cast force of will on principle.  If Bob is heavily played then you need 2 swords, 1 cunning wish, and 1 balance.  Or comparable.

Swords gives you spot removal for the BOB at one mana which is pretty important and useful against shop.  Wish gives you an alternate way to get rid of a bob and you can even use a card like darkblast of lavadart out of the board or similar.  Balance gives you the means to allow a bob to resolve and then balance away the bob and the card advantage later.
 

Why? I'm not questioning the fact that you need a way to deal with Confidant, there are several ways to go about this however. Balance seems like a double edged sword in this case. It all hinges on a single question:

What is it that Confidant does that's so brutal?

It's certainly not the 2/1 body that's going to be the thing that's sealing the deal. What Confidant does is give near unmatched card advantage to your opponent if they manage to keep it on the table for a few turns. With just 2 STP, Wish (potential other answer) and Balance we can assume you have 4 "solutions" to Confidant. Wish and Balance both come with a huge cost attached though. Which should be kept in mind. You're going to need a mix of spells putting the card advantage struggle back in your favor, along with ways to deal with their "engine". It's not just "Attack Confidant"  that's going to do it.

Against Workshop based decks I still think the best strategy is to ignore the spheres and use them to trap the workshop player, but then again I play max shamans and max wastelands.

This works untill the workshop player gets Crucible (another notch at why LFTL isn't as good as Crucible as the costs to use it effectively skyrocket) I found that just like the shop mirror, this matchup is determined by who has the most mana to work with. Running additional Shamans and maxing out on LD (1 strip, 4 Waste) is probably a good way to deal with this matchup.

i am not sure you are correct about the blue restricted cards like ponder and brainstorm.  They do not actually increase the likeleyhood of having and answer against Bob or oath or similar, if you are taking out answers to put them in.  They reduce the odds that you have an answer.  They are rather bad against workshop although brainstorm is passable.  They do help you find wasteland however.

This is in direct conflict with some of your earlier posts. That being said, this all boils down to a single thing:

How much is having (X or just a single of a certain) the draw spell worth compared to the second answer of any kind?

You have to keep the diminishing values aspect in the back of your mind. How much is STP #2-4 worth overall and how good is the second STP after you've played the first etc? This is a very interesting topic which Brassman, being a friend and a guy I talk to on a near daily basis covered in his SCG article not to long ago (which is still premium as I write this reply)  We've talked about this a LOT and we're both avid supporters of this line of thought.

I think the overall value of having Brainstorm and Ponder (not talking about other cards) in the deck is going to exceed their negative value. Especially when compared to the negative value of having dedicated answers to certain cards in matchups where they quickly turn irrelevant.

You really do want to play Skeletal Scrying: AKA YAWGMOTH's WILL AT INSTANT SPEED.  Play all the baubles out of my graveyard.

Scrying isn't a "bad" card but it's not that good either. I don't think I'd run more then 1-2.

This gets me to Mindstab_Thrull...

Spot removal is good when it's needed. Be careful, however, of Cunning Wish and their ilk - as I mentioned to Chapin myself in a thread last year (I'll have to find it if you're interested) discussing his build of The Deck at the time, Cunning Wish (and the other Wishes, by extension) is very much a trap. Make sure you're using is as a tool and not a crutch.

You and I have had numerous talks on this subject as you're well aware I'm sure. I don't think Patrick fell into that paticular trap as much as I didn't fall into it. You do however raise a valid point which (should) echo throughout all deckbuilding decisions (not limited to building a "The Deck" list mind you) in the fact that all cards should be evaluated based on if they actually provide the effect you need at the cost you're able and willing to pay consistantly (see the article and statements I linked earlier in this post as well)

We want to surround our opponents key plays.

Agreed, assuming you mean as in containing so they don't explode.

This makes no sense to me what so ever. (both statements)

Against Workshop based decks I still think the best strategy is to ignore the spheres and use them to trap the workshop player, but then again I play max shamans and max wastelands.

I would presume this means you play in a Workshop-heavy metagame. Against many decks - Oath and Dredge, for example - Shaman does little, and in fact you don't want to be dropping Shaman vs Oath. Against Shop decks, you often need a large amount of mana to start hitting the real threats. Against Crucible, for example, you're talking 7 mana, and Stax is essentially brown-based mana denial.
 Wasteland, on the other hand, I agree is fine to run as four of. Then again, I don't agree you *need* to run four Wastes if you run Crucible, my preferred method in The Deck.

Well you don't "need" to run anything in any numbers really... point is, to beat this matchup you've got to know what the "battlefield" (for lack of a better word) is going to be about.

This entire matchup (like I said earlier on) revolves around the same thing as the Workshop Mirror. Which isn't essentially "Who plays more broken spells?" but more "Who has more mana?" which brings me to the "core" of what I consider one of pivital questions when playing control (which probably warrants it's own post / topic all together)

[limitedwhole]

Let me explain myself a bit more on two points just for clarification so that you can agree or disagree knowing what I meant.  I will also try to spell better.

1) You never want to force of will on principle.

Force of Will was put in the deck to deal with cards like Wheel of Fortune, Timetwister, etc. (But really it was put in for Necro.)  It is also flexible and can deal with any card.  What I mean by this is we don't want to build a deck that HAS to force of will a BOB allot.  Bob is a valid target for Force of Will.  But Swords is just so much better here.  Their deck doesn't run right without the BOB's.  If you preserve your Force of Will and simply swords the Bob you are very hard to beat here.

So what I mean by this is, don't fall into the trap of deckbuilding where you say, I will just counter that or I will just force that.  Force of Will is not really what you want to be playing against Bob.

2) We want to surround our opponents plays.
By this I mean, Bob is a fundamental play in allot of decks.  We want to be able to swords it.  We want to be able to Counter it.  We want to be able to race it with broken card drawing of our own until we find a swords, and we want to balance it off the table and remove the card advantage gained if we can not do any of these things.  You don't ever want to just lose because your opponent played a Bob because it is common and fundamental.  If Balance is winning me 40% of the losers ( The games I get steamrolled)it is worth its inclusion.

In my opinion MArske your lists fail because they are bad combo-control lists.  You are trying to make the deck into a combo control list instead of a control list.

[ReubenG]

You never want to cast force of will on principle.  If Bob is heavily played then you need 2 swords, 1 cunning wish, and 1 balance.  Or comparable. 

Swords gives you spot removal for the BOB at one mana which is pretty important and useful against shop.  Wish gives you an alternate way to get rid of a bob and you can even use a card like darkblast of lavadart out of the board or similar.  Balance gives you the means to allow a bob to resolve and then balance away the bob and the card advantage later.

Let me explain myself a bit more on two points just for clarification so that you can agree or disagree knowing what I meant.  I will also try to spell better.

1) You never want to force of will on principle.

Force of Will was put in the deck to deal with cards like Wheel of Fortune, Timetwister, etc. (But really it was put in for Necro.)  It is also flexible and can deal with any card.  What I mean by this is we don't want to build a deck that HAS to force of will a BOB allot.  Bob is a valid target for Force of Will.  But Swords is just so much better here.  Their deck doesn't run right without the BOB's.  If you preserve your Force of Will and simply swords the Bob you are very hard to beat here.

So what I mean by this is, don't fall into the trap of deckbuilding where you say, I will just counter that or I will just force that.  Force of Will is not really what you want to be playing against Bob.

I think a statement “You never want to Force of Will on principle” restrictive and doesn’t account for the possible game states. 

Facing an opponent casting Bob, if I have a STP or Balance in my hand and a FoW with another blue card, the removal is better than FoW on the BOB. Problem is that many times you don’t have the spot removal in hand which makes the statement above too restrictive.

For example: If you have FoW, a blue card, but no tutor, STP or Balance…do you FoW the Bob now or hold on for one of the 2 STPs, or Balance in the library?  Could you wait for a tutor to get the spot removal?   

If instead I did have a tutor, am I really getting more value with tutor-STP vs FoW-exile blue spell? I am giving up 2 cards to take care of 1 card now and future card advantage, but the context of the game state (and which tutor and blue card I have) are going to play into this. 

Game state, cards in hand, matchup, etc will all play into the decisions above, as well as the number of copies of each spell you have. 

As to the necessity of 2 STP, I think this comes down to the metagame you are facing.  STP does nothing against TPS and ANT.  Lightning Bolt is more flexible and covers most troublesome creatures.  Fire/Ice is even more flexible and is blue.  STP does stop any creature that can be targeted, but in a metagame that doesn’t see much Fish or GAT, the options I listed (not all spot available is listed) may be a better choice.

Balance is a good card, but I don’t feel it is as strong maindeck now that Gush is in the format.  I feel it is can be a good sideboard card for the matches it is needed for.

i am not sure you are correct about the blue restricted cards like ponder and brainstorm.  They do not actually increase the likeleyhood of having and answer against Bob or oath or similar, if you are taking out answers to put them in.  They reduce the odds that you have an answer.  They are rather bad against workshop although brainstorm is passable.  They do help you find wasteland however.

I disagree with you on brainstorm.  Being an instant, it does give you an increase in likelihood of finding an answer to Bob, oath, or any other card.

For instance you are facing a Bob being cast…you have a Brainstorm and another blue card, brainstorming can find that FoW to take care of the Bob.  Yes if I had STP in hand, I could take care of it as well, but if not with 2 STP in your library you would have to topdeck or tutor for the STP to keep the Bob ability from triggering during you r opponents next turn.  With Brainstorm you can dig 3 cards this turn or 4 cards next turn to find an answer, rather than 1 draw or burning a tutor.

Ponder is similar, but not nearly as powerful as Brainstorm as you can’t address thing the same turn to find instant answers, but like above will allow 4 cards (plus 5th if needed) to find one of the 2 STPs rather than burn a tutor (which at this point would have to be one that will get the card into your hand at a higher cost than Brainstorm or Ponder).

I don’t understand how they reduce the odds you have an answer.  If you take a Brainstorm or Ponder out, and put in an “answer” card….that card must answer all threats.  Having a way to see 3-5 cards in the turn you are looking for an answer card is much greater odds than topdecking the card the turn you need it.  Yes you may have drawn it sooner, but again that card would have to be the correct answer to the threat and haven’t been played previously.

In my opinion MArske your lists fail because they are bad combo-control lists.  You are trying to make the deck into a combo control list instead of a control list.

This thread is about working on a decklist.  You even mentioned in an above post that you would like to put together a current list.  I would ask that you not dismiss an idea outright especially without testing it, as it does nothing to help further the discussion of The Deck. 

Please post your decklist or base The Deck build with card choice explanations so we can evaluate your list as a whole.  It would help understand interactions with your choices. 

For example, I tested your idea with living wish into Tabernacle for the dredge matchup.  I found that that being able to waste a Bazaar and then land tabernacle did really slow them down.  I did find though that  the dredge player is able to switch gears and recur Ichorids 2-4 turns and set up a Ichorid/Bloodgasht kill on the next turn.  Now if you are aware of this and are able to STP the Ichorids or Extirpate them rather than Dread Return, than it may work, but I don’t think as effectively as other options as you need to get both Tabernacle and Exirpate within 5 turns while keeping Bazaar to a single activation.

[OmniStrife_101]

I played The Deck just yesterday landing a 5th place finish.  Here is the deck list I used.
I was expecting a Mud infested Meta, with Oath, Dark Times, Jace Control and Ichorid on the side.  Little would play combo in such in environment.
   
Lands (19) Mana Source (27)
3   Wasteland
2   Volcanic Island
2   Underground Sea
2   Tropical Island
1   Strip Mine
1   Scalding Tarn
1   Polluted Delta
1   Misty Rainforest
1   Island
1   Flooded Strand
3   City of Brass
1   Library of Alexandria
1   Black Lotus
1   Mox Sapphire
1   Mox Jet
1   Mox Ruby
1   Mox Emerald
1   Mox Pearl
1   Sol Ring
1   Mana Crypt
   
4   Force of Will
3   Mana Drain
2   Spell Pierce
   
1   Fire/Ice
1   Pernicious Deed
2   Ancient Grudge
   
1   Gorilla Shaman
1   Trygon Predator
1   Sower of Temptation
1   Sphinx of the Steelwind
1   Tinker
1   Jace the Mindsculptor
1   Crucible of Worlds
   
1   Brainstorm
1   Gifts Ungiven
1   Fact or Fiction
1   Ancestral Recall
1   Time Walk
1   Yawgmoth's Will
1   Regrowth
1   Mystical Tutor
1   Vampiric Tutor
1   Demonic Tutor
1   Skeletal Scrying
1   Time Vault
1   Voltaic Key

Sideboard   
2   Firespout
1   Red Elemental Blast
1   Pyroblast
2   Sower of Temptation
3   Nature's Claim
4   Leyline of the Void
2   Yixlid Jailer

** I considered building The Deck with
2 Leyline of Void
1 Helm of Obedience
But after gold fishing, I found it iffy, at least for me.  I took out the three cards in favor of:
1 Time Vault
1 Voltaic Key
1 Skeletal Scrying

Assembling Time Vault and Voltaic Key won me numerous games even in previous tournaments.  I chose them because they are easier to assemble than the Obeyline combo.  I know I'll get flamed for this, but it actually worked for me. 

I took the Skeletal Scrying suggestion and for most part it went well.  Using the drain mana to set up S.S to refill my hand after a counter war really is helpful.  Though this slot is open for changes.  This can probably be Mind Twist, but I haven't tested it.

I did not board in anything against combo because our meta is really infested with all kinds of MUD variants.  So I just concentrated on beating Mud, Oath, Ichorid and Jace Control.

My tournament report can be found here if you are interested, as well as those of other players.

http://thesphere.freeforums.org/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=2192&start=10

[Royal Ass.]

Omnistrife - How did you feel about only running one Jace?  What about changing out the Skeletal Scrying for a second Jace? 

I'm not sure how I feel about the 3 Cities of Brass.  What about running a couple more duals and another fetch land.  That would compliment Jace better since it allows you to shuffle after brainstorming.

Also, how good was Pernicious Deed?

[OmniStrife_101]

Omnistrife - How did you feel about only running one Jace?  What about changing out the Skeletal Scrying for a second Jace?  

I'm not sure how I feel about the 3 Cities of Brass.  What about running a couple more duals and another fetch land.  That would compliment Jace better since it allows you to shuffle after brainstorming.

Also, how good was Pernicious Deed?

1 Jace ver2 - since I only have one, and it is so damn expensive and hard to find these days.  Though you make a valid suggestion.  I will try to proxy it up.

I feel confortable with 3 City of Brass.  I need not add fetch lands, which somehow dilutes the mana count of the deck in critical stages of the game.  Though this actually can work against The Deck, I never found so far any issues with it.

There was one game where in I top decked Pernicious Deed, and ended up wiping the entire board of a Fish player netting him just 2 lands.  Early game I believe you don't want to get Pernicious Deed, but mid game (not late game) , this can make a difference.  Ofcourse, this is always a slot worth swapping with other cards.

[DuKeLiO]

This weekend I go back again with Keeper for my league. I went top4 losing for a little play error against the very broken start of my opponent. I tuned the deck against a field full of MUD and Blue control decks without Oath and very little Fish.

1 Sundering Titan   
1 Sphinx of the Steel Wind   
1 Gorilla Shaman   
4 Force of Will   
4 Mana Drain   
2 Mindbreak Trap   
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor   
1 Brainstorm   
1 Ponder   
1 Mystical Tutor   
1 Ancestral Recall   
1 Time Walk   
1 Merchant Scroll   
1 Tinker   
1 Fact or Fiction   
1 Gifts ungiven   
1 Balance   
1 Vampiric tutor   
1 Demonic tutor   
1 Yawgmoth´s Will   
2 Ancient Grudge   
1 Lightning Bolt   
1 Regrowth   
1 Black Lotus   
1 Mana Crypt   
1 Sol Ring   
1 Mox Jet   
1 Mox Sapphire   
1 Mox Ruby   
1 Mox Emerald   
1 Mox Pearl   
1 Library of Alexandria   
1 Strip Mine   
4 Wasteland   
4 City of Brass   
1 Tundra   
1 Tropical Island   
2 Volcanic Island   
2 Underground Sea   
1 Misty Rainforest   
1 Scalding Tarn   
1 Flooded Strand   
1 Polluted Delta   
   
SB:   
1 Trinisphere   
1 Nihil Spellbomb   
1 Sower of Temptation   
1 Mindbreak Trap   
1 Sword to Plowshares   
2 Extirpate   
1 Yixlid Jailer   
2 Lightning Bolt   
1 Ancient Grudge   
1 Red Elemental Blast   
1 Pyroblast   
2 Nature´s Claim

I prefered Lightning Bolt over swords to plowshares beacuse it hits Jace TMS, and now I have more anwers against TinkerRobot or Tarmogoyf in the form of Jace TMS. Also I remove Spell Pierce beacuse it is not so good against Gush.dec and against Vault-Key or MUD the more dangerous early threats are creatures. I am a fan of Mindbreak Trap beacuse it prevents you to loosing of a very broken star with a lot of artifact sources and it is very good against gush.dec.

[Daenyth]

I've been testing with this list lately on cockatrice and been having great results. I'm still working on my sideboard plans and the list feels very tight. I want about 4-5 more cards but have no idea what I'd cut. It's extremely fun to play and I almost never feel that any situation is unanswerable for me.


1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Black Lotus
1 Sol Ring
1 Mana Crypt

1 Island
1 Tropical Island
2 Volcanic Island
2 Underground Sea
1 Tundra
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Scalding Tarn
3 City of Brass
1 Strip Mine
3 Wasteland

2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

1 Gorilla Shaman
1 Sower of Temptation
1 Myr Battlesphere

3 Mana Drain
4 Force of Will
1 Misdirection

1 Ancestral Recall
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Tinker
1 Brainstorm
1 Ponder
1 Gifts Ungiven
1 Merchant Scroll
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor

1 Lightning Bolt
1 Nature's Claim
1 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Swords to Plowshares
1 Ancient Grudge

1 Timetwister
1 Fact or Fiction
1 Mind Twist
1 Regrowth
1 Time Walk
1 Crucible of Worlds

SB: 4 Leyline of the Void
SB: 1 Helm of Obedience
SB: 2 Yixlid Jailer
SB: 1 Balance
SB: 1 Red Elemental Blast
SB: 1 Pyroblast
SB: 1 Sphinx of the Steel Wind
SB: 1 Trinisphere
SB: 1 Island
SB: 1 Pithing Needle
SB: 1 Spell Pierce

[Mith]

The inherent issue that remains with The Deck is the lack of draw. While the disruption and control has always been excellent, combating a Vault/Key or Gush/Tendrils deck that packs just as many counters as you do is difficult...especially when you're consistently at a disadvantage due to your lack of a draw engine.

I've found the U/B/G version of Jace/Vault to be much a more stable "control deck"...relying on four Confidant, two Jace, and Top to keep my hand full. While I miss the disruption , silver bullets, and LD that I had with The Deck, I'd much prefer to just "win" than attempt to prevent my opponent from doing so.

[waikiki]

I have been having succes with this version of the Deck running the extra draws and imo really abusing the mana drain mana.

// Lands
    4  City of Brass
    1  Flooded Strand
    1  Library of Alexandria
    1  Misty Rainforest
    1  Polluted Delta
    1  Scalding Tarn
    1  Strip Mine
    4  Wasteland
    2  Underground Sea
    2  Volcanic Island
    1  Tropical Island

// Creatures
    1 [ARB] Sphinx of the Steel Wind
    1  Gorilla Shaman (2)

// Spells
    4  Force of Will
    1  Time Walk
    1  Mox Emerald
    1  Mox Jet
    1  Mox Pearl
    1  Mox Ruby
    1  Mox Sapphire
    1  Black Lotus
    1  Time Vault
    1  Voltaic Key
    1  Demonic Tutor
    1  Vampiric Tutor
    1  Mystical Tutor
    1  Gifts Ungiven
    1  Tinker
    1  Merchant Scroll
    1  Fire/Ice
    1  Regrowth
    1  Ancestral Recall
    2  Jace, the Mind Sculptor
    4  Mana Drain
    1  Brainstorm
    1  Crucible of Worlds
    1  Sol Ring
    1 [BIN] Mana Crypt
    1  Ancient Grudge
    1  Fact or Fiction
    1  Mind Twist
    1  Yawgmoth's Will
    1  Skeletal Scrying
    1  Pernicious Deed
    1  Sensei's Divining Top

[limitedwhole]

Here is the maindeck I played at The Kentucky State Championships.  It felt very good and performed very well.  The sideboard was pretty weak and needed more spot removal and needs some more work, so I will not list it here, but this list is really good.  It has been performing well online as well.  There is only 1 "dead" card in this list, Zuran Orb, compared to the countless dead cards which have been advocated by others.  I have also added Pact of the Titan back to my sideboard as a win condition off cunning wish, and as an extra  sideboard cards versus Magus of the Moon decks.  Its also funny to put out a 4/4 wall at instant speed when your opponent attacks with his dark confidant.  Had no difficulty winning despite peoples claims that the deck is too slow.  Kill speed is an entirely different thing than interactive speed.  Only two games I played all day ended before turn 10.  I took games to turn 20-30 pretty easily.  I got straight up crushed by a zoo deck one game and a gush tendrils player opened with Ancestral, timewalk, Demonic, Lotus, Yawgmoth's.  I thought I had a pretty good hand with 2 spell pierces, mana drain, and wasteland, but not much I could do there with the entire yawg's package in hand on the draw.  I love the 4 spell Pierce, 4 Drain, 3 Force of Will package as Force of Will is so bad right now ( Isideboard out another Force in control mirrors), but it creates sideboard difficulties (not enough spot removal in my board) and a slightly weaker game one against aggro decks.  I was on the draw 4 out the five matches I played and the deck still did not let me down.  One of my favorite moments of the tournament was when a guy mulliganed to 6 and had a big smile on the play and opened with fetch-usea-thoughtseize and saw Usea, Delta, Wasteland, 2 Spell Pierce, Swords, Mana Drain.  i casually drew, wastelanded the Usea and passed the turn.  Suddenly his hand didn't look so good anymore.  His smile soon turned upside down as he languished for twenty some turns before Morphling ended his long suffering mercifully.

Ancestral Recall
Time Walk
Mystical Tutor
Merchant Scroll
Cunning Wish
4 Spell Pierce
4 Mana Drain
3 Force of Will
Balance
Disenchant
2 Swords to Plowshares
Gorilla Shaman
Mindtwist
Yawgmoth's Will
2 Skeletal Scrying
Demonic tutor
Vampiric tutor
Regrowth
Reclaim
Living Wish
Crucible of Worlds
Zuran Orb
SoLoMox
Library of Alexandria
3 City of Brass
3 Fetch
2 Tundra
2 Volcanic Island
3 Underground Sea
Tropical Island
Island
4 Wasteland
Strip Mine

[limitedwhole]

An alternate configuration to the above list is
+1 Timetwister
+1 Fact or Fiction
+1 Force of Will
+1 tormod's Crypt
-1 Spell Pierce
-1 Skeletal Scrying
+1 Skeletal Scrying SB
-1 Reclaim
-1 Zuran Orb
+1 Zuran Orb SB

That version is a bit better if you are expecting more combo, gush(but no tez), and allot of dredge.  But losing Reclaim sucks and scrying is a thousand times better than fact or fiction.  

[Klep]

What matchups, specifically, is Zuran Orb winning for you for which other cards aren't better suited and why?  You have a lot of work to do to overcome the fact that straight-up lifegain is terrible.

[TheBrassMan]

limitedwhole - do you mind sharing your sideboard?  between Pact of the Titan and two kinds of Wishes I can't wrap my head around what it might look like.  What does it look like and what decks are you preparing for?

[limitedwhole]

If I was to just jot down a sideboard right now to play on apprentice it would be

Swords to Plowshares
Diabolic Edict
Lava Dart
2 Red Elemental Blasts
Pyroblast
Trinisphere
Pact of the Titan
2 Gorilla Shaman
Morphling
Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
2 Disenchant
Ancient Grudge

I also need to add another volcanic island main.  I might just take out the basic island as I never fetch for it.  Its only really in there for magus of the moon and this deck doesn't have allot of blue spells to play off it like other versions I have played.  There is also no BEB in the sideboard anymore to get rid of the magus.  i have switched over to lava dart.

[Mith]

"Force of Will is so bad right now"? I'm not even sure where to start responding to that comment.

Zuran Orb? Morphling? Disenchant? It's like going back in time...and hardly seems the optimal approach in any metagame...

[limitedwhole]

Zuran Orb is good against aggro type decks, this deck doesn't have tinker bot or abyss.  Orb can make all the difference.  Orb is good against Tendrils kill.  It is almost impossible to kill me with a bear.  Orb is good against Magus of the Moon.  Magus is a slow clock.  I can see allot more topdecks looking for moxen or red cards.  Orb makes it almost impossible to slow dredge me.  Orb/Balance is good against Tez.  I often almost kill myself with damage.  I can race your trygdon predator with your mana crypt.  Orb fills up my graveyard if I need cards to scrye away (say crypt was played).  Orb/Balance kills basic islands.  Orb/Balance kills people who fetch all their land out of their deck.  My deck has more land than any other deck.  If am loosing a game, I can set up Orb/ Balance and turn a loosing game into a statistical winner.

[limitedwhole]

"Force of Will is so bad right now"? I'm not even sure where to start responding to that comment.

Zuran Orb? Morphling? Disenchant? It's like going back in time...and hardly seems the optimal approach in any metagame...

Yes force of Will is terrible right now.  Disenchant is better than Nature's claim as i already play 3 nature's claims called "swords to plowshares".  It also can be cast off white mana, that way my deck deck isn't confused when it goes to fetch up a land against shop.  I also don't lose to chalice at 1.  Morphling is the sick nuts.  See the beauty in Morphling is that no one can get rid of it, its blue so you can pitch it, and I don't have to play piles of crappy cards to win with.  It also eats planeswalker and bears.

Although admittedly the vast majority of my wins come off concessions or gorilla shaman beats.

Another nice feature of this deck is that it has a very low mana curve.  Not grow low, but for  The Deck very low.  It has 11 spells that cost 1, 11 spells that cost 2, 3 spells that cost 3, and 6 spells that cost 4 up to X.  Of those six 3 are force of will and the other three are variable costed meaning they can be effectively cast at 3.

[Klep]

Zuran Orb is good against aggro type decks, this deck doesn't have tinker bot or abyss. 

Why is it better than those other options?

Orb is good against Tendrils kill.

No it isn't.  The goal of a Tendrils deck isn't to play Tendrils.  It's to generate a lot of storm.  Orb may make their path a bit more difficult, but it doesn't stop them.  Again, why is Orb better than other options?

It is almost impossible to kill me with a bear.

This is not a problem in Vintage.  If you are having problems with losing to 2/2's, you are doing something horribly wrong.

Orb/Balance is good against Tez.

No it isn't.

I often almost kill myself with damage.

What makes Orb a better option for dealing with your low life than other options like, say, Exalted Angel which can also just freaking kill your opponent?

I can race your trygdon predator with your mana crypt.

This is a terrible plan.

Orb fills up my graveyard if I need cards to scrye away (say crypt was played).

If someone is Crypting you, they are terrible at sideboarding.  If your graveyard is empty because you haven't played spells, then play spells.

Orb/Balance kills basic islands.  Orb/Balance kills people who fetch all their land out of their deck.

Crucible/Strip/Waste also does this, and each of those cards is better individually than Orb is.

If your goal is to play a 2-card combo that does something sweet, why not play Vault-Key and just win the game.

[limitedwhole]

"If your goal is to play a 2-card combo that does something sweet, why not play Vault-Key and just win the game."

Orb+Balance+ REB: 1R, 1W, 1C Total Mana Cost: 3 Mana
1 Good Card, 1 "Dead" card

Opponent cannot Play Nature's Claim in response.

My opponent has no land left in his deck.  Hence I cannot lose the game.  Hence I win the game.

Voltaic Key+ Time Vault +REB: 1R, 3-4C  Total Mana Cost: 4-5 Mana
2 Absolutely Dead Cards.

Opponent can play natures claim in response.

[Klep]

Except that you only have hope that Balance+Orb will be good enough, whereas you KNOW that Vault-Key is.  You're too focused on doing something cool, and not focused enough on winning the game.

[limitedwhole]

My opponent has no land left in his deck.  Trust me opponent has no land left in deck=win.

[Klep]

So your plan is to live long enough to make sure your opponent has no land left in his deck, then Orb/Balance, then hope your opponent's artifact mana is insufficient for him to do anything while you look for a way to actually win the game?

That is one of the worst plans I've ever heard.

[limitedwhole]

So your plan is to live long enough to make sure your opponent has no land left in his deck, then Orb/Balance, then hope your opponent's artifact mana is insufficient for him to do anything while you look for a way to actually win the game?

That is one of the worst plans I've ever heard.

Yes obviously that is my plan!  thats all my deck does!  All the other cards in there do nothing!  Sophist.

Do you have apprentice? (edit: I mean magic workstation) Up for best of three matches?  Tez versus The Deck?

[Klep]

So your plan is to live long enough to make sure your opponent has no land left in his deck, then Orb/Balance, then hope your opponent's artifact mana is insufficient for him to do anything while you look for a way to actually win the game?

That is one of the worst plans I've ever heard.

Yes obviously that is my plan!  thats all my deck does!  All the other cards in there do nothing!  Sophist.

Do you have apprentice?  Up for best of three matches?  Tez versus The Deck?

But you say that's why you're running Orb!  If that's not your plan, then is Orb the best card you could run to further your actual plan?  I can't see how, because it doesn't actually DO anything.

[Mith]

This discussion is starting to make my head hurt...and as I have nothing positive to say, I'll close with a sincere hope that we're not being trolled...

[limitedwhole]

Lol.  I'm the one being trolled.  Seriously, if your up for a three match set, send me a message.  I'll prove it to you.

[trikky]

Dont dismiss what he says out of hand. balance+zorb is/can be strong. There are many deck/keeper/control decks out there that differ by only a few cards.

This is what makes the game fun. I would like to see some matches.

[AmbivalentDuck]

Lol.  I'm the one being trolled.  Seriously, if your up for a three match set, send me a message.  I'll prove it to you.

I intend to ALWAYS take up challenges like this when I see them.

Rules are as follows:
5 games with no sideboard.
10 games sideboarded.

All games played PUBLICLY on Cockatrice and announced in the IRC channel.

I get the list Marske posted.  You get a list that's constrained by what you've posted.