TheManaDrain.com
June 07, 2023, 06:25:18 am *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News:
 
   Home   Help Search Calendar Login Register  
Pages: [1] 2 3 ... 9
  Print  
Author Topic: The Mountains Win Again is Back!  (Read 74367 times)
Troy_Costisick
Full Members
Basic User
***
Posts: 1804


View Profile WWW Email
« on: October 15, 2010, 01:05:41 pm »

Heya,  

Back in the Golden Age (2007-2008) I used to play a fun little rogue deck called "The Mountains Win Again."  You can find an exhaustive thread about that deck here:  http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=35901.0

Anyway, linked on the Morphling (http://www.morphling.de/top8decks.php?id=1337) is a deck that took 6th that resembles the ethos of TMWA from the 2007-2008 era.  Here's the list:

Maindeck (60 cards):

1 Black Lotus
4 Chalice of the Void
1 Mox Ruby
4 Null Rod
4 Blood Moon
4 Gathan Raiders
2 Gorilla Shaman
3 Grim Lavamancer
3 Lightning Bolt
4 Magus of the Moon
3 Mogg Fanatic
2 Pyroblast
3 Red Elemental Blast
4 Simian Spirit Guide

Lands (18):
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
10 Mountain

Sideboard (15 cards):
 
3 Greater Gargadon
2 Pithing Needle
3 Pyrokinesis
2 Relic of Progenitus
3 Shattering Spree
2 Tormod's Crypt

Interesting things I note in this deck:

1. It plays a full compliment of the Unpowered 8: 4 Chalice of the Void + 4 Null Rod
2. It plays a full compliment of Moon Effects: 4 Magus of the Moon + 4 Blood Moon
3. It's packing 5 maindeck Red Blasts
4. It's uses "power up" lands like City of Traitors and Ancient Tomb which help cast Moons and Rods and then become Mountains
5. It's well positioned against Fish decks w/ Fanatic, Lavamancer, Bolts, and Pyrokinesis
6. It packs a wide aray of Dredge hate with 8 Moons, 2 Relics, 2 Crypts, 2 Needles, and 3 Fanataics

I think it's somewhat vulnerable to Oath decks since it's only dedicated anti-Oath cards are 3 Gargadons in the SB.  I guess Oath wasn't a concern and seems to waning in the metagame as a whole.  

So, all you old school TMWA fans, how does this look to you?  RDW fans in Extended and Standard (if you're reading this) would you play this deck?  Looks like fun to me!

Peace,

-Troy
Logged

CorwinB
Basic User
**
Posts: 236


View Profile
« Reply #1 on: October 16, 2010, 05:07:07 pm »

Quote
RDW fans in Extended and Standard (if you're reading this) would you play this deck?  Looks like fun to me!

This is very far from Standard RDW decks, though. RDW in the previous Standard (M10-11/ALA/ZEN) was all about breakneck speed with the battery of Unearth "Ball Lightning" critters, RDW in the new Standard is more about leveraging the insanity that is Koth of the Hammer. In this Vintage list, the top priority seems to be mana disruption, not damage speed.

As you said, the list seems a bit soft to Oath, and to Tinker as well (I doubt the 5 REBs are enough to win a counter war over Tinker).
Logged
overseer1234
Basic User
**
Posts: 89


View Profile
« Reply #2 on: October 17, 2010, 04:25:55 pm »

Funny, since we and our team have been testing a similar deck for about 2 weeks (since we saw it do pretty damn good on a tournament)
Deck: Red Hate

3x Basilisk Collar
1x Umezawa's Jitte
4x Cunning Sparkmage
2x Gorilla Shaman
3x Greater Gargadon
4x Magus of the Moon
4x Manic Vandal
4x Simian Spirit Guide
4x Figure of Destiny
3x Blood Moon
3x Dead // Gone
4x Lightning Bolt
4x Ancient Tomb
4x City of Traitors
11x Mountain
2x Shattering Spree

//Sideboard
3x Null Rod
3x Relic of Progenitus
3x Tormodís Crypt
1x Goblin Bombardment
2x Pyroblast
3x Red Elemental Blast

Display Deck Statistics

the shop , tezz and ichorid matchup are pretty damn good, the fish matchup is also heavily in our favor, only oath (but that deck isn't putting up numbers in our meta) and storm combo are pretty rough, but both of them rarely show up atm...

If I would pick up your list I would definitely kick the gathan raiders (they do 'nothing, and with chalice for 0 you need to hardcast them...) and ad manic vandal, that guy's so damn good for me atm...
Logged
xouman
Basic User
**
Posts: 1082


View Profile Email
« Reply #3 on: October 18, 2010, 06:34:03 am »

I'll address Oath problem with white leyline or goblin bombardment. Gargadon is not good enough imho, because it only buys you time, but you cannot win without creatures, and finally gargadon would enter the battlefield (so opponent can activate oath) or opp would play jace / vault+key.

Btw, i'm testing a very similar kind of deck with dark confidants, which grants access to discard effects and kill creatures. My only question is: it's better to play null rod or aether vial (quite powerful against mud)?
Logged
Guli
Basic User
**
Posts: 1763


View Profile
« Reply #4 on: October 18, 2010, 11:07:07 am »

I'll address Oath problem with white leyline or goblin bombardment. Gargadon is not good enough imho, because it only buys you time, but you cannot win without creatures, and finally gargadon would enter the battlefield (so opponent can activate oath) or opp would play jace / vault+key.

Btw, i'm testing a very similar kind of deck with dark confidants, which grants access to discard effects and kill creatures. My only question is: it's better to play null rod or aether vial (quite powerful against mud)?
Vial wins games versus Workshop only if you can vial in STRONG answers like Kataki and pumped Tarmogoyfs. What also is important is the ability to strip their lands without denying yourself mana. Vial can enable this strategy.

I can see Noble Hierarch do well too, without vial and without null rod. Same concept but you don't get as much acceleration and no protection/instant speed at all like vial gives you. Thing is though, noble gives you 3 mana faster and exalted matters. I think Vial is stronger in the long run. Playing both vial AND noble seems interesting but I think their are better 1 drops to be vialed in.
Logged

bebx
Basic User
**
Posts: 12


View Profile Email
« Reply #5 on: October 19, 2010, 09:30:02 am »

Funny, since we and our team have been testing a similar deck for about 2 weeks (since we saw it do pretty damn good on a tournament)
Deck: Red Hate

3x Basilisk Collar
1x Umezawa's Jitte
4x Cunning Sparkmage
2x Gorilla Shaman
3x Greater Gargadon
4x Magus of the Moon
4x Manic Vandal
4x Simian Spirit Guide
4x Figure of Destiny
3x Blood Moon
3x Dead // Gone
4x Lightning Bolt
4x Ancient Tomb
4x City of Traitors
11x Mountain
2x Shattering Spree

//Sideboard
3x Null Rod
3x Relic of Progenitus
3x Tormodís Crypt
1x Goblin Bombardment
2x Pyroblast
3x Red Elemental Blast

Display Deck Statistics

the shop , tezz and ichorid matchup are pretty damn good, the fish matchup is also heavily in our favor, only oath (but that deck isn't putting up numbers in our meta) and storm combo are pretty rough, but both of them rarely show up atm...

If I would pick up your list I would definitely kick the gathan raiders (they do 'nothing, and with chalice for 0 you need to hardcast them...) and ad manic vandal, that guy's so damn good for me atm...

This looks similar to my deck- http://www.morphling.de/top8decks.php?id=1304&highlight=location
Here is my updated list:

11 Mountain
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Simian Spirit Guide
3 Gorilla Shaman
4 Manic Vandal
4 Magus of the Moon
3 Cunning Sparkmage
4 Figure of Destiny
4 Ligthning Bolt
3 Dead/Gone
4 Sculpting Steel
2 Shattering Spree
3 Liquimetal Coating
3 Blood Moon

SB:
4 Tormod's Crypt
2 Red Elemental Blast
2 Pyroblast
3 Null Rod
1 Shattering Spree
3 Greater Gargadon
Logged

Member of Team Budget

I have been piloting Budget Mono Red deck in Vintage since 2/22/2009
(http://morphling.de/top8decks.php?id=1010&highlight=8#place8)
Troy_Costisick
Full Members
Basic User
***
Posts: 1804


View Profile WWW Email
« Reply #6 on: October 19, 2010, 09:43:53 am »

Btw, i'm testing a very similar kind of deck with dark confidants, which grants access to discard effects and kill creatures. My only question is: it's better to play null rod or aether vial (quite powerful against mud)?

Black was one of the colors people often tried to add to TMWA back in the day.  I was always unsold on its effectiveness.  Mono-red has its advantages, especially the Moon effects and cheap mana base (for budget players).  I think I would add some Fetchlands to both of the lists that have been posted here.  Thinning out your land draws is really important for a deck that lacks a draw engine.
Logged

overseer1234
Basic User
**
Posts: 89


View Profile
« Reply #7 on: October 19, 2010, 03:59:14 pm »

Funny, since we and our team have been testing a similar deck for about 2 weeks (since we saw it do pretty damn good on a tournament)
Deck: Red Hate

3x Basilisk Collar
1x Umezawa's Jitte
4x Cunning Sparkmage
2x Gorilla Shaman
3x Greater Gargadon
4x Magus of the Moon
4x Manic Vandal
4x Simian Spirit Guide
4x Figure of Destiny
3x Blood Moon
3x Dead // Gone
4x Lightning Bolt
4x Ancient Tomb
4x City of Traitors
11x Mountain
2x Shattering Spree

//Sideboard
3x Null Rod
3x Relic of Progenitus
3x Tormodís Crypt
1x Goblin Bombardment
2x Pyroblast
3x Red Elemental Blast

Display Deck Statistics

the shop , tezz and ichorid matchup are pretty damn good, the fish matchup is also heavily in our favor, only oath (but that deck isn't putting up numbers in our meta) and storm combo are pretty rough, but both of them rarely show up atm...

If I would pick up your list I would definitely kick the gathan raiders (they do 'nothing, and with chalice for 0 you need to hardcast them...) and ad manic vandal, that guy's so damn good for me atm...

This looks similar to my deck- http://www.morphling.de/top8decks.php?id=1304&highlight=location
Here is my updated list:

11 Mountain
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Simian Spirit Guide
3 Gorilla Shaman
4 Manic Vandal
4 Magus of the Moon
3 Cunning Sparkmage
4 Figure of Destiny
4 Ligthning Bolt
3 Dead/Gone
4 Sculpting Steel
2 Shattering Spree
3 Liquimetal Coating
3 Blood Moon

SB:
4 Tormod's Crypt
2 Red Elemental Blast
2 Pyroblast
3 Null Rod
1 Shattering Spree
3 Greater Gargadon

Indeed, the player who apparently barely didn't make Top 8 (he was 3-2 and got 9th) said it was on there, but we simply asked for his decklist so...


Anyway, I really like how it preforms, but we've kicked the gargadons for tunnel ignus who's doing pretty good in testing so far.
Logged
TopSecret
Full Members
Basic User
***
Posts: 864


View Profile
« Reply #8 on: October 19, 2010, 04:02:42 pm »

4 Sculpting Steel

...

3 Liquimetal Coating

BRILLIANT
Logged

Ball and Chain
RecklessEmbermage
Basic User
**
Posts: 279


View Profile
« Reply #9 on: October 20, 2010, 08:05:57 am »

4 Sculpting Steel

...

3 Liquimetal Coating

BRILLIANT

Wow. Of course!

Sculpting steel is selling out where I buy my cards at 3-4 dollars apiece. It seems likely they will rise some now.
Logged
Klep
OMG I'M KLEP!
Administrator
Basic User
*****
Posts: 1872



View Profile
« Reply #10 on: October 20, 2010, 09:08:00 am »

All I have to say to this...

4 Sculpting Steel

...

3 Liquimetal Coating

... is to link to this.
Logged

So I suppose I should take The Fringe back out of my sig now...
RecklessEmbermage
Basic User
**
Posts: 279


View Profile
« Reply #11 on: October 20, 2010, 10:08:41 am »

All I have to say to this...

4 Sculpting Steel

...

3 Liquimetal Coating

... is to link to this.

How come? If the deck already plays a set of coatings to turn on artifact destruction (which may itself be danger of cool things. We don't know how good liquid termites is yet) sculpting steel should be both reliable and strong. It goes from being a semi-popular sideboard card to a strong maindeck card. If anything, I think the numbers should be flipped around (4 coating, 3 steel).
Logged
Klep
OMG I'M KLEP!
Administrator
Basic User
*****
Posts: 1872



View Profile
« Reply #12 on: October 20, 2010, 10:27:52 am »

How come? If the deck already plays a set of coatings to turn on artifact destruction (which may itself be danger of cool things. We don't know how good liquid termites is yet) sculpting steel should be both reliable and strong.
In a deck which has the goal of doing 20 damage to the opponent's face as quickly as possible and also has no card draw at all, it's 7 cards that do 0 damage and have no effect on the game unless combined with something else.  If I were to run this kind of deck, I'd rather run Chain and Burst Lightning.  At least they do damage.
Logged

So I suppose I should take The Fringe back out of my sig now...
Troy_Costisick
Full Members
Basic User
***
Posts: 1804


View Profile WWW Email
« Reply #13 on: October 20, 2010, 11:18:14 am »

How come? If the deck already plays a set of coatings to turn on artifact destruction (which may itself be danger of cool things. We don't know how good liquid termites is yet) sculpting steel should be both reliable and strong.
In a deck which has the goal of doing 20 damage to the opponent's face as quickly as possible...

You must be referring to a different deck.  TMWA does not try to deal 20 damage as quickly as possible.  Perhaps you're talking about Sligh?  TMWA has an entirely different focuss.
Logged

Klep
OMG I'M KLEP!
Administrator
Basic User
*****
Posts: 1872



View Profile
« Reply #14 on: October 20, 2010, 11:27:43 am »

You must be referring to a different deck.  TMWA does not try to deal 20 damage as quickly as possible.  Perhaps you're talking about Sligh?  TMWA has an entirely different focuss.
I was referring to the decklist I partially quoted, not TMWA.
Logged

So I suppose I should take The Fringe back out of my sig now...
bebx
Basic User
**
Posts: 12


View Profile Email
« Reply #15 on: October 20, 2010, 01:17:25 pm »

Liquimetal Coating is a dead card on its own. I think 3 is the right number so that you still have a chance to draw him early since the deck has no card drawer. I've used Basilisk Collar before since I can still block Inkwell Leviathan but with the change of Tinker target to Sphinx of the Steel Wind in our meta, 4 Sculpting Steel would really help.
Logged

Member of Team Budget

I have been piloting Budget Mono Red deck in Vintage since 2/22/2009
(http://morphling.de/top8decks.php?id=1010&highlight=8#place8)
serracollector
Basic User
**
Posts: 1359

serracollector@hotmail.com
View Profile Email
« Reply #16 on: October 20, 2010, 01:44:47 pm »

I believe the Collar is more for the hasty pinging guy to take down everything except Sphinx and Inkwell.  I like the inclusion of Figure of Destiny.  Has anyone tried the red level up guy who turns into a fatty dragon instead?  Just wondering, and why or why not you would.
Logged

B/R discussions are not allowed outside of Vintage Issues, and that includes signatures.
TopSecret
Full Members
Basic User
***
Posts: 864


View Profile
« Reply #17 on: October 20, 2010, 03:00:17 pm »

I like the inclusion of Figure of Destiny.  Has anyone tried the red level up guy who turns into a fatty dragon instead?  Just wondering, and why or why not you would.

Without testing, I would assume that Figure of Destiny fills the role of a one drop in the mana curve of the deck, whereas the other guy is a two drop, which is a spot on the mana curve already filled out on the deck. So straight up swapping one for the other is probably not a good idea in this scenario. But I could be wrong.
Logged

Ball and Chain
xouman
Basic User
**
Posts: 1082


View Profile Email
« Reply #18 on: October 25, 2010, 05:06:56 am »

This saturday I came to local monthly league (LCV, 51 players) with a TMLA(*) deck. This is the cardlist:

4 magus of the moon
4 dark confidant
4 simian spirit guide
3 gorilla shaman
3 grim lavamancer
2 viashino heretic
2 fleshbag marauder
1 throat slitter

4 dark ritual
4 thoughtseize
3 bitterblossom
1 duress
1 demonic tutor
2 blood moon

3 skullclamp
1 mox jet
1 mox ruby
1 sol ring

4 ancient tomb
4 badlands
2 bloodstained mire
3 polluted delta
3 swamp

sideboard
2 lightning bolt
2 fleshbag marauder
2 pyrokinesis
1 shattering spree
3 relic of progenitus
2 reb
2 pyroblast
1 pithing needle



1st round - aggro mud

1-I mulligan to 5. He starts and plays some thorn of amethysts and tangle wire, but only ancient tomb and moxes for mana. One gorilla shaman cleans moxes, and then a lavamancer kills a metalworker and they beat him to death, as he can't find lands.

2-I play a turn 1 thoughtseize taking a hellkite, and turn 2 magus of the moon. Then he plays 2 metalworkers and while I play a grim lavamancer, he plays another hellkite, that kills me quickly.

3-I start with turn 1 thoughtseize that takes a ratchet bomb. He topdecks a chalice at 1 (I had lavamancer and lightning ) and then plays a turn 2 hellkite (also topdecked) just before I can play a viashino heretic. End of the match.

1-2, 0 points



2nd round, stax

1-he opens with turn 1 sphere, turn 2 tangle wire, turn 3 crucible + strip mine. I manage to play a grim lavamancer and a confidant that beat him (with simian), he plays a duplicant but finally he plays a stax, ending the game at 1 point of life.

2-I open with skullclamp, with 2xbitterblossom in hand. He opens with trinisphere, and turn 2 tangle wire again. He plays smokestax the turn before I can play bitterblossom or viashino heretic, and I get locked.

0-2, 0 points


3rd round, dredge

1-He mulligans to 6 and starts, I have a bad hand but with magus of the moon, that I play on turn 2 and denies him the bazaar. He manages to play bloodghast and a couple of zombies, but he sees a lavamancer and scoops.

2-He starts with bazaar, I play a relic and then he plays chain of vapor and cabal therapy, taking 2 relics. I lost on turn 3.

3-I find another turn 1 relic, but he has quick claim, and then he can win easily.

1-2, 0 points


4th round, gushbond

1-he wins die roll, plays mox, land, fastbond, ancestral, land, gush, merchant, gush... first turn win.

2-I play turn 1 ritual, 2xthoughtseize, skullclamp.  i play a turn 2 confidant, repeal, turn 3 confidant, repeal, turn 4 confidant, fire ice, turn 5 magus of the moon, and he can't do anything from that point with only 1 island and x mountains.

3-it's a slow game, i play 1 magus of the moon, then blood moon, i play confidant he plays fire/ice to magus, I play another magus, he plays a jace, I attack with confidant to jace and then we enter turns. he fire/ices a magus, and i attack and sacrifice confidant to a skullclamp to find beaters (also i'm at 6 due to confidant), but I'm not quick enough and he survives.

1-1, 1 point

5th round, gushbond

1-I have turn one magus of the moon online, but he starts with thoughtseize and takes it. Next turns he plays ancestral and gush, i play skullclamp and simian spirit guide attacking. he plays a dryad and i play fleshag marauder. When he is at 6 and I have a couple of beaters, he topdecks tinker for sphinx. I draw throat slitter and suddely realised that sphinx is black... so i lose the game.

2-i manage to play gorilla shaman and blood moon and with REBs I control the game.

3-I have to mulligan, and then i have turn 1 magus of the moon, but he again starts with thoughtseize and takes it.he plays trygon and dryad and I can't came back.

1-2, 1 point


6th round, dark tezz.

1-I have turn 1 ritual, mox ruby, magus, but he fows ritual. I play magus on turn 2, but he has island and plays turn 2 key and quickly finds tinker for the win.

2-I have turn 1 skullclamp, 2xbitterblossom in hand. He opens with island, lotus, mox, 2xconfidant+sensei. He plays tinker for sphinx and cuts my fleshbags.

0-2, 1 point




I think I had bad luck, this deck should have taken 6-9 points in a normal day. Moon effects are devastating, only dark tezz (who opened twice with basic island) and aggro mud (who has 2xmetalworker) could win over magus of the moon and blood moon. Confidants + bitterblossom + thoughtseize were painful for my life counter, but dind't kill me any match (highest cc in the deck is 3). Confidants, gorillas, skullclamps and lavamancers where nice. I couldn't play viashinos because I lacked mana or they didn't show when needed. bitterblossom was always too late, rituals rarely were useful, simians were more useful beating than giving strong starts...

Sideboard was utterly crap, REBs didn't show when they need, lightnings only shown up after cotv at 1, and relics were stupid when opponent played chain+cabal on match 2 and claim on match 3.



That was not a good result with the deck, but I enjoyed a nice tournament nevertheless :p



(*) TMLA: The mountains loses again. And again. And again. And...
Logged
Troy_Costisick
Full Members
Basic User
***
Posts: 1804


View Profile WWW Email
« Reply #19 on: October 25, 2010, 08:05:13 am »

4 magus of the moon
4 dark confidant
4 simian spirit guide
3 gorilla shaman
3 grim lavamancer
2 viashino heretic
2 fleshbag marauder
1 throat slitter

4 dark ritual
4 thoughtseize
3 bitterblossom
1 duress
1 demonic tutor
2 blood moon

3 skullclamp
1 mox jet
1 mox ruby
1 sol ring

4 ancient tomb
4 badlands
2 bloodstained mire
3 polluted delta
3 swamp

sideboard
2 lightning bolt
2 fleshbag marauder
2 pyrokinesis
1 shattering spree
3 relic of progenitus
2 reb
2 pyroblast
1 pithing needle

Excellent analisys! Smile

Xouman, I think your deck exactly highlights the problems of trying to squeeze another color into TMWA.  For the very reasons you suggest at the end of your analysis, your deck didn't perform.  While the card advantage and flexibility of other colors is aluring, I think they weaken the overall premise of this deck:

-Stable Mana Base
-Consistent Diruption
-Silver Bullets

Confidant, Blossom, and Seize are all great cards...in other decks.  Right now (October 25, 2010) I feel that TMWA should be mono-red and that's good enough to compete.  Splashing black or green takes you towards another deck archetype entirely and doesn't mesh well with mono-red's strengths.

Thanks so much for the report, though! Smile

Peace,

-Troy
Logged

madmanmike25
Basic User
**
Posts: 719


Lord Humungus, Ruler of the Wasteland


View Profile
« Reply #20 on: October 25, 2010, 09:53:36 am »

Quote
I feel that TMWA should be mono-red
It's funny that the original TMWA was red and white and contained zero copies of Magus or Bloodmoon.  It also ran zero SSG.  It did however run STP and Disenchants to deal with Oath and Tinker.  

I think people try to 'live the dream' a bit too much and think they will frequently get turn 1 Magus or Moon....and never have it countered.  Or thoughtseized away.  I don't like the idea of a deck that might have SSG as their only source of red mana in hand.

Adding a 2nd color can give the deck so much more versatility.  A two color list has to be build properly and I hate to say this but I really don't like the look of xoumans list.  There is not one single mountain in his TMWA?  It looks like a merging of sui-black and TMWA that was forced together.

EDIT: Just wanted to clarify that the deck did well before the printing of some of the aforementioned cards.
« Last Edit: October 25, 2010, 09:57:10 am by madmanmike25 » Logged

Team Lowlander:  There can be only a few...

The dead know only one thing: it is better to be alive.
xouman
Basic User
**
Posts: 1082


View Profile Email
« Reply #21 on: October 25, 2010, 03:01:27 pm »

Magus of the moon/blood moon was the main plan, but of course it's normal to have it countered, fire//ice'd or thoughtseized. Well, maybe it's not really normal to have it seized twice in a round by turn one, but it's also not common to have it online both times.

I don't regret playing two colors at all :/ 13 black mana sources (5 fetches, 1 jet, 4 badlands, 3 swamps) and 14 red mana sources (5 fetches, 1 ruby, 4 badlands, 4 simian, plus lots of red lands after moon effects) proved to be quite stable. I had lots of mulligans (3 times 5 cards, 4 times 6 cards, more or less), but they were because I draw 1 or 0 mana sources or 5 mana sources (not counting simians), I wasn't really lucky with that.

I think black was really needed. Duress/thoughtseizes and Confidants were really nice, in order to have a nice turn 2 and then some gas.I would play them again. Fleshbag marauder was really interesting, great against gush (with driads, trygons and sphinx) Probably I won't play dark rituals or bitterblossoms: rituals came to me in the worst ways possible, I could only play them 2 times when needed (the game I won against AggroMUD I draw 4 rituals...). Bitterblossom was never useful, only a couple of faeries chumpblocked sphinx for two stupid turns.

Skullclamp was bad, only helped in one match, but I don't think null rod would have been better for me: I lost only once by vault, and it was after tinker so I would have to face an sphinx and my opponent held some counters.

Maybe should I have played REBs maindeck? Probably not, 3 opponents didn't play blue at all. Chalices? cotv at one was awful to me, and I maindecked gorillas. I was thinking to play goblin tinkerer or goblin vandal, they would have improved my MUD/stax matches but then they would have little impact in 4 rounds. 2 more blood moons would have been well accepted, as they were quite useful in 5 of the 6 rounds.

White would have been better than black? probably not, swords would have helped but not more than fleshbag marauder any time (in fact I managed nice sinergy with marauder and skullclamped simians). This is the list I would play now probably:


4 magus of the moon
4 dark confidant
4 simian spirit guide
3 gorilla shaman
3 grim lavamancer
3 fleshbag marauder
2 viashino heretic

4 thoughtseize
2 duress
2 unearth
1 demonic tutor
4 blood moon
2 genju of the spires
2 pillage

1 mox jet
1 mox ruby
1 sol ring

4 ancient tomb
4 badlands
2 bloodstained mire
3 polluted delta
3 swamp
1 mountain

sideboard
3 ingot chewer
1 shattering spree
2 pyrokinesis
2 relic of progenitus
2 nihil spellbomb
2 reb
2 pyroblast
1 pithing needle
Logged
Ozymandias
Basic User
**
Posts: 117


View Profile
« Reply #22 on: November 15, 2010, 01:24:29 am »

The Mountains Won(split 1st/2nd) again (for the first time, actually)  at shuffle and cut, in a field of 15. List was as following:

4 Chalice of the Void
4 Null Rod
3 Blood Moon
3 Gathan Raiders
2 Genju of the Spires
3 Gorilla Shaman
2 Grim Lavamancer
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Magus of the Moon
3 Mogg Fanatic
4 Pyroblast
4 Simian Spirit Guide
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Ruby

Lands (18):
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
7 Mountain
1 Scalding Tarn
1 Wooded Foothills
1 Arid Mesa

Sideboard (15 cards):
 
4 Leyline of Sanctity
4 Relic of Progenitus
3 Pyrokinesis
3 Pulverize
1 Red Elemental Blast

R1 vs. Oath: I lose the roll. He opens on land, mox oath. I decide I can still win this and t1 Genju, followed by t2 tomb swing. Over the next three turns he manages to raw-dog assemble Vault-Key before Genju kills him, and has a force for my desperation Shaman.
Board: -3 Fanatic, -2 Lavamancer, +1 REB, +4 Leyline of Sanctity.
G2: My notes just say "Gray Ogre beats." I seem to recall starting off with a null rod on a mull to 5, followed by a Magus of the Moon, a turn later, followed by chalice 2 two turns later, and eventually a mox monkey joins the party
G3: I start with a Leyline in play, pyroblast his ancestral when he tries to end-step me, and end up getting there off another Magus of the Moon and a motley crew of other beaters.

R2 vs. Dredge: I win the roll, see his dredge off his serum powder, merrily drop a magus of the moon off SSG+Ancient Tomb, and then he just scoops, despite having 7 cards in hand. Well, I'm not going to quibble.
SB: +1 Pyroblast+3 Pyrokinesis+4 Relic of Progenitus, -4 Null Rod -4 Chalice of the Void
G2 he opens on a bazaar, and strips my mull to 6 of my moon effect with unmask. Luckily, he doesn't have a Dredger. Well, shit. Might as well try to race/pray. I drop a Gathan Raiders morphed off SSG+City, and he draws, without activating Bazaar in his upkeep. Then he draws with Bazaar and discards a dredger. I decide to keep racing, drop an SSG off a Mountain, and swing. He does the same dumb thing, not activating bazaar in his upkeep, and only using it to dump his troll in. Okay, not going to quibble. I have another Raiders t3 off a second City. He finally hits an extra dredger, but only a thug, and so now I am facing a stacked graveyard that thankfully has no therapies, but an Ichorid, DRs, and 3 bridges. I do the "One time, rip Relic" mini-prayer, and sure enough I blow him out with a relic and beats. Nice. Life.

R3 vs. Cobra Jace. I lead off with t1 magus off Mox and City. He has no response. Grey Ogres eat him soon thereafter.
SB: -1 Fanatic (Did not see Cobra) +1 REB
G2: I open on another Magus, but this time he manages to raw-dog assemble Vault-Key with the help of Tinker a turn before I can lethal him.
G3: This one goes back and forth. I have t1 genju+ chalice 0 and t2 swing, but no moon or Rod. However, he has no action. I make a bad play and run my genju into his bob, not realizing I will lose my city when I play another mountain. Anyway, I am strapped for mana the rest of the game, and despite getting a jace entirely by lavamancer bouncing+fanatic, I lose soon thereafter to Vault-Key, and bob not turning over lethal in time. I should have just played the lavamancer with the genju land and let him have the extra card.

It's at this point when I am getting ready to play for the t4 that we learn there is a t8. Okay then. Mise well draw the next round. Which I do.

Quarterfinals v. Stax I lose the roll. He opens on Steel hellkite. I don't rawdog the double bolt I need to kill it and die on his 5th turn.
SB:-4 Pyroblast -2 Mogg Fanatic +3 Pulverize +3 Pyrokinesis
G2: I mull to 5 and open on mountain mox null rod. It hurts him more than it hurts me, and I manage to take it down once I draw out of the mana stall and moon him out of the game.
G3. He opens on shop sphere bomb thorn. I open on land mox go. The he has a chalice 2 and takes out my mox. Luckily, I get a tomb, and am able to take out a metalworker and 2 Golems with bolts and pyrokinesis. Eventually, I draw enough lands to lock him under his own sphere with Moon,  and put a serious hurt on him with Genju, and he never finds a Hellkite to Hellp him.

Semi-finals vs. Oath. I win the roll, but I don't know it's oath, so I keep a hand that lacks disruption but swings for 9 turn 2 with Raiders and Genju and 11 the next. Unfortunately, he has a t1 oath and I get owned.
SB:-2 Lavamancer -3 Fanatic +1 REB, +4 Leyline of Sanctity
G2: I drop a t1 rod which sticks, a t2 Blood Moon which gets pierced, and a t3 chalice at 2 which sticks. Genju and grey ogres mop it up when he can't find any action.
g3: I keep a hand with Double SSG and pyroblast and Null Rod, and draw a t1 tomb to cast it with pyroblast backup. he mulls to 5. I play it safe until turn 4, when I tap out for double Spirit Guide. I keep R open for the rest of the game, very happily never encountering Oath. Monkeys eventually eat him.

I split in the finals a smidge unevenly, but what the hey, I wanted two jace and I still got way ahead.

Props: Ben Perry for splitting and making the car ride over to S&C awesome
         Troy Costisick for helping me fine-tune my original list
         Magus of the Moon for being awesome against the whole format.
         Simian Spirit Guide for beating for two.
Slops: The field being too small to qualify for the Myriad Games TMWA bounty. More people should come out to get beaten by 2/2s. Wink
« Last Edit: November 15, 2010, 11:07:12 am by Ozymandias » Logged
Daenyth
Adepts
Basic User
****
Posts: 432


shadowblack379
View Profile
« Reply #23 on: November 15, 2010, 12:02:52 pm »

Nice win, and a great report! What would you change about your list after playing at that tournament?
Logged

Team #olddrafts4you -- losing games since 2004
Ozymandias
Basic User
**
Posts: 117


View Profile
« Reply #24 on: November 15, 2010, 12:20:17 pm »

In my opinion, the deck is fairly well positioned. Your manabase hate is pretty good against the format, especially against MUD and U.dec, Moons and Fanatics give you a very winnable G1 Dredge matchup, you can slaughter fish with bolts and and cheap fat and Lavamancers, and you can oftentimes slow combo enough to clock them. The only real chink in the deck's armor is that you have 0 MD ways to answer a Tinker-bot, and your sideboard Pulverizes are a desperation measure at best. I considered stuff like Heretic and Shattering Spree, but given that both sphinx and inkwell are untargetable by mono-red, I've sort of decided it's best to focus on the things I can't change, and impede my opp's mana development/save my blasts for tinker. In general, I would only pyroblast tinker, jace, tezz, trygon, or t1 ancestral--or, if I had the mana, a FoW on a crippling Moon effect.
Logged
Troy_Costisick
Full Members
Basic User
***
Posts: 1804


View Profile WWW Email
« Reply #25 on: November 23, 2010, 05:58:04 am »

Congrats on your finish, Ozy!  I'm not sure Red will ever get a good answer to Tinker, or at least, it won't get any better answers than it already has.  It looks like your deck is well positioned in the current meta for those of us who enjoy rogue strategies.  I'm really impressed with your skillful plays that you recounted in your play report.  I can tell you've become very comfortable with the deck.  Good luck in your future tourneys!

Peace,

-Troy
Logged

serracollector
Basic User
**
Posts: 1359

serracollector@hotmail.com
View Profile Email
« Reply #26 on: November 25, 2010, 09:46:42 pm »

For the builds with 3-4 Gathan Raiders, have you ever considered 3-4 blistering firecat?  It also morphs, then can flip for 2 red to do 7, and has trample.  True its a 1 shot kill, but, I think it deserves a spot over Genju spires.  It confuses enemies as to whether they are taking 5 or 7 damage next turn, and it can be morphed almost as easily as the Gathan Raiders.  This would also help quicken the pace a lil built, but still leave the deck as a "controL' deck.  Thoughts?
Logged

B/R discussions are not allowed outside of Vintage Issues, and that includes signatures.
TopSecret
Full Members
Basic User
***
Posts: 864


View Profile
« Reply #27 on: November 26, 2010, 01:40:33 pm »

For the builds with 3-4 Gathan Raiders, have you ever considered 3-4 blistering firecat?

My initial thought is that Firecat isn't good because it can't kill someone at a high life total as fast as Raiders or Genju. It's also a lot worse versus decks with creatures. After a certain point in the game, you'll probably need to just kill the opponent and Firecat doesn't do that well when not backed up by a lot of additional damage.
Logged

Ball and Chain
policehq
I voted for Smmenen!
Basic User
**
Posts: 820

p0licehq
View Profile WWW
« Reply #28 on: November 26, 2010, 07:25:38 pm »

Back in the Golden Age (2007-2008) I used to play a fun little rogue deck called "The Mountains Win Again."  You can find an exhaustive thread about that deck here:  http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=35901.0
This strikes me as unnecessary and irrelevant to the discussion.

The Mountains Win Again did well against Gush decks during this time until Oath started using Gush with Tidespout Tyrant. At that time, some people played Disenchant Kami and/or Ronom Unicorn, but still the deck couldn't compete. Oath isn't necessarily en vogue today, but no restrictions or cardpool changes have taken place to prevent it from becoming a popular deck, at which time TMWA is pushed out of playability again.
Logged
overseer1234
Basic User
**
Posts: 89


View Profile
« Reply #29 on: November 27, 2010, 12:42:03 pm »

Back in the Golden Age (2007-2008) I used to play a fun little rogue deck called "The Mountains Win Again."  You can find an exhaustive thread about that deck here:  http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=35901.0
This strikes me as unnecessary and irrelevant to the discussion.

The Mountains Win Again did well against Gush decks during this time until Oath started using Gush with Tidespout Tyrant. At that time, some people played Disenchant Kami and/or Ronom Unicorn, but still the deck couldn't compete. Oath isn't necessarily en vogue today, but no restrictions or cardpool changes have taken place to prevent it from becoming a popular deck, at which time TMWA is pushed out of playability again.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but Oath has become a pretty bad choice since most drain decks started packing trygon and jace main deck, thus actually having better engines and disruption (and while beating) while taking in a lot less slots + getting a more stable manabase (more basics).

This results in oath being almost totally replaced by tezz decks.

And tezz is something we can fight pretty good with red decks (short of inkwel and sphinx)
Logged
Pages: [1] 2 3 ... 9
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.21 | SMF © 2015, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.135 seconds with 20 queries.